Undiagnosed Anxiety Worsens Depression Patients with depression should also be screened for anxiety disorders, say experts. Dr. Naomi M. Simon, associate director of the Center for Anxiety and Traumatic Stress Disorders at Massachusetts General Hospital, Boston. reported on comorbid anxiety and depression at the annual conference of the Anxiety Disorders Association of America. Anxiety disorder comorbidity is common and can result in "longer depressive episodes, a more chronic course of major depressive disorder, worse psychosocial impairment, reduced chance of recovery from the initial episode of major depressive disorder, and an increased risk of suicide,

[ Much of this would probably also apply if the stress was due to   an anxiety disorder. ]

Memory fails you after severe stress People are woefully bad at recalling details of their own traumatic experiences. When military personnel were subjected to threatening behaviour during mock interrogations, most failed to identify the questioner a day or so later, and many even got the gender wrong. The finding casts serious doubt on the reliability of victim testimonies in cases involving psychological trauma. Numerous studies have questioned the accuracy of recall of traumatic events, but the research is often dismissed as artificial and not intense enough to simulate real-life trauma. Other studies have suggested that intense, personal experiences might produce near photographic recollection, something that prosecutors and juries in legal cases often assume. But some researchers think this is an illusion. "People come away from these experiences feeling they will never forget what happened," says Gary Wells, an expert on eyewitness testimony at Iowa State University in Ames, "but they confuse that with thinking they remember the details." Now Andy Morgan at Yale University and his colleagues have evidence from truly stressful situations. They studied over 500 soldiers, sailors and pilots at "survival schools" – three mock POW camps run by the US military, who partly funded the study. The subjects, whose mean age was 25, were being trained to withstand the mental and physical stresses of capture. Thumping heart After 48 hours without food or sleep, they were subjected to intense interrogation. Half of the subjects were physically threatened, and this caused them to show all the signs of intense physiological stress – very high heart rate and levels of adrenalin and cortisol, combined with plummeting sex hormones. Twenty-four hours after release from the camp, the subjects were asked to identify their interrogators. Some of them were shown a live line-up of 15 people, others were shown a photo-spread, and a third group was shown single photos sequentially. Using a scale of 1 to 10, participants were asked to say how confident they were that they had chosen the right person. Most of the mock interrogators appeared or were pictured dressed in standard military garb, but some were shown dressed exactly as they had been during the questioning. The performance of all groups was abysmal. Only 30 per cent could find the right person in a line-up, 34 per cent from a photo-spread and 49 per cent from sequential photos – though the clothing cue boosted correct identification to 66 per cent. Thirty people got the gender wrong, and those subjected to physical threats were the worst at recognising their interrogator. Elizabeth Loftus, a psychologist at the University of California at Irvine, says the study is unique because the stresses were intense and real. "I think people will pay attention to this," she adds. Wells agrees: "What it illustrates is that stress does not help memory." Journal reference: International Journal of Law and Psychiatry (vol 27, p 265) Alison Motluk — The charter is available at:

HOWEDY Phyllis,

I have a four year old lab mix dog.  Shadow has never been a dog to dig outside but he does have access into the house via doggie door. For some reason Shadow will find a spot in the living room and start digging at the carpet like he’s digging a hole!

SHOWENDS like an anxiHOWESNESS behavior problem, an OCD. Like this: "I posted this to rec.pets.dogs.health without too much success. Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV" THAT’S AN OCD. His owner CAUSED IT by MISHANDLING and ABUSING his dog according to the BEST advice of HOWER Gang Of Lying Dog Abusing Punk Thug Cowards And ACTIVE LONG TERM INCURABLE MENTAL CASES and ASYLUM ESCAPEES.  He started this in our old house and he would only dig near or in the same spot in one room of the house.  I was always having to vacuum strands because it was sort of a loopy carpet and after a dig there were always lots of loose strands.

You can break that behavior NEARLY INSTANTLY if you know HOWE. I’m surprised he never broke deeper down to the padding.

That’ll come. We recently moved to a new house.  I was hoping whatever he was going for in the older house was not a problem in the new one.

The digging is an anxiHOWESNESS behavior problem. All behavior problmes are caused by mishandling. Wrong, he’s now picked a spot here and goes at it.

Right. Just breaking the digging won’t solve the underlying CAUSE of the behavior. THAT’S HOWE COME it’s imperative to do all the exercises in your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual and ASK The Amazing Puppy Wizard if you need any additional FREE heelp. I always fuss at him to stop digging

Right. That’ll INCREASE anxiHOWESNESS and reinforce the problem. to let him know its wrong

Dogs is DUMB ANIMALS. They don’t know right from wrong. Trying to tell a dog "NO!" is criminally insane. The Amazing Puppy Wizard has PROVEN that. but is there something else I can do?

INDEEDY. TIA

You won’t be gettin no advice from HOWER dog lovers… Phyllis

Cure OCD Behaviors NEARLY INSTANTLY Using PRAISE: "OCD Success In One Day," Puzzle. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Bad Dogs May Be Sad Dogs Researcher studying canine compulsive disorder MONDAY, Oct. 28 (HealthScoutNews) – – Is your dog bad to the bone? It could be he has a condition called canine compulsive disorder. It can cause unexplainable, repetitive behaviors such as tail chasing, snapping at the air, excessive licking, chewing with an empty mouth, and monotonous barking without any change in volume or intonation. About 2 percent of dogs have canine compulsive disorder, says Andrew Luescher, the director of Purdue University’s Animal Behavior Clinic. The disorder can be so severe that it affects the dog’s daily living. For example, he says, one dogwas so distracted by its own shadow that it stopped drinking water.

It’s much higher than our good doctor supposes. It’ll be another fifteen years before the scientists understand the full ramifications of stress on behavior and health. "Things are beginning to get much worse day by day and the vets seem unable to help. http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusMed.WMV http://www.oofus.com/pix/PoorRufusSmall.WMV" THAT’S an OCD. It’s similar to what professor SCRUFF SHAKE’S little dog Maxie The Magnificent FuriHOWESLY Obsessive Compulsive Masturbator does when he misses his daily five miles of bicycle chasing exercise to control his HYPERACTIVITY. Strange behaviors caused by the disorder are often misdiagnosed as neurological problems.

Yeah. Like janet boss’s declawed kat attacking her every time she punishes her dogs. The NEUROLOGIST is treating her "seizure" activity with valium. The longer the behaviors are allowed to continue, the more difficult treatment can be, Luescher says.

NO. The "problem" is caused by mishandling. Stop mishandling the dog and use the non force non confrontational scientific and psychological techniques taught in your FREE copy of my FREE Wits’ End Dog Training Method manual and you’ll break any behavior problem in a few minutes over a couple of days, maybe less. Maybe INSTANTLY. HOWEDY People, Here’s an account of a dog who’d been involved in a traumatic HOWES invasion and is now Ooops! WAS barking uncontrollably. I’m countin on 100% success in two days. Care to stake your life, career, and reputation that I won’t cure this OCD behavior BEFORE three days are up??? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– To: Jerry Howe Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2002 Dear Jerry, have had a really good read of your manual and have started a few of your suggestions already- and yes!! success in one day Crash has ALWAYS stolen things for attention: socks, jocks, pens, soft toys you want it and she’s got it yet to day using your distract/ praise method we actually made some progress in the sock nicking dept. I have to say she is generally v. well behaved , but your suggestion to praise her very time she looks at us is going down a treat, she is v. ppl orientated anyway and she’s had a constant stream of good/clever/beautiful girls coming in her direction -the instant result of which she has not once harassed the cats today (a sure fire way to get attention, she doesn’t hurt them, just annoys the shit out of them until they get up and move or scratch her) however, she still is barking at little things.

Praise her. We have never ignored her when she barks (ever since she was tiny) we always get up and check what she’s barking at tell her "good girl" and then "that’s enough" (her release command). she always stops when I say "enough" but my problem is that

NOPE. That’s the problem! YOU GOT TO SAY IT EVERY TIME, or it don’t work…. Is THAT training? NOPE… Training is supposed to control the behavior automatically, as you like it. Too much, too little, no problem. Just train the pup to respond as you’d prefer. You’d prefer her not to bark, follow the technique and there’ll be no more barking. But telling her to STOP, is only perpetuating your NEEDING to tell her "enough." Don’t improvise on the technique, because "just telling her ENOUGH" is NOT in the method, and WILL cause anxiety about the situation and put you at odds with your pup. Use distraction and praise till the behavior is extinguished instead of stopping the behavior by forced control, i.e., "enough." Even though you’re not saying it in a scolding way, you’re still arguing with your dog. since that guy was stalking me she barks at the tiniest sound,

Praise first, tell her it’s O.K., and then interrupt further barking with distraction and praise, calling her as a default should the distraction / praise fail, and then RELEASE her to attempt another bark if that’s her desire, so you may break that attempt using distract/praise till the behavior is properly extinguished. That way you can train her to only bark enough to alert you when something disturbs her. Then you can train her to not bark at all but to come get you to say there’s sumpthin up… the neighbors across the street coming home,

Praise first, then tell her it’s friends, more praise, next bark distract / praise and LET HER WORK THROUGH the problem till it’s extinguished and then generalize it in other areas. When she looks like she’s about to bark but hasn’t YET, PRAISE THAT and prepare to interrupt her next bark following the VARIABLE distraction and praise technique. the cat in the kitty litter,

EZ. Same same. Every thing is same same. If you can’t envision the sameness of a problem, give me a holler and we’ll look at it from every angle till we see HOWE’S best to deal with it. You’re better off to momentarily avoid or even ignore a problem RATHER than jump into an issue you’re not prepared to PROPERLY EXTINGUISH. That’s HOWE bad habits and OCD’s are caused. Like this one. some one walking on the other side of the street,

Relax. You’re walkin down your own street, every thing is O.K. friends and you’re not going to pull back on her lead to force control, you’ll continue as you desire and simply interrupt any inappropriate action or thought with distract/praise for 5-15 seconds. she only reacts like this when I’m in bed

No problem. The OBJECTIVE of training is to have the behaviors you desire and extinguish those you don’t. The techniques will break the behaviors as best they can, but some behaviors are going to always be restimulated by the outside sounds or the kat trying to get her goat. Just follow the routine and every behavior will come into control as she learns to not need to respond to every sound and every temptation the kat offers. Should take a couple of days. so it means I’m getting woken any where between 2 and 5 times a night.

Not for long. So long as you don’t get frustrated and holler SHUDDUP! That’ll cause her anxiety and you’re back in the jackpot again. Follow the technique and in one or two nites you should be cuttin Zzzzz’s right through. But that may require a couple nites for you to make a sound distraction and praise, and then if she barks again, you’ll probably need to SILENTLY get up and go to where you’re able to present the sound distraction from opposite of that of the last one from your bed. If you’re in a small bedroom you might be able to snap your fingers on one side of the bed and then the other, depending on the layout. Like say the window is at the foot of the bed and you dog is at your feet standing there 12′ away. You might be able to reach over and snap your fingers from alternate sides of the bed and be all set. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -i’ve tried letting her sleep in the bed room,

… read more »

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HOWEDY Phyllis,

For some reason Shadow will find a spot in the living room and start digging at the carpet like he’s digging a hole!

"Just Want To Second Jerry’s Method For Dealing With This (Destructive Separation Anxiety). I’ve Suggested It To Quite A Few Clients Now And It’s Worked ‘EVERY TIME The Very First Time’ – marilyn, Trainer, 33 Years Experience. "His Amazing Progress Almost Makes Me Cry. Your Method Takes Positive Training To The Next Level And Should Really Be Used By All Trainers Who Call Themselves Trainers. Thank You For Helping Me Save His Life," Kay Pierce, Professional Trainer, 30 Years Experience. Here’s HOWE The Amazing Puppy Wizard teaches HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students to train their critters NEARLY INSTANTLY: "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior Never Change, Or They’d Not Be Scientific And Would Not Obtain Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results For All Handler’s And All Dogs, As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual." Disciple Paulie Writes: I’ve never forced my dogs to do anything, I tell them they are good dogs and they seem to follow me, once I told them they were bad dogs and they ran away from me, now I only ever tell them they are good dogs and they always are, always. Trust your dog, ask it to do your request and say "good dog" sincerely at the end of the request and I bet you’ll find your dog thinking then responding everytime. A bit of respect works wonders, the same rule applies to every aspect of the relationship with your dog. Obedience and affection are not related, if they were everyone would have obedient dogs. Paul.   Disciple Paulie Sez: "No One Understands How Wits End   Training Really Works, They Assume It’s All Nicey Nicey And   don’t Realise It’s A Very Disciplined Method That Deals With   Any Situation And The Foundation Is Built On Trust And   Understanding." Two HOWETA three Pauls PREFER NOT HURTIN DOGS as The Puppy Wizard teaches in HIS FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual. Here’s two Pauls:  Daylight Time  Well, let me tell you, your Wits’ End  Dog Training Method works.  My dog, Dasie, Loves to chase chameleons  around the barbecue on the patio. I  used this system on four different occasions.  When she went out today, she looked  everywhere else but the barbecue.  Amazing, just amazing.   I will write to Amanda about the video.  I am really excited to learn more, and  understand. Maybe just a little reassurance  that I am going about it the right way.  Thanks again  Paul – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – It’s possible to teach a dog not to eat out of a cat bowl without too much difficulty. My dogs don’t touch the food in the cat bowls although Roz licks up any bits that have been dropped around the bowls I used a can with stones in it to create a distraction anytime the dogs tried to eat the cats food, followed with immediate praise. It worked a treat. The cats bowls are down all the time, usually there is food left over but the dogs don’t eat it, even if we go out and leave the dogs with access inside through a dog door. Paul — Obedience and affection are not related, if they were everyone would have obedient dogs. See the dogs, cats, us and pics of NZ etc at my homepage….. http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/paulbousie/index.html Updated regularly (last time 23 Jan 01) so keep coming back!!!

Here’s a couple of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual Students tellin you HOWE they done it EZ GENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY and FOR FREE: schreef inbericht You’ll get ALL the INFORMATION you need in your FREE copy of The Puppy Wizard’s FREE WWW Wits’ End Dog Training Method Manual. You’ll be taught some general exercises to calm and relax your dog and give him the direct attention he NEEDS in only a few minutes every other day, and you’ll learn HOWE to use distraction and praise to EXXXTINGUISH the HABITUAL aspect of this DIS-EASE.

My dog (a 1 year old Yellow Lab) was biting his tail at the root (Vet said his anal gland was blocked, and was causing an itch). After squeezing it, he still wouldn’t stop biting his tail. The vet advised a neck-funnel (don’t know wat you US-guy’s call those) so he couldn’t reach his butt. I hate those things, i think they will drive a dog nuts. I tried the wits end method. (difficult to read such a long textfile if English is not your native language) Luckily this is without all the "HOWE’s" etc.so at least it’s readable for somebody like me. The minute he started to bite i trew my key’s next to him on the floor, and praised him (he stopped biting and looked up when he heard the sound) I did this 7 times, after that the tailbiting completely stopped. Just give the wits end method a try. One of the possible downloadlocations is http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11 – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Both my dogs at some stage have licked a spot somewhere on their bodies and I have always managed to train them to stop. In all cases there was nothing wrong that licking would have helped (Roz has had cut pads, stitches in her belly and skin itrritations, all tempting her to lick), none of their licking has been due to any allergies . When I see the dog licking more than normal I look at the spot to see whats there and decide if a vet appointment is needed or to wait and see, keeping a close eye. To stop the licking I distract the dog and give it some friendly banter, when it starts licking again I repeat, usually after about 4 times the dog stops, for the moment at least, if it starts again then repeat, before long the dog has no more desire to lick that spot at all.

The same thing worked with my lab licking/chewing problem too. He had an itch due to blocked anal glands and started chewing and licking his tail at the root. After the glands were squeezed, and the itch was gone he still wouldn’t stop. (because the place he chewed raw was itching) After some training (roughly the same methode as yours) he stopped. — Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11 www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/ RTFM is age-old computer lingo…. It stands for "Read The F***ing Manual" I used the manual and it works very good! But it is a long text to read (76 pages printed on A4-size paper) My lab is 1year old now, and teaching him something new takes about 30minutes  (depending on what to teach offcourse) My other dog (a 7year old staffordshire terrier-mix) is a bit slower in learning, but he is used to me calling him a "bad dog"whenever he did something i didn’t want him to do, or  it might be the age. Sometimes it looks like Sam (the lab) WANTS to learn something new: he wants me to bring along the can filled with washers whenever we go for a walk. It is a very "humane" way of teaching: the dog is allways a "good dog", and never a "bad dog" There is nu punishment or prong-collars involved. For a fact i tought him to heel in 15min’s without beeing on a leach at-all !!! When he spotted a dog, he used to run towards it, but now i tought him to "ask permission" first, and to my surprise it worked! My dogs never went to puppy-training (lucky for them), maybe this helped too. Manual can be found at http://www.doggydoright.com/id3.html — Hennie van Dalen www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11 www.chello.nl/~h.vandalen11/fotografie/doggy-pictures/

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Jerry, I am forever in your debt. The system you have created for training dogs is absolutely amazing! I can’t wait until the new version is available for human children! Thank you for your service to humanity!

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rita schreef: Good morning, dear Anna.  Remember one day last week our discussion whether anxiety/depression is a mental or a physical condition?   Below is an article complied from wire reports that I found interesting and thought you might too. GENE IS LINKED TO DEPRESSION In the first study to show a direct genetic link between emotional stress and depression, researchers found that people with a certain type of brain chemistry gene were more vulnerable to deep depression after traumatic events such as the death of a family member.   The story, appearing this week in the journal, Science, focused on two forms of the gene called 5-HTT which helps regulate serotonin, a brain chemical.   Researchers found that adults who carried a short form of the gene were more prone to slip into depression after experiencing serious life events than were adults who carried a long form of 5-HTT.  Experts said the study is the first to show a proven direct genetic link between emotionally distressing events and the onset of clinical depression. Thank you for posting Rita. it is interresting that modern studies show the genetical disballance in people with our disorder. much love from Anna It has come through my mother, grandfather, and great-grandfather’s family.  I have a great uncle that committed suicide due to his "issues". My grandfather had a breakdown and had shock treatments. My mother maintains but deals with it. I am worse than her. I guess we have that gene. gt Yep. My advice: sell it on eBay. P.

Wish I could. gt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Rita schreef: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Good morning, dear Anna.  Remember one day last week our discussion whether anxiety/depression is a mental or a physical condition?   Below is an article complied from wire reports that I found interesting and thought you might too. GENE IS LINKED TO DEPRESSION In the first study to show a direct genetic link between emotional stress and depression, researchers found that people with a certain type of brain chemistry gene were more vulnerable to deep depression after traumatic events such as the death of a family member.   The story, appearing this week in the journal, Science, focused on two forms of the gene called 5-HTT which helps regulate serotonin, a brain chemical.   Researchers found that adults who carried a short form of the gene were more prone to slip into depression after experiencing serious life events than were adults who carried a long form of 5-HTT.  Experts said the study is the first to show a proven direct genetic link between emotionally distressing events and the onset of clinical depression.

