Question:
STUPID computer!! I saved the post to reply to and now I can’t find it. I swear I’m going to whack this thing with a sledge Anyway, this is a reply to a post by dyenths about integration and then replied to by Sierra. In it dyenths is talking about feeling ‘broken’ and how integrating will fix this problem. Ok, so here’s the spoiler… x x x x x x x x x x x x As far as I can tell, there seem to be at least two ‘types’ of being multiple. In the one the person feels as if they are ‘broken’ or fragmented into more than one person and in the other one the person does not have this sensation. For the person who doesn’t feel as if they are divided up into parts integration makes no sense. For the person who _does_ feel that they are divided up it makes sense. For those of us too dissy to know or care _which_ we are *grin* I guess it’s a crap shoot. I never felt that I was broken or missing pieces or anything but I always felt that if we healed enough from the ptsd stuff we were going to end up if not truly integrated then pretty dang close to it. And in fact that is what happened. For many people here that concept makes no sense. And I would bet that when they find that they have healed from the ptsd stuff or the trauma stuff or the dissy stuff or whatever it is that they need to heal from, they find that they are still just as multiple as before, just functional and happy and all that. Hey! SO just told me where the original was that I saved. Duh, who would have thought to look _there_ 
So, my point is that I think it is all very individual (ooh, pun, sorry) for each system as to how they are going to end up. And I think that we all need to have an open mind(s) *grin* about this as no one can know just what is going to be the outcome of healing. Dyenths feels as if integration is going to ‘fix’ this brokenness but in fact it might be that after healing what needs to be healed they will still be multiple. Rather than get a mind set as to how the outcome should be I think it would be easier for us all if we could just work on what needs to be worked on and let the outcome happen as it does. Rainbow Colors (Jill, who has to stop as there is a meltdown happening in the other room) — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail:
Response:
hey there! thanks fer the reply…more below – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – STUPID computer!! I saved the post to reply to and now I can’t find it. I swear I’m going to whack this thing with a sledge Anyway, this is a reply to a post by dyenths about integration and then replied to by Sierra. In it dyenths is talking about feeling ‘broken’ and how integrating will fix this problem. Ok, so here’s the spoiler… x x x x x x x x x x x x As far as I can tell, there seem to be at least two ‘types’ of being multiple. In the one the person feels as if they are ‘broken’ or fragmented into more than one person and in the other one the person does not have this sensation. For the person who doesn’t feel as if they are divided up into parts integration makes no sense. For the person who _does_ feel that they are divided up it makes sense. For those of us too dissy to know or care _which_ we are *grin* I guess it’s a crap shoot.
*hee* (miming rolling dice is one of my non-verbals that means "I have no idea" and tends to be received with some amusement, since I do it to be funny.) (We appear to have switched to Luc, fwiw. We woke up as Jen, but she got into a flashback and switched out. My apologies if my prose gets weighty. I seem unable to choose standard colloquialisms.) I never felt that I was broken or missing pieces or anything but I always felt that if we healed enough from the ptsd stuff we were going to end up if not truly integrated then pretty dang close
to it. I believe this is the reigning theory inside, as well. The problem, as you allude to later, may well be that Jen is anticipating this. It’s due to her feelings of guilt at having had to switch out when p*in got too intense for her. She seems to feel that if we integrate, she’s fixed whatever she feels guilty about – she’ll have atoned for her "crime". In other words, she wants us to be well so badly she can taste it. Ahh, I feel her nodding inside. It’s terribly difficult for this system to function coherently when Jen is part of the coconscious mix. By "function" I refer specifically to alter-integrity – the notion that the thoughts of one alter are specifically coming from that alter. Gloriana occasionally delights in imitating others’ inside voices, much to her – and the system’s as a whole – amusement. However, she learned this technique from observing Jen, who does it with consummate flair. It’s impossible to detect whether one’s thoughts are one’s own when Jen’s in the mix. *tasteful grin* Ahh…it appears I’ve awakened the beast within – Gloriana, any thoughts you’d care to share with the rest of the class? <nope! Just keep typing, bookworm! :) She *is* adorable, one supposes. Ok, clearly I’ve been subverted. Please do assume that any further words of mine come from Gloriana. She so delights in mimicking my dry accents and causing me to appear more the "fuddy duddy", as it were. [ed. note: we're cracking up over here. G's a trip.] And in fact that is what happened.
