vulnerability – spoilered | PTSD

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vulnerability – spoilered

Question:

this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I find it powerfully strange how different Blue is from me. I have no idea who "me" is, at this point in time. Feels like Luc, Thomas or Jen – it’s hard to tell most times. However, having nearly written "ofttimes" makes me think I’m Luc. But most of us reflect upon the fact that Blue feels so very different from Jen. One might recall, though it’s unlikely, that for many years we were only allowed out if we pretended to be Jen. Blue never would pretend, so Jen had to use denial for Blue. We used to think he never came out at all, but … but I digress. The thing is, at any given time there’s a greater than 50% chance we have no idea who’s on first – and this doesn’t matter in the least. We’re functional, we get thru our days, we switch if we need to…so who cares? But having no idea who’s on first sorta means that we feel like Jen, if that makes any sense. Rather, we feel like Jen’s idea of herself, not like Jen herself. Cuz Jen’s a little. Taken on her own, she age-slides right back down to abt 5 or 6, and she’s terrified. In control and coconscious, Jen’s my main big – or so *she* thinks. In actuality that honor goes to Thomas. But part of Jen’s self-image includes feeling like Thomas, if that makes sense. Because Jen *believed* that Thomas was her – so any living we’ve done as Thomas, Jen claims as her own. And we’ve lived a *lot* of our life as Thomas. But that’s besides the point. Thomas’ image of himself – or "how I know I’m Thomas" is a feeling of cold remoteness when he’s doing his job. The rest of the time he feels sorta like a male Jen. But he knows perfectly well that the body is female, that we’re in a het relationship, that he must conform to society’s expectations as dictated by Jen. If he breaks that mold occasionally – buying men’s dress shoes cuz they look butch – slipping and telling the m*n*ster we wanna play Joseph in the improptu xms play (in the middle of the service..in front of the whole ch*rch…i coulda d!ed of embarrasssment! but we *did* wanna play Joseph! *sigh* it’s not widely known in my life that i’m bi.) Blue, on the other hand, doesn’t feel like Jen, doesn’t acknowledge being female – yup, the nose just twitched in an involuntary sneer – and has serious issues with the hubby. These issues are not about not liking him. They’re because Blue … <c’mon, Blue – lemme talk. It’s ok. Nothing bad’s gonna happen, no one’s gonna think anything bad about you if you let me talk about this. [i'm not a h.f.boy.] <of course you’re not. just remember – deep inside hubby’s just as much a female as you’re a male. the plumbing’s just wrong for both of us. Alright, Egghead’s been booted offa first. If my stupid dirty laundry’s gotta be aired, may as well say it myself to make sure it comes out right. <oh, please – like anything blue says comes out right. Excepting rants, of course. No one can dish up a rant like Blue. There, are you appeased now, heathen? heh…alright – Egghead’s getting into the name calling. Good one, Luc. *half-grin* So what the heck were we talking about??? Oh. Dave. (the hubby) There’s like this big deal cuz I yell at him a lot. Well, it doesn’t seem like a lot to me, and I’m sure that, on a minute by minute accounting of the time we spend together, the amount of time I’m short-tempered with him is virtually insignif. *airy wave of the hand* Go away, G. *dimples* good grief…Ok, I want everyone inside to go back to sleep. Heh…for this I need tunes……;) So, like, hubby hates it when I snap at him, and we got in this huge fight the other day where he told Jen that anytime she/we yell at him it’s abusive. He’s full of sh!t. But Jen bought it. Hurt her good. Why’s he do that? I don’t try to hurt him in a fight. I’m just trying to let him know when he’s being an idiot. Ok, ok…someone inside wants me to say something about that. Cuz I guess the deal is that Dave feels the same to me as the other dyenths do. He’s my responsibility. Hah – I’ve deviated from Luc’s little plan for what I’m supposed to say in what order. Go to sleep, Luc! Dave’s my responsibility. He’s mine. No one gets to hurt him. But he keeps doing these stupid, stupid things, all the time. He just doesn’t *think*! I guess the problem is that I keep forgetting that he doesn’t hear my suggestions when I don’t say them out loud. Cuz everyone else inside hears them. So it catches me off guard when everyone inside spots a danger signal and jumps to the left, and I look to the right, and Dave’s still standing there. Hey! Stupid! Jump to the *left*! DUH!!! And I feel like "how can anyone be that stupid?" But I keep getting told that he’s not stupid. He just didn’t get raised in the same environment. He doesn’t recognize the danger signals the way I do. These danger signals, one might point out [hey, Luc - what's the deal?] <hush, barbarian. i’ll let you talk again in a moment, are the product of Blue’s failure to recognize that "bad stuff" isn’t going to happen any more. The fther had an outrageously short fuse, and there are many, many, many rules about things that would set him off. Leaving cupboard doors open. Leaving lights on. Doing anything inefficiently. Not picking up a scrap of paper on the floor. This system was run ragged trying to keep from "getting in trouble" as a child/youth. The idea that if we knew all the rules *and could follow them* we wouldn’t get in trouble (ie: get yelled at, possibly get h!t.) is why we’re in therapy. Blue is hypervigilant about anything that would set my fther off. That’s because Blue is my internal personification of my fthr. And Jen personifies my mthr. The relationship between Blue and Jen mirrors my folks’. Again, I digress. So it drives me *bonkers* when Dave does something stupid, and I flip, just like the old man did. Except I don’t h!t. And I don’t *mean* to hurt the hubby – he’s just so easy to hurt. I hafta walk on eggshells practically to keep him safe. How’m I sposta not feel like something bad’s gonna happen when i see something that woulda set the old man off? It’s like having a twitchy finger on a hair-trigger: the *second* I see something that looks dangerous, I act. Heck, half the reason we’re so smart was cuz we had to think so fast to survive. Ok, I’m stalling. Here’s the deal. Gloriana gave me a hug a few months back, and it was cool. Actually, it was warm. Really warm. And it felt good. And I liked it. So, like, dyenths and stuff have been giving me hugs sometimes…and I’m learning to hold Jen when she’s flipping so she can stay out. She looks at me to yell at her so she can remember the rules, and I’m holding her saying it’s ok. heh…takes the wind outta her sails. Hey. Gotta enjoy what I can about it. So hugs are cool. And a couple weeks ago the kid wanted me to hug dave for her. I was on first in the brain, bigtime. But the kid wanted a hug. So we hugged him. *frowns at screen* And it fking felt good, alright??? This doesn’t have anything to do with sex – it’s just hugging. I’d probably k!ll him if he tried half the sh!t with me that he does with Jen…but that’s besides the point. And last night I was out, and it was bedtime, and when we go to bed at the same time, hubby likes to cuddle until he goes to sleep, and I grumbled something to him about "don’t even *think* you’re gonna be getting any tonight" so he’d know who I was at that point. and he laughed, and snuggled closer and I held him, cuz that’s what he wanted. and it felt good. warm. and it scared the shit outta me, cuz i don’t wanna like that and lose it. he’s mine. but i can’t protect him good enough. i can’t keep him safe. I don’t wanna need him and not be able to keep him. he’s mine, dammit! um…blue went ‘way. an i’m here now. he was cryin real bad. it’s this big lotsa fraid cuz he don’t like feelin like the hugs can go away for good. cuz he likes the hugs. but our "world view" (Sir Luc is coming back!) doesn’t allow for a feeling of safety and security. We strive to be aware of the illusory nature of … *hee* illlllooosorry-pronounced-like-canadians-do. don’t remember what luc was sayin. oh, like we don’t think the world’s safe, ever. cuz it’s not. bad stuff can happen any time, like 9/11. that didn’t shock us cuz we expect bad stuff to happen cuz we hate being surprised by it. but that means its real scary to like dave’s hugs – at least for blue, since he’s in charge of keepin us safe – cuz the world’s not safe. hubby has to cross major intersections in downtown Buffalo to get to and from work. He could get hurt and d!e sometime. hubby could find a thin, pretty person he loves more than me who doesn’t turn into blue and yell at him all the time. and then we wouldn’t have the hugs no more. blue doesn’t like liking the hugs. but he needs them. cuz he’s all cold feeling inside. and hugs are so warm. and the hubby gives good hugs. *nods* …and it *feels* like it’s safer now than it used to be…and i *want* to be warm. i *want* things to be ok. …blue’s cryin lots and lots. he’s bein the sad person for us. cuz T says

Response:

[...] um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler?

[...] did you read the FAQ? here’s what it says about spoilering: "Do not post about potentially disturbing subjects without giving some sort of spoiler. A spoiler is a caution/warning that the contents of the post may be disturbing for a specific reason, followed by about 20 blank lines to make up a page of text, giving people a chance to skip that note. … So that people can participate even if they have a number of unresolved triggers, certain topics should be spoilered. These topics include but are not limited to: s*xual encounters (both positive and negative), all forms of ab*se, s*icide attempts, c*tting/self-harm, all rel*gious topics (both pro- and anti-), and int*gration/f*sion. The fact that a topic is not listed in this FAQ does not mean it necessarily may go unspoilered; if several people request that a topic be spoilered, these requests should be heeded." there’s your list. the SYSK adds: "A spoiler ensures others safety and your freedom, you can talk freely under a spoiler. You can use all the triggering language and images you feel like under a spoiler." the part of your post i quoted above sounds sarcastic and beleaguered, as if you are being put upon. you are not. spoilering has been a basic convention at asd since its inception. i suggest you read the SYSK next time it’s posted. it was written as the asd community evolved and its needs and preferences became established, and it goes into more detail than the FAQ about splats and triggers. i am very sorry if my request for spoilers on posts about s*xl matters contributed to your apparent confusion about spoilering and/or to your not posting for a week. it wasn’t directed specifically toward you. i didn’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or to cloud the issue of spoilers. my only point was that if spoilers aren’t specific then they aren’t useful. tess valerian

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G

i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the guidelines set up to keep those of us who need safety, then apparently that is what you need to do. i have posted about this a couple times a year since i started posting here, which may tick off a lot of ppl but i also know that a lot of us need the safety of a spoiler. fwiw, i am also a strong supporter that ppl should be able to talk about anything that they need to under a spoiler and i have seen ppl hushed up for discussing stuff that others didn’t like. i think that is not ok. no one is asking anyone to censor their discussions, only to follow the guidelines set up years ago and honor the needs for safety of many of us at this group. if you try to understand the basic idea of why to spoiler and why to splat and that they serve different functions and needs (i, betsy, need spoilers to be safe from certain topics. however i can interpret all splats so splatting doesn’t protect me from anything. some folks kids cannot interpret splats so the adults can read spoilered posts and the kids won’t get hurt.) i’m sorry if you feel picked on. i feel traumatized when i can’t avoid reading triggering words in subject lines. i won’t bother you again about this. i have never said nor implied that you shouldn’t write here or talk about anything you want to. since that was your original reaction i wanted to clarify that you seem determined to misinterpret this subject as censorship or disapproval of what you talk about. that was never said nor implied. what was requested was that everyone at the group try to honor the conventions and needs of asd to continue a safe place to read and write. betsy

Response:

dyenths and gang, Listen, I have said to you on more than one occasion that I admire your co-consciousness and ability to switch and keep a narrative stream-of-consciousness-focus going. I have complimented you on some poetry. I have enjoyed dialogue with you on a few other subjects. I like you. I appreciate your presence at asd. I enjoy your sense of humor. I have been enlightened by your singing metaphors and lessons, and by your chocolate recipes. I have also been triggered by more than one of your headers and more than a few lines in more than a few posts that I wasn’t expecting to encounter because there was no spoiler or warning. After those triggers I realized that I refrained from reading your posts for awhile, each time. Then, after time passed, I remembered all the stuff I like about you and started braving it again. Still, the problem has persisted. Personally, I was so triggered by the stuff that I lost my usual assertiveness and boldness. I couldn’t bring myself to raise the issue with you. I couldn’t figure out if I should or how I should or why I was thinking about it at all. That is all part of the chaotic, dissociative dynamic that gets going in me when I am triggered. I’m glad that b. and T.V. have raised this issue. I’m seconding their emotions. And I hope that you do take the requests to heart. Something that I practice is reading over my posts before sending them. Sometimes I don’t even realize that they should be spoilered until after I’ve written them out, then proofed them. Once I get it, I go back to the top and add the spoiler with as specific a warning as I can figure out to write without triggering folk by the warning itself. I try to splat, even under spoilers. I do this because sometimes I decide to brave a spoilered post, yet still appreciate that certain things are splatted. When other asdissers warn that there are no splats beneath a spoiler, I appreciate that warning. It’s clear that you’ve survived many tr*umatzng situations. I respect you enormously for the forthright, down-to-it manner in which you approach your healing and recovery. I think the faq and sysk and series of personal requests to you for spoilers and splats are reasonable. I have the same request. I hope you can honor these requests without bitterness or cynicism toward those of us who make them. Ultimately, it is our community as a whole, in consensus, that makes those requests. That is the why and wherefore of the faq and sysk. So, my fellow history buff and friend — you are a gamer. You must know that all games have some rules. Even asd. What I like most about asd rules are the soft, fleecy feel of them. They don’t restrain or restrict me. They comfort me and give me a freedom of expression of my most personal stuff that I’ve never had anywhere else. (Kinda like the rules of writing poetry.) Most importantly, asd rules have guided me into trusting and trusted friendships. Those are hard found commodities. I hope that you will conclude along with me that they are well worth the extra time in choosing language and adding spoilers and splats. When in doubt, please use them. With care and respect, trill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the guidelines set up to keep those of us who need safety, then apparently that is what you need to do. i have posted about this a couple times a year since i started posting here, which may tick off a lot of ppl but i also know that a lot of us need the safety of a spoiler. fwiw, i am also a strong supporter that ppl should be able to talk about anything that they need to under a spoiler and i have seen ppl hushed up for discussing stuff that others didn’t like. i think that is not ok. no one is asking anyone to censor their discussions, only to follow the guidelines set up years ago and honor the needs for safety of many of us at this group. if you try to understand the basic idea of why to spoiler and why to splat and that they serve different functions and needs (i, betsy, need spoilers to be safe from certain topics. however i can interpret all splats so splatting doesn’t protect me from anything. some folks kids cannot interpret splats so the adults can read spoilered posts and the kids won’t get hurt.) i’m sorry if you feel picked on. i feel traumatized when i can’t avoid reading triggering words in subject lines. i won’t bother you again about this. i have never said nor implied that you shouldn’t write here or talk about anything you want to. since that was your original reaction i wanted to clarify that you seem determined to misinterpret this subject as censorship or disapproval of what you talk about. that was never said nor implied. what was requested was that everyone at the group try to honor the conventions and needs of asd to continue a safe place to read and write. betsy

Response:

Hi tess and dyenths – An additional couple of comments: We do think that w/a spoiler, when someone is angry w/another person in asd, it’s okay to express it, but not in an ab*sive way (and I am *not* at all saying that anyone has done that here in this context, please don’t think so). And – even under a spoiler, it can be useful to splat certain words which may attract "trolls" who are looking for topics which might end up attracting peoples here who could be upsetting to the group. So we generally splat s*x and words pertaining to practices and body parts about s*x. That’s mainly it. It isn’t about limiting someone’s freedom to talk about stuff, or saying that it isn’t okay – just to keep the group safe by not getting peoples here who are looking for ways to get their jollies. Make sense? Beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? [...] did you read the FAQ? here’s what it says about spoilering: "Do not post about potentially disturbing subjects without giving some sort of spoiler. A spoiler is a caution/warning that the contents of the post may be disturbing for a specific reason, followed by about 20 blank lines to make up a page of text, giving people a chance to skip that note. … So that people can participate even if they have a number of unresolved triggers, certain topics should be spoilered. These topics include but are not limited to: s*xual encounters (both positive and negative), all forms of ab*se, s*icide attempts, c*tting/self-harm, all rel*gious topics (both pro- and anti-), and int*gration/f*sion. The fact that a topic is not listed in this FAQ does not mean it necessarily may go unspoilered; if several people request that a topic be spoilered, these requests should be heeded." there’s your list. the SYSK adds: "A spoiler ensures others safety and your freedom, you can talk freely under a spoiler. You can use all the triggering language and images you feel like under a spoiler." the part of your post i quoted above sounds sarcastic and beleaguered, as if you are being put upon. you are not. spoilering has been a basic convention at asd since its inception. i suggest you read the SYSK next time it’s posted. it was written as the asd community evolved and its needs and preferences became established, and it goes into more detail than the FAQ about splats and triggers. i am very sorry if my request for spoilers on posts about s*xl matters contributed to your apparent confusion about spoilering and/or to your not posting for a week. it wasn’t directed specifically toward you. i didn’t mean to hurt anyone’s feelings or to cloud the issue of spoilers. my only point was that if spoilers aren’t specific then they aren’t useful. tess valerian

Response:

Hi betsy and dyenths Yeah, I guess I wanted to emphasize and elaborate on something you, betsy, said, which is that the purpose of spoilers is *not* censorship. I wanted to say that it is exactly the opposite: it is to provide a way of allowing someone complete freedom to go for whatever needs to be said w/out worrying about how it’s going to affect anyone else. Really. That’s what it’s about. And in times past, there have been lots of really explicit things discussed under spoilers – it depends on who is active in the group at the time what the character of the group might be in terms of what gets discussed, what is on peoples’ minds. There was a period in which I was active in the past when quite a few people were writing very graphically about sx and/or abse, for instance – and we think that’s one reason for asd being here in the first place, because people need a place where that can be discussed. So spoilers really kind of indicate a "no holds barred" kind of thing, not a constraint. And – as for lists of things that should be spoilered, well, anyone here could probably tell you that it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone. I mean, suppose someone was f*rced to e*t potatoes, or something, and they didn’t want to – well, then, that food might be a trigger. See? And of course there isn’t any way of knowing. And no one would expect anyone to spoiler for that. So we just do the best we can for the obvious stuff, and for stuff that we have some sense might be a problem (like 9/11, for example, as you say) – and no one can ask for more than that. And no one does or will. Oh – and I think it’s okay to ask for spoilers if peoples have forgotten to use them or haven’t gotten familiar w/the conventions. I think it’s okay and important. That’s what I think. Most respectfully yours – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the guidelines set up to keep those of us who need safety, then apparently that is what you need to do. i have posted about this a couple times a year since i started posting here, which may tick off a lot of ppl but i also know that a lot of us need the safety of a spoiler. fwiw, i am also a strong supporter that ppl should be able to talk about anything that they need to under a spoiler and i have seen ppl hushed up for discussing stuff that others didn’t like. i think that is not ok. no one is asking anyone to censor their discussions, only to follow the guidelines set up years ago and honor the needs for safety of many of us at this group. if you try to understand the basic idea of why to spoiler and why to splat and that they serve different functions and needs (i, betsy, need spoilers to be safe from certain topics. however i can interpret all splats so splatting doesn’t protect me from anything. some folks kids cannot interpret splats so the adults can read spoilered posts and the kids won’t get hurt.) i’m sorry if you feel picked on. i feel traumatized when i can’t avoid reading triggering words in subject lines. i won’t bother you again about this. i have never said nor implied that you shouldn’t write here or talk about anything you want to. since that was your original reaction i wanted to clarify that you seem determined to misinterpret this subject as censorship or disapproval of what you talk about. that was never said nor implied. what was requested was that everyone at the group try to honor the conventions and needs of asd to continue a safe place to read and write. betsy

Response:

Dear dyenths – And now, after having responded elsewhere to the spoiler thingie, I will say a couple of words about stuff written here – though I haven’t got lots to say about all of it – a couple of things were sparked by stuff you said. First – your thing about "slipping" and saying you wanted to play the part of Joseph? It reminds me of a time I "slipped" w/out even knowing back then – a bit of evidence I look back to that, yes, Beauty, you really are a multiple, okay? I was a pupil at a kindergarten run by a Frenchwoman – wonderful, because my mthr also taught French, and I had learned some of the language since little, little, and songs and stuff – so it was great. (This was the same school, by the way, in which I made my stage debut as Little Red Riding Hood.) Okay, so this woman had this European thing about handing out lunch boxes at lunch time – very formal, and all. She would hold up a lunch box, read the name on it, and call out the person’s name, and the person would come up and take it from her. If the person was a boy, he would bow and then take the box, and if the person was a girl, she would curtsy and then take the box. (No kidding. This really happened. I thought it was pretty weird even back then at five, but anyhow . . .) Well, one day, the lunch box thing was going on, and about five boys in a row got called up, w/out a girl interspersed, so we were just sitting there, apparently kind of tranced out (maybe we were hungry and that played into it somehow) – and we can’t say from this long distance in time who it was who was watching or who went to answer for the lunch box, but when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow. Oooops. And everyone in the room exploded w/laughter. Not ooooops, then – we saw red – and picked up our chair, brandishing it as if to fling it across the room – we were soooo embarrassed, and we can tell you for sure, now, today, who was out at that point: it was Eric, who gets massively triggered by humiliation and responds w/terrible aggression. Okay, so not funny anymore, suddenly, and teacher puts us in supplies closet w/face to wall as consequence. (it was a huge, walk-in closet, and the door not closed – it wasn’t a traumatic absve thing in itself.) We can remember standing there thinking – we can never lve her again after this, for laughing at us, and for not understanding that it was the laughter that made us do the chair thing. We remember there was a teddy in the closet, but it wasn’t possible for us to take comfort in that. We were dissed out majorly at that point. And after a little while – I think after all the boxes were handed out – she did come right in and hugged us and said she knew we hadn’t meant to do that, etc., and got us to come out. And we got back to our table, and we saw that she had opened our box and laid out our lunch and even poured our chocolate milk into our thermos cup for us – it was amazing to us that she had done this so care-fully for us. We didn’t be hungry though, only still sad, and we still did think that she would never lve us again and we could never lve her again after what had happened. So that is our story about slipping and accidentally being a boy that day. (There were other times when, for various reasons, we had to wear pants in school, in a time when no girl ever wore pants – and that was a weird thing, too – kind of didn’t know who we were at all, and felt alien all day.) Oh, and then one other thing you wrote resonated for us. We have times esp. in the past (before our nice little drug D*pakote) when we would yell at husb., and we have to say that we agree w/your husb. that we do think, as our husb. did and does, that it is absve. It’s hard – it was impossible for me not to for such a long time, and we thought it was a moral defect. But we are so thankful that we found a med that helps, because it never occurred to us that it was possible – and it doesn’t tranq us out or anything, it just keeps us from being a h*llion. Many regards from – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I find it powerfully strange how different Blue is from me. I have no idea who "me" is, at this point in time. Feels like Luc, Thomas or Jen – it’s hard to tell most times. However, having nearly written "ofttimes" makes me think I’m Luc. But most of us reflect upon the fact that Blue feels so very different from Jen. One might recall, though it’s unlikely, that for many years we were only allowed out if we pretended to be Jen. Blue never would pretend, so Jen had to use denial for Blue. We used to think he never came out at all, but … but I digress. The thing is, at any given time there’s a greater than 50% chance we have no idea who’s on first – and this doesn’t matter in the least. We’re functional, we get thru our days, we switch if we need to…so who cares? But having no idea who’s on first sorta means that we feel like Jen, if that makes any sense. Rather, we feel like Jen’s idea of herself, not like Jen herself. Cuz Jen’s a little. Taken on her own, she age-slides right back down to abt 5 or 6, and she’s terrified. In control and coconscious, Jen’s my main big – or so *she* thinks. In actuality that honor goes to Thomas. But part of Jen’s self-image includes feeling like Thomas, if that makes sense. Because Jen *believed* that Thomas was her – so any living we’ve done as Thomas, Jen claims as her own. And we’ve lived a *lot* of our life as Thomas. But that’s besides the point. Thomas’ image of himself – or "how I know I’m Thomas" is a feeling of cold remoteness when he’s doing his job. The rest of the time he feels sorta like a male Jen. But he knows perfectly well that the body is female, that we’re in a het relationship, that he must conform to society’s expectations as dictated by Jen. If he breaks that mold occasionally – buying men’s dress shoes cuz they look butch – slipping and telling the m*n*ster we wanna play Joseph in the improptu xms play (in the middle of the service..in front of the whole ch*rch…i coulda d!ed of embarrasssment! but we *did* wanna play Joseph! *sigh* it’s not widely known in my life that i’m bi.) Blue, on the other hand, doesn’t feel like Jen, doesn’t acknowledge being female – yup, the nose just twitched in an involuntary sneer – and has serious issues with the hubby. These issues are not about not liking him. They’re because Blue … <c’mon, Blue – lemme talk. It’s ok. Nothing bad’s gonna happen, no one’s gonna think anything bad about you if you let me talk about this. [i'm not a h.f.boy.] <of course you’re not. just remember – deep inside hubby’s just as much a female as you’re a male. the plumbing’s just wrong for both of us. Alright, Egghead’s been booted offa first. If my stupid dirty laundry’s gotta be aired, may as well say it myself to make sure it comes out right. <oh, please – like anything blue says comes out right. Excepting rants, of course. No one can dish up a rant like Blue. There, are you appeased now, heathen? heh…alright – Egghead’s getting into the name calling. Good one, Luc. *half-grin* So what the heck were we talking about??? Oh. Dave. (the hubby) There’s like this big deal cuz I yell at him a lot. Well, it doesn’t seem like a lot to me, and I’m sure that, on a minute by minute accounting of the time we spend together, the amount of time I’m short-tempered with him is virtually insignif. *airy wave of the hand* Go away, G. *dimples* good grief…Ok, I want everyone inside to go back to sleep. Heh…for this I need tunes……;) So, like, hubby hates it when I snap at him, and we got in this huge fight the other day where he told Jen that anytime she/we yell at him it’s abusive. He’s full of sh!t. But Jen bought it. Hurt her good. Why’s he do that? I don’t try to hurt him in a fight. I’m just trying to let him know when he’s being an idiot. Ok, ok…someone inside wants me to say something about that. Cuz I guess the deal is that Dave feels the same to me as the other dyenths do. He’s my responsibility. Hah – I’ve deviated from Luc’s little plan for what I’m supposed to say in what order. Go to sleep, Luc! Dave’s my responsibility. He’s mine. No one gets to hurt him. But he keeps doing these stupid, stupid things, all the time. He just doesn’t *think*! I guess the problem is that I keep forgetting that he doesn’t hear my suggestions when I don’t say them out loud. Cuz everyone else inside hears them. So it catches me off guard when everyone inside spots a danger signal and jumps to the left, and I look to the right, and Dave’s still standing there. Hey! Stupid! Jump to the *left*! DUH!!! And I feel like "how can anyone be that stupid?" But I keep getting told that he’s not stupid. He just didn’t get raised in the same environment. He doesn’t recognize the danger signals the way I do.

Response:

All of dyenths – Manipulative is not a word that would ever have occurred to us to use of any of you. Sorry you are melting down, and that feels so scary and bad. As far as we are concerned, it’s okay to stop freaking out about anything that’s going on here at the ng. We think you are doing okay, and we hear you when you say here that you are committed to not hurting peoples – which we knew anyhow – and that whether or not you completely understood or remembered before, you’re okay w/the idea of spoilers. So – sounds like nothing is amiss w/anything about how you can write here, and we are hoping you can start to be feeling better. Oh, and as for Blue – we’ve done a little scr**ming, too, in our day. It does make you feel kind of raw, doesn’t it? Take care – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hiya, tess. :) Several parts of me want to apologize for several different things, and I’d like to try to explain what I figured out after reading your reply. It’s significant that several of me want to apologize, cuz "I’m sorry" means very different things to my different parts. A generic "I’m sorry" from me, without specification regarding who said it, can mean anything from "please don’t h*rt me" to "I apologize" to "fk u". And it’s really important to me to make sure what I mean gets accross here, cuz this is a confusing issue. A few things: 1. I love the idea of spoilers, all evidence to the contrary, specifically because I loathe the idea of h*rting someone with the gunk in my soul, and I love having a safe outlet for getting *out* the gunk in my soul. I’ve written things below a spoiler that many people would have difficulty repeating to another person out loud. 2. I spoiler a lot. I will frequently put in a spoiler after writing whatever’s been written, cuz I don’t know beforehand what’s gonna come out. Or I’ll amend whatever spoiler I’d already put in if I realize I veered off into a topic I hadn’t anticipated. 3. I know your request for spoilers wasn’t directed specifically at me, and wasn’t intended to make anyone feel guilty or hurt. You took great pains to prevent that, in fact, for which I am grateful. 4. I didn’t stop posting for a week because of your request for spoiler post. I stopped posting for a week because Jen was melting down and we realized exactly how manipulative she could be. My main method of dealing with whatever-Jen-does-to-keep-from-feeling-anxious is cold turkey: No. We’re not doing this anymore. Then I ride out the histrionics as best I can. In this instance I realized we’d become dysfunctionally codependent regarding posting, and I couldn’t guarantee that anything signed by any part of me other than Jen was actually *by* that person and not Jen (she’s really good at making me think her thoughts are mine or someone else’s)(in fact, she’s outstandingly, mind-bogglingly, exquisitely good at it. She’s had a *lot* of practice. She scares me with how much power she wields in the system.). I can’t stand feeling dysfunctionally codependent, Jen was melting down badly, so I stopped posting. There were several other reasons as well, but that’s the main one. 5. Ok, here’s where it gets weird. I need to explain Gloriana’s job in the system. She was my "wh!pping boy" for most of my life. I thought that was her job. It’s not. Gloriana’s job is to distract attention away from someone inside who’s h*rting badly, or feeling particularly vulnerable. She’s also exquisitely good at her job. It’s very difficult for me to tell when she’s doing it. What does this mean here-and-now? Her commentary about spoilers was a red herring. She wanted to draw any incoming fire to her, not Blue, cuz Blue wouldn’t have been able to take it (or so she thought). So she deliberately put in a distraction. I figured this out because I did a lot of thinking after I read your reply – G was back to feeling like "sorry" and, in fact, signed a post that way, for reasons (I think) unrelated to the ng (she teased a friend, who got mad and now isn’t talking to us)(still)(ow)(*jerk*)(but there’s a chance that she was out in the *first* place cuz we were gonna be checking for responses to blue’s post…sometimes I wish I weren’t *quite* so intelligent!) So she was already feeling p*rs*c*ted before checking the ng, and got moreso, which confused me (which is why I did some thinking) because G’s been happy as a clam for *months*, and delightfully unconflicted, and she’s irrepressible and delights in making me laugh. So I knew I was missing something. I figured out that she was faking to draw attention away from Blue when I heard her talking inside about changing the spelling of "sorry" to "sori" because she’d signed a post to veri as "sorry". So she spells it "sori" inside and I felt her peal of laughter underneath the diss (I always diss when G’s feeling like sorry. can’t stand feeling her feeling like that), and said "Wait a minute…G? What’s going on?" and she got that guilty look on her face and went back to feeling like "sorry". So I went looking for why she was doing her job. As soon as i defined her job internally, ie: protecting parts that feel vulnerable, I remembered that that’s the subject of that post, and knew what happened. She’s dancing around like a mother hen inside cuz I blew her cover. She’s worried about Blue. In part this is because while writing Blue’s portion of the post, Blue cried huge racking sobs, and screamed his pain into the world, and the idea of our protector *crying* scared the rhinestone&leather-fringed boots right off of G. Blue’s in full retreat right now, more because Gloriana needs him to be (because she can’t protect him anymore – her job requires me to be unaware of what’s going on) than because he does. I’m at a weird point right now. I’m making huge progress dealing with my "bad stuff" issues. My overall quality of life has improved tremendously over the past year. But I’ve been going thru stuff so quickly that I’m unable to process more than a tenth of it with my T (who refuses to let me come in more than once a week), and there are a lot of issues on back burners that I *really* need his help with. So when another issue comes up that I can figure out, occasionally it gets snarled by the issues still on back burners, and I have to drop the whole mess back into my subconscious. The problem is that the stuff I’m working on now is at the core of my issues, and has the highest level of defenses. I’m *this close* to "figuring it all out"…but I’m dealing with Jen’s issues, and she’s *good* at redirecting me. Her anxiety levels are the highest in the system. Essentially what I’m trying to do right now is to "cure" obsessive-compulsive disorder. (she redirected me again) Look, I’m really really really really smart, and Jen’s really really really really scared, and she’ll do *anything* to keep from feeling anxious, and she’s *good* at it because I’m so smart, and trying to help her is like trying to catch a greased pig so you can give it medicine. Gotta catch it first, then gotta keep it from slipping away while ya dose it. Ok, now what’s Jen distracting me from this time? Oh. Blue. Jen can’t stand the idea that Blue is trying to stop being a jerk. She needs him to keep yelling at her to keep her on her toes. So she’s doing *anything* right now to keep Blue hidden. And I still can’t trust that anything I say is coming from me. I need my T desperately. But I don’t get to see him this week. I’m fraying at the edges trying to hold out between sessions. So I apologize for not realizing that Gloriana needed to include her commentary about spoilers was intended to provoke a response that would make it easier for G to do her job (ie: get really depressed and make me think her problem is what’s actually bothering me). I apologize for unwittingly bringing other people into my own defense structure. If I’d realized that was the intent, I wouldn’t have posted G’s stuff. (This is why I stopped posting. Jen’s meltdown. She’s in charge of analyzing social interaction. But if she’s decomped, she can be incredibly manipulative to try to stabilize herself. It’s probably a good sign that my own defenses aren’t "strong" enough anymore…but I *really* don’t want to manipulate other people. But Jen will do anything to keep from feeling anxious. aww…sugardonuts…she’s melting down again.) Jen: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry!!! I didn’t mean to let G get away with it <just ignore her. I don’t want people thinking I’m a terrible person and horribly manipulative. And I don’t want people to think that I don’t care about how my words affect others (the spoiler issue). And I don’t want to hurt anyone else, and i just wanna curl up inside a closet with lotsa blankets and pillows and some stuffed animals and make the world go away. I’m just so scared. And they don’t trust me inside. Nobody trusts me. Nobody believes me. I jjust wanna go away. not-jen: She went away when I blew my nose. I don’t know how to help her. I need my T desperately. And I still can’t trust myself to post, because I can’t verify my motivations for writing things, and I don’t want to manipulate others to maintain Jen’s defenses. I’m very sorry for causing so much disruption. That’s not a corrosive "sorry", like Gloriana or Jen would say. It’s an "I regret my actions" sorry for the entire system. The truth is that I (the system) *am* horribly manipulative at my worst. And with Jen in meltdown, I’m at my worst. That’s why I stopped posting. I may choose not to post until after I’ve seen my T. I plan to call today to see if

Response:

i haven’t read this post thoroughly yet. i have a hard time reading long posts, and we’re leaving tomorrow to go out of town for five days so i don’t have time to knuckle down to it before i leave. it should still be on my server next week when i return and i can read it then. tess

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hiya, tess. :) Several parts of me want to apologize for several different things, and I’d like to try to explain what I figured out after reading your reply. It’s significant that several of me want to apologize, cuz "I’m sorry" means very different things to my different parts. A generic "I’m sorry" from me, without specification regarding who said it, can mean anything from "please don’t h*rt me" to "I apologize" to "fk u". And it’s really important to me to make sure what I mean gets accross here, cuz this is a confusing issue. A few things: 1. I love the idea of spoilers, all evidence to the contrary, specifically because I loathe the idea of h*rting someone with the gunk in my soul, and I love having a safe outlet for getting *out* the gunk in my soul. I’ve written things below a spoiler that many people would have difficulty repeating to another person out loud. 2. I spoiler a lot. I will frequently put in a spoiler after writing whatever’s been written, cuz I don’t know beforehand what’s gonna come out. Or I’ll amend whatever spoiler I’d already put in if I realize I veered off into a topic I hadn’t anticipated. 3. I know your request for spoilers wasn’t directed specifically at me, and wasn’t intended to make anyone feel guilty or hurt. You took great pains to prevent that, in fact, for which I am grateful. 4. I didn’t stop posting for a week because of your request for spoiler post. I stopped posting for a week because Jen was melting down and we realized exactly how manipulative she could be. My main method of dealing with whatever-Jen-does-to-keep-from-feeling-anxious is cold turkey: No. We’re not doing this anymore. Then I ride out the histrionics as best I can. In this instance I realized we’d become dysfunctionally codependent regarding posting, and I couldn’t guarantee that anything signed by any part of me other than Jen was actually *by* that person and not Jen (she’s really good at making me think her thoughts are mine or someone else’s)(in fact, she’s outstandingly, mind-bogglingly, exquisitely good at it. She’s had a *lot* of practice. She scares me with how much power she wields in the system.). I can’t stand feeling dysfunctionally codependent, Jen was melting down badly, so I stopped posting. There were several other reasons as well, but that’s the main one. 5. Ok, here’s where it gets weird. I need to explain Gloriana’s job in the system. She was my "wh!pping boy" for most of my life. I thought that was her job. It’s not. Gloriana’s job is to distract attention away from someone inside who’s h*rting badly, or feeling particularly vulnerable. She’s also exquisitely good at her job. It’s very difficult for me to tell when she’s doing it. What does this mean here-and-now? Her commentary about spoilers was a red herring. She wanted to draw any incoming fire to her, not Blue, cuz Blue wouldn’t have been able to take it (or so she thought). So she deliberately put in a distraction. I figured this out because I did a lot of thinking after I read your reply – G was back to feeling like "sorry" and, in fact, signed a post that way, for reasons (I think) unrelated to the ng (she teased a friend, who got mad and now isn’t talking to us)(still)(ow)(*jerk*)(but there’s a chance that she was out in the *first* place cuz we were gonna be checking for responses to blue’s post…sometimes I wish I weren’t *quite* so intelligent!) So she was already feeling p*rs*c*ted before checking the ng, and got moreso, which confused me (which is why I did some thinking) because G’s been happy as a clam for *months*, and delightfully unconflicted, and she’s irrepressible and delights in making me laugh. So I knew I was missing something. I figured out that she was faking to draw attention away from Blue when I heard her talking inside about changing the spelling of "sorry" to "sori" because she’d signed a post to veri as "sorry". So she spells it "sori" inside and I felt her peal of laughter underneath the diss (I always diss when G’s feeling like sorry. can’t stand feeling her feeling like that), and said "Wait a minute…G? What’s going on?" and she got that guilty look on her face and went back to feeling like "sorry". So I went looking for why she was doing her job. As soon as i defined her job internally, ie: protecting parts that feel vulnerable, I remembered that that’s the subject of that post, and knew what happened. She’s dancing around like a mother hen inside cuz I blew her cover. She’s worried about Blue. In part this is because while writing Blue’s portion of the post, Blue cried huge racking sobs, and screamed his pain into the world, and the idea of our protector *crying* scared the rhinestone&leather-fringed boots right off of G. Blue’s in full retreat right now, more because Gloriana needs him to be (because she can’t protect him anymore – her job requires me to be unaware of what’s going on) than because he does. I’m at a weird point right now. I’m making huge progress dealing with my "bad stuff" issues. My overall quality of life has improved tremendously over the past year. But I’ve been going thru stuff so quickly that I’m unable to process more than a tenth of it with my T (who refuses to let me come in more than once a week), and there are a lot of issues on back burners that I *really* need his help with. So when another issue comes up that I can figure out, occasionally it gets snarled by the issues still on back burners, and I have to drop the whole mess back into my subconscious. The problem is that the stuff I’m working on now is at the core of my issues, and has the highest level of defenses. I’m *this close* to "figuring it all out"…but I’m dealing with Jen’s issues, and she’s *good* at redirecting me. Her anxiety levels are the highest in the system. Essentially what I’m trying to do right now is to "cure" obsessive-compulsive disorder. (she redirected me again) Look, I’m really really really really smart, and Jen’s really really really really scared, and she’ll do *anything* to keep from feeling anxious, and she’s *good* at it because I’m so smart, and trying to help her is like trying to catch a greased pig so you can give it medicine. Gotta catch it first, then gotta keep it from slipping away while ya dose it. Ok, now what’s Jen distracting me from this time? Oh. Blue. Jen can’t stand the idea that Blue is trying to stop being a jerk. She needs him to keep yelling at her to keep her on her toes. So she’s doing *anything* right now to keep Blue hidden. And I still can’t trust that anything I say is coming from me. I need my T desperately. But I don’t get to see him this week. I’m fraying at the edges trying to hold out between sessions. So I apologize for not realizing that Gloriana needed to include her commentary about spoilers was intended to provoke a response that would make it easier for G to do her job (ie: get really depressed and make me think her problem is what’s actually bothering me). I apologize for unwittingly bringing other people into my own defense structure. If I’d realized that was the intent, I wouldn’t have posted G’s stuff. (This is why I stopped posting. Jen’s meltdown. She’s in charge of analyzing social interaction. But if she’s decomped, she can be incredibly manipulative to try to stabilize herself. It’s probably a good sign that my own defenses aren’t "strong" enough anymore…but I *really* don’t want to manipulate other people. But Jen will do anything to keep from feeling anxious. aww…sugardonuts…she’s melting down again.) Jen: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry!!! I didn’t mean to let G get away with it <just ignore her. I don’t want people thinking I’m a terrible person and horribly manipulative. And I don’t want people to think that I don’t care about how my words affect others (the spoiler issue). And I don’t want to hurt anyone else, and i just wanna curl up inside a closet with lotsa blankets and pillows and some stuffed animals and make the world go away. I’m just so scared. And they don’t trust me inside. Nobody trusts me. Nobody believes me. I jjust wanna go away. not-jen: She went away when I blew my nose. I don’t know how to help her. I need my T desperately. And I still can’t trust myself to post, because I can’t verify my motivations for writing things, and I don’t want to manipulate others to maintain Jen’s defenses. I’m very sorry for causing so much disruption. That’s not a corrosive "sorry", like Gloriana or Jen would say. It’s an "I regret my actions" sorry for the entire system. The truth is that I (the system) *am* horribly manipulative at my worst. And with Jen in meltdown, I’m at my worst. That’s why I stopped posting. I may choose not to post until after I’ve seen my T. I plan to call today to see if I can get in to see him. Jen’s a little girl, terrified of making m0mmy mad. I’ve done my best to keep this response from being manipulative, but I can’t tell if I succeeded. I have no ill will towards anyone, take no offense from anything written in response to me, and wish everyone well. I also bid adieu until Monday (when I see T) unless I can get in to see T today or tomorrow.

Response:

i am a lurker but personally, the splats are so common they hit me like the word itself would so they are no help if words were a problem, they are not but i read everything especially the difficult ones to LEARN from them that i’m not the only one with bizarre thoughts taking over my head :) alice

Response:

hey there!

i appreciate the response. First – your thing about "slipping" and saying you wanted to play the part of Joseph? It reminds me of a time I "slipped" w/out even knowing back then – a bit of evidence I look back to that, yes, Beauty, you really are a multiple, okay? I was a pupil at a

kindergarten run by a – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Frenchwoman – wonderful, because my mthr also taught French, and I had learned some of the language since little, little, and songs and stuff – so it was great. (This was the same school, by the way, in which I made my stage debut as Little Red Riding Hood.) Okay, so this woman had this European thing about handing out lunch boxes at lunch time – very formal, and all. She would hold up a lunch box, read the name on it, and call out the person’s name, and the person would come up and take it from her. If the person was a boy, he would bow and then take the box, and if the person was a girl, she would curtsy and then take the box. (No kidding. This really happened. I thought it was pretty weird even back then at five, but anyhow . . .) Well, one day, the lunch box thing was going on, and about five boys in a row got called up, w/out a girl interspersed, so we were just sitting there, apparently kind of tranced out (maybe we were hungry and that played into it somehow) – and we can’t say from this long distance in time who it was who was watching or who went to answer for the lunch box, but when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow. Oooops. And everyone in the room exploded w/laughter.

aww….. I’ve certainly had more moments like that than I can count. Laughing at me was a favored activity amongst my peers in public school. Please tell Eric for me that I see a splendid picture of him making his terribly elegant, utterly correct bow…and i envy him, i think, for his self-presence – if that makes any sense. :-) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Not ooooops, then – we saw red – and picked up our chair, brandishing it as if to fling it across the room – we were soooo embarrassed, and we can tell you for sure, now, today, who was out at that point: it was Eric, who gets massively triggered by humiliation and responds w/terrible aggression. Okay, so not funny anymore, suddenly, and teacher puts us in supplies closet w/face to wall as consequence. (it was a huge, walk-in closet, and the door not closed – it wasn’t a traumatic absve thing in itself.) We can remember standing there thinking – we can never lve her again after this, for laughing at us, and for not understanding that it was the laughter that made us do the chair thing. We remember there was a teddy in the closet, but it wasn’t possible for us to take comfort in that. We were dissed out majorly at that point. And after a little while – I think after all the boxes were handed out – she did come right in and hugged us and said she knew we hadn’t meant to do that, etc., and got us to come out. And we got back to our table, and we saw that she had opened our box and laid out our lunch and even poured our chocolate milk into our thermos cup for us – it was amazing to us that she had done this so care-fully for us.

that was wonderfully sweet of her. I’m not sure I’ve *ever* had any teachers who were that kind, outside of (private) high school. Though there was a nurse at the school I attended from 5-7th grades who was kind and sympathetic to me. School often felt unbearable to me, and in 7th grade particularly I went to the nurse’s office a lot. She’d let me hang out til I felt better, or if I didn’t feel better, she’d call my folks to come get me cuz I was sick. You know, I just now made the connection between feeling so miserable all the time – tired, nauseated, whatever – with the multiple inf*ctions running thru me, most notably in my tooth and an ingrown toenail. That didn’t clear up til I was in 8th grade. … I wish there were more parts of my childhood that weren’t terrible. Be well, friend. dyenths – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -We didn’t be hungry though, only still sad, and we still did think that she would never lve us again and we could never lve her again after what had happened. So that is our story about slipping and accidentally being a boy that day. (There were other times when, for various reasons, we had to wear pants in school, in a time when no girl ever wore pants – and that was a weird thing, too – kind of didn’t know who we were at all, and felt alien all day.) Oh, and then one other thing you wrote resonated for us. We have times esp. in the past (before our nice little drug D*pakote) when we would yell at husb., and we have to say that we agree w/your husb. that we do think, as our husb. did and does, that it is absve. It’s hard – it was impossible for me not to for such a long time, and we thought it was a moral defect. But we are so thankful that we found a med that helps, because it never occurred to us that it was possible – and it doesn’t tranq us out or anything, it just keeps us from being a h*llion. Many regards from – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I find it powerfully strange how different Blue is from me. I have no idea who "me" is, at this point in time. Feels like Luc, Thomas or Jen – it’s hard to tell most times. However, having nearly written "ofttimes" makes me think I’m Luc. But most of us reflect upon the fact that Blue feels so very different from Jen. One might recall, though it’s unlikely, that for many years we were only allowed out if we pretended to be Jen. Blue never would pretend, so Jen had to use denial for Blue. We used to think he never came out at all, but … but I digress. The thing is, at any given time there’s a greater than 50% chance we have no idea who’s on first – and this doesn’t matter in the least. We’re functional, we get thru our days, we switch if we need to…so who cares? But having no idea who’s on first sorta means that we feel like Jen, if that makes any sense. Rather, we feel like Jen’s idea of herself, not like Jen herself. Cuz Jen’s a little. Taken on her own, she age-slides right back down to abt 5 or 6, and she’s terrified. In control and coconscious, Jen’s my main big – or so *she* thinks. In actuality that honor goes to Thomas. But part of Jen’s self-image includes feeling like Thomas, if that makes sense. Because Jen *believed* that Thomas was her – so any living we’ve done as Thomas, Jen claims as her own. And we’ve lived a *lot* of our life as Thomas. But that’s besides the point. Thomas’ image of himself – or "how I know I’m Thomas" is a feeling of cold remoteness when he’s doing his job. The rest of the time he feels sorta like a male Jen. But he knows perfectly well that the body is female, that we’re in a het relationship, that he must conform to society’s expectations as dictated by Jen. If he breaks that mold occasionally – buying men’s dress shoes cuz they look butch – slipping and telling the m*n*ster we wanna play Joseph in the improptu xms play (in the middle of the service..in front of the whole ch*rch…i coulda d!ed of embarrasssment! but we *did* wanna play Joseph! *sigh* it’s not widely known in my life that i’m bi.) Blue, on the other hand, doesn’t feel like Jen, doesn’t acknowledge being female – yup, the nose just twitched in an involuntary sneer – and has serious issues with the hubby. These issues are not about not liking him. They’re because Blue … <c’mon, Blue – lemme talk. It’s ok. Nothing bad’s gonna happen, no one’s gonna think anything bad about you if you let me talk about this. [i'm not a h.f.boy.] <of course you’re not. just remember – deep inside hubby’s just as much a female as you’re a male. the plumbing’s just wrong for both of us. Alright, Egghead’s been booted offa first. If my stupid dirty laundry’s gotta be aired, may as well say it myself to make sure it comes out right. <oh, please – like anything blue says comes out right. Excepting rants, of course. No one can dish up a rant like Blue. There, are you appeased now, heathen? heh…alright – Egghead’s getting into the name calling. Good one, Luc. *half-grin* So what the heck were we talking about??? Oh. Dave. (the hubby) There’s like this big deal cuz I yell at him a lot. Well, it doesn’t seem like a lot to me, and I’m sure that, on a

Response:

hi betsy. not a full response to everything you’ve written. i just wanted to clear something up…

<snip darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group.

*surprised look* I’m not. The pout was entirely directed internally for not letting me get my own post. It had nothing whatsoever to do with spoilering, which, incidentally, I do with great regularity and gratitude. "G" stands for "Gloriana", who’s an adorable minx of about 13, though she prefers to feel about 6 or 7. I l0ve her to pieces, and think she’s wonderful. It’s a sign of health that she feels safe enough to pout at me for not indulging her to excess. And letting her vent about her (and I stress *her*) confusion regarding spoilers in this post as *well* as in a separate post would have been truly excessive. I am not conflicted enough about this issue for it to have warranted a double reference. In reality, as I mention in my response to tess, a separate post wouldn’t have served G’s purpose at all. I *was* a little confused about why she’d settle for grousing a bit in Blue’s post when I’d been willing to let her say whatever she wanted in her own post (which I could have prefaced and explained as needed, so that it didn’t come out sounding like the Voice of the Majority, but instead like the voice of one part of me, being cared for and accepted and understood by the whole of me). She’s very vain, and attention seeking. But then, that’s her job. I apologize for the misunderstanding. Since your post appears to be based entirely on the misconception that I have a problem with spoilering, I have not read it in full. If you believe that I should, I would be happy to. yrs, Luc, for dyenths (with G hovering in the wings, being a pain as usual…;) no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the

guidelines set up to – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – keep those of us who need safety, then apparently that is what you need to do. i have posted about this a couple times a year since i started posting here, which may tick off a lot of ppl but i also know that a lot of us need the safety of a spoiler. fwiw, i am also a strong supporter that ppl should be able to talk about anything that they need to under a spoiler and i have seen ppl hushed up for discussing stuff that others didn’t like. i think that is not ok. no one is asking anyone to censor their discussions, only to follow the guidelines set up years ago and honor the needs for safety of many of us at this group. if you try to understand the basic idea of why to spoiler and why to splat and that they serve different functions and needs (i, betsy, need spoilers to be safe from certain topics. however i can interpret all splats so splatting doesn’t protect me from anything. some folks kids cannot interpret splats so the adults can read spoilered posts and the kids won’t get hurt.) i’m sorry if you feel picked on. i feel traumatized when i can’t avoid reading triggering words in subject lines. i won’t bother you again about this. i have never said nor implied that you shouldn’t write here or talk about anything you want to. since that was your original reaction i wanted to clarify that you seem determined to misinterpret this subject as censorship or disapproval of what you talk about. that was never said nor implied. what was requested was that everyone at the group try to honor the conventions and needs of asd to continue a safe place to read and write. betsy

Response:

Hi, Alice. Thanks for delurking.

i am a lurker but personally, the splats are so common they hit me like the word itself would

Sometimes this is the case for me, too. It was, for example, when a megatrigger word appeared, splatted, in a header, as a verb whose object was the writer. so they are no help if words were a problem, they are not but i read everything especially the difficult ones to LEARN from them that i’m not the only one with bizarre thoughts taking over my head

Frequently I do the same. Some stuff I am not well enough to handle, however. eg., conflations of sax and violins, if you know what I mean. Like, I could never handle some t.v. shows such as L*w and O*dr SV[U] or CS[I] or Cr*ssng J*rdn. I’ve avoided threads here that dealt with sxl fantasies involving violins. I have no doubt that those who participated in the discussions learned things from each other and worked through or at least addressed working through important issues. But just thinking about attempting anything like that can trigger me into five to ten different forms of dissociation at the same time. I guess each one of us in this trillian body is capable of several layers of dissociation all on his or her own. Combine them in the cocktail party cacophony and OH MY GOODNESS! It’s trill in wonderland. Everything looks real except for all the colors being a little too bright and everything turning out to be sculpted of gleaming jello. I can’t make any progress from such a state. But, bit by bit, small insight by small insight, I am learning to understand, access as a resource, and control my outward responses to my emotions. For example, I couldn’t go to the movies for a little more than a year. Now I can do that once again. alice

So, now, of course, I am majorly curious about you, alice. Hope you let us get to know you a bit. And I hope I’ve been coherent and reasonable. I’ve got one more major migraine. I mostly put on the computer to try and distract myself from it, but I think I’m gonna hafta to lie down. trill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

hiya, tess. :) Several parts of me want to apologize for several different things, and I’d like to try to explain what I figured out after reading your reply. It’s significant that several of me want to apologize, cuz "I’m sorry" means very different things to my different parts. A generic "I’m sorry" from me, without specification regarding who said it, can mean anything from "please don’t h*rt me" to "I apologize" to "fk u". And it’s really important to me to make sure what I mean gets accross here, cuz this is a confusing issue. A few things: 1. I love the idea of spoilers, all evidence to the contrary, specifically because I loathe the idea of h*rting someone with the gunk in my soul, and I love having a safe outlet for getting *out* the gunk in my soul. I’ve written things below a spoiler that many people would have difficulty repeating to another person out loud. 2. I spoiler a lot. I will frequently put in a spoiler after writing whatever’s been written, cuz I don’t know beforehand what’s gonna come out. Or I’ll amend whatever spoiler I’d already put in if I realize I veered off into a topic I hadn’t anticipated. 3. I know your request for spoilers wasn’t directed specifically at me, and wasn’t intended to make anyone feel guilty or hurt. You took great pains to prevent that, in fact, for which I am grateful. 4. I didn’t stop posting for a week because of your request for spoiler post. I stopped posting for a week because Jen was melting down and we realized exactly how manipulative she could be. My main method of dealing with whatever-Jen-does-to-keep-from-feeling-anxious is cold turkey: No. We’re not doing this anymore. Then I ride out the histrionics as best I can. In this instance I realized we’d become dysfunctionally codependent regarding posting, and I couldn’t guarantee that anything signed by any part of me other than Jen was actually *by* that person and not Jen (she’s really good at making me think her thoughts are mine or someone else’s)(in fact, she’s outstandingly, mind-bogglingly, exquisitely good at it. She’s had a *lot* of practice. She scares me with how much power she wields in the system.). I can’t stand feeling dysfunctionally codependent, Jen was melting down badly, so I stopped posting. There were several other reasons as well, but that’s the main one. 5. Ok, here’s where it gets weird. I need to explain Gloriana’s job in the system. She was my "wh!pping boy" for most of my life. I thought that was her job. It’s not. Gloriana’s job is to distract attention away from someone inside who’s h*rting badly, or feeling particularly vulnerable. She’s also exquisitely good at her job. It’s very difficult for me to tell when she’s doing it. What does this mean here-and-now? Her commentary about spoilers was a red herring. She wanted to draw any incoming fire to her, not Blue, cuz Blue wouldn’t have been able to take it (or so she thought). So she deliberately put in a distraction. I figured this out because I did a lot of thinking after I read your reply – G was back to feeling like "sorry" and, in fact, signed a post that way, for reasons (I think) unrelated to the ng (she teased a friend, who got mad and now isn’t talking to us)(still)(ow)(*jerk*)(but there’s a chance that she was out in the *first* place cuz we were gonna be checking for responses to blue’s post…sometimes I wish I weren’t *quite* so intelligent!) So she was already feeling p*rs*c*ted before checking the ng, and got moreso, which confused me (which is why I did some thinking) because G’s been happy as a clam for *months*, and delightfully unconflicted, and she’s irrepressible and delights in making me laugh. So I knew I was missing something. I figured out that she was faking to draw attention away from Blue when I heard her talking inside about changing the spelling of "sorry" to "sori" because she’d signed a post to veri as "sorry". So she spells it "sori" inside and I felt her peal of laughter underneath the diss (I always diss when G’s feeling like sorry. can’t stand feeling her feeling like that), and said "Wait a minute…G? What’s going on?" and she got that guilty look on her face and went back to feeling like "sorry". So I went looking for why she was doing her job. As soon as i defined her job internally, ie: protecting parts that feel vulnerable, I remembered that that’s the subject of that post, and knew what happened. She’s dancing around like a mother hen inside cuz I blew her cover. She’s worried about Blue. In part this is because while writing Blue’s portion of the post, Blue cried huge racking sobs, and screamed his pain into the world, and the idea of our protector *crying* scared the rhinestone&leather-fringed boots right off of G. Blue’s in full retreat right now, more because Gloriana needs him to be (because she can’t protect him anymore – her job requires me to be unaware of what’s going on) than because he does. I’m at a weird point right now. I’m making huge progress dealing with my "bad stuff" issues. My overall quality of life has improved tremendously over the past year. But I’ve been going thru stuff so quickly that I’m unable to process more than a tenth of it with my T (who refuses to let me come in more than once a week), and there are a lot of issues on back burners that I *really* need his help with. So when another issue comes up that I can figure out, occasionally it gets snarled by the issues still on back burners, and I have to drop the whole mess back into my subconscious. The problem is that the stuff I’m working on now is at the core of my issues, and has the highest level of defenses. I’m *this close* to "figuring it all out"…but I’m dealing with Jen’s issues, and she’s *good* at redirecting me. Her anxiety levels are the highest in the system. Essentially what I’m trying to do right now is to "cure" obsessive-compulsive disorder. (she redirected me again) Look, I’m really really really really smart, and Jen’s really really really really scared, and she’ll do *anything* to keep from feeling anxious, and she’s *good* at it because I’m so smart, and trying to help her is like trying to catch a greased pig so you can give it medicine. Gotta catch it first, then gotta keep it from slipping away while ya dose it. Ok, now what’s Jen distracting me from this time? Oh. Blue. Jen can’t stand the idea that Blue is trying to stop being a jerk. She needs him to keep yelling at her to keep her on her toes. So she’s doing *anything* right now to keep Blue hidden. And I still can’t trust that anything I say is coming from me. I need my T desperately. But I don’t get to see him this week. I’m fraying at the edges trying to hold out between sessions. So I apologize for not realizing that Gloriana needed to include her commentary about spoilers was intended to provoke a response that would make it easier for G to do her job (ie: get really depressed and make me think her problem is what’s actually bothering me). I apologize for unwittingly bringing other people into my own defense structure. If I’d realized that was the intent, I wouldn’t have posted G’s stuff. (This is why I stopped posting. Jen’s meltdown. She’s in charge of analyzing social interaction. But if she’s decomped, she can be incredibly manipulative to try to stabilize herself. It’s probably a good sign that my own defenses aren’t "strong" enough anymore…but I *really* don’t want to manipulate other people. But Jen will do anything to keep from feeling anxious. aww…sugardonuts…she’s melting down again.) Jen: I’m sorry, I’m sorry, I’m sorry!!! I didn’t mean to let G get away with it <just ignore her. I don’t want people thinking I’m a terrible person and horribly manipulative. And I don’t want people to think that I don’t care about how my words affect others (the spoiler issue). And I don’t want to hurt anyone else, and i just wanna curl up inside a closet with lotsa blankets and pillows and some stuffed animals and make the world go away. I’m just so scared. And they don’t trust me inside. Nobody trusts me. Nobody believes me. I jjust wanna go away. not-jen: She went away when I blew my nose. I don’t know how to help her. I need my T desperately. And I still can’t trust myself to post, because I can’t verify my motivations for writing things, and I don’t want to manipulate others to maintain Jen’s defenses. I’m very sorry for causing so much disruption. That’s not a corrosive "sorry", like Gloriana or Jen would say. It’s an "I regret my actions" sorry for the entire system. The truth is that I (the system) *am* horribly manipulative at my worst. And with Jen in meltdown, I’m at my worst. That’s why I stopped posting. I may choose not to post until after I’ve seen my T. I plan to call today to see if I can get in to see him. Jen’s a little girl, terrified of making m0mmy mad. I’ve done my best to keep this response from being manipulative, but I can’t tell if I succeeded. I have no ill will towards anyone, take no offense from anything written in response to me, and wish everyone well. I also bid adieu until Monday (when I see T) unless I can get in to see T today or tomorrow. Happy T-day. Thomas, for Jennifer (the system of dyenths) PS: I did read all 4 parts of the FAQ. My first post to the ng requested info on what to say or not to say, and you, tess, responded, if I recall correctly. I recall that you were very kind to me. Thanks. I needed that.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...] um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s