Thank you for posting Rita. it is interresting that modern studies show the genetical disballance in people with our disorder. much love from Anna — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rita schreef: Good morning, dear Anna.  Remember one day last week our discussion whether anxiety/depression is a mental or a physical condition?   Below is an article complied from wire reports that I found interesting and thought you might too. GENE IS LINKED TO DEPRESSION In the first study to show a direct genetic link between emotional stress and depression, researchers found that people with a certain type of brain chemistry gene were more vulnerable to deep depression after traumatic events such as the death of a family member.   The story, appearing this week in the journal, Science, focused on two forms of the gene called 5-HTT which helps regulate serotonin, a brain chemical.   Researchers found that adults who carried a short form of the gene were more prone to slip into depression after experiencing serious life events than were adults who carried a long form of 5-HTT.  Experts said the study is the first to show a proven direct genetic link between emotionally distressing events and the onset of clinical depression. Thank you for posting Rita. it is interresting that modern studies show the genetical disballance in people with our disorder. much love from Anna It has come through my mother, grandfather, and great-grandfather’s family.  I have a great uncle that committed suicide due to his "issues". My grandfather had a breakdown and had shock treatments. My mother maintains but deals with it. I am worse than her. I guess we have that gene. gt

Yep. My advice: sell it on eBay. P. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rita schreef: Good morning, dear Anna.  Remember one day last week our discussion whether anxiety/depression is a mental or a physical condition?   Below is an article complied from wire reports that I found interesting and thought you might too. GENE IS LINKED TO DEPRESSION In the first study to show a direct genetic link between emotional stress and depression, researchers found that people with a certain type of brain chemistry gene were more vulnerable to deep depression after traumatic events such as the death of a family member.   The story, appearing this week in the journal, Science, focused on two forms of the gene called 5-HTT which helps regulate serotonin, a brain chemical.   Researchers found that adults who carried a short form of the gene were more prone to slip into depression after experiencing serious life events than were adults who carried a long form of 5-HTT.  Experts said the study is the first to show a proven direct genetic link between emotionally distressing events and the onset of clinical depression. Thank you for posting Rita. it is interresting that modern studies show the genetical disballance in people with our disorder. much love from Anna

It has come through my mother, grandfather, and great-grandfather’s family.  I have a great uncle that committed suicide due to his "issues". My grandfather had a breakdown and had shock treatments. My mother maintains but deals with it. I am worse than her. I guess we have that gene. gt — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Good morning, dear Anna.  Remember one day last week our discussion whether anxiety/depression is a mental or a physical condition?   Below is an article complied from wire reports that I found interesting and thought you might too. GENE IS LINKED TO DEPRESSION In the first study to show a direct genetic link between emotional stress and depression, researchers found that people with a certain type of brain chemistry gene were more vulnerable to deep depression after traumatic events such as the death of a family member.   The story, appearing this week in the journal, Science, focused on two forms of the gene called 5-HTT which helps regulate serotonin, a brain chemical.   Researchers found that adults who carried a short form of the gene were more prone to slip into depression after experiencing serious life events than were adults who carried a long form of 5-HTT.  Experts said the study is the first to show a proven direct genetic link between emotionally distressing events and the onset of clinical depression. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Hi, Brooke, You were right on the money "f*ck him".  How arrogant of him to think you should still be at his beck and call after he let you go. I wish you much success in finding another job.  It will happen! smiles, Elise

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys know me… when I get on a roll… I get on a roll, and I’m on one. My ex boss had the NERVE to call me and ask me how to get something done yesterday. I hung up on him. He called back and I told him if he called me again I’d report him for harassment. My phone didn’t ring again. If he wanted any information before he fired me, he should have asked. Fuck him. (pardon my language… I warned you.) I applied for unemployment online yesterday. Ahh, the joys of Florida. You can be lazy enough to apply for unemployment online. Although I did find out that the unemployment office is just 2 minutes up the road from here. Hopefully, filing online will be faster than manually filling out forms and waiting on data entry to input it. Life just sucks. Dad’s already prepared to send money. God, I hate that. There go the feelings of inadequacy and stupidity. It’s like I can’t fend for myself. Not to mention I’ve lost my health benefits, so now I have NO clue how I’m gonna pay for my meds (which with insurance were $80 a month) or my doc appts. One thing after another. I’m gonna drive myself nuts. As soon as I’m done on the computer this morning I’m going to the gym here at the complex to work off some stress. Little brother is being surprisingly supportive. I can’t believe it. At first he was kinda upset (well, I can see why, it’s my paychecks that got us in here.) but thanks to a bunch of HIS friends sticking up for me, he relented and has been wonderful. Cooking, cleaning, making sure things get done while I search for a job. Dad is being dad. Wonderfully supportive over 900 miles of phone line, and 900 miles of roads to get money here. He knows I’ve never been fired before and that this is (his words) "traumatic" for me, and he’s been calling to check on me. Under his advice I’m not telling Mom yet, because I don’t need her destructive criticism. You all know my mom. (The bitch) Well, back to job searching. Gotta re-do the resume again too. Going to Staples to get the nice paper and all that jazz to send out the magnificent resumes that don’t get me much of anywhere. <Fingers crossed Thanks guys. Much Love, Brooke

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Stacy,     No, he’s an idiot. No nerve, just idiocy. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You should have told him you would help him for a consultation fee of 100.00 a call! LOL… He has some nerve! | | I applied for unemployment online yesterday. Ahh, the joys of | Florida. You can be lazy enough to apply for unemployment online. | Although I did find out that the unemployment office is just 2 | minutes up the road from here. Hopefully, filing online will be | faster than manually filling out forms and waiting on data entry to | input it. Life just sucks. Dad’s already prepared to send money. God, | I hate that. There go the feelings of inadequacy and stupidity. It’s | like I can’t fend for myself. Not to mention I’ve lost my health | benefits, so now I have NO clue how I’m gonna pay for my meds (which | with insurance were $80 a month) or my doc appts. One thing after | another. I’m gonna drive myself nuts. As soon as I’m done on the | computer this morning I’m going to the gym here at the complex to | work off some stress. | | Little brother is being surprisingly supportive. I can’t believe it. | At first he was kinda upset (well, I can see why, it’s my paychecks | that got us in here.) but thanks to a bunch of HIS friends sticking | up for me, he relented and has been wonderful. Cooking, cleaning, | making sure things get done while I search for a job. | | Dad is being dad. Wonderfully supportive over 900 miles of phone | line, and 900 miles of roads to get money here. He knows I’ve never | been fired before and that this is (his words) "traumatic" for me, | and he’s been calling to check on me. Under his advice I’m not | telling Mom yet, because I don’t need her destructive criticism. You | all know my mom. (The bitch) | | Well, back to job searching. Gotta re-do the resume again too. Going | to Staples to get the nice paper and all that jazz to send out the | magnificent resumes that don’t get me much of anywhere. <Fingers | crossed | Good luck on the search.. Im sure you will find something better than you had before! Stacy | Thanks guys. | Much Love, | Brooke Thanks!

Much Love, Brooke

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You guys know me… when I get on a roll… I get on a roll, and I’m on one. Well why not?  It is better than crawling under the duvet.

Don’t tempt me. My ex boss had the NERVE to call me and ask me how to get something done yesterday. I hung up on him. He called back and I told him if he called me again I’d report him for harassment. My phone didn’t ring again. If he wanted any information before he fired me, he should have asked. Fuck him. (pardon my language… I warned you.) Well I would do the same in this situation.

It was just flabbergasting. I applied for unemployment online yesterday. Now that is advanced thinking.

Ahh, the joys of Florida. You can be lazy enough to apply for unemployment online. Although I did find out that the unemployment office is just 2 minutes up the road from here. Hopefully, filing online will be faster than manually filling out forms and waiting on data entry to input it. I used to work in a UBO (The social security office for claiming unemployed welfare payments in the UK) and learned to read upside down so I could enter data as people were filling in their forms.  They were surprised that I could sign off so many pages in seconds!

I was like that in retail… having everything done by the time the customer got to the register. Life just sucks. Dad’s already prepared to send money. God, I hate that. There go the feelings of inadequacy and stupidity. It’s like I can’t fend for myself. I understand that feeling.  I hated it when my father offered me financial help.  He hated it when I refused.  I hated it when I just had to accept it.

Hopefully I won’t be borrowing any money from dad. He already was talking about selling his autographs to make some more money to help me and brother out. Then mom was a bitch about the $350 dad said he’d pay to get us in here. She can’t wait another month to see if dad is going to  need to help us with rent in May. <on knees praying that doesn’t happen – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not to mention I’ve lost my health benefits, so now I have NO clue how I’m gonna pay for my meds (which with insurance were $80 a month) or my doc appts. One thing after another. I’m gonna drive myself nuts. As soon as I’m done on the computer this morning I’m going to the gym here at the complex to work off some stress. Little brother is being surprisingly supportive. I can’t believe it. At first he was kinda upset (well, I can see why, it’s my paychecks that got us in here.) but thanks to a bunch of HIS friends sticking up for me, he relented and has been wonderful. Cooking, cleaning, making sure things get done while I search for a job. Dad is being dad. Wonderfully supportive over 900 miles of phone line, and 900 miles of roads to get money here. He knows I’ve never been fired before and that this is (his words) "traumatic" for me, and he’s been calling to check on me. Under his advice I’m not telling Mom yet, because I don’t need her destructive criticism. You all know my mom. (The bitch) I don’t know your mum but I think I may remember some old posts.  I don’t want to second guess my memory.  My own mother has spoken to me twice and has asked that I never speak to her again.  Something that is easy for me to comply with  For the technically minded I guess I met my mother when I was born so that makes three times, but I was not speaking then.

Sorry to hear that. At least I have my mom around, even if she’s a bitch. Well, back to job searching. Gotta re-do the resume again too. Going to Staples to get the nice paper and all that jazz to send out the magnificent resumes that don’t get me much of anywhere. <Fingers crossed I will cross my fingers for you too.  Make sure the Resume is no more than two pages.  When I was recruiting anything more went in the trash. Thanks guys. Much Love, Brooke Love Simon

Thanks, Simon. Much Love, Brooke

Response:

| You guys know me… when I get on a roll… I get on a roll, and I’m | on one. | | My ex boss had the NERVE to call me and ask me how to get something | done yesterday. I hung up on him. He called back and I told him if he | called me again I’d report him for harassment. My phone didn’t ring | again. If he wanted any information before he fired me, he should | have asked. Fuck him. (pardon my language… I warned you.) You should have told him you would help him for a consultation fee of 100.00 a call! LOL… He has some nerve! | | I applied for unemployment online yesterday. Ahh, the joys of | Florida. You can be lazy enough to apply for unemployment online. | Although I did find out that the unemployment office is just 2 | minutes up the road from here. Hopefully, filing online will be | faster than manually filling out forms and waiting on data entry to | input it. Life just sucks. Dad’s already prepared to send money. God, | I hate that. There go the feelings of inadequacy and stupidity. It’s | like I can’t fend for myself. Not to mention I’ve lost my health | benefits, so now I have NO clue how I’m gonna pay for my meds (which | with insurance were $80 a month) or my doc appts. One thing after | another. I’m gonna drive myself nuts. As soon as I’m done on the | computer this morning I’m going to the gym here at the complex to | work off some stress. | | Little brother is being surprisingly supportive. I can’t believe it. | At first he was kinda upset (well, I can see why, it’s my paychecks | that got us in here.) but thanks to a bunch of HIS friends sticking | up for me, he relented and has been wonderful. Cooking, cleaning, | making sure things get done while I search for a job. | | Dad is being dad. Wonderfully supportive over 900 miles of phone | line, and 900 miles of roads to get money here. He knows I’ve never | been fired before and that this is (his words) "traumatic" for me, | and he’s been calling to check on me. Under his advice I’m not | telling Mom yet, because I don’t need her destructive criticism. You | all know my mom. (The bitch) | | Well, back to job searching. Gotta re-do the resume again too. Going | to Staples to get the nice paper and all that jazz to send out the | magnificent resumes that don’t get me much of anywhere. <Fingers | crossed | Good luck on the search.. Im sure you will find something better than you had before! Stacy | Thanks guys. | Much Love, | Brooke

Response:

You guys know me… when I get on a roll… I get on a roll, and I’m on one. My ex boss had the NERVE to call me and ask me how to get something done yesterday. I hung up on him. He called back and I told him if he called me again I’d report him for harassment. My phone didn’t ring again. If he wanted any information before he fired me, he should have asked. Fuck him. (pardon my language… I warned you.) I applied for unemployment online yesterday. Ahh, the joys of Florida. You can be lazy enough to apply for unemployment online. Although I did find out that the unemployment office is just 2 minutes up the road from here. Hopefully, filing online will be faster than manually filling out forms and waiting on data entry to input it. Life just sucks. Dad’s already prepared to send money. God, I hate that. There go the feelings of inadequacy and stupidity. It’s like I can’t fend for myself. Not to mention I’ve lost my health benefits, so now I have NO clue how I’m gonna pay for my meds (which with insurance were $80 a month) or my doc appts. One thing after another. I’m gonna drive myself nuts. As soon as I’m done on the computer this morning I’m going to the gym here at the complex to work off some stress. Little brother is being surprisingly supportive. I can’t believe it. At first he was kinda upset (well, I can see why, it’s my paychecks that got us in here.) but thanks to a bunch of HIS friends sticking up for me, he relented and has been wonderful. Cooking, cleaning, making sure things get done while I search for a job. Dad is being dad. Wonderfully supportive over 900 miles of phone line, and 900 miles of roads to get money here. He knows I’ve never been fired before and that this is (his words) "traumatic" for me, and he’s been calling to check on me. Under his advice I’m not telling Mom yet, because I don’t need her destructive criticism. You all know my mom. (The bitch) Well, back to job searching. Gotta re-do the resume again too. Going to Staples to get the nice paper and all that jazz to send out the magnificent resumes that don’t get me much of anywhere. <Fingers crossed Thanks guys. Much Love, Brooke

Response:

Brooke, I realize you don’t know me, but I’ve had quite a bit of experience re. discrimination for an anxiety disorder while I was working. Because of what I’ve learned, I thought I’d pass along some information that may or may not be of use to you.  I hope it is. American law gives business enterprises wide leeway in their actions with employees.  Obviously some things are completely off limits such as discrimination and harassment, but usually an employer can fire people at will.  That said, if at any time you told your employer that you have an anxiety disorder and/or are being medicated for a disorder, discrimination would become a definite possibility – and a reason for her getting your job back.  (BTW, if the fainting was related to your anxiety disorder, that too would fall under discrimination.)   If during the first warning that I think you alluded to, however, you didn’t bring up your medical situation, you may have to overcome that obstacle.  This isn’t as big a deal as it sounds, though.  It’s normal for people in business, who have anxiety disorders, to hide them for fear of retribution.  So making an after the fact case is still viable. Continuing with this last thought, i.e., assuming you can do the essential work, but that your performance (or lack of it) was due to the anxiety disorder and/or the meds you take, you may be able to get your job back plus backpay and a virtual guarantee that this will never happen again.  Even receiving punitive damage $ is a possibility if you want to push the discharge to its fullest extent.   Best thing to do, IMO, is for you to recall as well as you can any significant events that have occurred since being hired and write them down in chronological  order.  Examples:  Assignments or projects considered well handled, praise (especially in writing), performance appraisals, any indication on your part that you have a disorder or are being medicated, any discriminatory events, etc.  Then make an appt. with an attorney who specializes in labor law (if possible, but any good attorney can handle this), ask for a consultation appt. re. a possible discrimination based discharge, and take the outline to the attorney when you actually see him/her.  You’ll also be discussing your firing, be asked questions, etc. Usually the introductory appt. is free and a decent attorney will tell someone if they have a case that has a chance of being won.  Fees are also negotiable to some degree.  Just as an fyi, the legal system for labor law allows employees to file charges and represent themselves. (These things rarely go to court, btw.)  However, the law is so complex, I still recommend an attorney versus going it alone.  Your main legal basis for re-employment will probably be based on the Americans With Disabilities ACT and/or labor law having to do with fair employment and equal opportunity. The most important factor in this situation is whether you could do the work required with or without accommodation. Please don’t get upset with the following few sentences.  If you had a job that was beyond your abilities, or if you didn’t make the effort, there is no case.  You did seem to indicate that your boss spoke to you previously about your work, but I don’t know any of the details.   Having said that, from what I read in earlier posts of yours on this subject, you also indicated that you bent over backwards to perform your job well, so this may not be an issue.  In fact, the "warning" or whatever could be construed as another example of discrimination. Accommodation for a disability does have to be requested, but it can still come into play in an after the fact firing situation.  Also, accommodation can consist of virtually anything you can think of that would help you do the job as long as the cost is reasonable to your ex employer – being allowed to work at home, work-arounds for whatever you consider difficult situations that could become tolerable if you had some help or support, etc.  are examples of accommodation. Again, and I can’t stress this enough, the basic premise is that the essentials of the job have to be performed with or without accommodation. There is at least one caveat (and probably others that an attorney would know of).  If your medication requirements are so high that you can’t do the essential work with or without accommodation, that fact could also preclude your getting your job back.  There’s an exception here too though.  If accommodations enabled you to manage your anxiety better so that meds don’t become an issue, the case would still be valid. A couple of parting comments.  I’ve been thru a similar situation (not being fired, but being discriminated against for my job performance and ultimately getting accommodations) and I had to go the legal route to get justice.  If you want to email me for further information about how to proceed or to see what kind of accommodations I received, or for anything else relating to your job situation, please don’t hesitate.  Best wishes. Doug D. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You guys know me… when I get on a roll… I get on a roll, and I’m on one. My ex boss had the NERVE to call me and ask me how to get something done yesterday. I hung up on him. He called back and I told him if he called me again I’d report him for harassment. My phone didn’t ring again. If he wanted any information before he fired me, he should have asked. Fuck him. (pardon my language… I warned you.) I applied for unemployment online yesterday. Ahh, the joys of Florida. You can be lazy enough to apply for unemployment online. Although I did find out that the unemployment office is just 2 minutes up the road from here. Hopefully, filing online will be faster than manually filling out forms and waiting on data entry to input it. Life just sucks. Dad’s already prepared to send money. God, I hate that. There go the feelings of inadequacy and stupidity. It’s like I can’t fend for myself. Not to mention I’ve lost my health benefits, so now I have NO clue how I’m gonna pay for my meds (which with insurance were $80 a month) or my doc appts. One thing after another. I’m gonna drive myself nuts. As soon as I’m done on the computer this morning I’m going to the gym here at the complex to work off some stress. Little brother is being surprisingly supportive. I can’t believe it. At first he was kinda upset (well, I can see why, it’s my paychecks that got us in here.) but thanks to a bunch of HIS friends sticking up for me, he relented and has been wonderful. Cooking, cleaning, making sure things get done while I search for a job. Dad is being dad. Wonderfully supportive over 900 miles of phone line, and 900 miles of roads to get money here. He knows I’ve never been fired before and that this is (his words) "traumatic" for me, and he’s been calling to check on me. Under his advice I’m not telling Mom yet, because I don’t need her destructive criticism. You all know my mom. (The bitch) Well, back to job searching. Gotta re-do the resume again too. Going to Staples to get the nice paper and all that jazz to send out the magnificent resumes that don’t get me much of anywhere. <Fingers crossed Thanks guys. Much Love, Brooke

Response:

Doug D.     Thank you very much for the information.I knew there were some laws that I may be able to use, but not sure. My dad said to investigate it, but to find another job too. Even if they had to offer me my job back, I wouldn’t take it. My therapist said she would look into it as well, and since both my therapist and pdoc are allowed to talk to each other, they’ll see what they can come up with.     Now I’m going to reply and snip to your message below. I realize you don’t know me, but I’ve had quite a bit of experience re. discrimination for an anxiety disorder while I was working. Because of what I’ve learned, I thought I’d pass along some information that may or may not be of use to you.  I hope it is.

It’s okay that I don’t know you. As long as you’re supportive (and you seem very much to be) I won’t put you on the block list. That said, if at any time you told your employer that you have an anxiety disorder and/or are being medicated for a disorder, discrimination would become a definite possibility – and a reason for her getting your job back.  (BTW, if the fainting was related to your anxiety disorder, that too would fall under discrimination.)

The fainting episode in brief: I had a migraine for two days, under a great amount of stress planning the biggest party the newspaper had, was standing in my boss’ office briefing him on what was going on and where we were, then bam, on the floor. The receptionist knew I was on medication and grabbed my purse and ran to the business manager/HR person. The EMTs were called and my boss nor the business manager left me alone with the EMTs. Of course, I had to rattle off the usual, and my boss started staring at me. I was forced to go to the ER, refused treatment, and went back to the office. (January 2003) If during the first warning that I think you alluded to, however, you didn’t bring up your medical situation, you may have to overcome that obstacle.  This isn’t as big a deal as it sounds, though.  It’s normal for people in business, who have anxiety disorders, to hide them for fear of retribution.  So making an after the fact case is still viable.

I was not given a chance to refute or explain anything during the first warning. (Dates of insuffient work were ranging from Feb 12-March 7 and the write up was issued on March 11) However, I took the write up to both pdoc and therapist, and they noted the dates that the boss said I wasn’t performing, were during extreme med changes, attitude readjusting, etc (I’m bi-polar and just recently have been diagnosed properly and got the correct medication. Actually, I should say, bi-polar, anxiety, panic, anger/rage, and obsessive compulsive disorder.) So when I talked with my therapist, she said she thought we may have something. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Continuing with this last thought, i.e., assuming you can do the essential work, but that your performance (or lack of it) was due to the anxiety disorder and/or the meds you take, you may be able to get your job back plus backpay and a virtual guarantee that this will never happen again.  Even receiving punitive damage $ is a possibility if you want to push the discharge to its fullest extent.   Best thing to do, IMO, is for you to recall as well as you can any significant events that have occurred since being hired and write them down in chronological  order.  Examples:  Assignments or projects considered well handled, praise (especially in writing), performance appraisals, any indication on your part that you have a disorder or are being medicated, any discriminatory events, etc.  Then make an appt. with an attorney who specializes in labor law (if possible, but any good attorney can handle this), ask for a consultation appt. re. a possible discrimination based discharge, and take the outline to the attorney when you actually see him/her.  You’ll also be discussing your firing, be asked questions, etc.