You’re Jen’s hero… you and astri, that is. :) For many people here that concept makes no sense. And I would bet that when they find that they have healed from the ptsd stuff or the trauma stuff or the dissy stuff or whatever it is that they need to heal from, they find that they are still just as multiple as before, just functional and happy and all that.
that’s how the *rest* of us wanna be! I *like* being me!!! {and we like her being her!} See? I have my own cheering section! so there *nyeah* *sticks out tongue at Jen* *waggles fingers in ears for good measure* integrate…..and let the rest of us be multiple. *hee* No prob! I’m sure we can handle this one…..;) I’ll set Luc on it. He’s good with thoughts and stuff. I never bother with that… *spirited smile* Ooh, good one, Luc! He’s so wonderfully descriptive – even if he *is* a fuddy duddy! Who the heck’d wanna read *books* when you can play hopscotch??? Sorry. Stupid question. The answer is: Luc and Jenny. See? How the heck could we ever integrate??? *I am not a bookworm!!!!!* Helloooooo??? Anyone listening??? *I* *pauses dramatically* am a Social Butterfly. *Hmph!* *sticks nose in air and preens* [um, G? Can we leave the histrionics alone for now?] No. [sorry. My fault. Shoulda realized. Proceed.] Thank you. *ahem* AS I was saying… hmm…what *was* I saying? Clearly not important. Next! Hey! SO just told me where the original was that I saved. Duh, who would have thought to look _there_
a bookworm. *nods in sympathy* *shakes head sadly at the bookworms* Hmm…there’s some kinda joke there…something with the worms crawling thru a volume of Keats? Or something? I’d have to switch back to Luc to phrase the joke well. It’s something about some poem or other where the poet goes on and on abt when he’s gone, and me visualizing Luc as a literal bookworm, eating the page where the poet talks abt worms eating his shell when he’s gone. [wow - G really *is* phobic abt touch. She can't even say "body".] Hah! Can so!!! body body body body body!!! [great. now try saying "It's my body."] Thought so. Okeys, I’m up to bat. We have no clue who I am, but perhaps I’ll figure it out in time. My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. Were we talking about anything, or was G just raving? *scrolls up* ahh…raving. So, my point is that I think it is all very individual
(ooh, pun, *hee* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – sorry) for each system as to how they are going to end up. And I think that we all need to have an open mind(s) *grin* about this as no one can know just what is going to be the outcome of healing. Dyenths feels as if integration is going to ‘fix’ this brokenness but in fact it might be that after healing what needs to be healed they will still be multiple. Rather than get a mind set as to how the outcome should be I think it would be easier for us all if we could just work on what needs to be worked on and let the outcome happen as it does.
I think my original thought on reading that the first time was something about Jen’s issue that needs to be worked on *is* the multiplicity…but I think when we wrote above about it being cuz she feels so guilty for having had to switch when it hurt so bad (btw, Jen says if you turn the hot water on, and put yer hand under it, eventually it’ll hurt so much that you’ll jerk your hand away, no matter what (assuming the water’s hot enough) – and that’s how much it hurt, the thing she’s freaking about, and she tried and tried and tried to "stay sane" as she puts it, but couldn’t. And she feels desperately like she failed. And she’s sorry.) (hmm…why do I get the feeling I’m probably Jen?) <cuz yer not stupid? (*sigh* I’m going back to bed.) Thanks, Jill! Jen and the rest of the dyenths Rainbow Colors (Jill, who has to stop as there is a meltdown happening in the other room) — For info about this service, see
http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – help message administrator
Response:
My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young.
