Trauma – PTSD

Question:

<ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1108168722.006455.126700@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving > relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits.

who gets to tell you which of your attitudes are evil and which of your habits are bad?

Response:

ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote <snips poetic-philosophical rant> A relationship only makes sense if it improves the life (sexually, socially, emotionally and maybe economically) of both partners. If it entails too much sacrifices for both or one of the partners, they’d better stay alone.

Response:

Alan, I tend to agree with your fearless approach to love. I know, for me, that love IS a sacrifice. Everything I do out of love for others causes my body serious pain and stress, but for those who CAN receive my small gestures if love, all of the pain is worth it.  Many will only accept a pseudo-love that is wrapped in thousand dollar bills. That is the only "love" they want. They never get enough because it is received by a sleeping heart. Even if the giver does care about that person’s well being outside of his own issues, the materialistic receiver in Truth rejects the intended Love. Real love gladly sacrifices, and is merciful on self and others. Laying everything on this world’s altar is a mistake. But I think that ilya meant the spirit of the particular instance she referred to, and not the broader spectrum of love. And maybe I’m wrong about that. In my own ongoing healing I’ve experienced that even my experience of hell is sacred, because it was my experience. And in my healing (ongoing) I’ve come out of denial that I do have a dark side. Most people are denying their darkness by blaming, punishing, killing others, and they really believe that doing so is justified and somehow justifies them. To be in denial about one’s darkside is to be in bondage to it. Not only that, we also insist that everyone else be in bondage to it too. I’m sure there is a great adventure for me ahead, discovering other things I’m in denial about. It goes on and on forever. Alan B. Mac Farlane" <al…@sonic.net> wrote in message news:BE361DE8.409B%alanb@sonic.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> in article 1108168722.006455.126…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com at ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote on 2/11/05 > 4:38 PM: >> what matters >> in a relationship is sacrifice. > well if you are a victim … with ptsd issues … > try to get off of expectation and judgement ilya … > put love inside where you have that being made up … > and come to love the rattlesnake the way the Great Everywhere Spirit loves > the rattlesnake … > same for how the Great Spirit loves you, loves your childhood, and loves > your parents … and loves your girlfriend who thinks sacrifice is all > about > relationship … > I of course disagee … as I see having fun, making love, and putting out > a > comfortable, happy, exciting plans to live in … is what a relationship > does on the outside … > on the inside … the adults do the work of putting love inside where all > the fear is … the contempt, the judgement, the expectations, the > criticism, the anger,  … all of it and that is from fear … > and carry love around to mix with their intention in what ever they create > … > instead of having hate, fear, judgement and all that negative stuff inside > to carry around and thus mix with the same intention in what ever they > create … > so they are doomed to manifest in the future .. > where they could just as well manifest the love … > GIGO at its best … > all hail God the Father who makes babies with His children … > sumbuddie who cares >

Response:

wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something similar last night with my friends

Response:

D’oh! Occasionally I misread something in funny ways, and have to go back and check. Imagine my surprise when I first read the title of this section, perceiving "enemy" as ending with an "a", rather than a "y". — Nom dePlume, Ph.D Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000 ===== "Laila" <Iilli…@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1110749881.394893.73420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something similar > last night with my friends

Response:

Nom dePlume wrote: > D’oh! Occasionally I misread something in funny ways, and have to go > back and check. Imagine my surprise when I first read the title of > this section, perceiving "enemy" as ending with an "a", rather than a > "y".

Tis amazing how fluid the English language can be. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Laila" <Iilli…@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1110749881.394893.73420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… >> wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something >> similar last night with my friends

Response:

at this point, i think we need to consult a GI.

Response:

in article 1108168722.006455.126…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com at ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote on 2/11/05 4:38 PM: > what matters > in a relationship is sacrifice.

well if you are a victim … with ptsd issues … try to get off of expectation and judgement ilya … put love inside where you have that being made up … and come to love the rattlesnake the way the Great Everywhere Spirit loves the rattlesnake … same for how the Great Spirit loves you, loves your childhood, and loves your parents … and loves your girlfriend who thinks sacrifice is all about relationship … I of course disagee … as I see having fun, making love, and putting out a comfortable, happy, exciting plans to live in … is what a relationship does on the outside … on the inside … the adults do the work of putting love inside where all the fear is … the contempt, the judgement, the expectations, the criticism, the anger,  … all of it and that is from fear … and carry love around to mix with their intention in what ever they create … instead of having hate, fear, judgement and all that negative stuff inside to carry around and thus mix with the same intention in what ever they create … so they are doomed to manifest in the future .. where they could just as well manifest the love … GIGO at its best … all hail God the Father who makes babies with His children … sumbuddie who cares

Response:

"sumire" <sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:dcbc5b3d5c33a8c71771a10cb6cc09ab@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com: > Yet sometimes you actually HAVE to sacrifice > something for love – you have to make a choice > and leave behind something you might miss > and hence make up for later.

I renounced a bag of gummi bears, once, to my lasting regret. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!"  Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com

Response:

artificiallife <phar…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:pan.2005.02.14.06.05.18.273911@yahoo.com: >> Ilya Shambat. > Nice post. Insightful.

For god’s sake, don’t encourage him. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!"  Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:38:42 -0800, ilya_shambat2004 wrote: > A woman I know (not an ex-girlfriend) told me that, when she was > younger, someone wrote her a song. I asked her why had she not married > that man, and she said that writing a song means nothing; what matters > in a relationship is sacrifice. > My mental response: Then you’ve gotten precisely what you deserved in > an abusive marriage that followed. > Sacrifice? What kind of vanity – what kind of sense of entitlement – > what kind of utter lack of concern for the man you claim to love – > would demand such a hideous thing? What kind of cruelty, ignorance and > destructiveness would want someone to sacrifice himself for you? This > is a recipe for misery, not for love and certainly not for happiness. > As people sacrifice themselves to each other, their anger at each > other grows; their resentment of each other grows; and soon enough it > turns into mutual hatred of one another and, from that, abuse by one or > by both parties. > Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving > relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits. Consideration, yes; > caring, yes; compassion, yes; charitability, yes; sensitivity, yes; > sacrifice, no. Loving relationships are life-affirming rather than > death-seeking. Loving relationships affirm and validate each other’s > selves rather than demanding their destruction. Loving relationships > help each other be happy rather than dragging each other into mutual > self-annihilation. Loving relationships help each other to be the best > of who they are rather than seek to demolish each other’s selves as > though they were each other’s worst enemies – the enemies which, of > course, as a result of such attitudes they become. > The idea that relationships are about sacrifice lead the partners to > see each other’s self as their enemy – as something that needs to be > sacrificed in order that the relationship can exist. Is that a recipe > for happiness? Is that a recipe for a life worth living? Or is that a > recipe for mutual hatred – the hatred that is rightly directed against > someone who seeks to destroy one’s self as the price of being with > them? > It is attitudes like this that are responsible for misery in > relationships. I repeat: Nobody who loves you will demand that you > surrender your self. Love is affirming rather than negating, and to > claim sacrifice as the price of love is against everything that is > loving. > After the people who have such attitudes come to their logical > consummation – the morass of resentment and mutual hatred a few years > or even months down the road – they blame it on love, or on romance, or > on youth, or on beauty, when the only thing to blame is their beliefs > and actions they take in pursuance of their beliefs. The people who > demand self-sacrifice as the price of love are people who see the other > person’s self as their enemy and treat them as their worst enemy – and > there is nothing – nothing – less loving and charitable than such an > outcome; the outcome that is the logical consummation of such beliefs. > So to those who believe that love is about sacrifice, I say the > following: You are the reason for most misery in relationships. You > cannot love a person and see their self as your enemy – as something > that needs to be sacrificed – at the same time. And true love is love > that affirms each other’s self rather than seeking to destroy it, or > that seeks sacrifice, or that sees obedience as price of love. > Ilya Shambat.

Nice post. Insightful.

Response:

sumire wrote: > Yes, a general truth. > Demanding sacrifice for love IS destructive. > Yet sometimes you actually HAVE to sacrifice > something for love – you have to make a choice > and leave behind something you might miss > and hence make up for later.

Yes, I allow for that too. I said that you need to sacrifice evil attitudes and bad habits. Of course, that is a sacrifice that in itself leads to good things for you rather than bad ones, and while it may be difficult at first the rewards are more than worth it. What you have then, is a better person than you’d been before. And that is good whether you stay with the woman or not. > You demand an ideal and perfect attitude.

Do I really? > I have never ever met the respective ideal > and perfect person. But many of those striving > for the best way to live love, trying and erring again and again.

I don’t believe in perfection. I believe in being the best of what you can be. > Can we really expect more?

Nope. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

Yes, a general truth. Demanding sacrifice for love IS destructive. Yet sometimes you actually HAVE to sacrifice something for love – you have to make a choice and leave behind something you might miss and hence make up for later. You demand an ideal and perfect attitude. I have never ever met the respective ideal and perfect person. But many of those striving for the best way to live love, trying and erring again and again. Can we really expect more? Sumi

Response:

A woman I know (not an ex-girlfriend) told me that, when she was younger, someone wrote her a song. I asked her why had she not married that man, and she said that writing a song means nothing; what matters in a relationship is sacrifice. My mental response: Then you’ve gotten precisely what you deserved in an abusive marriage that followed. Sacrifice? What kind of vanity – what kind of sense of entitlement – what kind of utter lack of concern for the man you claim to love – would demand such a hideous thing? What kind of cruelty, ignorance and destructiveness would want someone to sacrifice himself for you? This is a recipe for misery, not for love and certainly not for happiness. As people sacrifice themselves to each other, their anger at each other grows; their resentment of each other grows; and soon enough it turns into mutual hatred of one another and, from that, abuse by one or by both parties. Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits. Consideration, yes; caring, yes; compassion, yes; charitability, yes; sensitivity, yes; sacrifice, no. Loving relationships are life-affirming rather than death-seeking. Loving relationships affirm and validate each other’s selves rather than demanding their destruction. Loving relationships help each other be happy rather than dragging each other into mutual self-annihilation. Loving relationships help each other to be the best of who they are rather than seek to demolish each other’s selves as though they were each other’s worst enemies – the enemies which, of course, as a result of such attitudes they become. The idea that relationships are about sacrifice lead the partners to see each other’s self as their enemy – as something that needs to be sacrificed in order that the relationship can exist. Is that a recipe for happiness? Is that a recipe for a life worth living? Or is that a recipe for mutual hatred – the hatred that is rightly directed against someone who seeks to destroy one’s self as the price of being with them? It is attitudes like this that are responsible for misery in relationships. I repeat: Nobody who loves you will demand that you surrender your self. Love is affirming rather than negating, and to claim sacrifice as the price of love is against everything that is loving. After the people who have such attitudes come to their logical consummation – the morass of resentment and mutual hatred a few years or even months down the road – they blame it on love, or on romance, or on youth, or on beauty, when the only thing to blame is their beliefs and actions they take in pursuance of their beliefs. The people who demand self-sacrifice as the price of love are people who see the other person’s self as their enemy and treat them as their worst enemy – and there is nothing – nothing – less loving and charitable than such an outcome; the outcome that is the logical consummation of such beliefs. So to those who believe that love is about sacrifice, I say the following: You are the reason for most misery in relationships. You cannot love a person and see their self as your enemy – as something that needs to be sacrificed – at the same time. And true love is love that affirms each other’s self rather than seeking to destroy it, or that seeks sacrifice, or that sees obedience as price of love. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

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