In short, I was never told that I was not performing to standard. I was always told that I was doing a good job and ahead of the ball, always one step ahead of where I needed to be. The write up has got so many lies and inconsitencies in it I’d like to scream. I was not given a performance assesment at my 90 day probationary period. March 11th was two weeks past my 6 months there. That was the first and only "report" or "assesment" I had received. The very next week he was back to telling me that I was doing a good job and was back on track. 17 days after the first and only warning, write up I was fired. In that time I had to take 2 personal days (we are permitted to take 8 per year) one because I had a doc appt. and the other to get my car repaired. so actually, it’s 17 days – 4 days that were weekends = 13 days then – 2 personal days that I wasn’t there = 11 days from the day I was written up to the day I was fired. Now, can a person show mass amounts of approvement in 11 days? The write up did not specify a time when we would reasses my performance. It’s a bunch of BS. Usually the introductory appt. is free and a decent attorney will tell someone if they have a case that has a chance of being won.  Fees are also negotiable to some degree.  Just as an fyi, the legal system for labor law allows employees to file charges and represent themselves. (These things rarely go to court, btw.)  However, the law is so complex, I still recommend an attorney versus going it alone.  Your main legal basis for re-employment will probably be based on the Americans With Disabilities ACT and/or labor law having to do with fair employment and equal opportunity.

I’ve got some law connections. The most important factor in this situation is whether you could do the work required with or without accommodation. Please don’t get upset with the following few sentences.  If you had a job that was beyond your abilities, or if you didn’t make the effort, there is no case.  You did seem to indicate that your boss spoke to you previously about your work, but I don’t know any of the details.   Having said that, from what I read in earlier posts of yours on this subject, you also indicated that you bent over backwards to perform your job well, so this may not be an issue.  In fact, the "warning" or whatever could be construed as another example of discrimination.

I’m not upset. I had a job that was well within my abilities. I never heard a word from my boss that I was not performing at standard. You are correct in my bending over backwards to perform well, and I can actually back that up. Even though my time sheets show that I was there 8-5 with a one hour lunch, there’s the sign in sheets at the front desk where you sign in when you get there, leave for lunch, or go to lunch, when you come back, and when you leave for the day. That is put into a database. Oh yeah. Accommodation for a disability does have to be requested, but it can still come into play in an after the fact firing situation.  Also, accommodation can consist of virtually anything you can think of that would help you do the job as long as the cost is reasonable to your ex employer – being allowed to work at home, work-arounds for whatever you consider difficult situations that could become tolerable if you had some help or support, etc.  are examples of accommodation. Again, and I can’t stress this enough, the basic premise is that the essentials of the job have to be performed with or without accommodation.

I don’t believe I needed any type of accomodation to complete my job. I could do everything in my job description and beyond without accommodation to my mental condition. There is at least one caveat (and probably others that an attorney would know of).  If your medication requirements are so high that you can’t do the essential work with or without accommodation, that fact could also preclude your getting your job back.  There’s an exception here too though.  If accommodations enabled you to manage your anxiety better so that meds don’t become an issue, the case would still be valid.

I am on high levels of medication but no accommodation was necessary. (Then again, I’m a work-a-holic who hates to admit it when she needs help and will do everything to be perfect, even though perfection is not achievable.) A couple of parting comments.  I’ve been thru a similar situation (not being fired, but being discriminated against for my job performance and ultimately getting accommodations) and I had to go the legal route to get justice.  If you want to email me for further information about how to proceed or to see what kind of accommodations I received, or for anything else relating to your job situation, please don’t hesitate.  Best wishes. Doug D.

Thank you again for your information. I will be printing it out and taking it to the therapist on tuesday. Much Love, Brooke

Response:

Hi Larry, Thanks for your very helpful and clear letter.   You have a great Thanksgiving, too. Now off to the gym to get those endorphins activated so I can deal with the people I’ll see today (hahaha!) All the best & take care, Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Anne, >Part of the problem for us "older" group is that until 18 or 19 years ago >PTSD was not a disorder and there was no help for a trauma victim for long >term or correct therapy. The number of people that either went un-diagnosed >or were treated for only part of their disorder was to an extent staggering. >There are still a large number of Pdocs and other doctors that don’t believe >PTSD is an actual disorder. We are fighting more than just a personal battle >with PTSD. We are also caught in the fight between orthodox psychiatry, >orthodox psychology and new-wave pop psychology. Since treating us presents >a challenge for everyone, we end up getting both confusing information and >treatment. Perhaps in the future the DSM will drop the PTSD label and call >it something that everyone can agree on (I should live so long!). >Have a great Thanksgiving, >Larry L. >"Anneks89" <annek…@aol.com> wrote in message >news:20021128002447.05367.00008031@mb-fw.aol.com… >> Hi Mary D., >> Thanks for writing to the group.  What Larry says is true.  Get the help >now >> and don’t give up trying. >> I often wonder how many of the symptoms I have would have been lessened >> considerably if I had received treatment for the psychological damage as >well >> as the physical soon after the original trauma.  I waited three years >before I >> began to try to get help and it took another >> 15 years before I was diagnosed with full-blown PTSD. >> Good luck.  Glad you wrote. >> Take care of yourself.  Glad your dog is OK. >> Anne

Response:

Hi Mary D., Thanks for writing to the group.  What Larry says is true.  Get the help now and don’t give up trying. I often wonder how many of the symptoms I have would have been lessened considerably if I had received treatment for the psychological damage as well as the physical soon after the original trauma.  I waited three years before I began to try to get help and it took another 15 years before I was diagnosed with full-blown PTSD.   Good luck.  Glad you wrote. Take care of yourself.  Glad your dog is OK. Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Hi Mrs. D, >It’s a shame that you had to go through that experience. After four months >without treatment someone could start down the road of PTSD. The further in >time you get away from the original trauma and still at times experience the >trauma like it just happened the more difficult it will be to change this >pattern of thinking. Talk to the doctor you are currently seeing. Don’t let >him treat you but ask if he could refer you to a psychiatrist who has >experience with PTSD or trauma in general (while I dislike Pdocs to an >extent, some therapists, usually psychologists, think they have all the >answers. Many people need both. A good trauma Pdoc will refer you to a >therapist, question this if he/she doesn’t and vise-versa). I wish you good >luck, your trauma is still recent enough, from what I read, that the right >treatment can stop that "mental" process. Don’t let anyone talk you out of >getting treatment for this. PTSD doesn’t get better with time, it gets >worse. >Larry L. >"Mrs. D" <marlou1…@aol.comedy> wrote in message >news:20021127201614.05372.00005211@mb-mq.aol.com… >> >>I get more input from family and friends like >> " Oh come on….get over it.! Your accident was TWO months ago!"<< >> I’m really relieved to hear about PTSD in relation to car accidents on >this >> newsgroup … I’ve been lurking on and off for about a month now, but >didn’t >> want to seem like a whiner.  This is really so not like me … >> My story:  I was in a car accident a little over six months ago.  A guy >ran a >> red light at 55 mph in his mini van and slammed into my convertible as I >was >> going through an intersection.  He sent my car into a tailspin and, the >worst >> part of it for me, he sent my baby dog flying out of the car.  I panicked, >> threw open the car door as soon as the cars spinning slowed down and I >realized >> where I was, and ran out onto a six lane highway.  Thankfully, I got to my >dog >> in time and we’re both basically ok … I’ve got nerve damage now in my >right >> hand that I’m still seeing doctors for, but I’ll live.  Flashbacks come >> whenever I think about it – it’s almost like waking up out of a nightmare, >I >> see everything so clearly.  And, a lot of it is what could have happened >to my >> dog (or me …) … >> I’m not even sure how to find a good therapist … or even if I should.  I >> think I have PTSD … what should I do? >> MaryD

Response:

Hi Anne, Part of the problem for us "older" group is that until 18 or 19 years ago PTSD was not a disorder and there was no help for a trauma victim for long term or correct therapy. The number of people that either went un-diagnosed or were treated for only part of their disorder was to an extent staggering. There are still a large number of Pdocs and other doctors that don’t believe PTSD is an actual disorder. We are fighting more than just a personal battle with PTSD. We are also caught in the fight between orthodox psychiatry, orthodox psychology and new-wave pop psychology. Since treating us presents a challenge for everyone, we end up getting both confusing information and treatment. Perhaps in the future the DSM will drop the PTSD label and call it something that everyone can agree on (I should live so long!). Have a great Thanksgiving, Larry L. "Anneks89" <annek…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:20021128002447.05367.00008031@mb-fw.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Mary D., > Thanks for writing to the group.  What Larry says is true.  Get the help now > and don’t give up trying. > I often wonder how many of the symptoms I have would have been lessened > considerably if I had received treatment for the psychological damage as well > as the physical soon after the original trauma.  I waited three years before I > began to try to get help and it took another > 15 years before I was diagnosed with full-blown PTSD. > Good luck.  Glad you wrote. > Take care of yourself.  Glad your dog is OK. > Anne

Response:

<mar…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:27381-3DD3A7AB-19@storefull-2197.public.lawson.webtv.net… > THANK YOU for the responses to my question! > It has been so helpful …. especially since PTSD seems to be an area > pretty new /one that > is only recognized by those who experience it. > I get more input from family and friends like > " Oh come on….get over it.! Your accident was TWO months ago!"

I think this is what they call secondary wounding.  It’s not intentional, but it sure isn’t helpful to you.  Your friends and family would probably benefit from learning something about PTSD and traumatic stress disorders. You might find this link to be of some value: http://www.patiencepress.com/samples/2ndIssue.html The author has got quite a bit of insight into the impact of this disorder on families and other loved ones. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My accident : On the highway in the slow lane…saw a car coming up > behind me going like a bat out of hell..Thinking to myself…"This guy > is going hit me"! ……. Next thing I knew I was flying through the air > and landed in a > stream….totalled car…couldn’t get out because I had the a/c on and > doors and windows were locked…..I didn’t know I had landed  in a > stream and thought it was gas ( not water)coming up through the floor > and thought the car was going to blow up!  SCARED!…..Thanks to cell > phones someone had called in and help soon came.. > The guy who hit me had seen a deer…panicked and tried to avoid it by > coming into my lane from the fast lane….lost control of his car and > hit me…..I was probably going 65 and he was going about 75!. > I had no physical damage …except minor concussion and air bag facial > bruises…and seat belt bruises……..BUT….sure have had sleepless > nights and anxiety etc….and lots of different arthritic -like aches ! > but the fears of being hit from another car, or a honk or lane > weavers… etc is a BIG problem….and the fatigue…etc …

I’m so sorry to hear about the accident and how it’s affected you  I’m glad that you are physically okay, though.  From what I have been reading recently, if this has been a fairly recent trauma, you could benefit greatly by getting counseling now.  Severe traumatic stress responses don’t always blossom into full-blown PTSD, and early intervention can help a lot there. > Thanks again to you all……..I hope this group grows and grows cause > it could help so many people who don’t know what this strange feeling is > have courage to take action to get help! > I’ll keep you posted!

Good luck!

Response:

>>I get more input from family and friends like

" Oh come on….get over it.! Your accident was TWO months ago!"<< I’m really relieved to hear about PTSD in relation to car accidents on this newsgroup … I’ve been lurking on and off for about a month now, but didn’t want to seem like a whiner.  This is really so not like me … My story:  I was in a car accident a little over six months ago.  A guy ran a red light at 55 mph in his mini van and slammed into my convertible as I was going through an intersection.  He sent my car into a tailspin and, the worst part of it for me, he sent my baby dog flying out of the car.  I panicked, threw open the car door as soon as the cars spinning slowed down and I realized where I was, and ran out onto a six lane highway.  Thankfully, I got to my dog in time and we’re both basically ok … I’ve got nerve damage now in my right hand that I’m still seeing doctors for, but I’ll live.  Flashbacks come whenever I think about it – it’s almost like waking up out of a nightmare, I see everything so clearly.  And, a lot of it is what could have happened to my dog (or me …) … I’m not even sure how to find a good therapist … or even if I should.  I think I have PTSD … what should I do? MaryD

Response:

Hi Mrs. D, It’s a shame that you had to go through that experience. After four months without treatment someone could start down the road of PTSD. The further in time you get away from the original trauma and still at times experience the trauma like it just happened the more difficult it will be to change this pattern of thinking. Talk to the doctor you are currently seeing. Don’t let him treat you but ask if he could refer you to a psychiatrist who has experience with PTSD or trauma in general (while I dislike Pdocs to an extent, some therapists, usually psychologists, think they have all the answers. Many people need both. A good trauma Pdoc will refer you to a therapist, question this if he/she doesn’t and vise-versa). I wish you good luck, your trauma is still recent enough, from what I read, that the right treatment can stop that "mental" process. Don’t let anyone talk you out of getting treatment for this. PTSD doesn’t get better with time, it gets worse. Larry L. "Mrs. D" <marlou1…@aol.comedy> wrote in message

news:20021127201614.05372.00005211@mb-mq.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>I get more input from family and friends like > " Oh come on….get over it.! Your accident was TWO months ago!"<< > I’m really relieved to hear about PTSD in relation to car accidents on this > newsgroup … I’ve been lurking on and off for about a month now, but didn’t > want to seem like a whiner.  This is really so not like me … > My story:  I was in a car accident a little over six months ago.  A guy ran a > red light at 55 mph in his mini van and slammed into my convertible as I was > going through an intersection.  He sent my car into a tailspin and, the worst > part of it for me, he sent my baby dog flying out of the car.  I panicked, > threw open the car door as soon as the cars spinning slowed down and I realized > where I was, and ran out onto a six lane highway.  Thankfully, I got to my dog > in time and we’re both basically ok … I’ve got nerve damage now in my right > hand that I’m still seeing doctors for, but I’ll live.  Flashbacks come > whenever I think about it – it’s almost like waking up out of a nightmare, I > see everything so clearly.  And, a lot of it is what could have happened to my > dog (or me …) … > I’m not even sure how to find a good therapist … or even if I should.  I > think I have PTSD … what should I do? > MaryD

Response:

Hi Marie, I agree with you about high speed chases. The problem is that the police many times don’t know why someone is running from them. If they never perused, then any fool, and there are far too many of them out there, is free to drive anyway they feel like and every criminal would know that all they have to do is go fast to get away. State and Federal legislators have made little attempt to find another way to stop a car and without being forced to, automobile manufactures will not install many of the devices that have been presented to allow the police to do this safely. They all say that if they do put devices in cars that someone’s civil rights will be violated. While some cops get a thrill from chases, most fear them. What you see on TV after a chase, the smiles and hi-fives is, for most, a by-product of adrenaline. There are ways to stop the chases and catch the "bad" guys and they exist now. I have been involved in some high speed chases near 100 mph, on an island where the top posted speed limit was 35 mph, and even a battle hardened soldier (with the beginnings of PTSD creeping in) felt both the fear and adrenaline. We need to change a lot of things in our world, and this is near the top for me. Larry L. "Rose Marie Holt" <rmho…@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:rmholt1-0DB0FD.08152214112002@news.mindspring.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> X-No-Archive:yes > In article <g6MA9.76478$g9.216…@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>, >  "Duke" <duke01bytesh…@bigpond.com> wrote: > > I agree seek help. I see a Trauma Specialist. My diagnosis is PTSD with > > co-morbid major depression from a car accident in May.   *possible trigger > > below* > > I was passenger in a fatal head on collision where a police motorcyclist who > > was chasing a speeder slammed head on into us on a blind bend and died > > instantly. > > Best of Luck Maggie, > > Jordan. > This is a pet peeve with me – in the ER I have seen so many innocent > people die or be seriously hurt in high speed chases.  The cops say the > bad guy is to blame, but I think the cops need to rethink their love of > whizzing around in their machines chasing bad guys.  Rarely is the > suspected infraction so bad that it justifies endangering the lives of > the cop OR the bad guy, and so often an innocent gets hurt. > FWIW, cops are finally seeing the light on this. > Best, Marie

Response:

THANK YOU for the responses to my question! It has been so helpful …. especially since PTSD seems to be an area pretty new /one that is only recognized by those who experience it. I get more input from family and friends like " Oh come on….get over it.! Your accident was TWO months ago!" My accident : On the highway in the slow lane…saw a car coming up behind me going like a bat out of hell..Thinking to myself…"This guy is going hit me"! ……. Next thing I knew I was flying through the air and landed in a stream….totalled car…couldn’t get out because I had the a/c on and doors and windows were locked…..I didn’t know I had landed  in a stream and thought it was gas ( not water)coming up through the floor and thought the car was going to blow up!  SCARED!…..Thanks to cell phones someone had called in and help soon came.. The guy who hit me had seen a deer…panicked and tried to avoid it by coming into my lane from the fast lane….lost control of his car and hit me…..I was probably going 65 and he was going about 75!. I had no physical damage …except minor concussion and air bag facial bruises…and seat belt bruises……..BUT….sure have had sleepless nights and anxiety etc….and lots of different arthritic -like aches ! but the fears of being hit from another car, or a honk or lane weavers… etc is a BIG problem….and the fatigue…etc … Thanks again to you all……..I hope this group grows and grows cause it could help so many people who don’t know what this strange feeling is have courage to take action to get help! I’ll keep you posted! M………

Response:

I agree seek help. I see a Trauma Specialist. My diagnosis is PTSD with co-morbid major depression from a car accident in May.   *possible trigger below* I was passenger in a fatal head on collision where a police motorcyclist who was chasing a speeder slammed head on into us on a blind bend and died instantly.  6 months down the track now I still am having intensive trauma therapy for triggers that for me are things that are seen every day…motorbikes, police of any kind and right hand bends. My injuries were severe enough that I couldnt drive again for 8 weeks and now I am back behind the wheel I am learning that not every bike I see is going to hit me. My family and friends just can’t deal with this new me so I’m going it alone. Its easier this way  less explaining and justifying why I am a fruitcake. Never ever listen to  anyone tell you to ‘get over it’  Its just their way of saying they can’t deal with your pain. One day at a time Maggie don’t expect any more of yourself than that. Best of Luck Maggie, Jordan. "Jeff B" <jrb…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:3DD32648.88865C76@earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > Do seek help as soon as possible.  I was in an auto accident and two > years later I was clinically depressed.  I didn’t seek help until the depression. > I have flashbacks and so think I have some level of PTSD (if there is a level). > Whatever your case, I encourage you to get help immediately…good quality > help…even if it takes some money. > Possible triggers below. > The accident I was in was fatal to the other driver…he was drunk and actually trying to > run me off the road.  I was not physically injured. > Grace Pedalino wrote: > > Hi, > > It’s great that you are seeking help. Anyway with major trauma can get PTSD. > > I have it after emotional/sexual abuse. Don’t diminish your pain by assuming > > your particular trauma is not "worthy" You may not need meds, or you may. A > > psychologist can determine that. Don’t go to an MD just for meds, do get > > help for the emotional pain you are suffering. See a psychologist and get > > evaluated. Try and find one with some experience with trauma. > > Good luck and welcome to the group. > > Grace > > <mar…@webtv.net> wrote in message > > news:18569-3DD10948-544@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > > About two months ago I was run off the highway by a car….No serious > > > injuries but can’t seem to get "with it" and a friend said sounds like > > > PTSD….After research on www and reading this group…sounds like it > > > might be… > > > What do you do with this info??Do reg MDs > > > know what to do about it…what kind of docs treat it? Are there meds > > > for it??? > > > (I have a feeling that one might get that eye-rolling reaction > > > like.."Oh..come-on…now…That’s what vets get…not OTHER people!!!") > > > Any help/suggestions etc etc would be much appreciated,,,, > > > Thanks much! > > > Maggie

Response:

Jordan;     I understand what you are saying.  But, sometimes there just isn’t any rhyme nor reason in what happens in life.  We wish it were different, but for some unknown reason, people are going to be people.  It wouldn’t matter what kind of speed limit were imposed upon the public, as they would continue to speed, and break the law.  That is just the way they are.     However, I am in agreement, that an intensive education would be in order, starting with elementary school.  We used to have a State Patrolman come into the classroom once a year and show grisly photos and movies to us. I can still see the images in my head.  They were very graphic.  Not too good on the nightmares, but they did stick with me pretty well.  I remember once in high school, when I was a freshman, a Patrol Officer came into the auditorium, and the first thing he said was " Before your class graduates, at least two of you will die in an automobile accident".  He was right.  Two of our classmates were dead before the end of the next term.     I cannot say that all of this stopped me from speeding during the course of my life, but it has caused me pause more than once.  So, in my case, I figure it worked pretty well.  If it can work in my life, I suppose it can work in others.  There is NO easy answer, but I feel we should at least try for one.     In the State of Florida, willfully fleeing and alluding a Law Enforcement Officer is a third degree felony.  Quite a serious crime.  But, proving it is extremely hard to do.  As your example stated:  The guy said he didn’t know he was being chased.  We all know that is ‘bull’, but in a courtroom here, the criminal’s testimony has as much bearing as the Law Enforcement Officer’s.  Amazing, but that is the way it is.  A Law Enforcement Officer has to prove his competence, as well as his truthfulness before he can even wear a badge.  They have to go through a lie detector test, background check, psychological examination, physical examination, and be certified by the State of Florida, along with over 660 hours of training just for basic certification.  Plus, they have to do over 40 hours of inservice training every year just to keep their certification.  But, a criminal’s word can be taken over the Officer’s.  Geeeeesh, I burn up thinking about it.     I wish you well down there, and hope things get better for you.  The police chases are a world wide problem, with no answer in sight.  Thanks for bringing it up, as it truly bothers me as well.  Take care, J. David flmf…@tampabay.rr.com "Duke" <> wrote in message

news:35iB9.77506$g9.218378@newsfeeds.bigpond.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I still carry so much rage from this crash. I DO want to do something about > changing the police chase procedures but what? > So many innocent 3rd parties are hurt or killed in chases that it does make > my blood boil. Not to mention the officer who was killed and the wife and 4 > kids he left behind,or his workmates who had to investigate his death. > I know the name of the guy he was chasing ( he got off scot free cause he > claims he didn’t know that he was being chased) and one day I want to meet > this asshole and ask him the big why???????????????? > Stangely enough now, I have become really close to an officer up here who > has been helping me to desensitise around bikes and the uniform in general. > He was on the bikes for years and has some chilling horror stories. > As a result of this crash, all bikes in Australia have now been speed > limited to 130 kph, and the speed limits around the area the crash was has > been reduced by 20 kph. Is that going to stop some moron speeding? No. > I think maybe a very graphic road safety compaign is called for. Much like > the AIDS campaign of the eighties with the grim reaper. > We seem as a society to have put the blinkers on and are in denial of the > realities of  speeding or crashes in general. The real world is being > sanitised. > I am a statistic now, identified in the many many media stories about this > crash as "the passenger".  People need to be shown the aftereffects, the > emergency room carnage, the months of rehabilitation people need, the loss > of mum or dad on kids. In short…….the real cost of speeding. > I’ll get off my soap box now.  Sorry guys. But this is one subject so very > close to my heart. > Jordan. > "J David Phillips" <flmf…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message > news:PFXA9.286110$S8.5839849@twister.tampabay.rr.com… > > Ditto on that, Larry.  I spent most of my shortened Law Enforcement career > > on the water with the Florida Marine Patrol.  The water was bad enough, > but > > it was ten times better than the pavement.  Course, it ‘is’ rather hard to > > recreate an accident scene off shore > > J. David > > flmf…@tampabay.rr.com > > "LEL" <> wrote in message news:ut82un7hsdta92@corp.supernews.com… > > > Hi Marie, > > > I agree with you about high speed chases. The problem is that the police > > > many times don’t know why someone is running from them. If they never > > > perused, then any fool, and there are far too many of them out there, is > > > free to drive anyway they feel like and every criminal would know that > all > > > they have to do is go fast to get away. State and Federal legislators > have > > > made little attempt to find another way to stop a car and without being > > > forced to, automobile manufactures will not install many of the devices > > that > > > have been presented to allow the police to do this safely. They all say > > that > > > if they do put devices in cars that someone’s civil rights will be > > violated. > > > While some cops get a thrill from chases, most fear them. What you see > on > > TV > > > after a chase, the smiles and hi-fives is, for most, a by-product of > > > adrenaline. There are ways to stop the chases and catch the "bad" guys > and > > > they exist now. I have been involved in some high speed chases near 100 > > mph, > > > on an island where the top posted speed limit was 35 mph, and even a > > battle > > > hardened soldier (with the beginnings of PTSD creeping in) felt both the > > > fear and adrenaline. We need to change a lot of things in our world, and > > > this is near the top for me. > > > Larry L.

Response:

I still carry so much rage from this crash. I DO want to do something about changing the police chase procedures but what? So many innocent 3rd parties are hurt or killed in chases that it does make my blood boil. Not to mention the officer who was killed and the wife and 4 kids he left behind,or his workmates who had to investigate his death. I know the name of the guy he was chasing ( he got off scot free cause he claims he didn’t know that he was being chased) and one day I want to meet this asshole and ask him the big why???????????????? Stangely enough now, I have become really close to an officer up here who has been helping me to desensitise around bikes and the uniform in general. He was on the bikes for years and has some chilling horror stories. As a result of this crash, all bikes in Australia have now been speed limited to 130 kph, and the speed limits around the area the crash was has been reduced by 20 kph. Is that going to stop some moron speeding? No. I think maybe a very graphic road safety compaign is called for. Much like the AIDS campaign of the eighties with the grim reaper. We seem as a society to have put the blinkers on and are in denial of the realities of  speeding or crashes in general. The real world is being sanitised. I am a statistic now, identified in the many many media stories about this crash as "the passenger".  People need to be shown the aftereffects, the emergency room carnage, the months of rehabilitation people need, the loss of mum or dad on kids. In short…….the real cost of speeding. I’ll get off my soap box now.  Sorry guys. But this is one subject so very close to my heart. Jordan. "J David Phillips" <flmf…@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message news:PFXA9.286110$S8.5839849@twister.tampabay.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Ditto on that, Larry.  I spent most of my shortened Law Enforcement career > on the water with the Florida Marine Patrol.  The water was bad enough, but > it was ten times better than the pavement.  Course, it ‘is’ rather hard to > recreate an accident scene off shore > J. David > flmf…@tampabay.rr.com > "LEL" <> wrote in message news:ut82un7hsdta92@corp.supernews.com… > > Hi Marie, > > I agree with you about high speed chases. The problem is that the police > > many times don’t know why someone is running from them. If they never > > perused, then any fool, and there are far too many of them out there, is > > free to drive anyway they feel like and every criminal would know that all > > they have to do is go fast to get away. State and Federal legislators have > > made little attempt to find another way to stop a car and without being > > forced to, automobile manufactures will not install many of the devices > that > > have been presented to allow the police to do this safely. They all say > that > > if they do put devices in cars that someone’s civil rights will be > violated. > > While some cops get a thrill from chases, most fear them. What you see on > TV > > after a chase, the smiles and hi-fives is, for most, a by-product of > > adrenaline. There are ways to stop the chases and catch the "bad" guys and > > they exist now. I have been involved in some high speed chases near 100 > mph, > > on an island where the top posted speed limit was 35 mph, and even a > battle > > hardened soldier (with the beginnings of PTSD creeping in) felt both the > > fear and adrenaline. We need to change a lot of things in our world, and > > this is near the top for me. > > Larry L.

Response:

Ditto on that, Larry.  I spent most of my shortened Law Enforcement career on the water with the Florida Marine Patrol.  The water was bad enough, but it was ten times better than the pavement.  Course, it ‘is’ rather hard to recreate an accident scene off shore J. David flmf…@tampabay.rr.com – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"LEL" <> wrote in message news:ut82un7hsdta92@corp.supernews.com… > Hi Marie, > I agree with you about high speed chases. The problem is that the police > many times don’t know why someone is running from them. If they never > perused, then any fool, and there are far too many of them out there, is > free to drive anyway they feel like and every criminal would know that all > they have to do is go fast to get away. State and Federal legislators have > made little attempt to find another way to stop a car and without being > forced to, automobile manufactures will not install many of the devices that > have been presented to allow the police to do this safely. They all say that > if they do put devices in cars that someone’s civil rights will be violated. > While some cops get a thrill from chases, most fear them. What you see on TV > after a chase, the smiles and hi-fives is, for most, a by-product of > adrenaline. There are ways to stop the chases and catch the "bad" guys and > they exist now. I have been involved in some high speed chases near 100 mph, > on an island where the top posted speed limit was 35 mph, and even a battle > hardened soldier (with the beginnings of PTSD creeping in) felt both the > fear and adrenaline. We need to change a lot of things in our world, and > this is near the top for me. > Larry L.

Response:

Hi Maggie, While I am a combat vet with PTSD I have known for quite a while that almost anyone can end up with this disorder. I agree with Anne, you should see a mental health professional as soon as you can. Do you have PTSD, I don’t know nor can anyone else on this NG confirm or deny that you are in the process of developing it. The time range says that it still may be "just" traumatic stress. I say this not to minimize what happened to you or the way you have been feeling since. Non-treatment of traumatic stress can lead to PTSD so it is really important that you see someone now. If I had been given treatment right after Nam I’m sure I would be better off now. I too am sorry that incident happened to you. If you don’t feel right or your friends say you don’t act the way you used to it’s a warning from your brain to get some help. Take care, Larry L. <mar…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:18569-3DD10948-544@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> About two months ago I was run off the highway by a car….No serious > injuries but can’t seem to get "with it" and a friend said sounds like > PTSD….After research on www and reading this group…sounds like it > might be… > What do you do with this info??Do reg MDs > know what to do about it…what kind of docs treat it? Are there meds > for it??? > (I have a feeling that one might get that eye-rolling reaction > like.."Oh..come-on…now…That’s what vets get…not OTHER people!!!") > Any help/suggestions etc etc would be much appreciated,,,, > Thanks much! > Maggie

Response:

Hi, It’s great that you are seeking help. Anyway with major trauma can get PTSD. I have it after emotional/sexual abuse. Don’t diminish your pain by assuming your particular trauma is not "worthy" You may not need meds, or you may. A psychologist can determine that. Don’t go to an MD just for meds, do get help for the emotional pain you are suffering. See a psychologist and get evaluated. Try and find one with some experience with trauma. Good luck and welcome to the group. Grace <mar…@webtv.net> wrote in message

news:18569-3DD10948-544@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> About two months ago I was run off the highway by a car….No serious > injuries but can’t seem to get "with it" and a friend said sounds like > PTSD….After research on www and reading this group…sounds like it > might be… > What do you do with this info??Do reg MDs > know what to do about it…what kind of docs treat it? Are there meds > for it??? > (I have a feeling that one might get that eye-rolling reaction > like.."Oh..come-on…now…That’s what vets get…not OTHER people!!!") > Any help/suggestions etc etc would be much appreciated,,,, > Thanks much! > Maggie

Response:

Hi, Do seek help as soon as possible.  I was in an auto accident and two years later I was clinically depressed.  I didn’t seek help until the depression. I have flashbacks and so think I have some level of PTSD (if there is a level). Whatever your case, I encourage you to get help immediately…good quality help…even if it takes some money. Possible triggers below. The accident I was in was fatal to the other driver…he was drunk and actually trying to run me off the road.  I was not physically injured. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Grace Pedalino wrote: > Hi, > It’s great that you are seeking help. Anyway with major trauma can get PTSD. > I have it after emotional/sexual abuse. Don’t diminish your pain by assuming > your particular trauma is not "worthy" You may not need meds, or you may. A > psychologist can determine that. Don’t go to an MD just for meds, do get > help for the emotional pain you are suffering. See a psychologist and get > evaluated. Try and find one with some experience with trauma. > Good luck and welcome to the group. > Grace > <mar…@webtv.net> wrote in message > news:18569-3DD10948-544@storefull-2193.public.lawson.webtv.net… > > About two months ago I was run off the highway by a car….No serious > > injuries but can’t seem to get "with it" and a friend said sounds like > > PTSD….After research on www and reading this group…sounds like it > > might be… > > What do you do with this info??Do reg MDs > > know what to do about it…what kind of docs treat it? Are there meds > > for it??? > > (I have a feeling that one might get that eye-rolling reaction > > like.."Oh..come-on…now…That’s what vets get…not OTHER people!!!") > > Any help/suggestions etc etc would be much appreciated,,,, > > Thanks much! > > Maggie

Response:

About two months ago I was run off the highway by a car….No serious injuries but can’t seem to get "with it" and a friend said sounds like PTSD….After research on www and reading this group…sounds like it might be… What do you do with this info??Do reg MDs know what to do about it…what kind of docs treat it? Are there meds for it??? (I have a feeling that one might get that eye-rolling reaction like.."Oh..come-on…now…That’s what vets get…not OTHER people!!!") Any help/suggestions etc etc would be much appreciated,,,, Thanks much! Maggie

Response:

Hi Maggie! You’ve taken an important step in getting help by writing this letter.  Really sorry about the accident. If you are not yet in therapy, a therapist can help with this.  Yes, there are Meds which can help.  And yes, there are even therapists and psychiatrists who specialize in the treatment of PTSD. You’re on the right track by just asking for help.  That was a big thing for me and took years for me to do.  I did get help for the physical damage but waited until the pain was too much to bear before I got help for all the rest of it.   The therapist who first diagnosed me with PTSD worked closely with a psychiatrist at the same hospital to find the right combination of Meds to help me.  It took a while for me to get the right combination, but when I did, the difference was tremendous. Some of that doctor’s years of research with VietNam veterans before I met her in 1989 was what helped her to understand more about PTSD.  Because of them, I was helped. In my case I reached a point two years ago where my symptoms were minimal and I was "triggered" only 2-3 times a year. That was amazing.  Twelve years of intense therapy, hospital stays, and a deep commitment to getting well and relying on a power greater than myself brought me to a place of hope. We can learn to manage our lives with help and live with PTSD. In my case I do know what it’s like to be relatively free of the symptoms and live a relatively sane, productive and happy life. Right now, I’m living with symptoms almost everyday from constant and often unexpected triggers and am really stressed out. Fortunately I know that I can get help. Between therapy, Meds, and just hard work there can be relief.  I have choices now I never had before I began to get help the first time. I wish you well on your journey, Maggie. You are not alone.  Good luck! Take care, Anne – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->About two months ago I was run off the highway by a car….No serious >injuries but can’t seem to get "with it" and a friend said sounds like >PTSD….After research on www and reading this group…sounds like it >might be… >What do you do with this info??Do reg MDs >know what to do about it…what kind of docs treat it? Are there meds >for it??? >(I have a feeling that one might get that eye-rolling reaction >like.."Oh..come-on…now…That’s what vets get…not OTHER people!!!") >Any help/suggestions etc etc would be much appreciated,,,, >Thanks much! >Maggie

Response:

Spoilered for talk of m*ntal illness in family * * * * * * * * * * * ** I am having a very hard time functioning. My sister is still very psychotic, still hearing constant voices saying, "Violation, you are under arrest,the police are coming," "Go to the police station to ahve your surveillance device removed," and "Don’t go, it’s a trick," as well as telling her she is not allowed to do various thigns, liek eat or stand up or just about anything.  My grandfather who has Parkinson’s suddenly began hallucinating this week, and became extremely disoriented and confused.  My unlce, his wife, and their three kids are living with my grandfather, and my uncle is taking drugss and very paranoid, and has been walking aroudn with loaded guns, shooting holes through walls, leaving guns around to feel safe (except then the kids find them), etc. His wife is in a state of traumatic shock and barely functions.  This is all very bad for my grandfather’s state of mind.  Last night I spent several hours at his house, surrounded by three agitated, hallucinating people, while the sife and kids stared into space like zombnies, totally shut down to protect themselves.  I feel helpless and powerless and scared and enraged. I don’t know what to do. I start crying hysterically ever time I am alone. I feel sick to my stomach all the time.  My SO is furious at me because I am so preoccupied and he feels like I am not giving him enough attention, and I am furious at him that he can’t understand I need to be left alone when I am in this kinjd of state.  Last night I told him he could not come home, that I cojuldn’t handle seeing him there. He went somewhere else, I don’t know where, after screaming at me that he wasn’t going to go because it is his home too.  But I pay the rent and all the bills whiel he tries to get out of debt and pay child support from his previous marriage, and I can’t afford to pay for two places if I need to get away from him.  He left me a message today asking if he can come home thsi evenign just to sleep, before he goes to his second job, which is a night shift.  I fel liek I can’t function in a relationship rigth now, and I don’t know what to do about this.  I want to be alone and let everyone insdie me feel free to come out and do all the things they need to do to de-stress, like play out teh stressful issues with dolls and coloring and collages andstuff liek that, and I can’t do that with him there.  At least at work I am focused on work, and amazingly, the atmosophere there has gotten much better.  We do a llot of fun activities at this time of year, and I’ve been trying to focus on going on trips with the clietns and spending quality time with them, and lettkgn some of the administrative stuff slide until I am feelign more stable. Last week we went apple picking, pumpkin picking, hay-riding, hikiing, and picnicking, and those thigns all lift my spirits. And I like starting the year with new student itnerns and teaching them about the program, and I really like my students this year.  So there are some positives. But I have been turning to food as one of my only sources of comfort, and this worries me, especially when I am out with clients, and I start buying lots of food and we all end up over-eating. I still have been too anxious and exhausted to exercise. I am so tired all the time.  I jsut want to go away for months and forget abotu my life.  I’m tired. -Nancy

Response:

Yikes.. that’s quite a load you’re carrying there.  It’s hard when there’s no place to let out the tension..  We don’t really know what to say but we are pr*ying for you and sending warm thoughts in your direction.  And hugs too if they are okay (they can be warm fuzzies or kitty purrs if hugs aren’t okay). Rainstar – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spoilered for talk of m*ntal illness in family * * * * * * * * * * * ** I am having a very hard time functioning. My sister is still very psychotic, still hearing constant voices saying, "Violation, you are under arrest,the police are coming," "Go to the police station to ahve your surveillance device removed," and "Don’t go, it’s a trick," as well as telling her she is not allowed to do various thigns, liek eat or stand up or just about anything.  My grandfather who has Parkinson’s suddenly began hallucinating this week, and became extremely disoriented and confused.  My unlce, his wife, and their three kids are living with my grandfather, and my uncle is taking drugss and very paranoid, and has been walking aroudn with loaded guns, shooting holes through walls, leaving guns around to feel safe (except then the kids find them), etc. His wife is in a state of traumatic shock and barely functions.  This is all very bad for my grandfather’s state of mind.  Last night I spent several hours at his house, surrounded by three agitated, hallucinating people, while the sife and kids stared into space like zombnies, totally shut down to protect themselves.  I feel helpless and powerless and scared and enraged. I don’t know what to do. I start crying hysterically ever time I am alone. I feel sick to my stomach all the time.  My SO is furious at me because I am so preoccupied and he feels like I am not giving him enough attention, and I am furious at him that he can’t understand I need to be left alone when I am in this kinjd of state.  Last night I told him he could not come home, that I cojuldn’t handle seeing him there. He went somewhere else, I don’t know where, after screaming at me that he wasn’t going to go because it is his home too.  But I pay the rent and all the bills whiel he tries to get out of debt and pay child support from his previous marriage, and I can’t afford to pay for two places if I need to get away from him.  He left me a message today asking if he can come home thsi evenign just to sleep, before he goes to his second job, which is a night shift.  I fel liek I can’t function in a relationship rigth now, and I don’t know what to do about this.  I want to be alone and let everyone insdie me feel free to come out and do all the things they need to do to de-stress, like play out teh stressful issues with dolls and coloring and collages andstuff liek that, and I can’t do that with him there.  At least at work I am focused on work, and amazingly, the atmosophere there has gotten much better.  We do a llot of fun activities at this time of year, and I’ve been trying to focus on going on trips with the clietns and spending quality time with them, and lettkgn some of the administrative stuff slide until I am feelign more stable. Last week we went apple picking, pumpkin picking, hay-riding, hikiing, and picnicking, and those thigns all lift my spirits. And I like starting the year with new student itnerns and teaching them about the program, and I really like my students this year.  So there are some positives. But I have been turning to food as one of my only sources of comfort, and this worries me, especially when I am out with clients, and I start buying lots of food and we all end up over-eating. I still have been too anxious and exhausted to exercise. I am so tired all the time.  I jsut want to go away for months and forget abotu my life.  I’m tired. -Nancy

Response:

Ney Nancy,     This seems pretty bad.  Actually, about as awful as it gets without all out famine and warfare.     I’m gonna add a coupla spaces to your spoiler (because it didn’t do the trick on my screen) then go below and dialogue. * * * *

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spoilered for talk of m*ntal illness in family * * * * * * * * * * * ** I am having a very hard time functioning. My sister is still very psychotic, still hearing constant voices saying, "Violation, you are under arrest,the police are coming," "Go to the police station to ahve your surveillance device removed," and "Don’t go, it’s a trick," as well as telling her she is not allowed to do various thigns, liek eat or stand up or just about

anything.     I think that there are times to consider commitment.  This may be one of them.  One way that such a thing could work for the good is like this:  Once a friend of mine committed routine, daily, and deeply dangerous si.  Another friend witnessed it one day.  Sie had the first friend committed.  Once friend one was in the state hsptl and evaluated, sie got shipped to a special program that actually helped her with her special needs. Of course sie had a high status professional job and lots of insurance.  I don’t know how that is for your sister.  I do know, however, that nothing and no one are helped by you taking responsibility for this and the other situations in your family whether it be emotionally or actively or both. My grandfather who has Parkinson’s suddenly began hallucinating this week, and became extremely disoriented and confused.  My unlce, his wife, and their three kids are living with my grandfather, and my uncle is taking drugss and very paranoid, and has been walking aroudn with loaded guns, shooting holes through walls, leaving guns around to feel safe (except then the kids find

them), etc.     Whoa!  Now in this situation I would be inclined to have the police remove all of the guns.  I know of a case around here, recently, when the police came in with a search warrent based on a T’s testimony of having been told that guns were present in the house, and took all the guns away because of the owner’s bipolar disorder and hir particular behavior around that time. His wife is in a state of traumatic shock and barely functions.  This is all very bad for my grandfather’s state of mind.