where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. — astri
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i don’t really know. it was weird. he didn’t even mentioned what *happened* that made me split – just said "something highly traumatic happened". And I don’t know if he were using *my* best age guess (late 3 to early 4 based on us visiting mostly at turkey day, presents day and candy day (*ahem* late november, late december, april) and my b-day’s in March, plus I was wearing a flannel, nightgown w/a heavy blanket – ok, fine, musta been Chr!stmas, 1974, with me aged 45 months *grr*) or if he were basing his guess on something he knows cuz he’s a professional. he was certainly explaining this to me like I didn’t know it. And maybe it wasn’t bad that he did. Using thought-pictures to translate btwn parts inside *does* get a bit confused at times…I suppose it helps to have one person tell me the story occasionally when I’m *clearly* not in a part that’s normally co-conscious. Then of course (this is for Jen) there’s the possibility that I’m so jumbled up inside cuz I’m not actually multiple (riotous laughter ensues) and am just trying to make it seem that way cuz it’s easier to process stuff if I don’t have to be Jen to do it. *wipes eyes, still giggling* (yup, that was a good one…hee…ok, I’ll be serious again). I can’t even discuss me not being multiple without referencing me being multiple in why I’m not "If I don’t have to be Jen to do it" – helloooo? the only way I could *not* be Jen is if there’s someone else for me to *be*! *hee* ahh…still enjoying the joke….. Frank confuses me sometimes. Ok, he often confuses me. I think it’s his job – his mission in life or something… Cuz there’ve been times when I’ve asked him flat-out if he thought I was multiple, and he’s evaded, saying it’s a workable theory for now, regardless of whether it’s true or not…then he goes and tells me flat out that I split b4 age 5, that because of it I’ll always be able to split, that of course blue isn’t jen: we’re not one person, we’re a system. Gratifying as it might be to hear him say that, that’s quite a bit different from "it’s a workable theory for now". As for scientific research into splitting – clean or messy – and age at time of first split, I have no ideas whether any data exist. I do know that he got his numbers messed up at some point – said 3 instead of 4, and I listened intently to figure out which one he’d actually meant at what time. It’s possible that I heard him wrong. Dunno. Would 3 years, 9 months be considered old enough for the splits to be messy? Or young enough that I hadn’t developed a clear-cut sense of self? Does it help to know that the phys abse started b4 the "hightly traumatic event", but seems more a chronic thing that just got really bad later, or that my mthr’s probably multiple so I’ve never had a clear-cut sense of self? What effect *does* a parent being multiple (and not aware of it) have on children? If a child of a multiple splits, does that have any effect on how the kid splits? Is it more likely that I split cuz my m0m’s like this too? Then why didn’t my sister split? Or was she old enough when he got her, too, that she’d "forgotten how" to split? Just ignore me – Jen’s in the mix, I’m confused, and have to go visit my ‘rents for the rest of the day. Plus Jen got into her own personal h*ll today – slid backwards into her own personal flshback. Don’t know why that one’s so specifically hers. Maybe cuz she tried to hack it herself, couldn’t, and everything after that is chaos until the bad thing stopped. I wanna go p*nch a wall… I think I’ll let Jen post instead… Blue, Luc, somebody else, h*ll, I don’t know…, for dyenths
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. — astri
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. — astri
hmmm… i don’t see why there has to be a correlation at all. it seems to me that clean splits would have more to do with the reasons for and methods of splitting, and subsequent internal organization, rather than when the splits began. tv — Life is less like counting the seeds in an apple and more like counting the apples in a seed. – Chris Blake
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[...] Frank confuses me sometimes. Ok, he often confuses me. I think it’s his job – his mission in life or something… Cuz there’ve been times when I’ve asked him flat-out if he thought I was multiple, and he’s evaded, saying it’s a workable theory for now, regardless of whether it’s true or not…then he goes and tells me flat out that I split b4 age 5, that because of it I’ll always be able to split, that of course blue isn’t jen: we’re not one person, we’re a system. Gratifying as it might be to hear him say that, that’s quite a bit different from "it’s a workable theory for now".
oh, saying you’re mp and saying that you dissociate are not exactly the same thing. what he said isn’t necessarily contradictory. but why does the label matter so much, anyway? you are who you are. you are how you are. a label someone else gives you, or doesn’t give you isn’t going to change that. what’s important is the phenomenology, not the semantics. As for scientific research into splitting – clean or messy – and age at time of first split, I have no ideas whether any data exist. I do know that he got his numbers messed up at some point – said 3 instead of 4, and I listened intently to figure out which one he’d actually meant at what time. It’s possible that I heard him wrong. Dunno. Would 3 years, 9 months be considered old enough for the splits to be messy? Or young enough that I hadn’t developed a clear-cut sense of self? Does it help to know that the phys abse started b4 the "hightly traumatic event", but seems more a chronic thing that just got really bad later, or that my mthr’s probably multiple so I’ve never had a clear-cut sense of self?
if you’re asking about typical development, then what you see is that kids don’t actually develop a stable sense of self until about 5 or 6 years old (give or take, depending on normal variations in individual cognitive development). it isn’t an on/off thing, either. the younger the kid, the less clear the sense of self. it kind of starts, in a rudimentary sort of way, during the "terrible twos" when kids discover that they can assert themselves by saying "no!" that’s the beginning of the discovery of me/not me. What effect *does* a parent being multiple (and not aware of it) have on children?
parents are the child’s most powerful model. however, there is also the case that ability to dissociate seems to run in families. there is probably some interaction between the genetically-endowed skill at dissociating and the environmental influence of the parent modelling multiplicity as a way to be. If a child of a multiple splits, does that have any effect on how the kid splits?