Response:

i apologize for having upset you. such was never my intent. Gloriana wishes to say that she’s glad the good "sorta outweighs" the bad. it grieves me to have caused you distress. i shall exercise more caution. Luc, for dyenths

lessons, and by your – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – chocolate recipes. I have also been triggered by more than one of your headers and more than a few lines in more than a few posts that I wasn’t expecting to encounter because there was no spoiler or warning. After those triggers I realized that I refrained from reading your posts for awhile, each time. Then, after time passed, I remembered all the stuff I like about you and started braving it again. Still, the problem has persisted. Personally, I was so triggered by the stuff that I lost my usual assertiveness and boldness. I couldn’t bring myself to

raise the issue with you. I couldn’t figure out if I should or how I should or why I was thinking about it at all. That is all part of the

chaotic, dissociative dynamic that gets going in me when I am triggered. I’m glad that b. and T.V. have raised this issue. I’m seconding their emotions. And I hope that you do take the requests to heart. Something that I practice is reading over my posts

before sending them. Sometimes I don’t even realize that they should be

spoilered until after I’ve written them out, then proofed them. Once I get it, I go back to the top and add the spoiler with as specific a warning as I can figure out to write without triggering folk by the warning itself. I try to splat, even under spoilers. I do this because sometimes I decide to brave a spoilered post, yet still appreciate that certain things are splatted. When other asdissers warn that there are no splats beneath a spoiler, I appreciate that warning. It’s clear that you’ve survived many tr*umatzng

situations. I respect you enormously for the forthright, down-to-it manner in which you approach your healing and recovery. I think the faq and sysk and series of personal requests to you for spoilers and splats are reasonable. I have the same request. I hope you can honor these requests without

bitterness or cynicism toward those of us who make them. Ultimately, it is our community as a whole, in consensus, that makes those requests. That is the why and wherefore of the faq and sysk. So, my fellow history buff and friend — you are a gamer. You must know that all games have some rules. Even asd. What I like

most about asd rules – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – are the soft, fleecy feel of them. They don’t restrain or restrict me. They comfort me and give me a freedom of expression of my most personal stuff that I’ve never had anywhere else. (Kinda like the rules of writing poetry.) Most importantly, asd rules have guided me into trusting and trusted friendships. Those are hard found commodities. I hope that you will conclude along with me that they are well worth the extra time in choosing language and adding spoilers and splats. When in doubt, please use them. With care and respect, trill

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the

safety of many of us – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – at this group. if you try to understand the basic idea of why to spoiler and why to splat and that they serve different functions and needs (i, betsy, need spoilers to be safe from certain topics. however i can interpret all splats so splatting doesn’t protect me from anything. some folks kids cannot interpret splats so the adults can read spoilered posts and the kids won’t get hurt.) i’m sorry if you feel picked on. i feel traumatized when i can’t avoid reading triggering words in subject lines. i won’t bother you again about this. i have never said nor implied that you shouldn’t write here or talk about anything you want to. since that was your original reaction i wanted to clarify that you seem determined to misinterpret this subject as censorship or

disapproval of what you – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – talk about. that was never said nor implied. what was requested was that everyone at the group try to honor the conventions and needs of asd to continue a safe place to read and write. betsy

Response:

hiya, beauty. :) i just got around to reading this post, cuz i didn’t read all of betsy’s response, so i didn’t want to read any replies to it. now i feel silly, cuz you said basically what I said, only I think you said it first – and, of course, better than I could. :) i’ve always thought that one of the best parts *about* this ng is the fact that i can say *whatever i want to*, as long as i warn people. and i thought i was doing ok at that. but i don’t think i was doing quite enough. Jen’s histrionics aside, I feel badly about the fact that I’ve triggered ppl, even while trying not to. For the future, I can say that I have a better understanding of the different uses of spoilers and splats. My bad was in thinking they were sorta interchangeable. Meanwhile, I’m struggling to overcome the internal censors who…(ok, fine – it’s not more than one censor. It’s Jen.) I’m struggling to still Jen’s panic, since my biggest remaining issues got triggered by this. There are several issues that have triggered me: one is having caused h*rm to another. right on the heels of that is having thought i was following the rules "good enough". That’s a big issue for me because the rules always changed when i was young. but it was always my fault if i broke a rule. the truth is that it was all arbitrary when i was a kid. "rules" that i was "supposed" to know could be things I’d never been told to do or not do, or things that the day before had been ok to do. worst was when the rule flipped completely: one day i’d break the rule "you must always x", and the next day i’d do x and be told that i broke the rule "you must never x". or i’d do x, then be accused of not doing x, even though i’d done it. the worst part here-and-now is that i still can’t get jen to believe that it wasn’t her fault. that the rules were excuses to blame me for whatever else was wrong. that it didn’t matter what i did or didn’t do: the result would be the same. jen doesn’t believe that. my entire life is still predicated on the notion that if she just learns the rules good enough, she can keep the bad stuff from happening. that’s why jen’s been in thpy for over 17 years. i’ve reached the point of being unable to expound on this topic because of Jen’s fear of seeming manipulative or inappropriate. Please let it suffice to say that Jen’s reaction to this issue is in the nature of an exaggerated startle response, a la PTSD. it’s made it very difficult to write. one last point. you mention that "it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone." that’s actually what G was *trying* to get at, in her own fashion. Her response to the listing of the *major* issues to be handled with care was "of *course*! Duh! I *know* about *those*!!!" Please note that that was Gloriana’s response, and hasn’t been subjected to Jen’s censorship, providing I include this note. Her frustration regarded the impossibility of avoiding all triggery issues. This is significant because Jen’s immediate response to the initial request for spoilers was to inform the rest of us that we have to make sure to spoiler everything that could cause a problem. Gloriana’s expression of frustration also was necessary for me to be able to submit a post at all at that point. In some way it was an effort to let Jen know she’s being unreasonable. fond adieu, Luc, for dyenths

Hi betsy and dyenths Yeah, I guess I wanted to emphasize and elaborate on

something you, betsy, said, which is that the purpose of spoilers is *not*

censorship. I wanted – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – to say that it is exactly the opposite: it is to provide a way of allowing someone complete freedom to go for whatever needs to be said w/out worrying about how it’s going to affect anyone else. Really. That’s what it’s about. And in times past, there have been lots of really explicit things discussed under spoilers – it depends on who is active in the group at the time what the character of the group might be in terms of what gets discussed, what is on peoples’ minds. There was a period in which I was active in the past when quite a few people were writing very graphically about sx and/or abse, for instance – and we think that’s one reason for asd being here in the first place, because people need a place where that can be discussed. So

spoilers really kind of indicate a "no holds barred" kind of thing, not a constraint. And – as for lists of things that should be spoilered, well, anyone here could probably tell you that it isn’t possible to

anticipate everything that might upset someone. I mean, suppose someone was f*rced to e*t potatoes, or something, and they didn’t want to – well, then, that food might be a trigger. See? And of course there isn’t any way of

knowing. And no one – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – would expect anyone to spoiler for that. So we just do the best we can for the obvious stuff, and for stuff that we have some sense might be a problem (like 9/11, for example, as you say) – and no one can ask for more than that. And no one does or will. Oh – and I think it’s okay to ask for spoilers if peoples have forgotten to use them or haven’t gotten familiar w/the conventions. I think it’s okay and important. That’s what I think. Most respectfully yours – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the

Response:

i’m back, and i’m trying to keep up with these discussions. i want to say just a couple of things. i started the whole thing with a request for spoilers that are specific about the subject being discussed, and maybe i too should have been more specific. i worded my request as i did because non-specific spoilers show up here over and over, mostly, i think, by well-meaning newer members who aren’t yet completely familiar with the spoilering/splatting conventions here. sometimes they take the form of "spoilered because i don’t know what i might say." well, neither do i, and that’s the point of the spoiler, to let people know. so the request had been in my mind for a long time, and it just took one more post to crystallize it. that post happened to be yours, dyenths (sorry if i’ve got your name wrong). this is what happened. your post contained this spoiler: "spoilered fer talk abt energy stuff that i don’t expect ppl to believe so i feel i hafta spoiler so somehow ppl won’t think i’m a total weirdo or something bizarre like that… little bit of talk of abse. well splatted." people have posted here before about "energy stuff" that many people don’t believe, having to do with the fact that when they’re around, clocks and watches stop, computers go flooey, television images turn snowy, and other similar things. that’s what came to my mind when i read your spoiler warning. so i read your post and was unprepared to find that you were talking about a very different kind of energy. the problem was that your spoiler didn’t mention sx *at all,* yet that’s one form of energy you were referring to, and that’s what your post was largely about. you did say that there was a "little bit of talk of abse," but ab*se doesn’t necessarily mean sa, not to me, so i was also unprepared to read what to me was a vivid image of a certain kind of sa. the other thing i want to say is that i also thought you were pouting about being asked to spoiler. i know differently now, but one thing that added to my misunderstanding was that that part of your post was signed, or attributed to, "-G." i didn’t know that that meant Gloriana. if i had known that, i still wouldn’t have known what sort of interpretation was called for. i don’t know much about your system and don’t know your (their) names. a lot of people use the letter g to represent a grin, and that’s what i thought it meant in your post. at any rate, i agree with you that much of the confusion arose from your using splats and spoilers interchangeably. some of it came from my not knowing your system and how to interpret things you (they) say. but i understand your thinking a little better now. tess

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hiya, beauty. :) i just got around to reading this post, cuz i didn’t read all of betsy’s response, so i didn’t want to read any replies to it. now i feel silly, cuz you said basically what I said, only I think you said it first – and, of course, better than I could. :) i’ve always thought that one of the best parts *about* this ng is the fact that i can say *whatever i want to*, as long as i warn people. and i thought i was doing ok at that. but i don’t think i was doing quite enough. Jen’s histrionics aside, I feel badly about the fact that I’ve triggered ppl, even while trying not to. For the future, I can say that I have a better understanding of the different uses of spoilers and splats. My bad was in thinking they were sorta interchangeable. Meanwhile, I’m struggling to overcome the internal censors who…(ok, fine – it’s not more than one censor. It’s Jen.) I’m struggling to still Jen’s panic, since my biggest remaining issues got triggered by this. There are several issues that have triggered me: one is having caused h*rm to another. right on the heels of that is having thought i was following the rules "good enough". That’s a big issue for me because the rules always changed when i was young. but it was always my fault if i broke a rule. the truth is that it was all arbitrary when i was a kid. "rules" that i was "supposed" to know could be things I’d never been told to do or not do, or things that the day before had been ok to do. worst was when the rule flipped completely: one day i’d break the rule "you must always x", and the next day i’d do x and be told that i broke the rule "you must never x". or i’d do x, then be accused of not doing x, even though i’d done it. the worst part here-and-now is that i still can’t get jen to believe that it wasn’t her fault. that the rules were excuses to blame me for whatever else was wrong. that it didn’t matter what i did or didn’t do: the result would be the same. jen doesn’t believe that. my entire life is still predicated on the notion that if she just learns the rules good enough, she can keep the bad stuff from happening. that’s why jen’s been in thpy for over 17 years. i’ve reached the point of being unable to expound on this topic because of Jen’s fear of seeming manipulative or inappropriate. Please let it suffice to say that Jen’s reaction to this issue is in the nature of an exaggerated startle response, a la PTSD. it’s made it very difficult to write. one last point. you mention that "it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone." that’s actually what G was *trying* to get at, in her own fashion. Her response to the listing of the *major* issues to be handled with care was "of *course*! Duh! I *know* about *those*!!!" Please note that that was Gloriana’s response, and hasn’t been subjected to Jen’s censorship, providing I include this note. Her frustration regarded the impossibility of avoiding all triggery issues. This is significant because Jen’s immediate response to the initial request for spoilers was to inform the rest of us that we have to make sure to spoiler everything that could cause a problem. Gloriana’s expression of frustration also was necessary for me to be able to submit a post at all at that point. In some way it was an effort to let Jen know she’s being unreasonable. fond adieu, Luc, for dyenths Hi betsy and dyenths Yeah, I guess I wanted to emphasize and elaborate on something you, betsy, said, which is that the purpose of spoilers is *not* censorship. I wanted to say that it is exactly the opposite: it is to provide a way of allowing someone complete freedom to go for whatever needs to be said w/out worrying about how it’s going to affect anyone else. Really. That’s what it’s about. And in times past, there have been lots of really explicit things discussed under spoilers – it depends on who is active in the group at the time what the character of the group might be in terms of what gets discussed, what is on peoples’ minds. There was a period in which I was active in the past when quite a few people were writing very graphically about sx and/or abse, for instance – and we think that’s one reason for asd being here in the first place, because people need a place where that can be discussed. So spoilers really kind of indicate a "no holds barred" kind of thing, not a constraint. And – as for lists of things that should be spoilered, well, anyone here could probably tell you that it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone. I mean, suppose someone was f*rced to e*t potatoes, or something, and they didn’t want to – well, then, that food might be a trigger. See? And of course there isn’t any way of knowing. And no one would expect anyone to spoiler for that. So we just do the best we can for the obvious stuff, and for stuff that we have some sense might be a problem (like 9/11, for example, as you say) – and no one can ask for more than that. And no one does or will. Oh – and I think it’s okay to ask for spoilers if peoples have forgotten to use them or haven’t gotten familiar w/the conventions. I think it’s okay and important. That’s what I think. Most respectfully yours – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the guidelines set up to keep

Response:

Hello Luc and all of dyenths – Just one more word here. I don’t think of spoilering, splatting, avoiding cross-posting, etc., as "rules." I think of them as guidelines for helping each other stay safe. So, see, since they aren’t rules, you didn’t break any rules. Or Jen didn’t, or whatever. (Tell her I said so. Also, please tell her I know she never has meant to hurt anyone, and that I think she has a great heart, okay?) Mm, what else? I guess that’s it. So, give yourselves some slack here: I think we can all chalk it up to deeper understandings of one another, yes? I hope so. And that might go for others reading who haven’t spoken up, too – maybe the fact of your having been kind of the "center" of this discussion has *helped* a whole bunch of peoples that you don’t have any idea about, because it helped clarify a bunch of issues for everyone. What thinkest thou? Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hiya, beauty. :) i just got around to reading this post, cuz i didn’t read all of betsy’s response, so i didn’t want to read any replies to it. now i feel silly, cuz you said basically what I said, only I think you said it first – and, of course, better than I could. :) i’ve always thought that one of the best parts *about* this ng is the fact that i can say *whatever i want to*, as long as i warn people. and i thought i was doing ok at that. but i don’t think i was doing quite enough. Jen’s histrionics aside, I feel badly about the fact that I’ve triggered ppl, even while trying not to. For the future, I can say that I have a better understanding of the different uses of spoilers and splats. My bad was in thinking they were sorta interchangeable. Meanwhile, I’m struggling to overcome the internal censors who…(ok, fine – it’s not more than one censor. It’s Jen.) I’m struggling to still Jen’s panic, since my biggest remaining issues got triggered by this. There are several issues that have triggered me: one is having caused h*rm to another. right on the heels of that is having thought i was following the rules "good enough". That’s a big issue for me because the rules always changed when i was young. but it was always my fault if i broke a rule. the truth is that it was all arbitrary when i was a kid. "rules" that i was "supposed" to know could be things I’d never been told to do or not do, or things that the day before had been ok to do. worst was when the rule flipped completely: one day i’d break the rule "you must always x", and the next day i’d do x and be told that i broke the rule "you must never x". or i’d do x, then be accused of not doing x, even though i’d done it. the worst part here-and-now is that i still can’t get jen to believe that it wasn’t her fault. that the rules were excuses to blame me for whatever else was wrong. that it didn’t matter what i did or didn’t do: the result would be the same. jen doesn’t believe that. my entire life is still predicated on the notion that if she just learns the rules good enough, she can keep the bad stuff from happening. that’s why jen’s been in thpy for over 17 years. i’ve reached the point of being unable to expound on this topic because of Jen’s fear of seeming manipulative or inappropriate. Please let it suffice to say that Jen’s reaction to this issue is in the nature of an exaggerated startle response, a la PTSD. it’s made it very difficult to write. one last point. you mention that "it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone." that’s actually what G was *trying* to get at, in her own fashion. Her response to the listing of the *major* issues to be handled with care was "of *course*! Duh! I *know* about *those*!!!" Please note that that was Gloriana’s response, and hasn’t been subjected to Jen’s censorship, providing I include this note. Her frustration regarded the impossibility of avoiding all triggery issues. This is significant because Jen’s immediate response to the initial request for spoilers was to inform the rest of us that we have to make sure to spoiler everything that could cause a problem. Gloriana’s expression of frustration also was necessary for me to be able to submit a post at all at that point. In some way it was an effort to let Jen know she’s being unreasonable. fond adieu, Luc, for dyenths Hi betsy and dyenths Yeah, I guess I wanted to emphasize and elaborate on something you, betsy, said, which is that the purpose of spoilers is *not* censorship. I wanted to say that it is exactly the opposite: it is to provide a way of allowing someone complete freedom to go for whatever needs to be said w/out worrying about how it’s going to affect anyone else. Really. That’s what it’s about. And in times past, there have been lots of really explicit things discussed under spoilers – it depends on who is active in the group at the time what the character of the group might be in terms of what gets discussed, what is on peoples’ minds. There was a period in which I was active in the past when quite a few people were writing very graphically about sx and/or abse, for instance – and we think that’s one reason for asd being here in the first place, because people need a place where that can be discussed. So spoilers really kind of indicate a "no holds barred" kind of thing, not a constraint. And – as for lists of things that should be spoilered, well, anyone here could probably tell you that it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone. I mean, suppose someone was f*rced to e*t potatoes, or something, and they didn’t want to – well, then, that food might be a trigger. See? And of course there isn’t any way of knowing. And no one would expect anyone to spoiler for that. So we just do the best we can for the obvious stuff, and for stuff that we have some sense might be a problem (like 9/11, for example, as you say) – and no one can ask for more than that. And no one does or will. Oh – and I think it’s okay to ask for spoilers if peoples have forgotten to use them or haven’t gotten familiar w/the conventions. I think it’s okay and important. That’s what I think. Most respectfully yours – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the guidelines set up to keep those of us who need safety, then apparently that is what you need to do. i have posted about this a couple times a year since i started posting here, which may tick off a lot of ppl but i also know that a lot of us need the safety of a spoiler. fwiw, i am also a strong supporter that ppl should be able to talk about anything that they need to under a spoiler and i have seen ppl hushed up for discussing stuff that others didn’t like. i think that is not ok. no one is asking anyone to censor their discussions, only to follow the guidelines set up years ago and honor the needs for safety of many of us at this group. if you try to understand the basic idea of why to spoiler and why to splat and that they serve different functions and needs (i, betsy, need spoilers to be safe from certain topics. however i can interpret all splats so splatting doesn’t protect me from anything. some folks kids cannot interpret splats so the adults can read spoilered posts and the kids won’t get hurt.) i’m sorry if you feel picked on. i feel traumatized when i can’t avoid reading triggering words in subject lines. i won’t bother you again about this. i have never said nor implied that you shouldn’t write here or talk about anything you want to. since that was your original reaction i wanted to clarify that you seem determined to misinterpret this subject as censorship or disapproval of what you talk about. that was never said nor implied. what was requested was that everyone at the group try to honor the conventions and needs of asd to continue a safe place to read and write. betsy

Response:

Dear dyenths – Glad you were able to figure out something about the illness stuff – even though the memories are, um, painful. I got tormented a lot in different kinds of school settings, too, while in others I did marvelously. Depended on the school. Your comments for Eric went deep. He has never been complimented before on his behavior – never. He now thinks back on himself and thanks you for thinking of him as, well, kind of elegant and proper. He’s never been thought of that way ever before. Thank you again. Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey there! Dear dyenths – And now, after having responded elsewhere to the spoiler thingie, I will say a couple of words about stuff written here – though I haven’t got lots to say about all of it – a couple of things were sparked by stuff you said. i appreciate the response. First – your thing about "slipping" and saying you wanted to play the part of Joseph? It reminds me of a time I "slipped" w/out even knowing back then – a bit of evidence I look back to that, yes, Beauty, you really are a multiple, okay? I was a pupil at a kindergarten run by a Frenchwoman – wonderful, because my mthr also taught French, and I had learned some of the language since little, little, and songs and stuff – so it was great. (This was the same school, by the way, in which I made my stage debut as Little Red Riding Hood.) Okay, so this woman had this European thing about handing out lunch boxes at lunch time – very formal, and all. She would hold up a lunch box, read the name on it, and call out the person’s name, and the person would come up and take it from her. If the person was a boy, he would bow and then take the box, and if the person was a girl, she would curtsy and then take the box. (No kidding. This really happened. I thought it was pretty weird even back then at five, but anyhow . . .) Well, one day, the lunch box thing was going on, and about five boys in a row got called up, w/out a girl interspersed, so we were just sitting there, apparently kind of tranced out (maybe we were hungry and that played into it somehow) – and we can’t say from this long distance in time who it was who was watching or who went to answer for the lunch box, but when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow. Oooops. And everyone in the room exploded w/laughter. aww….. I’ve certainly had more moments like that than I can count. Laughing at me was a favored activity amongst my peers in public school. Please tell Eric for me that I see a splendid picture of him making his terribly elegant, utterly correct bow…and i envy him, i think, for his self-presence – if that makes any sense. :-) Not ooooops, then – we saw red – and picked up our chair, brandishing it as if to fling it across the room – we were soooo embarrassed, and we can tell you for sure, now, today, who was out at that point: it was Eric, who gets massively triggered by humiliation and responds w/terrible aggression. Okay, so not funny anymore, suddenly, and teacher puts us in supplies closet w/face to wall as consequence. (it was a huge, walk-in closet, and the door not closed – it wasn’t a traumatic absve thing in itself.) We can remember standing there thinking – we can never lve her again after this, for laughing at us, and for not understanding that it was the laughter that made us do the chair thing. We remember there was a teddy in the closet, but it wasn’t possible for us to take comfort in that. We were dissed out majorly at that point. And after a little while – I think after all the boxes were handed out – she did come right in and hugged us and said she knew we hadn’t meant to do that, etc., and got us to come out. And we got back to our table, and we saw that she had opened our box and laid out our lunch and even poured our chocolate milk into our thermos cup for us – it was amazing to us that she had done this so care-fully for us. that was wonderfully sweet of her. I’m not sure I’ve *ever* had any teachers who were that kind, outside of (private) high school. Though there was a nurse at the school I attended from 5-7th grades who was kind and sympathetic to me. School often felt unbearable to me, and in 7th grade particularly I went to the nurse’s office a lot. She’d let me hang out til I felt better, or if I didn’t feel better, she’d call my folks to come get me cuz I was sick. You know, I just now made the connection between feeling so miserable all the time – tired, nauseated, whatever – with the multiple inf*ctions running thru me, most notably in my tooth and an ingrown toenail. That didn’t clear up til I was in 8th grade. … I wish there were more parts of my childhood that weren’t terrible. Be well, friend. dyenths We didn’t be hungry though, only still sad, and we still did think that she would never lve us again and we could never lve her again after what had happened. So that is our story about slipping and accidentally being a boy that day. (There were other times when, for various reasons, we had to wear pants in school, in a time when no girl ever wore pants – and that was a weird thing, too – kind of didn’t know who we were at all, and felt alien all day.) Oh, and then one other thing you wrote resonated for us. We have times esp. in the past (before our nice little drug D*pakote) when we would yell at husb., and we have to say that we agree w/your husb. that we do think, as our husb. did and does, that it is absve. It’s hard – it was impossible for me not to for such a long time, and we thought it was a moral defect. But we are so thankful that we found a med that helps, because it never occurred to us that it was possible – and it doesn’t tranq us out or anything, it just keeps us from being a h*llion. Many regards from – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I find it powerfully strange how different Blue is from me. I have no idea who "me" is, at this point in time. Feels like Luc, Thomas or Jen – it’s hard to tell most times. However, having nearly written "ofttimes" makes me think I’m Luc. But most of us reflect upon the fact that Blue feels so very different from Jen. One might recall, though it’s unlikely, that for many years we were only allowed out if we pretended to be Jen. Blue never would pretend, so Jen had to use denial for Blue. We used to think he never came out at all, but … but I digress. The thing is, at any given time there’s a greater than 50% chance we have no idea who’s on first – and this doesn’t matter in the least. We’re functional, we get thru our days, we switch if we need to…so who cares? But having no idea who’s on first sorta means that we feel like Jen, if that makes any sense. Rather, we feel like Jen’s idea of herself, not like Jen herself. Cuz Jen’s a little. Taken on her own, she age-slides right back down to abt 5 or 6, and she’s terrified. In control and coconscious, Jen’s my main big – or so *she* thinks. In actuality that honor goes to Thomas. But part of Jen’s self-image includes feeling like Thomas, if that makes sense. Because Jen *believed* that Thomas was her – so any living we’ve done as Thomas, Jen claims as her own. And we’ve lived a *lot* of our life as Thomas. But that’s besides the point. Thomas’ image of himself – or "how I know I’m Thomas" is a feeling of cold remoteness when he’s doing his job. The rest of the time he feels sorta like a male Jen. But he knows perfectly well that the body is female, that we’re in a het relationship, that he must conform to society’s expectations as dictated by Jen. If he breaks that mold occasionally – buying men’s dress shoes cuz they look butch – slipping and telling the m*n*ster we wanna play Joseph in the improptu xms play (in the middle of the service..in front of the whole ch*rch…i coulda d!ed of embarrasssment! but we *did* wanna play Joseph! *sigh* it’s not widely known in my life that i’m bi.) Blue, on the other hand, doesn’t feel like Jen, doesn’t acknowledge being female – yup, the nose just twitched in

Response:

hey there, friend. Please convey "you’re welcome" to Eric when you can. Also I wanted to mention to Eric that the only reason I got the image of him making an elegant, proper bow was from the words you, Beauty, used to describe it originally: "…when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow." Although you perhaps were not trying to convey a positive image of Eric’s bow, you did convey it nonetheless. Eric might consider thanking you, as well. Clearly you also thought his bow was "grand and gallant". Knowing you, I can’t imagine his bow could be anything *but* grand and gallant. :-) *Gloriana curtseys with flourishes before Eric* dyenths

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dear dyenths – Glad you were able to figure out something about the illness stuff – even though the memories are, um, painful. I got tormented a lot in different kinds of school settings, too, while in others I did marvelously. Depended on the school. Your comments for Eric went deep. He has never been complimented before on his behavior – never. He now thinks back on himself and thanks you for thinking of him as, well, kind of elegant and proper. He’s never been thought of that way ever before. Thank you again. Beauty. hey there! Dear dyenths – And now, after having responded elsewhere to the spoiler thingie, I will say a couple of words about stuff written here – though I haven’t got lots to say about all of it – a couple of things were sparked by stuff you said. i appreciate the response. First – your thing about "slipping" and saying you wanted to play the part of Joseph? It reminds me of a time I "slipped" w/out even knowing back then – a bit of evidence I look back to that, yes, Beauty, you really are a multiple, okay? I was a pupil at a kindergarten run by a Frenchwoman – wonderful, because my mthr also taught French, and I had learned some of the language since little, little, and songs and stuff – so it was great. (This was the same school, by the way, in which I made my stage debut as Little Red Riding Hood.) Okay, so this woman had this European thing about handing out lunch boxes at lunch time – very formal, and all. She would hold up a lunch box, read the name on it, and call out the person’s name, and the person would come up and take it from her. If the person was a boy, he would bow and then take the box, and if the person was a girl, she would curtsy and then take the box. (No kidding. This really happened. I thought it was pretty weird even back then at five, but anyhow . . .) Well, one day, the lunch box thing was going on, and about five boys in a row got called up, w/out a girl interspersed, so we were just sitting there, apparently kind of tranced out (maybe we were hungry and that played into it somehow) – and we can’t say from this long distance in time who it was who was watching or who went to answer for the lunch box, but when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow. Oooops. And everyone in the room exploded w/laughter. aww….. I’ve certainly had more moments like that than I can count. Laughing at me was a favored activity amongst my peers in public school. Please tell Eric for me that I see a splendid picture of him making his terribly elegant, utterly correct bow…and i envy him, i think, for his self-presence – if that makes any sense. :-) Not ooooops, then – we saw red – and picked up our chair, brandishing it as if to fling it across the room – we were soooo embarrassed, and we can tell you for sure, now, today, who was out at that point: it was Eric, who gets massively triggered by humiliation and responds w/terrible aggression. Okay, so not funny anymore, suddenly, and teacher puts us in supplies closet w/face to wall as consequence. (it was a huge, walk-in closet, and the door not closed – it wasn’t a traumatic absve thing in itself.) We can remember standing there thinking – we can never lve her again after this, for laughing at us, and for not understanding that it was the laughter that made us do the chair thing. We remember there was a teddy in the closet, but it wasn’t possible for us to take comfort in that. We were dissed out majorly at that point. And after a little while – I think after all the boxes were handed out – she did come right in and hugged us and said she knew we hadn’t meant to do that, etc., and got us to come out. And we got back to our table, and we saw that she had opened our box and laid out our lunch and even poured our chocolate milk into our thermos cup for us – it was amazing to us that she had done this so care-fully for us. that was wonderfully sweet of her. I’m not sure I’ve *ever* had any teachers who were that kind, outside of (private) high school. Though there was a nurse at the school I attended from 5-7th grades who was kind and sympathetic to me. School often felt unbearable to me, and in 7th grade particularly I went to the nurse’s office a lot. She’d let me hang out til I felt better, or if I didn’t feel better, she’d call my folks to come get me cuz I was sick. You know, I just now made the connection between feeling so miserable all the time – tired, nauseated, whatever – with the multiple inf*ctions running thru me, most notably in my tooth and an ingrown toenail. That didn’t clear up til I was in 8th grade. … I wish there were more parts of my childhood that weren’t terrible. Be well, friend. dyenths We didn’t be hungry though, only still sad, and we still did think that she would never lve us again and we could never lve her again after what had happened. So that is our story about slipping and accidentally being a boy that day. (There were other times when, for various reasons, we had to wear pants in school, in a time when no girl ever wore pants – and that was a weird thing, too – kind of didn’t know who we were at all, and felt alien all day.) Oh, and then one other thing you wrote resonated for us. We have times esp. in the past (before our nice little drug D*pakote) when we would yell at husb., and we have to say that we agree w/your husb. that we do think, as our husb. did and does, that it is absve. It’s hard – it was impossible for me not to for such a long time, and we thought it was a moral defect. But we are so thankful that we found a med that helps, because it never occurred to us that it was possible – and it doesn’t tranq us out or anything, it just keeps us from being a h*llion. Many regards from – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . I find it powerfully strange how different Blue is from me. I have no idea who "me" is, at this point in time. Feels like Luc, Thomas or Jen – it’s hard to tell most times. However, having nearly written "ofttimes" makes me think I’m Luc. But most of us reflect upon the fact that Blue feels so very different from Jen. One might recall, though it’s unlikely, that for many years we were only allowed out if we pretended to be Jen. Blue never would pretend, so Jen had to use denial for Blue. We used to think he never came out at all, but … but I digress. The thing is, at any given time there’s a greater than 50% chance we have no idea who’s on first – and this doesn’t matter in the least. We’re functional, we get thru our days, we switch if we need to…so who cares? But having no idea who’s on first sorta means that we feel like Jen, if that makes any sense. Rather, we feel like Jen’s idea of herself, not like Jen herself. Cuz Jen’s a little. Taken on her own, she age-slides right back down to abt 5 or 6, and she’s

Response:

i’m back, and i’m trying to keep up with these

discussions. i want to say just a couple of things. i started the whole thing with a request for spoilers that are specific about the subject being discussed, and maybe i too should have been more specific. i worded my request as i did because

non-specific spoilers show up here over and over, mostly, i think, by well-meaning newer members who aren’t yet completely familiar with the

spoilering/splatting conventions here. sometimes they take the form of "spoilered because i don’t know what i might say." well, neither do i, and that’s the point of the spoiler, to let people know.

I’ve noticed that if I spoiler something as I begin to write, often I’ll go back up and amend the spoiler after I’m done. (I had considered doing that in the post of mine that bothered you, but I was in dire straits by the end of it. That’s why Gloriana came out.) Perhaps a general rule of thumb could be that one should write whatever one intends/needs to write, and *then* go back and put in the spoiler, possibly with a reread to ensure nothing was left out of the spoiler. I intend to follow this in future. I also will make an effort to state specifically which of the major trigger topics are *not* mentioned, if that helps. One problem I have with doing that, however, is that how does one word a spoiler so that the wording of the *spoiler* isn’t triggery? Splats, obviously, but as was mentioned elsewhere, often one’s mind reads the splatted words as the words themselves without the intended speedbump to keep the kids safe (or whatever. that’s my interpretation) I kind of like the idea of a spoiler rating system, with letters or something to refer to triggery words. Of course, I know that it’s hard for ppl to remember what the letters stand for. Perhaps part-way thru the spoiler, one could write what the references are. Though that gets pretty complicated….. But for me, regardless of what is needed generally for spoilers, I’m going to spoiler after I write, and include a reference to stuff that specifically isn’t talked about. When I’m triggered by something, my reaction is not as severe or disruptive to my life as others’ reactions are or could easily be. So it’s often hard for me to pick up the fact that something I write that seems ok to me could be a problem for someone else. So if I’m saying "spoilered for this and that, but no mention of the other thing" when I write, that forces me to consider whether there’s been mention of any of the major trigger issues. so the request had been in my mind for a long time, and it just took one more post to crystallize it. that post

happened to be yours, dyenths (sorry if i’ve got your name wrong).

name’s right. i kinda figgered that. which, on a somewhat less than conscious level, is why i couldn’t not take your post personally. That made me think about what it means to take something personally, and I think there’s the sense of what the words actually mean, then there’s the societal import that’s usually associated with them. (it gets wordy here…luc’s on a roll. ignore if you wish) When someone says "I don’t mean this personally" what it seems to me that they’re actually trying to convey is "I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings and/or be thought of as inconsiderate or unkind or whatever". But occasionally (ok, "often", but i don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or be thought of as unkind. ;) ) when one has need of writing "I don’t mean to single anyone out" in reality there’s someone they have in mind that prompted this. The proverbial last straw on the camel’s back. So it was hard for me to say "I know you didn’t want me to take this personally" when I had a pretty good idea that my post may have prompted your request. What I wanted to communicate was: I know that you don’t intend to cause hurt, and I don’t see you as unkind in the least. But I know that you probably had me in mind when you wrote this. Actually, it’s fortuitous for me that Jen got triggered by this miscommunication, cuz I’m getting some decent work done with her on codependency stuff, and she’s manifesting inside as a little instead of pretending to be a big. That’s definitely positive. this is what happened. your post contained this spoiler: "spoilered fer talk abt energy stuff that i don’t expect ppl to believe so i feel i hafta spoiler so somehow ppl won’t think i’m a total weirdo or something bizarre like that… little bit of talk of abse. well

splatted." people have posted here before about "energy stuff" that many people don’t believe, having to do with the fact that when they’re around, clocks and watches stop, computers go flooey, television images turn snowy, and other similar things. that’s what came to my mind when i read your

spoiler warning. so i read your post and was unprepared to find that you were

talking about a very different kind of energy.

(it’s actually the same general kind of energy, just there are different subtypes) the problem was that your spoiler didn’t mention sx *at all,* yet that’s one form of energy you were

referring to, and that’s what your post was largely about.

my fault. i’d posted abt this before, several times. and to me the fact that the energy is sxl energy has become separated from the fact that it’s related to sx. It’s more like here’s this energy. One of the things this energy is used for is sxl stuff. But it’s also used for healing the body, public speaking, singing, creative arts in general…..it just happens that the shorthand for talking about it is to call it sxl energy, cuz that’s what most ppl associate with it. And perhaps that’s when it’s strongest. So to me it’s one of 2 basic types of energy that I’m familiar with, and it’s one that I’m way out of balance with, and something that’s causing me lotsa problems. I didn’t consider the fact that not everyone makes that distinction. you did say that there was a "little bit of talk of abse," but ab*se doesn’t necessarily mean sa, not to me, so i was also unprepared to read what to me was a vivid image of a certain kind of sa.

sorry. it’s all part and parcel of the same thing. thought the spoiler was good enough. thought splatting was good enough. will act differently next time. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – the other thing i want to say is that i also thought you were pouting about being asked to spoiler. i know differently now, but one thing that added to my misunderstanding was that that part of your post was signed, or attributed to, "-G." i didn’t know that that meant Gloriana. if i had known that, i still wouldn’t have known what sort of interpretation was called for. i don’t know much about your system and don’t know your (their) names. a lot of people use the letter g to represent a grin, and that’s what i thought it meant in your post.

I can see where that would cause confusion. And I apologize for not being in a position to have been able to require Gloriana to be more circumspect or clear in what she was attempting to communicate. I can apologize all I want for this "misunderstanding", but the truth remains that Gloriana intended to stir up a tempest in a teapot to draw attention away from the fact that Blue was freaking out. And I was too upset by the fact that Blue was freaking out to catch Gloriana’s intent. at any rate, i agree with you that much of the confusion arose from your using splats and spoilers interchangeably. some of it came from my not knowing your system and how to interpret things you (they) say. but i understand your thinking a little better now.

I’m glad. And it’s good for me to know when I’m doing something that’s not quite right: it’s a good bet I don’t realize it, otherwise I wouldn’t be doing it. If it helps any, in future you can adress any specific concerns to me thru email (and still write the general requests, if whatever I’m doing that’s causing problems is part of a trend on the ng). I work hard at accepting stuff in the spirit it was intended. If you want to, you can address Luc in my system specifically. He’s intellectual and not as prone to codependent reactions. warm thoughts… dyenths – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – tess hiya, beauty. :) i just got around to reading this post, cuz i didn’t read all of betsy’s response, so i didn’t want to read any replies to it. now i feel silly, cuz you said basically what I said, only I think you said it first – and, of course, better than I could. :) i’ve always thought that one of the best parts *about* this ng is the fact that i can say *whatever i want to*, as long as i warn people. and i thought i was doing ok at that. but i don’t think i was doing quite enough. Jen’s histrionics aside, I feel badly about the fact that I’ve triggered ppl, even while trying not to. For the future, I can say that I have a better understanding of the different uses of spoilers and splats. My bad was in thinking they were sorta interchangeable. Meanwhile, I’m struggling to overcome the internal censors who…(ok, fine – it’s not more than one censor. It’s Jen.) I’m struggling to still Jen’s panic, since my biggest remaining issues got triggered by this. There are several issues that have triggered me: one is having caused h*rm to another. right on the heels of that is having thought i was following the rules "good enough". That’s a big issue for me because the rules always changed when i was young. but it was always my fault if i broke a rule. the truth is that it was all arbitrary when i was a kid. "rules" that i was "supposed" to know could be

Response:

Good, good, point here, dyenths. Sometimes we don’t even see what we sees. Thanks for pointing that out. You be good about what you sees sometimes. You haves good eyesight, so to speak. (Wish we had a nice lunchbox to present Gloriana with – that being the answer to curtseying and all.) Now we are thinking even more deeply – know what? That lunchbox we had – the mthr picked it for us, so we think, but we are not sure – it was a R*y R*gers lunchbox. It *could* have been our pick, because it had a horse on it – but we didn’t even really know that personage – though we were absolutely enamored of a cowgirl on local TV in PA, known as S*lly St*r, and we were completely convinced that when she said hello and good-bye that she was speaking directly to *us* – so maybe the lunchbox was about that, whether in the mthr’s eyes or ours. Anyhow, doesn’t it make sense, the lunchbox being what it was, that Eric might have identified w/it, more than the girls did? And there was at least one other lunchbox like ours in the school, and it belonged to a boy, we are pretty sure. All kind of starts to add up. Gee. Isn’t it amazing how much you can still figure out about stuff when you start recollecting? Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey there, friend. Please convey "you’re welcome" to Eric when you can. Also I wanted to mention to Eric that the only reason I got the image of him making an elegant, proper bow was from the words you, Beauty, used to describe it originally: "…when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow." Although you perhaps were not trying to convey a positive image of Eric’s bow, you did convey it nonetheless. Eric might consider thanking you, as well. Clearly you also thought his bow was "grand and gallant". Knowing you, I can’t imagine his bow could be anything *but* grand and gallant. :-) *Gloriana curtseys with flourishes before Eric* dyenths Dear dyenths – Glad you were able to figure out something about the illness stuff – even though the memories are, um, painful. I got tormented a lot in different kinds of school settings, too, while in others I did marvelously. Depended on the school. Your comments for Eric went deep. He has never been complimented before on his behavior – never. He now thinks back on himself and thanks you for thinking of him as, well, kind of elegant and proper. He’s never been thought of that way ever before. Thank you again. Beauty. hey there! Dear dyenths – And now, after having responded elsewhere to the spoiler thingie, I will say a couple of words about stuff written here – though I haven’t got lots to say about all of it – a couple of things were sparked by stuff you said. i appreciate the response. First – your thing about "slipping" and saying you wanted to play the part of Joseph? It reminds me of a time I "slipped" w/out even knowing back then – a bit of evidence I look back to that, yes, Beauty, you really are a multiple, okay? I was a pupil at a kindergarten run by a Frenchwoman – wonderful, because my mthr also taught French, and I had learned some of the language since little, little, and songs and stuff – so it was great. (This was the same school, by the way, in which I made my stage debut as Little Red Riding Hood.) Okay, so this woman had this European thing about handing out lunch boxes at lunch time – very formal, and all. She would hold up a lunch box, read the name on it, and call out the person’s name, and the person would come up and take it from her. If the person was a boy, he would bow and then take the box, and if the person was a girl, she would curtsy and then take the box. (No kidding. This really happened. I thought it was pretty weird even back then at five, but anyhow . . .) Well, one day, the lunch box thing was going on, and about five boys in a row got called up, w/out a girl interspersed, so we were just sitting there, apparently kind of tranced out (maybe we were hungry and that played into it somehow) – and we can’t say from this long distance in time who it was who was watching or who went to answer for the lunch box, but when we went up, just as grand and gallant as anything, we made our bow. Oooops. And everyone in the room exploded w/laughter. aww….. I’ve certainly had more moments like that than I can count. Laughing at me was a favored activity amongst my peers in public school. Please tell Eric for me that I see a splendid picture of him making his terribly elegant, utterly correct bow…and i envy him, i think, for his self-presence – if that makes any sense. :-) Not ooooops, then – we saw red – and picked up our chair, brandishing it as if to fling it across the room – we were soooo embarrassed, and we can tell you for sure, now, today, who was out at that point: it was Eric, who gets massively triggered by humiliation and responds w/terrible aggression. Okay, so not funny anymore, suddenly, and teacher puts us in supplies closet w/face to wall as consequence. (it was a huge, walk-in closet, and the door not closed – it wasn’t a traumatic absve thing in itself.) We can remember standing there thinking – we can never lve her again after this, for laughing at us, and for not understanding that it was the laughter that made us do the chair thing. We remember there was a teddy in the closet, but it wasn’t possible for us to take comfort in that. We were dissed out majorly at that point. And after a little while – I think after all the boxes were handed out – she did come right in and hugged us and said she knew we hadn’t meant to do that, etc., and got us to come out. And we got back to our table, and we saw that she had opened our box and laid out our lunch and even poured our chocolate milk into our thermos cup for us – it was amazing to us that she had done this so care-fully for us. that was wonderfully sweet of her. I’m not sure I’ve *ever* had any teachers who were that kind, outside of (private) high school. Though there was a nurse at the school I attended from 5-7th grades who was kind and sympathetic to me. School often felt unbearable to me, and in 7th grade particularly I went to the nurse’s office a lot. She’d let me hang out til I felt better, or if I didn’t feel better, she’d call my folks to come get me cuz I was sick. You know, I just now made the connection between feeling so miserable all the time – tired, nauseated, whatever – with the multiple inf*ctions running thru me, most notably in my tooth and an ingrown toenail. That didn’t clear up til I was in 8th grade. … I wish there were more parts of my childhood that weren’t terrible. Be well, friend. dyenths We didn’t be hungry though, only still sad, and we still did think that she would never lve us again and we could never lve her again after what had happened. So that is our story about slipping and accidentally being a boy that day. (There were other times when, for various reasons, we had to wear pants in school, in a time when no girl ever wore pants – and that was a weird thing, too – kind of didn’t know who we were at all, and felt alien all day.) Oh, and then one other thing you wrote resonated for us. We have times esp. in the past (before our nice little drug D*pakote) when we would yell at husb., and we have to say that we agree w/your husb. that we do think, as our husb. did and does, that it is absve. It’s hard – it was impossible for me not to for such a long time, and we thought it was a moral defect. But we are so thankful that we found a med that helps, because it never occurred to us that it was possible – and it doesn’t tranq us out or anything, it just keeps us from being a h*llion. Many regards from – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets

Response:

Me thinkest that thou art wise beyond even your great beauty, and my thanks for your kind words to Jen. Your recent words about heightened sensitivities has had great import here, and we consider them anon. It occurs today, for example, that people like us have difficulty finding thpsts who can help us because we see more clearly, perhaps, than other clients might, making it more difficult for T’s to prevaricate and stay safe themselves, since they’re human, too. Indeed, my T is learning that he must tell me exactly what he’s found amusing when he chuckles as we talk, otherwise I get scared and break off some level of communication. I can see him thinking about whether or not to tell me or to shrug it off as he’d normally do, and then he tells me, even if maybe it’s not something he’d be proud of. It helps me so much that he does that. But it’s *very* difficult to tell someone what one found amusing everytime one chuckles. I try it occasionally. It interests me. Any relevence herein to the subject matter previously under discussion must lie with the connection to uncovering one’s depths to heighten communication and understanding. I am gratified that one such as yourself is capable of understanding my preferred form of writing, beauty. Few tolerate me with ease when I write thusly. *eyes twinkle in amusement* Luc for dyenths *courtly bow to dyenths, much to her amusement*

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello Luc and all of dyenths – Just one more word here. I don’t think of spoilering, splatting, avoiding cross-posting, etc., as "rules." I think of them as guidelines for helping each other stay safe. So, see, since they aren’t rules, you didn’t break any rules. Or Jen didn’t, or whatever. (Tell her I said so. Also, please tell her I know she never has meant to hurt anyone, and that I think she has a great heart, okay?) Mm, what else? I guess that’s it. So, give yourselves some slack here: I think we can all chalk it up to deeper understandings of one another, yes? I hope so. And that might go for others reading who haven’t spoken up, too – maybe the fact of your having been kind of the "center" of this discussion has *helped* a whole bunch of peoples that you don’t have any idea about, because it helped clarify a bunch of issues for everyone. What thinkest thou? Beauty. hiya, beauty. :) i just got around to reading this post, cuz i didn’t read all of betsy’s response, so i didn’t want to read any replies to it. now i feel silly, cuz you said basically what I said, only I think you said it first – and, of course, better than I could. :) i’ve always thought that one of the best parts *about* this ng is the fact that i can say *whatever i want to*, as long as i warn people. and i thought i was doing ok at that. but i don’t think i was doing quite enough. Jen’s histrionics aside, I feel badly about the fact that I’ve triggered ppl, even while trying not to. For the future, I can say that I have a better understanding of the different uses of spoilers and splats. My bad was in thinking they were sorta interchangeable. Meanwhile, I’m struggling to overcome the internal censors who…(ok, fine – it’s not more than one censor. It’s Jen.) I’m struggling to still Jen’s panic, since my biggest remaining issues got triggered by this. There are several issues that have triggered me: one is having caused h*rm to another. right on the heels of that is having thought i was following the rules "good enough". That’s a big issue for me because the rules always changed when i was young. but it was always my fault if i broke a rule. the truth is that it was all arbitrary when i was a kid. "rules" that i was "supposed" to know could be things I’d never been told to do or not do, or things that the day before had been ok to do. worst was when the rule flipped completely: one day i’d break the rule "you must always x", and the next day i’d do x and be told that i broke the rule "you must never x". or i’d do x, then be accused of not doing x, even though i’d done it. the worst part here-and-now is that i still can’t get jen to believe that it wasn’t her fault. that the rules were excuses to blame me for whatever else was wrong. that it didn’t matter what i did or didn’t do: the result would be the same. jen doesn’t believe that. my entire life is still predicated on the notion that if she just learns the rules good enough, she can keep the bad stuff from happening. that’s why jen’s been in thpy for over 17 years. i’ve reached the point of being unable to expound on this topic because of Jen’s fear of seeming manipulative or inappropriate. Please let it suffice to say that Jen’s reaction to this issue is in the nature of an exaggerated startle response, a la PTSD. it’s made it very difficult to write. one last point. you mention that "it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone." that’s actually what G was *trying* to get at, in her own fashion. Her response to the listing of the *major* issues to be handled with care was "of *course*! Duh! I *know* about *those*!!!" Please note that that was Gloriana’s response, and hasn’t been subjected to Jen’s censorship, providing I include this note. Her frustration regarded the impossibility of avoiding all triggery issues. This is significant because Jen’s immediate response to the initial request for spoilers was to inform the rest of us that we have to make sure to spoiler everything that could cause a problem. Gloriana’s expression of frustration also was necessary for me to be able to submit a post at all at that point. In some way it was an effort to let Jen know she’s being unreasonable. fond adieu, Luc, for dyenths Hi betsy and dyenths Yeah, I guess I wanted to emphasize and elaborate on something you, betsy, said, which is that the purpose of spoilers is *not* censorship. I wanted to say that it is exactly the opposite: it is to provide a way of allowing someone complete freedom to go for whatever needs to be said w/out worrying about how it’s going to affect anyone else. Really. That’s what it’s about. And in times past, there have been lots of really explicit things discussed under spoilers – it depends on who is active in the group at the time what the character of the group might be in terms of what gets discussed, what is on peoples’ minds. There was a period in which I was active in the past when quite a few people were writing very graphically about sx and/or abse, for instance – and we think that’s one reason for asd being here in the first place, because people need a place where that can be discussed. So spoilers really kind of indicate a "no holds barred" kind of thing, not a constraint. And – as for lists of things that should be spoilered, well, anyone here could probably tell you that it isn’t possible to anticipate everything that might upset someone. I mean, suppose someone was f*rced to e*t potatoes, or something, and they didn’t want to – well, then, that food might be a trigger. See? And of course there isn’t any way of knowing. And no one would expect anyone to spoiler for that. So we just do the best we can for the obvious stuff, and for stuff that we have some sense might be a problem (like 9/11, for example, as you say) – and no one can ask for more than that. And no one does or will. Oh – and I think it’s okay to ask for spoilers if peoples have forgotten to use them or haven’t gotten familiar w/the conventions. I think it’s okay and important. That’s what I think. Most respectfully yours – Beauty. this is abt blue’s relationship with my hubby. am going to spoiler cuz blue’s probably gonna start cussing at some point. brief references to s*x likely. let’s see…i mention sx, phys & emot’l abse, ch*rch, 9/11, um…sheesh…can someone please get me a list of all the things that need to be spoilered, so i can go down the list each time i post and check things off? Maybe I could just have the list be my stationery and could just put *’s next to each thing that gets mentioned, no matter how briefly? I feel guilty if I say something that triggers somebody, but I thought the FAQ said that one can say anything under a spoiler? darn…i was gonna get my own post to talk about this stuff, as long as i didn’t mention it here…..*pout* well, enjoy Blue’s tale of woe… -G i don’t know why you are pouting about following the original conventions of this group. no one is asking you to do anything unique from the rest of the group. oftentimes ppl will simply say "spoilered for anger and potential triggers" or something along those lines to give ppl a chance to be safe. if you want to keep feeling like you are a victim of the needs of many at this group and the guidelines

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i’m back, and i’m trying to keep up with these discussions. i want to say just a couple of things. i started the whole thing with a request for spoilers that are specific about the subject being discussed, and maybe i too should have been more specific. i worded my request as i did because non-specific spoilers show up here over and over, mostly, i think, by well-meaning newer members who aren’t yet completely familiar with the spoilering/splatting conventions here. sometimes they take the form of "spoilered because i don’t know what i might say." well, neither do i, and that’s the point of the spoiler, to let people know. I’ve noticed that if I spoiler something as I begin to write, often I’ll go back up and amend the spoiler after I’m done. (I had considered doing that in the post of mine that bothered you, but I was in dire straits by the end of it. That’s why Gloriana came out.) Perhaps a general rule of thumb could be that one should write whatever one intends/needs to write, and *then* go back and put in the spoiler, possibly with a reread to ensure nothing was left out of the spoiler. I intend to follow this in future.

i think it’s a good idea. it’s what i would do. if it feels comfortable for you to write that way too, then that’s good. i’m not interested in establishing rules of thumb for anyone but myself though, beyond the conventions already in place for the group. i’m starting to feel way bogged down in this whole issue. it’s starting to feel far more complicated than the framers of the faq/sysk, and i, ever intended. I also will make an effort to state specifically which of the major trigger topics are *not* mentioned, if that helps. One problem I have with doing that, however, is that how does one word a spoiler so that the wording of the *spoiler* isn’t triggery?

there’s no way to keep every person here 100% safe 100% of the time. identify the general subject in a spoiler, with the word splatted if necessary, and don’t worry about it beyond that. i think we all assume a certain risk just by being here on the group in the first place, cuz it’s a public place populated by diverse people with diverse needs. Splats, obviously, but as was mentioned elsewhere, often one’s mind reads the splatted words as the words themselves without the intended speedbump to keep the kids safe (or whatever. that’s my interpretation)

right, but it’s not possible to tailor every thought to every reader’s mind. that’s why the group has *general* guidelines and each reader has, imo, the responsibility for keeping hirself safe regarding specifics beyond that. the exception to this, i think, is when the splatted words appear in the subject instead of in the spoiler. in that case, the reader is really helpless to defend hirself against triggering words beyond the first spoilered post because the words show up over and over in the message list. I kind of like the idea of a spoiler rating system, with letters or something to refer to triggery words. Of course, I know that it’s hard for ppl to remember what the letters stand for. Perhaps part-way thru the spoiler, one could write what the references are. Though that gets pretty complicated…..

we already have letters for all sorts of things. sa, pa, ea, the I word, tpy, like that. But for me, regardless of what is needed generally for spoilers, I’m going to spoiler after I write, and include a reference to stuff that specifically isn’t talked about. When I’m triggered by something, my reaction is not as severe or disruptive to my life as others’ reactions are or could easily be. So it’s often hard for me to pick up the fact that something I write that seems ok to me could be a problem for someone else. So if I’m saying "spoilered for this and that, but no mention of the other thing" when I write, that forces me to consider whether there’s been mention of any of the major trigger issues.

that’s a good idea. what i do is write with a specific person or persons in mind who i know are triggered by certain things, and i try to word my post in a way that they’ll be comfortable with. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – so the request had been in my mind for a long time, and it just took one more post to crystallize it. that post happened to be yours, dyenths (sorry if i’ve got your name wrong). name’s right. i kinda figgered that. which, on a somewhat less than conscious level, is why i couldn’t not take your post personally. That made me think about what it means to take something personally, and I think there’s the sense of what the words actually mean, then there’s the societal import that’s usually associated with them. (it gets wordy here…luc’s on a roll. ignore if you wish) When someone says "I don’t mean this personally" what it seems to me that they’re actually trying to convey is "I don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings and/or be thought of as inconsiderate or unkind or whatever". But occasionally (ok, "often", but i don’t want to hurt anyone’s feelings or be thought of as unkind. ;) ) when one has need of writing "I don’t mean to single anyone out" in reality there’s someone they have in mind that prompted this. The proverbial last straw on the camel’s back.

yes. So it was hard for me to say "I know you didn’t want me to take this personally" when I had a pretty good idea that my post may have prompted your request. What I wanted to communicate was: I know that you don’t intend to cause hurt, and I don’t see you as unkind in the least. But I know that you probably had me in mind when you wrote this.

again, yes. social shorthand is often more trouble than it’s worth. sorry. Actually, it’s fortuitous for me that Jen got triggered by this miscommunication, cuz I’m getting some decent work done with her on codependency stuff, and she’s manifesting inside as a little instead of pretending to be a big. That’s definitely positive.

that’s one of the greatest benefits of this group, imo. it’s a safe place to learn how to get along with people, including ourselves, set boundaries, assert our needs, be mindful and considerate of others’ needs. we inadvertently trigger or upset each other, which is inevitable, i think, but we can work it out without courting disaster, as so often happens in rl. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – this is what happened. your post contained this spoiler: "spoilered fer talk abt energy stuff that i don’t expect ppl to believe so i feel i hafta spoiler so somehow ppl won’t think i’m a total weirdo or something bizarre like that… little bit of talk of abse. well splatted." people have posted here before about "energy stuff" that many people don’t believe, having to do with the fact that when they’re around, clocks and watches stop, computers go flooey, television images turn snowy, and other similar things. that’s what came to my mind when i read your spoiler warning. so i read your post and was unprepared to find that you were talking about a very different kind of energy. (it’s actually the same general kind of energy, just there are different subtypes) the problem was that your spoiler didn’t mention sx *at all,* yet that’s one form of energy you were referring to, and that’s what your post was largely about. my fault. i’d posted abt this before, several times.

ok. i didn’t know that. and to me the fact that the energy is sxl energy has become separated from the fact that it’s related to sx. It’s more like here’s this energy. One of the things this energy is used for is sxl stuff. But it’s also used for healing the body, public speaking, singing, creative arts in general…..it just happens that the shorthand for talking about it is to call it sxl energy, cuz that’s what most ppl associate with it. And perhaps that’s when it’s strongest.

sorry, i’m clouding over here and have to let this part of it rest. So to me it’s one of 2 basic types of energy that I’m familiar with, and it’s one that I’m way out of balance with, and something that’s causing me lotsa problems. I didn’t consider the fact that not everyone makes that distinction.

this i understand, the part about not everyone making the same distinction. you did say that there was a "little bit of talk of abse," but ab*se doesn’t necessarily mean sa, not to me, so i was also unprepared to read what to me was a vivid image of a certain kind of sa. sorry.

how about a blanket recognition that you’re sorry, i’m sorry, we’re both sorry, and from now on we don’t both have to keep saying it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – it’s all part and parcel of the same thing. thought the spoiler was good enough. thought splatting was good enough. will act differently next time. the other thing i want to say is that i also thought you were pouting about being asked to spoiler. i know differently now, but one thing that added to my misunderstanding was that that part of your post was signed, or attributed to, "-G." i didn’t know that that meant Gloriana. if i had known that, i still wouldn’t have known what sort of interpretation was called for. i don’t know much about your system and don’t know your (their) names. a lot of people use the letter g to represent a grin, and that’s what i thought it meant in your post. I can see where that would cause confusion. And I apologize for not being in a position to have been able to require Gloriana to be more circumspect or clear in what she was attempting to

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One problem I have with doing that, however, is that how does one word a spoiler so that the wording of the *spoiler* isn’t triggery?

EXACTLY! Dayzie

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