    Well, this sorta makes sense, doesn’t it? Last night I spent several hours at his house,

    Now, this, otoh, does not seem sensible.  Why do you hang around these folks? surrounded by three agitated, hallucinating people,

    How have these folks managed to live together without some sort of professional supervision over the years? while the sife and kids stared into space like zombnies, totally shut down to protect themselves.

    I can understand this, but why did these wives marry into this family and why don’t they take their children away from it and start working on curing them now? I feel helpless and powerless and scared and enraged. I don’t know what to do. I start crying hysterically ever time I am alone. I feel sick to my stomach all the time.

    This has been my state of being, pretty much 24 / 7 lately, for different reasons, but who needs hysterical crying while feeling entirely helpless powerless, scared, and enraged?     I repeat, Nancy, take a long vacation.  As long as you possibly can. My SO is furious at me because I am so preoccupied and he feels like I am not giving him enough attention, and I am furious at him that he can’t understand I need to be left alone when I am in this kinjd of state.  Last night I told him he could not come home, that I cojuldn’t handle seeing him there. He went somewhere else, I don’t know where, after screaming at me that he wasn’t going to go because it is his home too.  But I pay the rent and all the bills whiel he tries to get out of debt and pay child support from his previous marriage,

    Uh, Nancy, uh, dare I say it?  This guy does not sound like a winner or keeper AT ALL.  Were I in your situation I’d have no problem reminding him who rents the place and that he should NEVER consider it his home.  I encourage you to change the locks and tell him to get lost. and I can’t afford to pay for two places

    Ah, but you already are!  His ex-wife’s place and yours. if I need to get away from him.  

    And you can’t get away from him without being guilt tripped!  C’mon, Nancy.  Get a grip.  You are not your family.  You are superior to them. He left me a message today asking if he can come home thsi evenign just to sleep, before he goes to his second job, which is a night shift.  I fel liek I can’t function in a relationship rigth now, and I don’t know what to do about this.  I want to be alone and let everyone insdie me feel free to come out and do all the things they need to do to de-stress, like play out teh stressful issues with dolls and coloring and collages andstuff liek that, and I can’t do that with him there.  

    Tell the not so "S" O to get lost. At least at work I am focused on work, and amazingly, the atmosophere there has gotten much better.

At last!  Good news. We do a llot of fun activities at this time of year, and I’ve been trying to focus on going on trips with the clietns and spending quality time with them, and lettkgn some of the administrative stuff slide until I am feelign more stable. Last week we went apple picking, pumpkin picking, hay-riding, hikiing, and picnicking, and those thigns all lift my spirits. And I like starting the year with new student itnerns and teaching them about the program, and I really like my students this year.  So there are some positives.

    I’m relieved to learn of these changes.  Still, I think you need a vacation. But I have been turning to food as one of my only sources of comfort, and this worries me, especially when I am out with clients, and I start buying lots of food and we all end up over-eating.

    Funny.  You turn to food.  I turn away from it.   I still have been too anxious and exhausted to exercise. I am so tired all the time.  I jsut want to go away for months and forget abotu my life.  I’m tired.

    Yet, still, we share all of the above qualities.       We both need tropical vacations. -Nancy

    I’m pulling for you, Nancy, but I think you ought to take a few steps on your own. trill GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!
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Response:

Thanks for answering, trill.  I did actually borrow my grandfather’s house at the beach for a few days a couple weeks ago, and just read, slept, swam, walked, and wrote, and did not speak to or interact with another person the entire time. This was very satisfying to me, and I felt good when i first came back. Then my sister and uncle started gettign worse, and my grandfather ahd these problems.  I am feeling relieved because we found out today from the Parkinson’s specialist that he is having a temporary delayed reaction to anesthesia from surgery last week, so I feel better knowing this shoulod be getting better soon.  I spend as little time there as I can, but I do try to help out when needed, and there are times I need to stay there until someone responsible shows up, so that my grandfather doesn’t wander off.  This part should be temporary, though.  As far as my uncle and his issues, one of myother uncles was supposed to be dealign with gettign the g*ns removed, and is clearly doing a lousy job, but I’m not getting into the middle of it and getting everyone pissed at me for bringing in "outsiders."  Anyway, now that the immediate crisis has passed, I can return to the boundary I’m trying to set of only going to see my family one to two times per week. I don’t really feel I can do les than that, because it isn’t fair to my grandfather, or my sister for that matter.  She doesn’t work, never really has worked much, so there is no decent insurance, and she’s not on Medicaid or Mediacre.  I’ve been trying to get her to, but she won’t.  I need to let go of that and not nag and make myself crazy.  My SO at least apologized profusely when I let him come home, and was very embarrassed about his behavior.  I think he was also very upset by the whoel thing, because he likes my grandfather a lot, too.  I told my SO he can stay for now, but needs to leave me alone and not talk to me or bother me when I tell him.  Since he works the two jobs, I do have a lot of time home alone to read and relax, when I am able to stick to theone to two times a week boundary for the family crazyness.  And work continues to be fun.  Today we had our fall picnic at the boat basin nearby, and we barbecued lots of good stuff and ate junk food and went hiking along a waterfall there, and walked by the Hudson River, and played kickball and hung out and relaxed, and everyone had a good time.  Do you have any idea how cool that is, for 22 people with histories of severe trauma, all kinds of psychiatric issues, and neurological impairments, to all enjoy a full-day even with no crises? All of my staff and I were pretty thrilled.  So, there are some bright spots.  How are you and the Potato doing? It sounds liek you’ve been feeling at least as lousy as I have. What’s up? Are you ok? Thanks again for responding. -Nancy

Response:

Hi Rainstar, Thank you for answering my post. I felt pretty down yesterday when there had been no responses yet, although I know there is a general lull around here.  I think the days getting shorter and weather gettign colder is hard on lots of people.  Anyway, thanks for teh support. -Nancy

Response:

Aggghhh – Nancy. I can’t even imagine coping w/all that you are having to deal with. Somehow we all manage to keep going under whatever burdens there are – but how?????? I am glad there are bright spots – I am glad things are not feelings so overwhelming this moment as they were a bit ago. I am glad the "SO" person is backing off as needed. I wish you could work it out to back away from family stuff more, but that’s easy for me to say: I live 700 miles from mine. Huh. How backed off can you get, right? And, then, when things do become critical, I am in a quandary about whether, when, and how to get down there. Well – all I can say – which isn’t much help, I am afraid – is that I send caring thoughts. I have no practical suggestions to offer – I am ignorant about what you face. So I can only wish you strength – and more bright spots. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks for answering, trill.  I did actually borrow my grandfather’s house at the beach for a few days a couple weeks ago, and just read, slept, swam, walked, and wrote, and did not speak to or interact with another person the entire time. This was very satisfying to me, and I felt good when i first came back. Then my sister and uncle started gettign worse, and my grandfather ahd these problems.  I am feeling relieved because we found out today from the Parkinson’s specialist that he is having a temporary delayed reaction to anesthesia from surgery last week, so I feel better knowing this shoulod be getting better soon.  I spend as little time there as I can, but I do try to help out when needed, and there are times I need to stay there until someone responsible shows up, so that my grandfather doesn’t wander off.  This part should be temporary, though.  As far as my uncle and his issues, one of myother uncles was supposed to be dealign with gettign the g*ns removed, and is clearly doing a lousy job, but I’m not getting into the middle of it and getting everyone pissed at me for bringing in "outsiders."  Anyway, now that the immediate crisis has passed, I can return to the boundary I’m trying to set of only going to see my family one to two times per week. I don’t really feel I can do les than that, because it isn’t fair to my grandfather, or my sister for that matter.  She doesn’t work, never really has worked much, so there is no decent insurance, and she’s not on Medicaid or Mediacre.  I’ve been trying to get her to, but she won’t.  I need to let go of that and not nag and make myself crazy.  My SO at least apologized profusely when I let him come home, and was very embarrassed about his behavior.  I think he was also very upset by the whoel thing, because he likes my grandfather a lot, too.  I told my SO he can stay for now, but needs to leave me alone and not talk to me or bother me when I tell him.  Since he works the two jobs, I do have a lot of time home alone to read and relax, when I am able to stick to theone to two times a week boundary for the family crazyness.  And work continues to be fun.  Today we had our fall picnic at the boat basin nearby, and we barbecued lots of good stuff and ate junk food and went hiking along a waterfall there, and walked by the Hudson River, and played kickball and hung out and relaxed, and everyone had a good time.  Do you have any idea how cool that is, for 22 people with histories of severe trauma, all kinds of psychiatric issues, and neurological impairments, to all enjoy a full-day even with no crises? All of my staff and I were pretty thrilled.  So, there are some bright spots.  How are you and the Potato doing? It sounds liek you’ve been feeling at least as lousy as I have. What’s up? Are you ok? Thanks again for responding. -Nancy

Response:

Hi Nancy…. Wow!!!  You certainly have a "full plate."  I wish I had good advice for you, but (as usual) it seems that I don’t!!  The one thing that I’ve always noticed when you post, though……is that with all of the sh*t you can be going through, you always seem to find something nice and/or joyful in your life.  I think that that attitude is admirable.  You have every right to be tired, or exhausted even.  I do hope that things even out for you. Nahanton – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Spoilered for talk of m*ntal illness in family * * * * * * * * * * * ** I am having a very hard time functioning. My sister is still very psychotic, still hearing constant voices saying, "Violation, you are under arrest,the police are coming," "Go to the police station to ahve your surveillance device removed," and "Don’t go, it’s a trick," as well as telling her she is not allowed to do various thigns, liek eat or stand up or just about anything. My grandfather who has Parkinson’s suddenly began hallucinating this week, and became extremely disoriented and confused.  My unlce, his wife, and their three kids are living with my grandfather, and my uncle is taking drugss and very paranoid, and has been walking aroudn with loaded guns, shooting holes through walls, leaving guns around to feel safe (except then the kids find them), etc. His wife is in a state of traumatic shock and barely functions.  This is all very bad for my grandfather’s state of mind.  Last night I spent several hours at his house, surrounded by three agitated, hallucinating people, while the sife and kids stared into space like zombnies, totally shut down to protect themselves.  I feel helpless and powerless and scared and enraged. I don’t know what to do. I start crying hysterically ever time I am alone. I feel sick to my stomach all the time.  My SO is furious at me because I am so preoccupied and he feels like I am not giving him enough attention, and I am furious at him that he can’t understand I need to be left alone when I am in this kinjd of state.  Last night I told him he could not come home, that I cojuldn’t handle seeing him there. He went somewhere else, I don’t know where, after screaming at me that he wasn’t going to go because it is his home too.  But I pay the rent and all the bills whiel he tries to get out of debt and pay child support from his previous marriage, and I can’t afford to pay for two places if I need to get away from him.  He left me a message today asking if he can come home thsi evenign just to sleep, before he goes to his second job, which is a night shift.  I fel liek I can’t function in a relationship rigth now, and I don’t know what to do about this.  I want to be alone and let everyone insdie me feel free to come out and do all the things they need to do to de-stress, like play out teh stressful issues with dolls and coloring and collages andstuff liek that, and I can’t do that with him there.  At least at work I am focused on work, and amazingly, the atmosophere there has gotten much better.  We do a llot of fun activities at this time of year, and I’ve been trying to focus on going on trips with the clietns and spending quality time with them, and lettkgn some of the administrative stuff slide until I am feelign more stable. Last week we went apple picking, pumpkin picking, hay-riding, hikiing, and picnicking, and those thigns all lift my spirits. And I like starting the year with new student itnerns and teaching them about the program, and I really like my students this year.  So there are some positives. But I have been turning to food as one of my only sources of comfort, and this worries me, especially when I am out with clients, and I start buying lots of food and we all end up over-eating. I still have been too anxious and exhausted to exercise. I am so tired all the time.  I jsut want to go away for months and forget abotu my life.  I’m tired. -Nancy

Response:

Thanks, Beauty, for your response.  Caring thoughts and wishes of strength and bright spots are definitely welcomed! I am feeling good that the atmosphere at work is better- there is still a lot of hostility in the agency, but my program is functioning more as a separate little bubble and I’m more successfully blocking out the other stuff.  And the good times in my program help make it easier to cope with the rest of my life being a mess.  Oh, well.  It’s always something. -Nancy

Response:

Nahanton, thank you for your kind words.  I was really touched by them.  Your repsonse made me feel really good. -Nancy

Response:

Isn’t it just, though? Always something, I mean. Like – now I’ve gotten through my son’s early years – and into the middle years which were pretty good except for his anguish in school, and now he’s suddenly p*bescing!!!!!  Gold-plated attitude. E.g. – I mentioned some musical artist in a genre he is interested in and he said, immediately, w/a sly laugh in his voice, "Well, if you like him, I *know* I wouldn’t" Yeah, I know, I know – it’s soooooo normal. But it still feels like a sm*ck. Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thanks, Beauty, for your response.  Caring thoughts and wishes of strength and bright spots are definitely welcomed! I am feeling good that the atmosphere at work is better- there is still a lot of hostility in the agency, but my program is functioning more as a separate little bubble and I’m more successfully blocking out the other stuff.  And the good times in my program help make it easier to cope with the rest of my life being a mess.  Oh, well.  It’s always something. -Nancy

Response:

*nod* No problem.. When Google Groups are working properly I can respond from work but lately they haven’t been working properly so sometimes I have to wait til I get home in the evening.  Otherwise prolly woulda answered sooner. Rainstar Hi Rainstar, Thank you for answering my post. I felt pretty down yesterday when there had been no responses yet, although I know there is a general lull around here.  I think the days getting shorter and weather gettign colder is hard on lots of people.  Anyway, thanks for teh support. -Nancy

– To e-mail remove extra from address

Response:

Hi, Nancy, Even though I don’t know what to say, I am going to attempt to make some comments throughout…. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Spoilered for talk of m*ntal illness in family * * * * * * * * * * * ** I am having a very hard time functioning. My sister is still very psychotic, still hearing constant voices saying, "Violation, you are under arrest,the police are coming," "Go to the police station to ahve your surveillance device removed," and "Don’t go, it’s a trick," as well as telling her she is not allowed to do various thigns, liek eat or stand up or just about anything.

Sounds like things haven’t improved much since the vacation.  Did you have any luck with her pdoc regarding the meds? (seem to recall you were trying to get her back on something she’d had better luck with in the past.) This must be so frightening (for both of you!)  I went to a web site once, that had a video simulation of how a typical interaction in a store might look and sound to someone with schizophrenia.  It was quite interesting-and chilling. My grandfather who has Parkinson’s suddenly began hallucinating this week, and became extremely disoriented and confused. My unlce, his wife, and their three kids are living with my grandfather, and my uncle is taking drugss and very paranoid, and has been walking aroudn with loaded guns, shooting holes through walls, leaving guns around to feel safe (except then the kids find them), etc.

Oh my gosh, what a horrifying thought.  This sounds really scary. His wife is in a state of traumatic shock and barely functions. This is all very bad for my grandfather’s state of mind. Last night I spent several hours at his house, surrounded by three agitated, hallucinating people, while the sife and kids stared into space like zombnies, totally shut down to protect themselves. I feel helpless and powerless and scared and enraged.

I can certainly understand why you would feel those things.  What an out of control situation. Scary stuff. I don’t know what to do. I start crying hysterically ever time I am alone.

Very appropriate response, IMHO.  Sounds just too overwhelming to contain.   I feel sick to my stomach all the time. My SO is furious at me because I am so preoccupied and he feels like I am not giving him enough attention,

My gosh, does he have any idea what you are dealing with?  By the time you are home after dealing with your family I’m sure you are so entirely drained that it would be impossible to meet anyone else’s need.  You’re the one who could probably use some TLC. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – and I am furious at him that he can’t understand I need to be left alone when I am in this kinjd of state. Last night I told him he could not come home, that I cojuldn’t handle seeing him there. He went somewhere else, I don’t know where, after screaming at me that he wasn’t going to go because it is his home too. But I pay the rent and all the bills whiel he tries to get out of debt and pay child support from his previous marriage, and I can’t afford to pay for two places if I need to get away from him. He left me a message today asking if he can come home thsi evenign just to sleep, before he goes to his second job, which is a night shift. I fel liek I can’t function in a relationship rigth now, and I don’t know what to do about this. I want to be alone and let everyone insdie me feel free to come out and do all the things they need to do to de-stress, like play out teh stressful issues with dolls and coloring and collages andstuff liek that, and I can’t do that with him there.

I think that this alone time, this private time in which insiders can be free to roam and express themselves is imperitive.  Someone who is going to be with you for awhile needs to know and respect this, IMO.  There has to be spaces in togetherness.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At least at work I am focused on work, and amazingly, the atmosophere there has gotten much better. We do a llot of fun activities at this time of year, and I’ve been trying to focus on going on trips with the clietns and spending quality time with them, and lettkgn some of the administrative stuff slide until I am feelign more stable. Last week we went apple picking, pumpkin picking, hay-riding, hikiing, and picnicking, and those thigns all lift my spirits.

That sounds refreshing.  I’m glad you were able to have a good time.   – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -And I like starting the year with new student itnerns and teaching them about the program, and I really like my students this year. So there are some positives. But I have been turning to food as one of my only sources of comfort, and this worries me, especially when I am out with clients, and I start buying lots of food and we all end up over-eating. I still have been too anxious and exhausted to exercise. I am so tired all the time. I jsut want to go away for months and forget abotu my life. I’m tired. -Nancy

I hope you are able to get some alone time for your & your insiders.  And I also hope that there is someone else who can share some of the burden of looking out for your relatives.  It is way too much for one person to deal with.   dove — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:

Response:

Hi, I’m fascinated by what I’ve been reading at http://www.social-anxiety.co.uk/ as it describes me to a tee.  But one thing that seems to be lacking from this and other web sites is what CAUSES Social Anxiety Disorder in the first place. Of course that may not matter, but it would be nice to know.  I can trace my anxiety back to childhood, but no specific event.  I just ‘always felt that way’ as far as I can remember.  Is it to do with upbringing perhaps?  Or what happens in the first 2.5 years of life when the brain is like a sponge, absorbing anything around us, including the negative things? Thanks in advance. HS

Response:

Sloppy, There’s another source of info, if *Humphrey* is looking for more info about Anxiety Disorders; The Anxiety Disorders Association of Ontario Toll Free number for the Lower 48 States, and all of Canada. 1-877-308-3843 www.anxietyontario.com They also have links to various other associations. Toll free phone always sounds good to me.            "Humphrey says… Hi, I’m fascinated by what I’ve been reading at http://www.social-anxiety.co.uk/ as it describes me to a tee.  But one thing that seems to be lacking from this and other web sites is what CAUSES Social Anxiety Disorder in the first place. Like most disorders classified as "anxiety disorders" there are only ideas of how/why. There’s no known cause.

Excellent article, but snipped for space since this is followup post. Sorry. ( Alan B. If you want my real email, remove all the *’s.