possibly. possibly not. what’s probably more powerful is whether or not there is also trauma in the mix. Is it more likely that I split cuz my m0m’s like this too?
genetics is a factor, but not the entire factor. Then why didn’t my sister split? Or was she old enough when he got her, too, that she’d "forgotten how" to split?
different kids react differently to the same thing. why don’t siblings all have the same temperament? Just ignore me – Jen’s in the mix, I’m confused, and have to go visit my ‘rents for the rest of the day. Plus Jen got into her own personal h*ll today – slid backwards into her own personal flshback. Don’t know why that one’s so specifically hers. Maybe cuz she tried to hack it herself, couldn’t, and everything after that is chaos until the bad thing stopped. I wanna go p*nch a wall…
hi, Jen. sorry you have stuff to deal with. it actually gets easier after you do deal, tho. I think I’ll let Jen post instead… Blue, Luc, somebody else, h*ll, I don’t know…, for dyenths
– astri
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i dunno…"cleanly multiple" makes a lot of sense to me. I certainly am *not* cleanly multiple – 3/4s of the time I haven’t a clue who I am, and it’s extremely rare for me to feel exclusively one part. it takes a lot of energy to maintain, too. And I say "to feel" rather than "to be" cuz I’ve always got somebodies tracking what’s going on outside. dunno – makes sense that there are multiples with clearly distinct alters; and multiples who split, but not fully. Perhaps int*gration is a viable concept for those multiples who split, but never completely. i just wanna see allada colers flowin tagedder inside. *pout* *sad smile* dyenths
—– Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2001 12:33 PM
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. Ok, this has *got* to be the newest terminology I’ve heard yet!… ROTFL !!!…. "cleanly multiple". Good one, astri. *g* Sierra (whose added "cleanly multiple" to the ever-growing list of terms and phrases and who recognizes that "the earlier the
split" ideologies are – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – inherently biased as they infer a wholeness, a one-ness prior to, to begin with… circular reasoning) — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.net/emailform.html
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Sierra (whose added "cleanly multiple" to the ever-growing list of terms and phrases and who recognizes that "the earlier the split" ideologies are inherently biased as they infer a wholeness, a one-ness prior to, to begin with… circular reasoning)
then you didn’t really read my whole post carefully, as i was also talking about the fact that for a very young child, there *isn’t* any sense of a single self, so the earlier the dissociation, the less likely there was ever a single self. — astri
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thanks. :) dyenths
Colors) writes: Rather than get a mind set as to how the outcome should be I think it would be easier for us all if we could just work on what needs to be worked on and let the outcome happen as it does. I agree 100%. I also am one of those people who do not feel broken or in pieces or whatever. But I think the answer is always an
individual thing and – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – everyone should do what is best for their systen. Verna
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Colors) writes: Rather than get a mind set as to how the outcome should be I think it would be easier for us all if we could just work on what needs to be worked on and let the outcome happen as it does.
I agree 100%. I also am one of those people who do not feel broken or in pieces or whatever. But I think the answer is always an individual thing and everyone should do what is best for their systen. Verna
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text —— Original Message —– Newsgroups: alt.support.dissociation Sent: Monday, October 22, 2001 11:36 PM Sierra (whose added "cleanly multiple" to the ever-growing list of terms and phrases and who recognizes that "the earlier the split" ideologies are inherently biased as they infer a wholeness, a one-ness prior to, to begin with… circular reasoning) then you didn’t really read my whole post carefully, as I was also talking about the fact that for a very young child, there *isn’t* any sense of a single self, so the earlier the dissociation, the less likely there was ever a single self. astri, I just wanted to say that I had read your post carefully. I included my commentary after my sig to express my own recognitions, that’s all. Sierra
okay, but it didn’t have much of anything to do with what i said, then. — astri
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Dear dyenths – This is waaaaaay late in the game to be replying, and maybe someone else has already said it, because I haven’t read all the replies yet – but – could it be just that maybe it could just be the Jen needs to find a way to be okay w/who y’all are? It seems a kind of obvious thing to think, and maybe a stupid thing to say, but it was where I (the one w/the birth name) went when we started thinking in terms of being in parts. Beautys. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – hey there! thanks fer the reply…more below STUPID computer!! I saved the post to reply to and now I can’t find it. I swear I’m going to whack this thing with a sledge Anyway, this is a reply to a post by dyenths about integration and then replied to by Sierra. In it dyenths is talking about feeling ‘broken’ and how integrating will fix this problem. Ok, so here’s the spoiler… x x x x x x x x x x x x As far as I can tell, there seem to be at least two ‘types’ of being multiple. In the one the person feels as if they are ‘broken’ or fragmented into more than one person and in the other one the person does not have this sensation. For the person who doesn’t feel as if they are divided up into parts integration makes no sense. For the person who _does_ feel that they are divided up it makes sense. For those of us too dissy to know or care _which_ we are *grin* I guess it’s a crap shoot. *hee* (miming rolling dice is one of my non-verbals that means "I have no idea" and tends to be received with some amusement, since I do it to be funny.) (We appear to have switched to Luc, fwiw. We woke up as Jen, but she got into a flashback and switched out. My apologies if my prose gets weighty. I seem unable to choose standard colloquialisms.) I never felt that I was broken or missing pieces or anything but I always felt that if we healed enough from the ptsd stuff we were going to end up if not truly integrated then pretty dang close to it. I believe this is the reigning theory inside, as well. The problem, as you allude to later, may well be that Jen is anticipating this. It’s due to her feelings of guilt at having had to switch out when p*in got too intense for her. She seems to feel that if we integrate, she’s fixed whatever she feels guilty about – she’ll have atoned for her "crime". In other words, she wants us to be well so badly she can taste it. Ahh, I feel her nodding inside. It’s terribly difficult for this system to function coherently when Jen is part of the coconscious mix. By "function" I refer specifically to alter-integrity – the notion that the thoughts of one alter are specifically coming from that alter. Gloriana occasionally delights in imitating others’ inside voices, much to her – and the system’s as a whole – amusement. However, she learned this technique from observing Jen, who does it with consummate flair. It’s impossible to detect whether one’s thoughts are one’s own when Jen’s in the mix. *tasteful grin* Ahh…it appears I’ve awakened the beast within – Gloriana, any thoughts you’d care to share with the rest of the class? <nope! Just keep typing, bookworm! :) She *is* adorable, one supposes. Ok, clearly I’ve been subverted. Please do assume that any further words of mine come from Gloriana. She so delights in mimicking my dry accents and causing me to appear more the "fuddy duddy", as it were. [ed. note: we're cracking up over here. G's a trip.] And in fact that is what happened. You’re Jen’s hero… you and astri, that is. :) For many people here that concept makes no sense. And I would bet that when they find that they have healed from the ptsd stuff or the trauma stuff or the dissy stuff or whatever it is that they need to heal from, they find that they are still just as multiple as before, just functional and happy and all that. that’s how the *rest* of us wanna be! I *like* being me!!! {and we like her being her!} See? I have my own cheering section! so there *nyeah* *sticks out tongue at Jen* *waggles fingers in ears for good measure* integrate…..and let the rest of us be multiple. *hee* No prob! I’m sure we can handle this one…..;) I’ll set Luc on it. He’s good with thoughts and stuff. I never bother with that… *spirited smile* Ooh, good one, Luc! He’s so wonderfully descriptive – even if he *is* a fuddy duddy! Who the heck’d wanna read *books* when you can play hopscotch??? Sorry. Stupid question. The answer is: Luc and Jenny. See? How the heck could we ever integrate??? *I am not a bookworm!!!!!* Helloooooo??? Anyone listening??? *I* *pauses dramatically* am a Social Butterfly. *Hmph!* *sticks nose in air and preens* [um, G? Can we leave the histrionics alone for now?] No. [sorry. My fault. Shoulda realized. Proceed.] Thank you. *ahem* AS I was saying… hmm…what *was* I saying? Clearly not important. Next! Hey! SO just told me where the original was that I saved. Duh, who would have thought to look _there_ a bookworm. *nods in sympathy* *shakes head sadly at the bookworms* Hmm…there’s some kinda joke there…something with the worms crawling thru a volume of Keats? Or something? I’d have to switch back to Luc to phrase the joke well. It’s something about some poem or other where the poet goes on and on abt when he’s gone, and me visualizing Luc as a literal bookworm, eating the page where the poet talks abt worms eating his shell when he’s gone. [wow - G really *is* phobic abt touch. She can't even say "body".] Hah! Can so!!! body body body body body!!! [great. now try saying "It's my body."] Thought so. Okeys, I’m up to bat. We have no clue who I am, but perhaps I’ll figure it out in time. My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. Were we talking about anything, or was G just raving? *scrolls up* ahh…raving. So, my point is that I think it is all very individual (ooh, pun, *hee* sorry) for each system as to how they are going to end up. And I think that we all need to have an open mind(s) *grin* about this as no one can know just what is going to be the outcome of healing. Dyenths feels