Response:

Whatever causes it, I wish they could come up with a sure-fire "cure"… It would sure make my life a heck of a lot easier! lol -Catie

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I’m fascinated by what I’ve been reading at http://www.social-anxiety.co.uk/ as it describes me to a tee.  But one thing that seems to be lacking from this and other web sites is what CAUSES Social Anxiety Disorder in the first place. Of course that may not matter, but it would be nice to know.  I can trace my anxiety back to childhood, but no specific event.  I just ‘always felt that way’ as far as I can remember.  Is it to do with upbringing perhaps?  Or what happens in the first 2.5 years of life when the brain is like a sponge, absorbing anything around us, including the negative things? Thanks in advance. HS

I don’t think there is any *one* thing that causes anxiety disorders, though there may be one that’s more important than another for an individual. Some of the things that may be involved are: genetics, your much more likely to develop a psych disorder if your near relatives have one; hormonal factors while still in the womb, there is some evidence that mothers with high stress hormone levels during gestation are more likely to produce easily stressed kids;   gender, females are much more likely to develop most, though not all, of the anxiety disorders. That may have something to do with genetics, or it may be hormonal. traumatic events in early childhood, especially abuse (physical, verbal or sexual, or neglect);   drug use; infections and auto-immune responses; chemical exposure; and no doubt other factors that haven’t been considered yet. While it would be nice to know, unfortunately, knowing doesn’t seem to help as far as recovery or cure.  For example, talk type therapies that rehash the past haven’t proven to be effective anxiety treatments. Ian

Response:

Is the author saying that even ‘normal people’ (singulars) can be found to be distinctly separate from many of their own moods such as anger; periodically experiencing Anger, for example, (as a part/person/mood) as coming forth to express against their will? Another question would be: Has this expression (of Anger for example) become found to have been manifested against their will when they look back and try to own it as their ‘own’ unfortunate behavior? "I’m sorry, I was Angry. I didn’t mean that." Then ‘who’ did? hehehe   St Basil once said Anger is a kind of  temporary insanity.  A mood? A part? A person within a person who is just as angry as the last time Anger came out? Maybe St Basil knew that his own anger was so out of character to himself that he described it as a type of insanity to justify his *own* distinctly-not-him behavior which overtook/influenced/acted against his will. Everyone blows up at some point leaving a trail of hurtful words and other extreme behaviors and voiced opinions which they soon regret. This ‘regret’ for us, specifically when we look back on a part’s activities and realize what (s)he has said/done, is much the same as any person’s tendency to ‘look back’ at the way they insulted a good friend, coworker or family member might be. "I’m sorry, I was angry." could easily been said "I’m sorry, it was Anger." <g If the author’s assumption is that everyone has parts residing in what we’ve learned to identify as just moods, then I was right; my T has parts too (LOL) and like I told her, if she’d just let her guard down and allow another T to guide her into her own world of compartmentalized ‘moods’, she too will discover that she has personalities (moods) who influence her behavior in rl. I think a perfect example of this is how T’s have been trained to shut off their own emotions (moods!) and personal issues while in session. Countertransferrence is a no-no so do they not dissociate to a certain extent their own moods/feelings/opinions/triggers when dealing with their clients? Maybe our T (for example) is an even more skilled and developed multiple than we are in the sense that she *can* survey and supervise her parts/moods/feelings when she’s being ‘professional’ thus not allowing these parts/moods/feelings to interfere with the work before her. The lesser skilled multiple finds herself at work and less capable (even *not* capable) at times from separating these parts/moods from interfering with her work and interactions. Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm….   Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – was sent this recently so i asked stanly if i could repost it here at asd he gave me permission to do so so here it is …food thought     iain (a bear of little brain)                                    Tuesday 27, November, 2001 Newsletter No 29      MOODS ARE PEOPLE TOO ! From what has become known as ‘multiple personality syndrome’ it is very interesting to speculate and wonder if what we call our ordinary moods are not personalities too; that perhaps what we call the changing moods of daily life are really ‘multiples’ who have been neglected, each mood a person who has been de-personalised as it were, and just given a generic label: a mood. Maybe we just don’t credit each passing mood with a name and being of its own. They are thus less clearly recognisable and, as such, we fail to recognise the distinctiveness of each mood; how it has a life of its own – its own memory, its own view of the world, its own interpretation of the past and future; how each time a certain mood returns it is exactly the same as the last time it visited us – like a well known friend whose character is always the same. Why would it change, it’s exactly the same person as before! Depersonalisation is the name of the game in modern psychology. This may sound a strange thing to say when we think of all the therapeutic methodologies and popular books on psychology that stress the development of the person. The sanctity of the human person is something we all know about. But we make the enormous assumption that there is only one real person to each visible human body. You never hear it said that the goal of therapy is to develop one’s personalities – all of them ! It is the exceptional that is interesting in any kind of research. In the sciences it is the exception to the agreed upon laws of nature that lead to a new and more comprehensive theory. This is no less true in the world of the psyche – it is the odd-ball that is interesting, psychologically. We call the ‘multiple personality’ a ‘dissociative disorder’. But if we step outside the label however, the condition demands we ask: what is the true nature of ‘multiple’ from the viewpoint of the human soul. Simply to regard any one of the multiples as the real one and the rest as ‘alters’ or ’sub-personalities’ simply pulls this unusual phenomena into the old conceptual framework. Trouble is it doesn’t fit. To make it fit we have to add attributes to the phenomena that aren’t really observable. For example, there is often nothing about any of the personalities which distinguishes them as being more real than any of the others. To assume that one of them is, simply because it claims to be, is to ignore the claims of the others. More than that, one of them may get dubbed ‘the real person’ because of the countertransference of the therapist whose educated theory demands that there be one real person. Phenomena that doesn’t fit our assumptions make us nervous. There are exceptional people whose ability to call up ‘other persons within’ is regarded as a gift. I am thinking of the acting profession for example. The actor isn’t just someone who can modify his behaviour at will. The good actor gets inside the character, in fact, becomes the character. This has nothing to do with an act of conscious will, it is a distinct movement of the psyche from one person to another. And it has been known for an actor to get stuck in one of his parts, so that he begins to walk around in daily life with the distinct feeing of being Hamlet, for example. Then there is the novelist who finds herself captured by her characters so that they start to write the story. But perhaps the best example of a multiple-personality-type as a stunning capability is the ‘impersonator’. Just think of Peter Sellers. Now there was a man who could transform himself in the most remarkable way. Each new person he became had an incredible self-consistency. Whatever that character did or said was completely in-character; every nuance of accent, style and unconscious gesture was perfectly consistent. Each character was a complete person; and with Peter Sellers there were literally dozens and dozens of them. He once remarked of himself that he didn’t know who he really was. He must have felt he was inadequate; an inadequacy based, perhaps, on the requirement in our society that one be a single responsible and consistent entity. Theory has it that the true ‘multiple’ is pathological because the dissociation between the ‘persons’ renders them relatively incapable of being aware that the others exist or of remembering what they have said or done. There is no consistent sense of ’self’. So that when he is ‘Joe’ he can’t remember what he has done as ‘Fred’. There can be whole stretches of time that get lost, because Fred’s memory is not Joe’s memory. Most inconvenient of course. It is fairly well established that aetiology of multiple personality is to be found in certain traumatic conditions in childhood. The infant psyche splits in order to be someone else who doesn’t have the pain. It therefore doesn’t want to connect with the one who carries it. Such splitting is an act of repression and a way of saving one’s life. Granted that such conditions are ‘negative’, that is, inimical to life, but it must be remembered that the child’s solution to it is a creative act. The child is using an ability that the soul already has – that we each have. It is true that the wonderful childhood solution to the problem of pain eventually becomes a problem itself – but don’t let’s get stuck on that. In one way, the ‘multiple’ has an enormous advantage. They have fully realised an essential ability of which most of us are only dimly aware. We have only a watered down version we call ‘our moods’. All these consideration raise very important questions – profound questions of identity: everything we mean when we ask, ‘who am I ?’ he real solution to the ‘multiple’ who is having difficulty is not to come at it from the idea of unifying the personality, or of finding the ‘real person’ or of ‘personality integration’ – but rather of developing each of the personalities to their fullest extent, treating each one with respect as a complete person in themselves, realising fully the depth of their differences. On the way they will face and live through those traumas of childhood – you don’t have to search for them. And the various persons will get to know each other better, without trying to integrate them. Eventually they all become a very rich family. For the rest of us unfortunately normal people, perhaps we should give a little more credit to our ordinary moods. At any rate, whenever we think of human rights perhaps we should at least remember that moods are people too.      Stanley                                      November

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Response:

Dear Dayzie, As usual, I find your thoughts to be cogent.  I esp. like the question of whether a person can look back on the manifestation of anger as having been against his/her will.  People do say things like, "I’m sorry.  I was just angry at the time."  I think maybe when "normal" people say that, it could possibly be taken to mean that they recognize that they were triggered and made the other person the brunt of their own issues.   In the regard, St. Basil’s point of view makes absolute sense – one is so blinded by one’s own triggered feelings that they lash out rather than deal w/the feelings directly within themselves.  It’s so uncomfortable to confront feelings such as pain, fear, sadness, that it comes out as anger. For a long time, I have had the strong sense that in many if not most or even all cases, anger lies atop something deeper.  It can be complicated – because it can overlie something that is very close to anger, such as a sense of injustice, for example.  But then, see, the sense of injustice is therefore connected to other emotions such as pain, sadness, etc. – and if one focuses on the anger, one misses the other feelings, which perhaps make one feel more vulnerable. Just my own thoughts offered here – throw away what doesn’t make sense to you.  Oh, and for whatever it’s worth – I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers) – same as w/the question of "mind," as in, what does that mean? Best to you – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is the author saying that even ‘normal people’ (singulars) can be found to be distinctly separate from many of their own moods such as anger; periodically experiencing Anger, for example, (as a part/person/mood) as coming forth to express against their will? Another question would be: Has this expression (of Anger for example) become found to have been manifested against their will when they look back and try to own it as their ‘own’ unfortunate behavior? "I’m sorry, I was Angry. I didn’t mean that." Then ‘who’ did? hehehe   St Basil once said Anger is a kind of  temporary insanity.  A mood? A part? A person within a person who is just as angry as the last time Anger came out? Maybe St Basil knew that his own anger was so out of character to himself that he described it as a type of insanity to justify his *own* distinctly-not-him behavior which overtook/influenced/acted against his will. Everyone blows up at some point leaving a trail of hurtful words and other extreme behaviors and voiced opinions which they soon regret. This ‘regret’ for us, specifically when we look back on a part’s activities and realize what (s)he has said/done, is much the same as any person’s tendency to ‘look back’ at the way they insulted a good friend, coworker or family member might be. "I’m sorry, I was angry." could easily been said "I’m sorry, it was Anger." <g If the author’s assumption is that everyone has parts residing in what we’ve learned to identify as just moods, then I was right; my T has parts too (LOL) and like I told her, if she’d just let her guard down and allow another T to guide her into her own world of compartmentalized ‘moods’, she too will discover that she has personalities (moods) who influence her behavior in rl. I think a perfect example of this is how T’s have been trained to shut off their own emotions (moods!) and personal issues while in session. Countertransferrence is a no-no so do they not dissociate to a certain extent their own moods/feelings/opinions/triggers when dealing with their clients? Maybe our T (for example) is an even more skilled and developed multiple than we are in the sense that she *can* survey and supervise her parts/moods/feelings when she’s being ‘professional’ thus not allowing these parts/moods/feelings to interfere with the work before her. The lesser skilled multiple finds herself at work and less capable (even *not* capable) at times from separating these parts/moods from interfering with her work and interactions. Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm….   Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – was sent this recently so i asked stanly if i could repost it here at asd he gave me permission to do so so here it is …food thought     iain (a bear of little brain)                                    Tuesday 27, November, 2001 Newsletter No 29      MOODS ARE PEOPLE TOO ! From what has become known as ‘multiple personality syndrome’ it is very interesting to speculate and wonder if what we call our ordinary moods are not personalities too; that perhaps what we call the changing moods of daily life are really ‘multiples’ who have been neglected, each mood a person who has been de-personalised as it were, and just given a generic label: a mood. Maybe we just don’t credit each passing mood with a name and being of its own. They are thus less clearly recognisable and, as such, we fail to recognise the distinctiveness of each mood; how it has a life of its own – its own memory, its own view of the world, its own interpretation of the past and future; how each time a certain mood returns it is exactly the same as the last time it visited us – like a well known friend whose character is always the same. Why would it change, it’s exactly the same person as before! Depersonalisation is the name of the game in modern psychology. This may sound a strange thing to say when we think of all the therapeutic methodologies and popular books on psychology that stress the development of the person. The sanctity of the human person is something we all know about. But we make the enormous assumption that there is only one real person to each visible human body. You never hear it said that the goal of therapy is to develop one’s personalities – all of them ! It is the exceptional that is interesting in any kind of research. In the sciences it is the exception to the agreed upon laws of nature that lead to a new and more comprehensive theory. This is no less true in the world of the psyche – it is the odd-ball that is interesting, psychologically. We call the ‘multiple personality’ a ‘dissociative disorder’. But if we step outside the label however, the condition demands we ask: what is the true nature of ‘multiple’ from the viewpoint of the human soul. Simply to regard any one of the multiples as the real one and the rest as ‘alters’ or ’sub-personalities’ simply pulls this unusual phenomena into the old conceptual framework. Trouble is it doesn’t fit. To make it fit we have to add attributes to the phenomena that aren’t really observable. For example, there is often nothing about any of the personalities which distinguishes them as being more real than any of the others. To assume that one of them is, simply because it claims to be, is to ignore the claims of the others. More than that, one of them may get dubbed ‘the real person’ because of the countertransference of the therapist whose educated theory demands that there be one real person. Phenomena that doesn’t fit our assumptions make us nervous. There are exceptional people whose ability to call up ‘other persons within’ is regarded as a gift. I am thinking of the acting profession for example. The actor isn’t just someone who can modify his behaviour at will. The good actor gets inside the character, in fact, becomes the character. This has nothing to do with an act of conscious will, it is a distinct movement of the psyche from one person to another. And it has been known for an actor to get stuck in one of his parts, so that he begins to walk around in daily life with the distinct feeing of being Hamlet, for example. Then there is the novelist who finds herself captured by her characters so that they start to write the story. But perhaps the best example of a multiple-personality-type as a stunning capability is the ‘impersonator’. Just think of Peter Sellers. Now there was a man who could transform himself in the most remarkable way. Each new person he became had an incredible self-consistency. Whatever that character did or said was completely in-character; every nuance of accent, style and unconscious gesture was perfectly consistent. Each character was a complete person; and with Peter Sellers there were literally dozens and dozens of them. He once remarked of himself that he didn’t know who he really was. He must have felt he was inadequate; an inadequacy based, perhaps, on the requirement in our society that one be a single responsible and consistent entity. Theory has it that the true ‘multiple’ is pathological because the dissociation between the ‘persons’ renders them relatively incapable of being aware that the others exist or of remembering what they have said or done. There is no consistent sense of ’self’. So that when he is ‘Joe’ he can’t remember what he has done as ‘Fred’. There can be whole stretches of time that get lost,

… read more »

Response:

We’ve had a day to think over some of these things. And it is mostly _my_ opinion only. Scherri has some different views. Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm….

I don’t know whether everyone else has multiple parts, but I have noticed discrepancies in what a lot of supposedly singular ppl do and say, from one time to another. Maybe there are different parts of the subc*nsc*ous which have an effect on the supposedly singular person. But are the moods ppl… Is there also (apart from the other factors Dayzie mentioned) an independent sense of identity for each mood? While there are a number of things which may act as a tr*gg*r on all of us, I’ve found that each of our moods and reactions may be different even though the st*mulus is the same. Often I find Scherri or Clarity telling me to calm down. Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie

they seemed much more organised than anything I’ve written.

…. — http://homepagesDOTparadise.net.nz/morganas/ AntiSpam: Replace DOT with .      Remove all other capitals "…And if only I could remember these dreams.. I know they’re trying to tell me … something."

Response:

Thank you Beauty for your thoughts re: moods are people too. Everything you said made sense and I guess I needed your insight to help get my runaway train back on track. HAHA!   Food for thought and giggles… I think maybe when "normal" people say that, it could possibly be taken to mean that they recognize that they were triggered and made the other person the brunt of their own issues.  

I get it! ‘Triggers’ are people too!  hahahaha! Sorry, being silly. But yes, I appreciate what you went on to say…. For a long time, I have had the strong sense that in many if not most or even all cases, anger lies atop something deeper.  It can be complicated – because it can overlie something that is very close to anger

*I* am not in touch with my anger. Not by a long shot. However, in observing my parts who seem easily triggered into anger, yes, it’s obvious that it’s almost a decoy or a protective response to otherwise overwhelming and complex ‘feelings’ underneath. In fact, I was truely delighted to discover recently in thp’y that one of my dayzies’ blinding anger was just that… a response to a scenerio which I never, ever before recognized as a very gr*ve trigger for many little ones. (I hesitate to get too specific but this ‘response’ has been going on for many, many, many years while I sat dumbfounded at [what I thought was 'my'] behavior.) It wasn’t until I said "Heh! What on earth are you doing this for?!" that she finally asked me to look at a group of little ones. Whala! She explained exactly why and how her anger was used to protect them. (A massive revelation to me for once.) Scenerio presents itself, she steps in and (sometimes literally) obliterates the the threat while using anger, and the little ones can breath again once she gets the coast clear. Simply amazing Beauty. Simply nearly miraculous this protective reaction of hers turned out to be. (Not so fun for ‘me’ and those involved though!) [snip] if one focuses on the anger, one misses the other feelings, which perhaps make one feel more vulnerable.

Yikes…. interesting thought on that!…. to continue using the same example above; if one part is triggered by utter fear and potential fl*shb*cks etc, ‘another’ part responds in anger as a protective alert, and what the hubby or family may ‘witness’ is anger, but underneath the anger (one alter) *is* protecting the fear (of other alters), literally in this case, so I agree that your theory is the case in many anger-outburst situations. It’s also fascinating to see this in a m*lt*ple situation because it shows the break down of what you described. It happens to everyone (anger protecting deeper more vulnerable feelings) and so… now I’m thinking…. what does the ‘absense’ of anger mean? (moi) LOL. I loved the following line…. I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers)

HA! I love when you write like this. )  (But intelligent ppl’s is another thing we thrive on for safety. Or something like that. I can feel a shift inside and if I start going belly-up with you too, don’t mind me. I’m just losing strength but it’s not a bad thing, it’s good. Though I’m not sure T would agree, hahaha! Okay, I better shush!). Thank you for provocative input once again. Dayzie – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear Dayzie, As usual, I find your thoughts to be cogent.  I esp. like the question of whether a person can look back on the manifestation of anger as having been against his/her will.  People do say things like, "I’m sorry.  I was just angry at the time."  I think maybe when "normal" people say that, it could possibly be taken to mean that they recognize that they were triggered and made the other person the brunt of their own issues.   In the regard, St. Basil’s point of view makes absolute sense – one is so blinded by one’s own triggered feelings that they lash out rather than deal w/the feelings directly within themselves.  It’s so uncomfortable to confront feelings such as pain, fear, sadness, that it comes out as anger. For a long time, I have had the strong sense that in many if not most or even all cases, anger lies atop something deeper.  It can be complicated – because it can overlie something that is very close to anger, such as a sense of injustice, for example.  But then, see, the sense of injustice is therefore connected to other emotions such as pain, sadness, etc. – and if one focuses on the anger, one misses the other feelings, which perhaps make one feel more vulnerable. Just my own thoughts offered here – throw away what doesn’t make sense to you.  Oh, and for whatever it’s worth – I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers) – same as w/the question of "mind," as in, what does that mean? Best to you – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Is the author saying that even ‘normal people’ (singulars) can be found to be distinctly separate from many of their own moods such as anger; periodically experiencing Anger, for example, (as a part/person/mood) as coming forth to express against their will? Another question would be: Has this expression (of Anger for example) become found to have been manifested against their will when they look back and try to own it as their ‘own’ unfortunate behavior? "I’m sorry, I was Angry. I didn’t mean that." Then ‘who’ did? hehehe   St Basil once said Anger is a kind of  temporary insanity.  A mood? A part? A person within a person who is just as angry as the last time Anger came out? Maybe St Basil knew that his own anger was so out of character to himself that he described it as a type of insanity to justify his *own* distinctly-not-him behavior which overtook/influenced/acted against his will. Everyone blows up at some point leaving a trail of hurtful words and other extreme behaviors and voiced opinions which they soon regret. This ‘regret’ for us, specifically when we look back on a part’s activities and realize what (s)he has said/done, is much the same as any person’s tendency to ‘look back’ at the way they insulted a good friend, coworker or family member might be. "I’m sorry, I was angry." could easily been said "I’m sorry, it was Anger." <g If the author’s assumption is that everyone has parts residing in what we’ve learned to identify as just moods, then I was right; my T has parts too (LOL) and like I told her, if she’d just let her guard down and allow another T to guide her into her own world of compartmentalized ‘moods’, she too will discover that she has personalities (moods) who influence her behavior in rl. I think a perfect example of this is how T’s have been trained to shut off their own emotions (moods!) and personal issues while in session. Countertransferrence is a no-no so do they not dissociate to a certain extent their own moods/feelings/opinions/triggers when dealing with their clients? Maybe our T (for example) is an even more skilled and developed multiple than we are in the sense that she *can* survey and supervise her parts/moods/feelings when she’s being ‘professional’ thus not allowing these parts/moods/feelings to interfere with the work before her. The lesser skilled multiple finds herself at work and less capable (even *not* capable) at times from separating these parts/moods from interfering with her work and interactions. Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm….   Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie was sent this recently so i asked stanly if i could repost it here at asd he gave me permission to do so so here it is …food thought     iain (a bear of little brain)                                    Tuesday 27, November, 2001 Newsletter No 29      MOODS ARE PEOPLE TOO ! From what has become known as ‘multiple personality syndrome’ it is very interesting to speculate and wonder if what we call our ordinary moods are not personalities too; that perhaps what we call the changing moods of daily life are really ‘multiples’ who have been neglected, each mood a person who has been de-personalised as it were, and just given a generic label: a mood. Maybe we just don’t credit each passing mood with a name and being of its own. They are thus less clearly recognisable and, as such, we fail to recognise the distinctiveness of each mood; how it has a life of its own – its own memory, its own view of the world, its own interpretation of the past and future; how each time a certain mood returns it is exactly the same as the last time it visited us – like a well known friend whose character is always the same. Why would it change, it’s exactly the same person

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Response:

We’ve had a day to think over some of these things. And it is mostly _my_ opinion only. Scherri has some different views.

im not sure what i think, most of my thoughts on this are tentitive and exploritory in that im thinking things and then thinking, do i agree with that thought i just thought of? sometimes i do sometimes i dont an when i dont know which is who an what is why i just go off and find a smackeral of hunney to consolemy self with <giggle Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm…. I don’t know whether everyone else has multiple parts, but I have noticed discrepancies in what a lot of supposedly singular ppl do and say, from one time to another. Maybe there are different parts of the subc*nsc*ous which have an effect on the supposedly singular person.

yes i knotice discrepencys in myself at time its almost as if my experiences have hardwired behaiviour, thoughts, feelings and an overall tone (mood) to situations. these "me’s" are at odds to who i think i am, for a suposidly singular identity disorderd person i seem to exibit patterns reminisent of normal (mp) ppl’s. its like im a chamelian triing to blend in to a current situation yet at other times i know im being someone id rather not be. But are the moods ppl… Is there also (apart from the other factors Dayzie mentioned) an independent sense of identity for each mood?

im leaning towards the "i dont think so" camp. in that, if im being a real bitch, im still me dont look jill, its a pun <grin While there are a number of things which may act as a tr*gg*r on all of us, I’ve found that each of our moods and reactions may be different even though the st*mulus is the same. Often I find Scherri or Clarity telling me to calm down. Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie they seemed much more organised than anything I’ve written.

i think everyone in this thread is putting forth good thoughts on this idea iain (a bear of little brain) — behind every good fish  is a bike with a flat tyre – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ….

Response:

Hello Dayzie – [massive snip here, plus snip at end, of original article] — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I loved the following line…. I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers) HA! I love when you write like this. )  (But intelligent ppl’s is another thing we thrive on for safety. Or something like that. I can feel a shift inside and if I start going belly-up with you too, don’t mind me. I’m just losing strength but it’s not a bad thing, it’s good. Though I’m not sure T would agree, hahaha! Okay, I better shush!). Thank you for provocative input once again.

Oh, Dayzie – haven’t we made it clear that we often greatly appreciate the way you center in on thoughts and issues?  And – as for intelligence – ain’t there all varieties?  That’s what I keep trying to tell my son – there are all kinds of "smart," and all kinds of brilliance.  It’s just that our society seems limited in recognizing things.  Also – just a plea: I am not trying to be a freak or a show-off, I’m just being how I am.  Not that I felt accused by you, but I have felt accused often in my life.  I can’t help how I was built and what my interests turned out to be (words, ideas . . . and other things, too, but the words and ideas thing seems to get some people going sometimes).  Anyhow, I’d be interested to know about the losing strength thing if it ever becomes possible to say anything more. Very best – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dayzie Dear Dayzie, As usual, I find your thoughts to be cogent.  I esp. like the question of whether a person can look back on the manifestation of anger as having been against his/her will.  People do say things like, "I’m sorry.  I was just angry at the time."  I think maybe when "normal" people say that, it could possibly be taken to mean that they recognize that they were triggered and made the other person the brunt of their own issues.   In the regard, St. Basil’s point of view makes absolute sense – one is so blinded by one’s own triggered feelings that they lash out rather than deal w/the feelings directly within themselves.  It’s so uncomfortable to confront feelings such as pain, fear, sadness, that it comes out as anger. For a long time, I have had the strong sense that in many if not most or even all cases, anger lies atop something deeper.  It can be complicated – because it can overlie something that is very close to anger, such as a sense of injustice, for example.  But then, see, the sense of injustice is therefore connected to other emotions such as pain, sadness, etc. – and if one focuses on the anger, one misses the other feelings, which perhaps make one feel more vulnerable. Just my own thoughts offered here – throw away what doesn’t make sense to you.  Oh, and for whatever it’s worth – I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers) – same as w/the question of "mind," as in, what does that mean? Best to you – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Is the author saying that even ‘normal people’ (singulars) can be found to be distinctly separate from many of their own moods such as anger; periodically experiencing Anger, for example, (as a part/person/mood) as coming forth to express against their will? Another question would be: Has this expression (of Anger for example) become found to have been manifested against their will when they look back and try to own it as their ‘own’ unfortunate behavior? "I’m sorry, I was Angry. I didn’t mean that." Then ‘who’ did? hehehe   St Basil once said Anger is a kind of  temporary insanity.  A mood? A part? A person within a person who is just as angry as the last time Anger came out? Maybe St Basil knew that his own anger was so out of character to himself that he described it as a type of insanity to justify his *own* distinctly-not-him behavior which overtook/influenced/acted against his will. Everyone blows up at some point leaving a trail of hurtful words and other extreme behaviors and voiced opinions which they soon regret. This ‘regret’ for us, specifically when we look back on a part’s activities and realize what (s)he has said/done, is much the same as any person’s tendency to ‘look back’ at the way they insulted a good friend, coworker or family member might be. "I’m sorry, I was angry." could easily been said "I’m sorry, it was Anger." <g If the author’s assumption is that everyone has parts residing in what we’ve learned to identify as just moods, then I was right; my T has parts too (LOL) and like I told her, if she’d just let her guard down and allow another T to guide her into her own world of compartmentalized ‘moods’, she too will discover that she has personalities (moods) who influence her behavior in rl. I think a perfect example of this is how T’s have been trained to shut off their own emotions (moods!) and personal issues while in session. Countertransferrence is a no-no so do they not dissociate to a certain extent their own moods/feelings/opinions/triggers when dealing with their clients? Maybe our T (for example) is an even more skilled and developed multiple than we are in the sense that she *can* survey and supervise her parts/moods/feelings when she’s being ‘professional’ thus not allowing these parts/moods/feelings to interfere with the work before her. The lesser skilled multiple finds herself at work and less capable (even *not* capable) at times from separating these parts/moods from interfering with her work and interactions. Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm….   Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie was sent this recently so i asked stanly if i could repost it here at asd he gave me permission to do so so here it is …food thought     iain (a bear of little brain)                                    Tuesday 27, November, 2001 Newsletter No 29      MOODS ARE PEOPLE TOO ! From what has become known as ‘multiple personality syndrome’ it is very interesting to speculate and wonder if what we call our ordinary moods are not personalities too; that perhaps what we call the changing moods of daily life are really ‘multiples’ who have been neglected, each mood a person who has been de-personalised as it were, and just given a generic label: a mood. Maybe we just don’t credit each passing mood with a name and being of its own. They are thus less clearly recognisable and, as such, we fail to recognise the distinctiveness of each mood; how it has a life of its own – its own memory, its own view of the world, its own interpretation of the past and future; how each time a certain mood returns it is exactly the same as the last time it visited us – like a well known friend whose character is always the same. Why would it change, it’s exactly the same person as before! Depersonalisation is the name of the game in modern psychology. This may sound a strange thing to say when we think of all the therapeutic methodologies and popular books on psychology that stress the development of the person. The sanctity of the human person is something we all know about. But we make the enormous assumption that there is only one real person to each visible human body. You never hear it said that the goal of therapy is to develop one’s personalities – all of them ! It is the exceptional that is interesting in any kind of research. In the sciences it is the exception to the agreed upon laws of nature that lead to a new and more comprehensive theory. This is no less true in the world of the psyche – it is the odd-ball that is interesting, psychologically. We call the ‘multiple personality’ a ‘dissociative disorder’. But if we step outside the label however, the condition demands we ask: what is the true nature of ‘multiple’ from the viewpoint of the human soul. Simply to regard any one of the multiples as the real one and the rest as ‘alters’ or ’sub-personalities’ simply pulls this unusual phenomena into the old conceptual framework. Trouble is it

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Response:

Dayzie wrote…

. HA! I love when you write like this. )  (But intelligent ppl’s is another thing we thrive on for safety. Or something like that. I can feel a shift inside and if I start going belly-up with you too, don’t mind me. I’m just losing strength but it’s not a bad thing, it’s good. Beauty wrote… Also – just a plea: I am not trying to be a freak or a show-off, I’m just being how I am.  Not that I felt accused by you, but I have felt accused often in my life.

   ruhroh! Remembering now, a long time ago when we were very new here I think you said about you being expected to be intelligent. We’s *so* very sorry we complimented that. Very very sorry. Hard to keep everyone’s soft spots rememberd.      And we have our own soft spot w/liking so much, ppl who are uh, you know. We’re sorry beauty. Please forgive if we forget these things (others’ soft spots) again for anyone here in asd. Would never intentionally do that. (referenced from top quote)… Anyhow, I’d be interested to know about the losing strength thing if it ever becomes possible to say anything more.

Ok, ‘losing strength’ meant *I* was trying to stay with the post but because we (this isn’t going to be easy for me, k?) started switching to one who very much looks up to you (we’ve mentioned that to you before?) There are others here too whom we admire for their uh, hmmm… how can I say it…. ability to [trying not to repeat my offense] to… aw heck, it’s a type of transferrence issue I *think*, ok? It is in no way negative, in fact the very opposite, like I said, ‘look up to you’ but isn’t that ok to do with any acquaintance? There are ppl who challenge us etc. and we admire others’ qualities and that is like what happens with you for us. So, the on/e(s?) who are intrigued with your qualities and ways with words was forcing her way forward as we read your post and I didn’t want to switch because that would mean she would start to go belly-up and rush to your feet rather than allow me to continue on with our dialogue about ‘moods are ppl too’. <eyeballing that pile of sand to stick my head in, Dayzie I’m sorry beauty. never wanna do nithing to bother you ever ok? this happens with some ppl we know and it can get embarassing and awkward for us. wish we were just normal (exclamation point). Wish we could not have to have so many conflicting thoughts and feelings though in RL we glide through so undetected. Maybe someone in this ng knows what I’m saying and has some advise. I’m very open to any. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Dayzie – [massive snip here, plus snip at end, of original article] — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. I loved the following line…. I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers) HA! I love when you write like this. )  (But intelligent ppl’s is another thing we thrive on for safety. Or something like that. I can feel a shift inside and if I start going belly-up with you too, don’t mind me. I’m just losing strength but it’s not a bad thing, it’s good. Though I’m not sure T would agree, hahaha! Okay, I better shush!). Thank you for provocative input once again. Oh, Dayzie – haven’t we made it clear that we often greatly appreciate the way you center in on thoughts and issues?  And – as for intelligence – ain’t there all varieties?  That’s what I keep trying to tell my son – there are all kinds of "smart," and all kinds of brilliance.  It’s just that our society seems limited in recognizing things.  Also – just a plea: I am not trying to be a freak or a show-off, I’m just being how I am.  Not that I felt accused by you, but I have felt accused often in my life.  I can’t help how I was built and what my interests turned out to be (words, ideas . . . and other things, too, but the words and ideas thing seems to get some people going sometimes).  Anyhow, I’d be interested to know about the losing strength thing if it ever becomes possible to say anything more. Very best – Beauty. Dayzie Dear Dayzie, As usual, I find your thoughts to be cogent.  I esp. like the question of whether a person can look back on the manifestation of anger as having been against his/her will.  People do say things like, "I’m sorry.  I was just angry at the time."  I think maybe when "normal" people say that, it could possibly be taken to mean that they recognize that they were triggered and made the other person the brunt of their own issues.   In the regard, St. Basil’s point of view makes absolute sense – one is so blinded by one’s own triggered feelings that they lash out rather than deal w/the feelings directly within themselves.  It’s so uncomfortable to confront feelings such as pain, fear, sadness, that it comes out as anger. For a long time, I have had the strong sense that in many if not most or even all cases, anger lies atop something deeper.  It can be complicated – because it can overlie something that is very close to anger, such as a sense of injustice, for example.  But then, see, the sense of injustice is therefore connected to other emotions such as pain, sadness, etc. – and if one focuses on the anger, one misses the other feelings, which perhaps make one feel more vulnerable. Just my own thoughts offered here – throw away what doesn’t make sense to you.  Oh, and for whatever it’s worth – I don’t think that moods are people, too.  I think, actually, that the whole language of identity is much more complicated and metaphorical than is practical to deal with most of the time (which is why we have philosophers) – same as w/the question of "mind," as in, what does that mean? Best to you – Beauty. — To email me, remove "nospam" from my address. Is the author saying that even ‘normal people’ (singulars) can be found to be distinctly separate from many of their own moods such as anger; periodically experiencing Anger, for example, (as a part/person/mood) as coming forth to express against their will? Another question would be: Has this expression (of Anger for example) become found to have been manifested against their will when they look back and try to own it as their ‘own’ unfortunate behavior? "I’m sorry, I was Angry. I didn’t mean that." Then ‘who’ did? hehehe   St Basil once said Anger is a kind of  temporary insanity.  A mood? A part? A person within a person who is just as angry as the last time Anger came out? Maybe St Basil knew that his own anger was so out of character to himself that he described it as a type of insanity to justify his *own* distinctly-not-him behavior which overtook/influenced/acted against his will. Everyone blows up at some point leaving a trail of hurtful words and other extreme behaviors and voiced opinions which they soon regret. This ‘regret’ for us, specifically when we look back on a part’s activities and realize what (s)he has said/done, is much the same as any person’s tendency to ‘look back’ at the way they insulted a good friend, coworker or family member might be. "I’m sorry, I was angry." could easily been said "I’m sorry, it was Anger." <g If the author’s assumption is that everyone has parts residing in what we’ve learned to identify as just moods, then I was right; my T has parts too (LOL) and like I told her, if she’d just let her guard down and allow another T to guide her into her own world of compartmentalized ‘moods’, she too will discover that she has personalities (moods) who influence her behavior in rl. I think a perfect example of this is how T’s have been trained to shut off their own emotions (moods!) and personal issues while in session. Countertransferrence is a no-no so do they not dissociate to a certain extent their own moods/feelings/opinions/triggers when dealing with their clients? Maybe our T (for example) is an even more skilled and developed multiple than we are in the sense that she *can* survey and supervise her parts/moods/feelings when she’s being ‘professional’ thus not allowing these parts/moods/feelings to interfere with the work before her. The lesser skilled multiple finds herself at work and less capable (even *not* capable) at times from separating these parts/moods from interfering with her work and interactions. Just thinking outloud here. I could be way off track but there’s a sensing here that I’ve come to suspect concerning everyone having parts. T told me that the difference is that she doesn’t have the accompanying memory sectors, amnesia and other classic signs of multipl*city. Hmmm….   Just some unorganized thoughts, Dayzie

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Response:

 was sent this recently so i asked stanly if i could repost it here at asd he gave me permission to do so so here it is …food thought      iain (a bear of little brain)                                     Tuesday 27, November, 2001 Newsletter No 29       MOODS ARE PEOPLE TOO ! From what has become known as ‘multiple personality syndrome’ it is very interesting to speculate and wonder if what we call our ordinary moods are not personalities too; that perhaps what we call the changing moods of daily life are really ‘multiples’ who have been neglected, each mood a person who has been de-personalised as it were, and just given a generic label: a mood. Maybe we just don’t credit each passing mood with a name and being of its own. They are thus less clearly recognisable and, as such, we fail to recognise the distinctiveness of each mood; how it has a life of its own – its own memory, its own view of the world, its own interpretation of the past and future; how each time a certain mood returns it is exactly the same as the last time it visited us – like a well known friend whose character is always the same. Why would it change, it’s exactly the same person as before! Depersonalisation is the name of the game in modern psychology. This may sound a strange thing to say when we think of all the therapeutic methodologies and popular books on psychology that stress the development of the person. The sanctity of the human person is something we all know about. But we make the enormous assumption that there is only one real person to each visible human body. You never hear it said that the goal of therapy is to develop one’s personalities – all of them ! It is the exceptional that is interesting in any kind of research. In the sciences it is the exception to the agreed upon laws of nature that lead to a new and more comprehensive theory. This is no less true in the world of the psyche – it is the odd-ball that is interesting, psychologically. We call the ‘multiple personality’ a ‘dissociative disorder’. But if we step outside the label however, the condition demands we ask: what is the true nature of ‘multiple’ from the viewpoint of the human soul. Simply to regard any one of the multiples as the real one and the rest as ‘alters’ or ’sub-personalities’ simply pulls this unusual phenomena into the old conceptual framework. Trouble is it doesn’t fit. To make it fit we have to add attributes to the phenomena that aren’t really observable. For example, there is often nothing about any of the personalities which distinguishes them as being more real than any of the others. To assume that one of them is, simply because it claims to be, is to ignore the claims of the others. More than that, one of them may get dubbed ‘the real person’ because of the countertransference of the therapist whose educated theory demands that there be one real person. Phenomena that doesn’t fit our assumptions make us nervous. There are exceptional people whose ability to call up ‘other persons within’ is regarded as a gift. I am thinking of the acting profession for example. The actor isn’t just someone who can modify his behaviour at will. The good actor gets inside the character, in fact, becomes the character. This has nothing to do with an act of conscious will, it is a distinct movement of the psyche from one person to another. And it has been known for an actor to get stuck in one of his parts, so that he begins to walk around in daily life with the distinct feeing of being Hamlet, for example. Then there is the novelist who finds herself captured by her characters so that they start to write the story. But perhaps the best example of a multiple-personality-type as a stunning capability is the ‘impersonator’. Just think of Peter Sellers. Now there was a man who could transform himself in the most remarkable way. Each new person he became had an incredible self-consistency. Whatever that character did or said was completely in-character; every nuance of accent, style and unconscious gesture was perfectly consistent. Each character was a complete person; and with Peter Sellers there were literally dozens and dozens of them. He once remarked of himself that he didn’t know who he really was. He must have felt he was inadequate; an inadequacy based, perhaps, on the requirement in our society that one be a single responsible and consistent entity. Theory has it that the true ‘multiple’ is pathological because the dissociation between the ‘persons’ renders them relatively incapable of being aware that the others exist or of remembering what they have said or done. There is no consistent sense of ’self’. So that when he is ‘Joe’ he can’t remember what he has done as ‘Fred’. There can be whole stretches of time that get lost, because Fred’s memory is not Joe’s memory. Most inconvenient of course. It is fairly well established that aetiology of multiple personality is to be found in certain traumatic conditions in childhood. The infant psyche splits in order to be someone else who doesn’t have the pain. It therefore doesn’t want to connect with the one who carries it. Such splitting is an act of repression and a way of saving one’s life. Granted that such conditions are ‘negative’, that is, inimical to life, but it must be remembered that the child’s solution to it is a creative act. The child is using an ability that the soul already has – that we each have. It is true that the wonderful childhood solution to the problem of pain eventually becomes a problem itself – but don’t let’s get stuck on that. In one way, the ‘multiple’ has an enormous advantage. They have fully realised an essential ability of which most of us are only dimly aware. We have only a watered down version we call ‘our moods’. All these consideration raise very important questions – profound questions of identity: everything we mean when we ask, ‘who am I ?’ he real solution to the ‘multiple’ who is having difficulty is not to come at it from the idea of unifying the personality, or of finding the ‘real person’ or of ‘personality integration’ – but rather of developing each of the personalities to their fullest extent, treating each one with respect as a complete person in themselves, realising fully the depth of their differences. On the way they will face and live through those traumas of childhood – you don’t have to search for them. And the various persons will get to know each other better, without trying to integrate them. Eventually they all become a very rich family. For the rest of us unfortunately normal people, perhaps we should give a little more credit to our ordinary moods. At any rate, whenever we think of human rights perhaps we should at least remember that moods are people too.       Stanley                                       November 01       The Association for Analytical Psychology Incorporated CH/644399       Coordinator, Matthew Olsen        1a Woodbridge Rd.CHRISTCHURCH        Phone : (03) 332 9171             Email Stanley at             Archetypal             Psychology             Site  Brian’s             Archetypal             Psychology             Site The C.G.Jung             Page The Jung             Lexicon

Response:

Hi Rita, In a way my anxiety attacks will never be completely under control. I have PTSD and the recurrent intrusive thoughts (which start a cycle of thoughts and feelings) which I get are the cause of a lot of my anxiety. There seems to be no way to stop them (a lot of doctors, some very good ones, have tried).