as if integration is going to ‘fix’ this brokenness but in fact it might be that after healing what needs to be healed they will still be multiple. Rather than get a mind set as to how the outcome should be I think it would be easier for us all if we could just work on what needs to be worked on and let the outcome happen as it does. I think my original thought on reading that the first time was something about Jen’s issue that needs to be worked on *is* the multiplicity…but I think when we wrote above about it being cuz she feels so guilty for having had to switch when it hurt so bad (btw, Jen says if you turn the hot water on, and put yer hand under it, eventually it’ll hurt so much that you’ll jerk your hand away, no matter what (assuming the water’s hot enough) – and that’s how much it hurt, the thing she’s freaking about, and she tried and tried and tried to "stay sane" as she puts it, but couldn’t. And she feels desperately like she failed. And she’s sorry.) (hmm…why do I get the feeling I’m probably Jen?) <cuz yer not stupid? (*sigh* I’m going back to bed.) Thanks, Jill! Jen and the rest of the dyenths Rainbow Colors (Jill, who has to stop as there is a meltdown happening in the other room) — For info about this service, see http://anon.twwells.com/help/ or e-mail: help message administrator
Response:
Hi astri – So late into the conversation on this, maybe everyone’s already forgotten, or maybe I’m being redundant – but – yeah, it has always seemed to me that the earlier, certainly, the more radical. I’m not sure about "cleaner," because I guess I’m not sure what that means or what dyenths’s ther*pist was using it to mean, but I think definitely more, well, maybe undoable – I mean – it becomes so fundamental as a way to be that it just is the way one is. I don’t know what is happening as I get older. I don’t know if emotional pain is creating greater fuzziness, or if there is something going on w/the aging process. (I’ve got senile dementia in my family – but it usually doesn’t show up at 46 – still – it wouldn’t necessarily be evident to most people, what is happening w/me, so maybe things like this were happening to the people in my family and it just wasn’t clear from the outside.) Or maybe it’s the narcs and stuff I take for pain??? I mean, that certainly could be a factor, I am sure. I am rambling. I seem incapable of doing much else. Anyhow – bye – I guess I didn’t add much to this, but I felt like running my mouth off on it anyway – Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. — astri
Response:
Hello again astri – Have to say this, because I like it so much. My son, who was physically born in NY, said when he was 2 and a half that he was born in NM. The reason he said that, we figured, was because that was when he kind of came to consciousness of himself as a self – yeah – the thing about being able to say "no," being able to make choices, etc. A very primitive but powerful beginning of awareness that was so significant for him that it coincided w/his sense of "being born." Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Sierra (whose added "cleanly multiple" to the ever-growing list of terms and phrases and who recognizes that "the earlier the split" ideologies are inherently biased as they infer a wholeness, a one-ness prior to, to begin with… circular reasoning) then you didn’t really read my whole post carefully, as i was also talking about the fact that for a very young child, there *isn’t* any sense of a single self, so the earlier the dissociation, the less likely there was ever a single self. — astri
Response:
that’s really interesting. i remember that happening, quite clearly, when I was 7. My 7th birthday, in fact. Talk about being a late bloomer…..;) dyenths (who knows it’s not quite the same thing)
Hello again astri – Have to say this, because I like it so much. My son, who was physically born in NY, said when he was 2 and a half that he was born in NM. The reason he said that, we figured, was because that was when he kind of came to consciousness of himself as a self – yeah – the thing
about being able to say "no," being able to make choices, etc. A very primitive
but powerful beginning of awareness that was so significant for him that it
coincided w/his sense of "being born." Beauty.
Sierra (whose added "cleanly multiple" to the
ever-growing list of terms and phrases and who recognizes that "the earlier the
split" ideologies are – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – inherently biased as they infer a wholeness, a one-ness prior to, to begin with… circular reasoning) then you didn’t really read my whole post carefully, as i was also talking about the fact that for a very young child, there *isn’t* any sense of a single self, so the earlier the dissociation, the less likely there was ever a single self. — astri
Response:
p/e hey there…don’t know if you’ll see this, but wanted to ramble a bit on it myself.
Hi astri – So late into the conversation on this, maybe everyone’s already forgotten, or maybe I’m being redundant – but – yeah, it has always seemed to me that the earlier, certainly, the more radical. I’m not sure about "cleaner," because I guess I’m not sure what that means or what dyenths’s ther*pist was using it to mean, but I think definitely more, well, maybe undoable – I mean – it becomes so
fundamental as a way to be that it just is the way one is.
"cleaner", as my T meant it, probably has something to do with having more distinct parts. He was addressing the issue that I have great confusion about who I am most of the time, or identifying which part thought what, or making specific switches. When I switch from one part to another, as opposed to just shifting in the coconsciousness, I feel like "me", different from the previous "me" that I was, but still with an awareness that "I" am Jennifer-the-system, inclusive of all the other parts. Blue has the hardest time with that, but even that’s getting much easier. Clear as mud, right? That’s how I feel most of the time – clear as mud. For example, Thomas is a guy, feels like a guy, likes guy things, thinks like a guy, walks like a guy, talks like a guy, etc. But when I’m Thomas I know perfectly well that I’m a woman named Jennifer, even if I don’t like that fact all the time. And I know that sometimes I’m going to feel like a woman, and sometimes like a little kid, and sometimes I’m going to be depressed and morose, and sometimes I’m going to be an intellectual, and….. But those are all part of who "I" am, if that makes any sense (this is Thomas now, btw). I, Thomas, can’t think of myself as a person in my own right, because there are bits of the rest of the consciousness *stuck* to me – clinging to me – not allowing me to forget that I’m those people, too. Blue, on the other hand (waiting for switch…) Yeah, whaddaya want? Lemme read Thomas’ stuff. … What’s this "woman named Jennifer" bs?? Yuk. Yer gonna have a fight on yer hands if you call me a woman. I can pull the information from my head that the body is female, but that doesn’t have "emotional import" as brainiac puts it. I’m Blue. Though I like to tell T, when he asks "Who’s this?" that "My name is Jennifer" and I sneer at him. I guess that’s answer enough. Jennifer is this person who carries me around, I guess…and all these people inside that I have to put up with and get along with somehow. <heh – the question got asked inside "So what are you, blue, if not a woman named Jennifer?" and blue answered "I am just a poor boy, though my story’s seldom told…" ooh, feels like i’m on to something… "In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade, and he carries the reminders of every fist that laid him low or clipped him till he cried out, in his anger and his shame, ‘I am leaving I am leaving’ but the fighter still remains…" Yeah? What of it? So that’s me. I can’t leave. I don’t have my own body. So, yeah, I know the rest of them are inside, but I can’t touch them without working at it a *lot*. Thomas, I think he was trying to say, can’t *not* touch them. And somebody wants us all holding hands all the time or something. Whatever. So, like, I’m the example of a cleaner split, but Thomas and the rest of them are still sorta mushed together, stuck to each other with something like melted mozzerella cheese being all stretchy and goopy and getting all over everything inside. If that makes sense. I’d bring brainiac back out to use better words, but they called me out, now I’m staying out for awhile. Somebody’s gotta get some work done around here today… Somebody inside said with a sigh "ahh, the joys of a democracy…" Oh, Thomas can cut the strands if he needs to – if he has to do his job – but he uses me to do it. Socrates and I hang out on second while Thomas is on first doing his job (protecting us when we’re in public or have to accomplish something, but ppl inside are flipping out). Soc disses, and I snarl at anyone who tries to switch onto first, or tries to send emotions upwards that might mess Thomas up. Alright, I’m outta here. Blue, with Thomas, Jen and others b4, for dyenths – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I don’t know what is happening as I get older. I don’t know if emotional pain is creating greater fuzziness, or if there is something going on w/the aging process. (I’ve got senile dementia in my family – but it usually doesn’t show up at 46 – still – it wouldn’t necessarily be evident to most people, what is happening w/me, so maybe things like this were happening to the people in my family and it just wasn’t clear from the outside.) Or maybe it’s the narcs and stuff I take for pain??? I mean, that certainly could be a factor, I am sure. I am rambling. I seem incapable of doing much else. Anyhow – bye – I guess I didn’t add much to this, but I felt like running my mouth off on it anyway – Beauty. My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. — astri
Response:
Yeah, I see it. Now. I’ve been unable to be online – computer garbles, not important to detail, and might go on for a while, so whatever – but – okay. Here and now: I understand now what you mean, about the separations between parts being less distinct. That’s how it is for me a lot. There are times when it’s very clear – I mean, it used to be that when Eric came, when he was out of control, there was no mistaking him (though before I knew there were lots of us, it just felt like a very bad psychological place for "me" to be in – so even then, things were not at all clear). But mostly, it isn’t clear at all. I can’t say what that means. That’s just how it is for me. Whoever "me" is. (Grin.) Beauty. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – p/e hey there…don’t know if you’ll see this, but wanted to ramble a bit on it myself. Hi astri – So late into the conversation on this, maybe everyone’s already forgotten, or maybe I’m being redundant – but – yeah, it has always seemed to me that the earlier, certainly, the more radical. I’m not sure about "cleaner," because I guess I’m not sure what that means or what dyenths’s ther*pist was using it to mean, but I think definitely more, well, maybe undoable – I mean – it becomes so fundamental as a way to be that it just is the way one is. "cleaner", as my T meant it, probably has something to do with having more distinct parts. He was addressing the issue that I have great confusion about who I am most of the time, or identifying which part thought what, or making specific switches. When I switch from one part to another, as opposed to just shifting in the coconsciousness, I feel like "me", different from the previous "me" that I was, but still with an awareness that "I" am Jennifer-the-system, inclusive of all the other parts. Blue has the hardest time with that, but even that’s getting much easier. Clear as mud, right? That’s how I feel most of the time – clear as mud. For example, Thomas is a guy, feels like a guy, likes guy things, thinks like a guy, walks like a guy, talks like a guy, etc. But when I’m Thomas I know perfectly well that I’m a woman named Jennifer, even if I don’t like that fact all the time. And I know that sometimes I’m going to feel like a woman, and sometimes like a little kid, and sometimes I’m going to be depressed and morose, and sometimes I’m going to be an intellectual, and….. But those are all part of who "I" am, if that makes any sense (this is Thomas now, btw). I, Thomas, can’t think of myself as a person in my own right, because there are bits of the rest of the consciousness *stuck* to me – clinging to me – not allowing me to forget that I’m those people, too. Blue, on the other hand (waiting for switch…) Yeah, whaddaya want? Lemme read Thomas’ stuff. … What’s this "woman named Jennifer" bs?? Yuk. Yer gonna have a fight on yer hands if you call me a woman. I can pull the information from my head that the body is female, but that doesn’t have "emotional import" as brainiac puts it. I’m Blue. Though I like to tell T, when he asks "Who’s this?" that "My name is Jennifer" and I sneer at him. I guess that’s answer enough. Jennifer is this person who carries me around, I guess…and all these people inside that I have to put up with and get along with somehow. <heh – the question got asked inside "So what are you, blue, if not a woman named Jennifer?" and blue answered "I am just a poor boy, though my story’s seldom told…" ooh, feels like i’m on to something… "In the clearing stands a boxer and a fighter by his trade, and he carries the reminders of every fist that laid him low or clipped him till he cried out, in his anger and his shame, ‘I am leaving I am leaving’ but the fighter still remains…" Yeah? What of it? So that’s me. I can’t leave. I don’t have my own body. So, yeah, I know the rest of them are inside, but I can’t touch them without working at it a *lot*. Thomas, I think he was trying to say, can’t *not* touch them. And somebody wants us all holding hands all the time or something. Whatever. So, like, I’m the example of a cleaner split, but Thomas and the rest of them are still sorta mushed together, stuck to each other with something like melted mozzerella cheese being all stretchy and goopy and getting all over everything inside. If that makes sense. I’d bring brainiac back out to use better words, but they called me out, now I’m staying out for awhile. Somebody’s gotta get some work done around here today… Somebody inside said with a sigh "ahh, the joys of a democracy…" Oh, Thomas can cut the strands if he needs to – if he has to do his job – but he uses me to do it. Socrates and I hang out on second while Thomas is on first doing his job (protecting us when we’re in public or have to accomplish something, but ppl inside are flipping out). Soc disses, and I snarl at anyone who tries to switch onto first, or tries to send emotions upwards that might mess Thomas up. Alright, I’m outta here. Blue, with Thomas, Jen and others b4, for dyenths I don’t know what is happening as I get older. I don’t know if emotional pain is creating greater fuzziness, or if there is something going on w/the aging process. (I’ve got senile dementia in my family – but it usually doesn’t show up at 46 – still – it wouldn’t necessarily be evident to most people, what is happening w/me, so maybe things like this were happening to the people in my family and it just wasn’t clear from the outside.) Or maybe it’s the narcs and stuff I take for pain??? I mean, that certainly could be a factor, I am sure. I am rambling. I seem incapable of doing much else. Anyhow – bye – I guess I didn’t add much to this, but I felt like running my mouth off on it anyway – Beauty. My T says one of the reasons my system’s so confused so much of the time abt who’s on first is cuz I don’t have clean splits, cuz I probably started switching so young. where’d he get *that* from? I’ve actually always thought that the earlier the split, the wider the gap, since there was never any time for there to be *one* person, in a sense. always seemed to me that the earlier stuff started, the more cleanly multiple. — astri
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