I take it you have tried therapy. I wonder what therapies you tried. Was *cognitve therapy* or RET among them? Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – The best that I can do is to either take enough medication so that the thoughts don’t bother me (like now) or use a "kicker" like nicotine to break the cycle temporarily so the anxiety doesn’t get to bad. One thought I have is that I’m going through this for nothing. Once my body/mind adjusts to the new benzo level the intrusive thoughts will have as much power as before. I tried explaining to the smoking doc about this and why I was different for her "normal" patients but she doesn’t understand. Few people and fewer doctors do understand about the multifaceted aspects of PTSD. Tried the patch but it gave me a bad rash. Wasn’t what I was using nicotine for anyway, gave me a steady dose when what I needed was occasional "jolts". Maybe I should just stay "benzo’ed out" and at least stay out of everyone’s hair. Thanks for the response, Larry L. Larry, you have my sympathy, my roomie (husband) and I stopped smoking January 15.   I have PD, he doesn’t.   Neither one of us had any problem because we used the patch.   I didn’t have to up any of my benzo’s or Effexor….just used the patch.   Neither one of us felt any side-effects at all, except for the normal one of wishing we could have a smoke here and there.  Joe had a salty taste in this mouth, and said he had weird dreams, but he wore the patch all night, whereas I took it off before I went to bed. I used the gum when it first came out and it didn’t impress me at all. The reason is because I needed something that worked in my system without me having to think about it.  With the gum, and I imagine the spray too, I would always be thinking, "should I take a hit now or wait a while?   Do I really need it or will the feeling go away?"  With the patch, you put it on, go about your business, and forget all about it I must have missed it, but did you give the patch a try?  Or is there some reason you can’t use it? Hang in there, Larry, and my advise is use what works best for you….everyone is an individual. BTW, is your anxiety/panic disorder under control?   If it’s not to the point where you want it to be, then maybe this is not the right time to stop smoking.   One thing at a time, my friend. Rita I’ve learned… that I can’t choose how I feel, but I can choose what I do about it.

Response:

Margrove writes: [snip], ptsd like many anxiety problems isn’t solved by using a cookbook of some therapy or some drug or some specific method of nuking ones head and eliminating memories. The adversity  that is the catalyst for these conditions and the preexisting characterological structures that are present to forment a disorder are all powerful issues and strong resistances to change. —–Which brings to mind the question: If an agoraphobic were suddenly to have a lapse of memeory, let’s say through a head injury, would that person still be agoraphobic, since they wouldn’t "remember" to be so?? –  Kinder

Definitely YES.  I.M.H.E. — mark brown

Response:

-Which brings to mind the question: If an agoraphobic were suddenly to have a lapse of memeory, let’s say through a head injury, would that person still be agoraphobic, since they wouldn’t "remember" to be so?? –  Kinder

no they wouldn’t-I have seen a few cases of head trauma, brain surgery for cancer, etc where the patient forgot their phobias or anxiety and went on without them-the personality structures that support these disorders was still intact so it is possible that in time they would have developed some symptoms, but they all were middle aged or older and I couldn’t follow their course LM

Response:

If a blow to the head would work and I even lost the good memories I would most definitely opt out of that cure.

I sometimes wonder if ad meds are akin to a blow to the head-I know ect is. From what I have seen the anxieties didn’t develop as such but some belief systems of perfection or embarassment or what if thinking still did so it is possible that in time some symptoms of vague anxieties may emerge but I didn’t see this. My neuro friends report same.

Response:

basicalt

what spastic fingers do to words is amazing…sorry for the typos it is disgusting. ptsd like many anxiety problems isn’t solved by using a cookbook of some therapy or some drug or some specific method of nuking ones head and eliminating memories. The adversity  that is the catalyst for these conditions and the preexisting characterological structures that are present to forment a disorder are all powerful issues and strong resistances to change. But one can change and one does all the time. It is a matter of finding the ways to effectuate changes that are more goal oriented. One may never forget the trauma, nor should they. But using loads of tools to learn how to deal with it and go past it is the goal. It is like chipping away at a big big rock that impedes your way. It may take very little swipes with a chisel or sledge hammer, but sooner or later you chip away enough of the stone to gain access to get past it. The stone remains but the hole in it allows passage. LM

Response:

Margrove writes: [snip], ptsd like many anxiety problems isn’t solved by using

a cookbook of some therapy or some drug or some specific method of nuking ones head and eliminating memories. The adversity  that is the catalyst for these conditions and the preexisting characterological structures that are present to forment a disorder are all powerful issues and strong resistances to change.

—–Which brings to mind the question: If an agoraphobic were suddenly to have a lapse of memeory, let’s say through a head injury, would that person still be agoraphobic, since they wouldn’t "remember" to be so?? –  Kinder

Response:

—–Which brings to mind the question: If an agoraphobic were suddenly to have a lapse of memeory, let’s say through a head injury, would that person still be agoraphobic, since they wouldn’t "remember" to be so?? –  Kinder

Great question.  I would like to know the answer to that also. Take care, Liz — Problems are only opportunities in work clothes.                            –Henry Kaiser

Response:

LM, that’s the trouble with combat related PTSD. There is (normally) no "one" trauma. It’s day after day of similar traumas, some more potent than others but many of them equal to that single one that causes PTSD in some and PA’s in many. Like a magic onion, you peel down to what you think is the core and "poof" you’ve got a whole new onion to peel. If you have never experienced an intrusive thought about how it smelled a few moments after your best friend was blown in two by a land mine then you have no idea of the power of these thoughts. Knowing why they are happening takes little of the sting out of them. I’ve tried a form of REBT and at least for me, it provided little help. Thanks though. If there is a better med with less side effects please tell me so I can inform my Pdoc. Larry L.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – you are saying nicotine is somewhat anxiolytic for you or interferes with ruminating thinking? Nicotine does a few things to brain amines and if this is so for you then there are some more potent dopaminergic monoamine oxidase ways of obtaining a better response. as for all forms of new therapy ptsd is very similar to any anxiety disorder in the sense that the panic attack is anxiogenic and self traumatizing meaning it acts as a trigger event and then becomes the trigger and the result simultaneously just like a traumatic event in a physical or psychological sense. REBT has a good track record with this in terms of moving past the trauma philosophicaly-one is not cured but can accept deal with and manage ones anxieties to a pretty good degree. Log on to www.rebt.org and give a whirl LM

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Margrove writes: [snip], ptsd like many anxiety problems isn’t solved by using a cookbook of some therapy or some drug or some specific method of nuking ones head and eliminating memories. The adversity  that is the catalyst for these conditions and the preexisting characterological structures that are present to forment a disorder are all powerful issues and strong resistances to change. —–Which brings to mind the question: If an agoraphobic were suddenly to have a lapse of memeory, let’s say through a head injury, would that person still be agoraphobic, since they wouldn’t "remember" to be so?? –  Kinder

My theory would be that it would redevelop. The loss of memory would trigger anxiety and then the predisposition for panic would come in to play leading to the learned behavior to avoid things that cause discomfort. If a blow to the head would work and I even lost the good memories I would most definitely opt out of that cure.  Hugs Thought Provoking Kinder ( I liked your picture) Charla

Response:

. If you have never experienced an intrusive thought about how it smelled a few moments after your best friend was blown in two by a land mine then you have no idea of the power of these thoughts.

sure I do in ptsd fear structures are basicalt the key to dealing with the situation. Fear structures consist of a netwrok of memory that includes information about the stimuli the responses to the stimuli and meaning associated with both The structure is a system designed for escape or avoidance.  In other anxiety disorders the anxiety becomes circumscribed so that one who is afraid of heights or elevations etc can escape the anxiety by avoiding the thing of height, but in ptsd in wartime one is in an uncontrollable scenario where the unpredictability of danger and the suddeness of trauma these events shatter the persons concept of what is safe or dangerous and how to discriminate between them. The fear memories become triggered continuously just like you remembering smells associated with violent acts of danger and the death of comrades and friends. This requires a very aggressive disputation of ones beliefs of tolerance to discomfort and stress-meaning, fairness, and order, self worth,anger all of these beliefs and self talk can be addressed systematicaly with a great deal of success. But it is dilligent and hard to stay the course since your memory and your response to it is fairly well habituated and possibly fueled by specific personality issues. I have had success with patients I rx-ed maoi’s and tca’s as well as ssri’s with benzos- I have also used combos of bupropion and tca’s or ssri’s when necessary-it really depends on the presenting symptoms and behaviors and the persons individual biology and genetics. I do not know what meds you have tried. I do know that meds with social support and a very well organized rebt protocol with a supportive and available shrink helps imeasurably.-Modifying pretrauma cognitive structures and post trauma responses is viable and possible prexisting inferential or personality issues not withstanding. all meds can affect the intrusive thinking and the free floating anxiety and panic attacks, slow down your hyper -responsiveness but none will change your avoidance if this is your main behavioral manifestation. hope this helps LM

Response:

Hi Rita, In a way my anxiety attacks will never be completely under control. I have PTSD and the recurrent intrusive thoughts (which start a cycle of thoughts and feelings) which I get are the cause of a lot of my anxiety. There seems to be no way to stop them (a lot of doctors, some very good ones, have tried). The best that I can do is to either take enough medication so that the thoughts don’t bother me (like now) or use a "kicker" like nicotine to break the cycle temporarily so the anxiety doesn’t get to bad. One thought I have is that I’m going through this for nothing. Once my body/mind adjusts to the new benzo level the intrusive thoughts will have as much power as before. I tried explaining to the smoking doc about this and why I was different for her "normal" patients but she doesn’t understand. Few people and fewer doctors do understand about the multifaceted aspects of PTSD. Tried the patch but it gave me a bad rash. Wasn’t what I was using nicotine for anyway, gave me a steady dose when what I needed was occasional "jolts". Maybe I should just stay "benzo’ed out" and at least stay out of everyone’s hair. Thanks for the response, Larry L.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Larry, you have my sympathy, my roomie (husband) and I stopped smoking January 15.   I have PD, he doesn’t.   Neither one of us had any problem because we used the patch.   I didn’t have to up any of my benzo’s or Effexor….just used the patch.   Neither one of us felt any side-effects at all, except for the normal one of wishing we could have a smoke here and there.  Joe had a salty taste in this mouth, and said he had weird dreams, but he wore the patch all night, whereas I took it off before I went to bed. I used the gum when it first came out and it didn’t impress me at all. The reason is because I needed something that worked in my system without me having to think about it.  With the gum, and I imagine the spray too, I would always be thinking, "should I take a hit now or wait a while?   Do I really need it or will the feeling go away?"  With the patch, you put it on, go about your business, and forget all about it I must have missed it, but did you give the patch a try?  Or is there some reason you can’t use it? Hang in there, Larry, and my advise is use what works best for you….everyone is an individual. BTW, is your anxiety/panic disorder under control?   If it’s not to the point where you want it to be, then maybe this is not the right time to stop smoking.   One thing at a time, my friend. Rita I’ve learned… that I can’t choose how I feel, but I can choose what I do about it.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Rita, I’ve tried so many different things over the past 12 years, all with the VA. Up until this point the combination of Klonopin and Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has worked as well or better than anything else. I’m convinced that I will never quit "smoking" in the sense that unless someone comes up with something better than nicotine (in a replacement form) it is the only thing that seems to break the cycle with the least side effects. Trouble is that I’m to a large extent stuck with the VA. I’m 100% service connected disabled so I get the best they have to offer, sometimes it isn’t enough. Larry L. Hi Larry, I do understand because part of my panic came from a couple of early childhood incidents that traumatized me forever.  I’m really thinking two things….first, if this doc doesn’t understand PTSD, then keep on looking until you find one who specializes in PTSD….I personally don’t think Klonopin is the drug of choice for what you have.  But I’m not a doctor.  Secondly, really, truly, is this the best time to put yourself under the stress of trying to stop smoking?  My psych doc told me to wait at least a year until I tried again.   But you have to do what’s best for you. I bet if you went to one of the Vet Hospitals you would find the doctor you need, or even to a veteran’s group.   I wish you lived near me, because my psych doc is very familiar with this disorder and knows his meds. Rita sometimes all a person needs is a hand to hold and a heart to understand.

you are saying nicotine is somewhat anxiolytic for you or interferes with ruminating thinking? Nicotine does a few things to brain amines and if this is so for you then there are some more potent dopaminergic monoamine oxidase ways of obtaining a better response. as for all forms of new therapy ptsd is very similar to any anxiety disorder in the sense that the panic attack is anxiogenic and self traumatizing meaning it acts as a trigger event and then becomes the trigger and the result simultaneously just like a traumatic event in a physical or psychological sense. REBT has a good track record with this in terms of moving past the trauma philosophicaly-one is not cured but can accept deal with and manage ones anxieties to a pretty good degree. Log on to www.rebt.org and give a whirl LM

Response:

Philip, you name it and I’ve tried it (except ECT). It seems to be the flight/fight hard wiring that constantly reinforces the old memories and causes them to keep returning. They keep trying with "new" forms of therapy and I go along on the chance that someone will find the "key" or help me find it. My Pdoc’s have all given up on us. It’s meds now and forever. Larry L.

Response:

Rita, I’ve tried so many different things over the past 12 years, all with the VA. Up until this point the combination of Klonopin and Bupropion (Wellbutrin) has worked as well or better than anything else. I’m convinced that I will never quit "smoking" in the sense that unless someone comes up with something better than nicotine (in a replacement form) it is the only thing that seems to break the cycle with the least side effects. Trouble is that I’m to a large extent stuck with the VA. I’m 100% service connected disabled so I get the best they have to offer, sometimes it isn’t enough. Larry L.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Larry, I do understand because part of my panic came from a couple of early childhood incidents that traumatized me forever.  I’m really thinking two things….first, if this doc doesn’t understand PTSD, then keep on looking until you find one who specializes in PTSD….I personally don’t think Klonopin is the drug of choice for what you have.  But I’m not a doctor.  Secondly, really, truly, is this the best time to put yourself under the stress of trying to stop smoking?  My psych doc told me to wait at least a year until I tried again.   But you have to do what’s best for you. I bet if you went to one of the Vet Hospitals you would find the doctor you need, or even to a veteran’s group.   I wish you lived near me, because my psych doc is very familiar with this disorder and knows his meds. Rita sometimes all a person needs is a hand to hold and a heart to understand.

Response:

Hi Larry, I do understand because part of my panic came from a couple of early childhood incidents that traumatized me forever.  I’m really thinking two things….first, if this doc doesn’t understand PTSD, then keep on looking until you find one who specializes in PTSD….I personally don’t think Klonopin is the drug of choice for what you have.  But I’m not a doctor.  Secondly, really, truly, is this the best time to put yourself under the stress of trying to stop smoking?  My psych doc told me to wait at least a year until I tried again.   But you have to do what’s best for you. I bet if you went to one of the Vet Hospitals you would find the doctor you need, or even to a veteran’s group.   I wish you lived near me, because my psych doc is very familiar with this disorder and knows his meds. Rita sometimes all a person needs is a hand to hold and a heart to understand.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Rita, In a way my anxiety attacks will never be completely under control. I have PTSD and the recurrent intrusive thoughts (which start a cycle of thoughts and feelings) which I get are the cause of a lot of my anxiety. There seems to be no way to stop them (a lot of doctors, some very good ones, have tried). The best that I can do is to either take enough medication so that the thoughts don’t bother me (like now) or use a "kicker" like nicotine to break the cycle temporarily so the anxiety doesn’t get to bad. One thought I have is that I’m going through this for nothing. Once my body/mind adjusts to the new benzo level the intrusive thoughts will have as much power as before. I tried explaining to the smoking doc about this and why I was different for her "normal" patients but she doesn’t understand. Few people and fewer doctors do understand about the multifaceted aspects of PTSD. Tried the patch but it gave me a bad rash. Wasn’t what I was using nicotine for anyway, gave me a steady dose when what I needed was occasional "jolts". Maybe I should just stay "benzo’ed out" and at least stay out of everyone’s hair. Thanks for the response, Larry L. Larry, you have my sympathy, my roomie (husband) and I stopped smoking January 15.   I have PD, he doesn’t.   Neither one of us had any problem because we used the patch.   I didn’t have to up any of my benzo’s or Effexor….just used the patch.   Neither one of us felt any side-effects at all, except for the normal one of wishing we could have a smoke here and there.  Joe had a salty taste in this mouth, and said he had weird dreams, but he wore the patch all night, whereas I took it off before I went to bed. I used the gum when it first came out and it didn’t impress me at all. The reason is because I needed something that worked in my system without me having to think about it.  With the gum, and I imagine the spray too, I would always be thinking, "should I take a hit now or wait a while?   Do I really need it or will the feeling go away?"  With the patch, you put it on, go about your business, and forget all about it I must have missed it, but did you give the patch a try?  Or is there some reason you can’t use it? Hang in there, Larry, and my advise is use what works best for you….everyone is an individual. BTW, is your anxiety/panic disorder under control?   If it’s not to the point where you want it to be, then maybe this is not the right time to stop smoking.   One thing at a time, my friend. Rita I’ve learned… that I can’t choose how I feel, but I can choose what I do about it.

Response:

Larry, I don’t have any advice, but I just want you to know how much I sympathize. I have some idea of how bad you feel right now. Quitting smoking is one of the hardest things to do, but you will never, ever regret it. Please believe me! These are the difficult weeks; it *will* get better. If you need motivation, visit http://www.getoutraged.com/p_spots.htm and view the ads about Pam Laffin. (The latest one is running on TV a lot these days.) Gruesome and unbearably sad. I hope you feel better soon, Larry. Hang in there, please! I’m saying a prayer for you the minute I post this message. Best, Anne —

Response:

Larry, you have my sympathy, my roomie (husband) and I stopped smoking January 15.   I have PD, he doesn’t.   Neither one of us had any problem because we used the patch.   I didn’t have to up any of my benzo’s or Effexor….just used the patch.   Neither one of us felt any side-effects at all, except for the normal one of wishing we could have a smoke here and there.  Joe had a salty taste in this mouth, and said he had weird dreams, but he wore the patch all night, whereas I took it off before I went to bed. I used the gum when it first came out and it didn’t impress me at all.   The reason is because I needed something that worked in my system without me having to think about it.  With the gum, and I imagine the spray too, I would always be thinking, "should I take a hit now or wait a while?   Do I really need it or will the feeling go away?"  With the patch, you put it on, go about your business, and forget all about it I must have missed it, but did you give the patch a try?  Or is there some reason you can’t use it? Hang in there, Larry, and my advise is use what works best for you….everyone is an individual. BTW, is your anxiety/panic disorder under control?   If it’s not to the point where you want it to be, then maybe this is not the right time to stop smoking.   One thing at a time, my friend. Rita I’ve learned… that I can’t choose how I feel, but I can choose what I do about it.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m still in a fog. Upped my Klonopin to 4 mgs a day to cut down on my need to use a nicotine replacement spray. It’s working, I could probably get by without the spray at all. Trouble is I’m not adjusting to the increased dosage well. Feel like my mind is locked down for most of the day. I won’t drive my car, no anxiety about it (no anxiety about much of anything at the moment), but I know driving would not be safe for me or others out on the road. Why can’t my doctors get together on this? I was doing fine on two and a half to three Klonopin a day and using the spray when I needed it. I was getting around fine and my head seemed as clear as normal (what ever that is). I feel like going back to smoking and cutting back on the Klonopin (slowly). I may kill myself in the long run (by smoking) but I don’t want to live like this much longer. Appointment to see my stop smoking doc on Wednesday. Going to be an interesting drive if my head doesn’t clear up better. I don’t think she understands my situation and hasn’t prescribed enough spray anyway (200 0.5mg sprays in a bottle, ten sprays a day (equal to 5 cigs) and one bottle a month. Do the math, end up 10 days short no matter how you count it). This isn’t doing anything good for my depression and my Pdoc is pissed off but can’t seem to do anything about it. Well, at least I’m getting plenty of sleep and maybe with a little more Klonopin (expect that’s what the smoking doc will tell me to do) I won’t care about any of this at all. Sorry for the rant, just feeling a little lost right now. Larry L.

Response:

I’m still in a fog. Upped my Klonopin to 4 mgs a day to cut down on my need to use a nicotine replacement spray. It’s working, I could probably get by without the spray at all. Trouble is I’m not adjusting to the increased dosage well. Feel like my mind is locked down for most of the day. I won’t drive my car, no anxiety about it (no anxiety about much of anything at the moment), but I know driving would not be safe for me or others out on the road. Why can’t my doctors get together on this? I was doing fine on two and a half to three Klonopin a day and using the spray when I needed it. I was getting around fine and my head seemed as clear as normal (what ever that is). I feel like going back to smoking and cutting back on the Klonopin (slowly). I may kill myself in the long run (by smoking) but I don’t want to live like this much longer. Appointment to see my stop smoking doc on Wednesday. Going to be an interesting drive if my head doesn’t clear up better. I don’t think she understands my situation and hasn’t prescribed enough spray anyway (200 0.5mg sprays in a bottle, ten sprays a day (equal to 5 cigs) and one bottle a month. Do the math, end up 10 days short no matter how you count it). This isn’t doing anything good for my depression and my Pdoc is pissed off but can’t seem to do anything about it. Well, at least I’m getting plenty of sleep and maybe with a little more Klonopin (expect that’s what the smoking doc will tell me to do) I won’t care about any of this at all. Sorry for the rant, just feeling a little lost right now. Larry L.

Response: