Question:

"Helena" <hel…@idl.net.au> who is a closet loony wrote in news:1112321253.970040@idlweb: > Yes I got one and signed or so I thought but when I try to get in it > tells I am not subscribed.I have spent so much time trying it is > driving me nuts.I *am doing something wrong. > I can read old posts that seem to have come from this group but appear > in the TD group?? > Helski feeling computer illiterate lately!

I’ll send you an email Helski :-) — Peter Lucas                             Brisbane                                 Australia       "There is no opinion, however absurd, which men will not readily embrace as soon as they can be convinced it is generally adopted" Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

Response:

"Helena" <hel…@idl.net.au> who is a closet loony wrote in news:1112237096.25838@idlweb: > Take care JD > Helski

Likewise JD. Helski…….. did you get the invites? — Peter Lucas                             Brisbane                                 Australia       "There is no opinion, however absurd, which men will not readily embrace as soon as they can be convinced it is generally adopted" Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

Response:

Yes I got one and signed or so I thought but when I try to get in it tells I am not subscribed.I have spent so much time trying it is driving me nuts.I *am doing something wrong. I can read old posts that seem to have come from this group but appear in the TD group?? Helski feeling computer illiterate lately! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Take care JD > > Helski > Likewise JD. > Helski…….. did you get the invites? > — > Peter Lucas > Brisbane > Australia > "There is no opinion, however absurd, which men will not readily embrace as > soon as they can be convinced it is generally adopted" > Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

Response:

Take care JD Helski <boloi…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1112223428.852890.215150@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To All. I wish to thank you all for your kind words of thanks and > wishing me well. Believe me the three people involved are  above > reproach they are kind hearted and care, they can defintely contribute > much more then I, there is no doubt about that in my mind, you will all > gain more insight into the world of PTSD. The fault is mine to burden > and it is causing me sorrow in a severe way afteerall I have known them > for a long period of time and considered them more then friends, > perhaps that is where I became careless, who knows? I am under vow not > to speak of the group and it is better this way since this note brings > closure, I am grateful to all for sharing and supporting, it is as it > should be. I am sure you will all carry on in a helpful way, remember > there are a lot of mem and woman who will be in need of your experience > and empathy, Ya’ll hang in their, I do not plan to isolate myself, what > I can do will be in person and face to face, this way there are no mis- > spoken words that cannot be cleared up on the spot with explanation. > Once again< I wish you all well and good health, thank you for the > stimulation, knowledge and laughs, we have had a good run and walked > many trails together, there is always hope and faith. I will/am going > to build a Teepee, that will provide warmth ,shelter, security and a > place to meditate in serenity with your choosen spirit and guide > through life. be well my fellow walking outpatients:). Stay healthy, be > well, if there is a need or wish to speak with me, I will always leave > my addy available. Live well and be happy, with respect, John De

Response:

Dear John De, I am very sad to hear that you are leaving this group. You are one of the reasons I have stuck around. You always had good advice and uplifting words. I know that this illness can make us sometimes say and do things that we regret, but in life we all make mistakes even those who have no PTSD to blame it on. However, it takes a man of good character and courage to say he is wrong and to look inside themselves to find the truth about themselves and the world around them. People like you are desperately needed on this news group. If you are leaving this ng it is one more reason for me to not to visit anymore. I wish you would reconsider. Happy Easter and Happy Spring, I hope your Spring is filled with sunshine and love. Catz "Helena" <hel…@idl.net.au> wrote in message

news:1111843199.579719@idlweb… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> … >> T.D. I am signing off the NG, recently I managed to offend some very >> close friends, it was not pre-meditated or malevolent, however I must >> have been way off base with my written words and thoughts. This has >> caused me to become unable to communicate with any degree of >> confidence, I stand in fear of causing harm. I wish to thank all of you >> who have been supportive and caring, I guess I am in the end stage of >> ptsd and medical/sugical care. It has been interesting and fun over the >> past 8-9 years, I hope that overall I have managed to contribute and >> help, I know I tried. You all take good care I will miss you all and >> keep you in my daily prayers. Wishing you all health and hapiness. John >> De > Jeez deGaray > What’s happening? > You sound like you are in some turmoil.I hope I haven’t caused you any > problem.I actually have been waiting on a note from you. > I don’t come here much  anymore but I am certain you would be sorely > missed > ,I know, if you bowed out completely. > Can I help? > Helski

Response:

[posted and mailed] Hi John De! > T.D. I am signing off the NG,

Do you mean Nutsville? or the ASTP NG? > I guess I am in the end stage of ptsd and medical/sugical care.

One of the most stress-full events in life is a major move of one’s household.  Whether to a better environ or not, this is still a major stressor. Have you considered that you are just reacting to all this stress that you seem to have volunteered for? > It has been interesting and fun over the > past 8-9 years, I hope that overall I have managed to contribute and > help, I know I tried. You all take good care I will miss you all and > keep you in my daily prayers. Wishing you all health and hapiness.

Same back at you! :) Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Hey John De, Real blues must be bitting your backside at the moment. I cannot EVER remember you hurting people enough to be kill filed. I know there was heated words over – can’t remember what on something political I think. You have given such support and assistance over the years especially when I was so down and when others were too. PTSD makes us reactive but not offensive apart from the flammers and trolls that give Peter a hard time. Nutsville is safe, rather tame actually compared to this place. Have you checked out the gallery with all the photo’s. Peter has some amazing shots and so do the others. Keep yourself out of the ditch John De. I will miss you sensible chatter. I have just come back from New Zealand. I went out on this amazing volcanic island- White Island 50 k’s off the east coast north island. A trip I always wanted to do. Next is a grade 5 white water rafting on the Kaituna in NZ!! Unbelievable landscape and the stink!!! We were issued with hard hats and gas masks!! I will try and post some of these shots on Nutsville soon. Yahoo- I can now unpack my suitcase after being away from home since 29 January. Take care Barb

Response:

"Greg Barb Cook" <cook…@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message news:424a3dfe$1_1@news.iprimus.com.au… > Hey John De, > Real blues must be bitting your backside at the moment. I cannot EVER > remember you hurting people enough to be kill filed. I know there was heated > words over – can’t remember what on something political I think. You have > given such support and assistance over the years especially when I was so > down and when others were too. > PTSD makes us reactive but not offensive apart from the flammers and trolls > that give Peter a hard time. Nutsville is safe, rather tame actually > compared to this place.

Hi Barb, What’s Nutsville? –Patti

Response:

"p fogg" <pf…@triad.rr.com> who is a closet loony wrote in news:mer2e.59$QB6.117454@twister.southeast.rr.com: >> PTSD makes us reactive but not offensive apart from the flammers and > trolls >> that give Peter a hard time. Nutsville is safe, rather tame actually >> compared to this place. > Hi Barb, > What’s Nutsville?

It’s a closed group of ‘oldies’ from this group and various people that they can vouch for. It was set up as a way and a means for people from PTSD to communicate with each other in private without all the scum stalkers and trolls taking anything that is said here and spreading it to various other newsgroups for their pathetic enjoyment. If you’re interested in joining (I did a quick check on your ‘history’ :-) the best bet would be to get in touch with TD via email, and maybe give her a call…… just as a last verification. I think you might be in the same area that she is. You might think it over cautious, but with the amount of stalkers and trolls that we have popping up just about every day, we can’t be too careful!! — Peter Lucas                             Brisbane                                 Australia       "There is no opinion, however absurd, which men will not readily embrace as soon as they can be convinced it is generally adopted" Philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer.

Response:

To All. I wish to thank you all for your kind words of thanks and wishing me well. Believe me the three people involved are  above reproach they are kind hearted and care, they can defintely contribute much more then I, there is no doubt about that in my mind, you will all gain more insight into the world of PTSD. The fault is mine to burden and it is causing me sorrow in a severe way afteerall I have known them for a long period of time and considered them more then friends, perhaps that is where I became careless, who knows? I am under vow not to speak of the group and it is better this way since this note brings closure, I am grateful to all for sharing and supporting, it is as it should be. I am sure you will all carry on in a helpful way, remember there are a lot of mem and woman who will be in need of your experience and empathy, Ya’ll hang in their, I do not plan to isolate myself, what I can do will be in person and face to face, this way there are no mis- spoken words that cannot be cleared up on the spot with explanation. Once again< I wish you all well and good health, thank you for the stimulation, knowledge and laughs, we have had a good run and walked many trails together, there is always hope and faith. I will/am going to build a Teepee, that will provide warmth ,shelter, security and a place to meditate in serenity with your choosen spirit and guide through life. be well my fellow walking outpatients:). Stay healthy, be well, if there is a need or wish to speak with me, I will always leave my addy available. Live well and be happy, with respect, John De

Response:

Take care. May you find peace in your tepee. Cheers Barb <boloi…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1112223429.128888.230430@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To All. I wish to thank you all for your kind words of thanks and > wishing me well. Believe me the three people involved are  above > reproach they are kind hearted and care, they can defintely contribute > much more then I, there is no doubt about that in my mind, you will all > gain more insight into the world of PTSD. The fault is mine to burden > and it is causing me sorrow in a severe way afteerall I have known them > for a long period of time and considered them more then friends, > perhaps that is where I became careless, who knows? I am under vow not > to speak of the group and it is better this way since this note brings > closure, I am grateful to all for sharing and supporting, it is as it > should be. I am sure you will all carry on in a helpful way, remember > there are a lot of mem and woman who will be in need of your experience > and empathy, Ya’ll hang in their, I do not plan to isolate myself, what > I can do will be in person and face to face, this way there are no mis- > spoken words that cannot be cleared up on the spot with explanation. > Once again< I wish you all well and good health, thank you for the > stimulation, knowledge and laughs, we have had a good run and walked > many trails together, there is always hope and faith. I will/am going > to build a Teepee, that will provide warmth ,shelter, security and a > place to meditate in serenity with your choosen spirit and guide > through life. be well my fellow walking outpatients:). Stay healthy, be > well, if there is a need or wish to speak with me, I will always leave > my addy available. Live well and be happy, with respect, John De

Response:

I wish you’d come back to nutville John De.  We can speak openly there, and not worry about ‘offending’ anyone.  As ‘if offense is taken, it can be discussed, talked out, and resolved.’  WE ALL KNOW EACH OTHER THERE, AND KNOW SOMETIMES THINGS GET SAID THAT AREN’T *MEANT TO* OFFEND.  But because we are all friends, deep down inside, we know the other person really likes/loves us.  We understand that sometimes *because of* PTSD, things get said or taken wrongly, etc. Did you get my email news on the twins John De?  Write to me in email. love, td <boloi…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1111747020.704835.222510@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> T.D. I am signing off the NG, recently I managed to offend some very > close friends, it was not pre-meditated or malevolent, however I must > have been way off base with my written words and thoughts. This has > caused me to become unable to communicate with any degree of > confidence, I stand in fear of causing harm. I wish to thank all of you > who have been supportive and caring, I guess I am in the end stage of > ptsd and medical/sugical care. It has been interesting and fun over the > past 8-9 years, I hope that overall I have managed to contribute and > help, I know I tried. You all take good care I will miss you all and > keep you in my daily prayers. Wishing you all health and hapiness. John > De

Response:

"tiny dancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:ss_0e.57350$6g7.47483@bignews1.bellsouth.net… > I wish you’d come back to nutville

What’s nutville?

Response:

John De, Looks to me that there are a few people here who would miss you trmendously if you left.  3-3=0 so stay and with us….you’d be much missed if you left.  To wait and wait…and then to wait even more….makes one so tired.  But, yes, hope is still there….not always easy nor fun to find, but it’s there. peace in healing, Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Donna, I will keep you  in my special wish book and as always in my > prayers. It was a three to one concensus so I know the fault is with > me, they are all good people and I have no doubt that their judgement > is fair. The worrisome truth is that I cannot remember how it all came > about and I deleted all previous notes, in part out of anger, and in > part out of a lack of courage to confront the truth on my own. since no > one would respond to my notes I concluded that it was serious enough to > warrant my being killfiled by three very good people. I guess I am > getting organic and that is reason enough to stop writing and trying to > express opinion and /or advice, my apologies have been offered. Live > well and stay healthy Donna, the sum total of man’s knowledge can be > summed up in two words, wait and hope, Edmond Dantes, The Count of > Monte Crisco, be well, John De Garay

Response:

… > T.D. I am signing off the NG, recently I managed to offend some very > close friends, it was not pre-meditated or malevolent, however I must > have been way off base with my written words and thoughts. This has > caused me to become unable to communicate with any degree of > confidence, I stand in fear of causing harm. I wish to thank all of you > who have been supportive and caring, I guess I am in the end stage of > ptsd and medical/sugical care. It has been interesting and fun over the > past 8-9 years, I hope that overall I have managed to contribute and > help, I know I tried. You all take good care I will miss you all and > keep you in my daily prayers. Wishing you all health and hapiness. John > De

Jeez deGaray What’s happening? You sound like you are in some turmoil.I hope I haven’t caused you any problem.I actually have been waiting on a note from you. I don’t come here much  anymore but I am certain you would be sorely missed ,I know, if you bowed out completely. Can I help? Helski

Response:

<boloi…@aol.com> wrote in message

news:1111769245.104839.164100@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com… > Donna, I will keep you  in my special wish book and as always in my > prayers. It was a three to one concensus so I know the fault is with > me, they are all good people and I have no doubt that their judgement > is fair. The worrisome truth is that I cannot remember how it all came > about and I deleted all previous notes, in part out of anger, and in > part out of a lack of courage to confront the truth on my own. since no > one would respond to my notes I concluded that it was serious enough to > warrant my being killfiled by three very good people. I guess I am > getting organic and that is reason enough to stop writing and trying to > express opinion and /or advice, my apologies have been offered. Live > well and stay healthy Donna, the sum total of man’s knowledge can be > summed up in two words, wait and hope, Edmond Dantes, The Count of > Monte Crisco, be well, John De Garay

Don’t go.  It’s too quiet in here already.

Response:

John De, I don’t know what happened to whomever that was offended, but please know that I’m just getting to know you, that you never offended me, that I so appreciate all that you have contributed her on this ng.  I do know that fear of using the wrong words….but it’s not always the messenger who is wrong….sometimes it’s the one on the receiving side who just isn’t hearing in the right way……or even at times both sides. All I know is that this ng is losing someone special if you were to sign off….it would be a great loss. Good Friday to you and your loved ones.  May Easter bring you many wonderful beginnings. Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> T.D. I am signing off the NG, recently I managed to offend some very > close friends, it was not pre-meditated or malevolent, however I must > have been way off base with my written words and thoughts. This has > caused me to become unable to communicate with any degree of > confidence, I stand in fear of causing harm. I wish to thank all of you > who have been supportive and caring, I guess I am in the end stage of > ptsd and medical/sugical care. It has been interesting and fun over the > past 8-9 years, I hope that overall I have managed to contribute and > help, I know I tried. You all take good care I will miss you all and > keep you in my daily prayers. Wishing you all health and hapiness. John > De

Response:

"B.A. Doe" <blithera…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:MPG.1c8dd0395c319b1198968f@news.x-privat.org… > I finally made it back across the ocean, and the plane didn’t fall out of > the sky!!! > I’ll check in at "nutsville", but I missed Karaoke Friday :( >      Kat-dba B.A.Doe, with  *lots* of catching up to do…. > — >  ~ҿ

Question:

Here they are, at one time or another I’ve used every one of these distortions to rationalize my behavior or action. Knowledge is power, however, so knowing these exist in my problem solving arsenal greatly help me make sense of the seemingly nonsensical, enjoy. 1.ALL-OR-NOTHING THINKING: You see things in black and white categories. If your performance falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. 2.OVERGENERALIZATION: You see a single negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat. 3.MENTAL FILTER: You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so that your vision of all reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink that discolors the entire beaker of water. 4.DISQUALIFYING THE POSITIVE: You reject positive experiences by insisting they "don’t count" for some reason or another. In this way you can maintain a negative belief that is contradicted by your everyday experiences. 5.JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: You make a negative interpretation even though there are no definite facts that convincingly support your conclusion. Mind Reading: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting negatively to you, and you don’t bother to check this out. The Fortune Teller Error: You anticipate that things will turn out badly, and you feel convinced that your prediction is an already established fact. 6.MAGNIFICATION (CATASTROPHIZING) OR MINIMIZATION: You exaggerate the importance of things (such as your goof-up or someone else’s achievement) or you inappropriately shrink things until they appear tiny (your own desirable qualities or the other fellow’s imperfections). This is also called the "binocular trick." 7.EMOTIONAL REASONING: You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way things really are: "I feel it, therefore it must be true." 8.SHOULD STATEMENTS: You try to motivate yourself with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if you had to be whipped and punished before you could be expected to do anything. "Musts" and "oughts" are also offenders. The emotional consequence is guilt. When you direct should statements toward others, you feel anger, frustration, and resentment. 9.LABELING AND MISLABELING: This is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Instead of describing your error, you attach a negative label to yourself: "I’m a loser." When someone else’s behavior rubs you the wrong way, you attach a negative label to him: "He’s a goddam louse." Mislabeling involves describing an event with language that is highly colored and emotionally loaded. 10.PERSONALIZATION: You see yourself as the cause of some negative external event which in fact you were not primarily responsible for. Dave

Response:

Hi Dave! > Here they are, at one time or another I’ve used every one of these > distortions to rationalize my behavior or action. Knowledge is power, > however, so knowing these exist in my problem solving arsenal greatly > help me make sense of the seemingly nonsensical, enjoy.

Unfortunately, it never occured to me that these were distortions, until I was in therapy for an awfully long time. That being said … all of these are rather standard in my stinking thinking.  I am unable to discern that one is more extensive than another.   The only progress I have made against these POVs is to remind myself that I need to live in a world that is based upon love, not fear. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Hi, Dave, and I’m pretty much with Nancy….kinda been doing it all at one time or another.  Biggest one for me is #4….discounting the positive that I receive from people.  It’s strange, but I hear what they say to me and it does make me feel "better" but then at times it just all gets lost somewhere.  Accent the positive….so easy to say at times. Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Dave! >> Here they are, at one time or another I’ve used every one of these >> distortions to rationalize my behavior or action. Knowledge is power, >> however, so knowing these exist in my problem solving arsenal greatly >> help me make sense of the seemingly nonsensical, enjoy. > Unfortunately, it never occured to me that these were distortions, until > I was in therapy for an awfully long time. > That being said … all of these are rather standard in my stinking > thinking.  I am unable to discern that one is more extensive than > another. > The only progress I have made against these POVs is to remind myself that > I need to live in a world that is based upon love, not fear. > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > Nancy

Response:

Hi Dave! btw, where did you get this list? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here they are, at one time or another I’ve used every one of these > distortions to rationalize my behavior or action. Knowledge is power, > however, so knowing these exist in my problem solving arsenal greatly > help me make sense of the seemingly nonsensical, enjoy. > 1.ALL-OR-NOTHING THINKING: > You see things in black and white categories. If your performance > falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. > 2.OVERGENERALIZATION: > You see a single negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat. > 3.MENTAL FILTER: > You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so > that your vision of all reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink > that discolors the entire beaker of water. > 4.DISQUALIFYING THE POSITIVE: > You reject positive experiences by insisting they "don’t count" for > some reason or another. In this way you can maintain a negative belief > that is contradicted by your everyday experiences. > 5.JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: > You make a negative interpretation even though there are no definite > facts that convincingly support your conclusion. > Mind Reading: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting > negatively to you, and you don’t bother to check this out. > The Fortune Teller Error: You anticipate that things will turn out > badly, and you feel convinced that your prediction is an already > established fact. > 6.MAGNIFICATION (CATASTROPHIZING) OR MINIMIZATION: > You exaggerate the importance of things (such as your goof-up or > someone else’s achievement) or you inappropriately shrink things until > they appear tiny (your own desirable qualities or the other fellow’s > imperfections). This is also called the "binocular trick." > 7.EMOTIONAL REASONING: > You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way > things really are: "I feel it, therefore it must be true." > 8.SHOULD STATEMENTS: > You try to motivate yourself with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if you > had to be whipped and punished before you could be expected to do > anything. "Musts" and "oughts" are also offenders. The emotional > consequence is guilt. When you direct should statements toward others, > you feel anger, frustration, and resentment. > 9.LABELING AND MISLABELING: > This is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Instead of describing > your error, you attach a negative label to yourself: "I’m a loser." > When someone else’s behavior rubs you the wrong way, you attach a > negative label to him: "He’s a goddam louse." Mislabeling involves > describing an event with language that is highly colored and > emotionally loaded. > 10.PERSONALIZATION: > You see yourself as the cause of some negative external event which in > fact you were not primarily responsible for.

Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

"Nancy" <kipc…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:_VPUd.24509$7z6.16394@lakeread04… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Dave! > btw, where did you get this list? >> Here they are, at one time or another I’ve used every one of these >> distortions to rationalize my behavior or action. Knowledge is power, >> however, so knowing these exist in my problem solving arsenal greatly >> help me make sense of the seemingly nonsensical, enjoy. >> 1.ALL-OR-NOTHING THINKING: >> You see things in black and white categories. If your performance >> falls short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. >> 2.OVERGENERALIZATION: >> You see a single negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat. >> 3.MENTAL FILTER: >> You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so >> that your vision of all reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink >> that discolors the entire beaker of water. >> 4.DISQUALIFYING THE POSITIVE: >> You reject positive experiences by insisting they "don’t count" for >> some reason or another. In this way you can maintain a negative belief >> that is contradicted by your everyday experiences. >> 5.JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: >> You make a negative interpretation even though there are no definite >> facts that convincingly support your conclusion. >> Mind Reading: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting >> negatively to you, and you don’t bother to check this out. >> The Fortune Teller Error: You anticipate that things will turn out >> badly, and you feel convinced that your prediction is an already >> established fact. >> 6.MAGNIFICATION (CATASTROPHIZING) OR MINIMIZATION: >> You exaggerate the importance of things (such as your goof-up or >> someone else’s achievement) or you inappropriately shrink things until >> they appear tiny (your own desirable qualities or the other fellow’s >> imperfections). This is also called the "binocular trick." >> 7.EMOTIONAL REASONING: >> You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way >> things really are: "I feel it, therefore it must be true." >> 8.SHOULD STATEMENTS: >> You try to motivate yourself with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if you >> had to be whipped and punished before you could be expected to do >> anything. "Musts" and "oughts" are also offenders. The emotional >> consequence is guilt. When you direct should statements toward others, >> you feel anger, frustration, and resentment. >> 9.LABELING AND MISLABELING: >> This is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Instead of describing >> your error, you attach a negative label to yourself: "I’m a loser." >> When someone else’s behavior rubs you the wrong way, you attach a >> negative label to him: "He’s a goddam louse." Mislabeling involves >> describing an event with language that is highly colored and >> emotionally loaded. >> 10.PERSONALIZATION: >> You see yourself as the cause of some negative external event which in >> fact you were not primarily responsible for. > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > Nancy

Thankyou, I have not seen this list before. pugs

Response:

Hi Nancy! You wrote: >btw, where did you get this list?

I Googled ‘cognitive distortions’ and ‘list’. I think this was found about three or four sites down the page that came up, didn’t save the url, but it’s the same list as the one they taught us at Menlo. Dave

Response:

"Dave aka Rex" <Dave_aka_…@webtv.net> wrote in message news:21929-42240451-16@storefull-3156.bay.webtv.net… > Hi Nancy! > You wrote: >>btw, where did you get this list? > I Googled ‘cognitive distortions’ and ‘list’. I think this was found > about three or four sites down the page that came up, didn’t save the > url, but it’s the same list as the one they taught us at Menlo. > Dave

Thanks Dave. pugs

Response:

Hi Dave! > I Googled ‘cognitive distortions’ and ‘list’. I think this was found > about three or four sites down the page that came up, didn’t save the > url, but it’s the same list as the one they taught us at Menlo.

I wondered about that.  I think that my therapist spent the better part of 5 years trying to get me to internalize the items on that list.  I wish that I could get them internalized today. :/ I think that this is the most difficult part for me: figuring out when in the throes of a problem which one of the items on that list applies to me ‘in the moment’.  Heck, I still have troubles figuring out what is going on inside my emotional brain on a daily basis; lots of difficulty figuring out if I am in (or not in) trouble today. Any ideas? Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Hi Nancy! You wrote: >I think that this is the most difficult part for me: >figuring out when in the throes of a problem >which one of the items on that list applies to me >’in the moment’. Heck, I still have troubles >figuring out what is going on inside my >emotional brain on a daily basis; lots of difficulty >figuring out if I am in (or not in) trouble today.

At Menlo they said it’d take us a couple of years of practice to see results from using this list of cognitive distortions before rationalizing actions, and they were right. What worked for me was mentally ticking off each item on the list when ever I was at odds with a situation, then trying to understand the problem anew from whatever corresponded with the list. Four years ago, I almost always made a note to review the list after the fact, but now I’m finding that this list pops into my head before I take action thus saving me a lot of time and trouble. Today, for instance, I had an opportunity to use this list while dealing with a bank about some money to be transferred into my account. It was frustrating because one of the banks was foreign and used a different method to transfer funds than my bank. It got frustrating because the info my bank provided didn’t fit into the form the other bank supplied. Ugh. I felt like just saying ’screw it’, but I knew a response like that would be ‘all or nothing’, so instead, I gave each bank my account number and suggested they work it out between themselves then send me the completed form for signature. While working towards this solution, I noted that ‘mind reading’, another cognitive distortion, was peeking out from beneath all the flapdoodle, as well as me ‘jumping to a conclusion’ about the outcome. Luckily, I remained pretty calm and felt good about coming up with a calm way to resolve the issue. Now, all that’s left is waiting for action from the respective banks. It’s a small victory, however, I can’t even begin to tell you how often in the past I’ve walked away from problems that were just as seemingly snafu’d. What a relief not to worry about things outside of my control, ya know? There’s an axiom in AA which says something to the effect that when ever there’s a problem the problem is with me…that nugget o’ truth seems to apply for my PTSD when trying to figure out what to do these days, too. Looking back, I notice there were lots of AA philosophy taught to us at Menlo Park, guess successful behavior modification models never go out of style. One day at a time is a good way for me to remember to use this list, so hopefully next time there’s a problem I’ll be able to see it and act after thinking beforehand, rather than react then rue my decision. Dave

Response:

Hi Dave! > At Menlo they said it’d take us a couple of years of practice to see > results from using this list of cognitive distortions before > rationalizing actions, and they were right. What worked for me was > mentally ticking off each item on the list when ever I was at odds with > a situation, then trying to understand the problem anew from whatever > corresponded with the list. > Four years ago, I almost always made a note to review the list after

the fact, but now I’m finding that this list pops into my head before I take action thus saving me a lot of time and trouble. Geeze, now I see why there are different programs for men and women. :) Congratulations on your using the list while getting bankers to agree.   That type of problem never bothered me, tho. Stuff that bothers me is mostly involved with physical stuff.  Like today.  During my massage (I am in my third year of weekly doing this), for the first time I felt the massotherapist’s fingers on her left hand on my flesh.  Now, understand, I still have not felt her right hand fingers. ??  And, this ‘feeling’ came out of the blue. When she was finished, I double-checked and the massotherapist is left- handed. We were talking about this, and she started talking about how she doesn’t always actually feel the body of the people upon whom she is working.   However, I don’t believe that she has all the troubles I have with ‘overload’ of physical information.  How could she be a massotherapist if her overload range was a low as mine? Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Hi Nancy! You wrote: >Geeze, now I see why there are different >programs for men and women. :)

You know, the program changes from time to time. When I attended they were advocating meds, behavior mod exercises, as well as group discussions. Additionally, there were activities to get us out and about more, in fact, one of the suggestions was to try and have some fun every day. I took up golf, what can I tell ya…I may still only feel comfortable playin’ with another ptsd’d vet buddy and m’girlfriend so far, but I do get out and have fun more than before. I’m enjoying life more, probably because of getting on a schedule with my medication and implementing the suggestions make in that Menlo Park program. Btw, they have a booster program for people who’ve already gone through once, it’s two weeks long I believe and the people I’ve talked to said it was worth the time. >Congratulations on your using the list while >getting bankers to agree. That type of problem >never bothered me, tho.

Hey, congratulations you own self for finally feeling that massage today, practice makes progress. Dave

Response:

although they’ve all applied to me at one time or another–my two biggest ones are the "all or nothing thinking" and the "mind-reading" bit.  i see things very black/white, i have a really hard time seeing the grey areas.  i do the "mind-reading" bit a lot too, i think in an effort to push people away from myself.  unconsciously of course.  but it’s very effective for doing just that.  i used to have this one recurring dream, for years, that i was in a glass cage.  i couldn’t get out, i couldn’t break the walls.  i could see everyone else living their lives, loving people, having friends, enjoying their lives.  and i was stuck in this glass cage, my soul dying slowly, little by little.  i knew i had to learn to trust people eventually, in order to find some semblance of peace.  but trusting people, wow, that’s a tough one.  when all you’ve known is betrayal, abuse, hatred, lies?  it sure doesn’t come easily. thanks for posting this dave. kat "Dave aka Rex" <Dave_aka_…@webtv.net> wrote in message news:2474-42224BA8-89@storefull-3157.bay.webtv.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here they are, at one time or another I’ve used every one of these > distortions to rationalize my behavior or action. Knowledge is power, > however, so knowing these exist in my problem solving arsenal greatly > help me make sense of the seemingly nonsensical, enjoy. > 1.ALL-OR-NOTHING THINKING: > You see things in black and white categories. If your performance falls > short of perfect, you see yourself as a total failure. > 2.OVERGENERALIZATION: > You see a single negative event as a never-ending pattern of defeat. > 3.MENTAL FILTER: > You pick out a single negative detail and dwell on it exclusively so > that your vision of all reality becomes darkened, like the drop of ink > that discolors the entire beaker of water. > 4.DISQUALIFYING THE POSITIVE: > You reject positive experiences by insisting they "don’t count" for some > reason or another. In this way you can maintain a negative belief that > is contradicted by your everyday experiences. > 5.JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS: > You make a negative interpretation even though there are no definite > facts that convincingly support your conclusion. > Mind Reading: You arbitrarily conclude that someone is reacting > negatively to you, and you don’t bother to check this out. > The Fortune Teller Error: You anticipate that things will turn out > badly, and you feel convinced that your prediction is an already > established fact. > 6.MAGNIFICATION (CATASTROPHIZING) OR MINIMIZATION: > You exaggerate the importance of things (such as your goof-up or someone > else’s achievement) or you inappropriately shrink things until they > appear tiny (your own desirable qualities or the other fellow’s > imperfections). This is also called the "binocular trick." > 7.EMOTIONAL REASONING: > You assume that your negative emotions necessarily reflect the way > things really are: "I feel it, therefore it must be true." > 8.SHOULD STATEMENTS: > You try to motivate yourself with shoulds and shouldn’ts, as if you had > to be whipped and punished before you could be expected to do anything. > "Musts" and "oughts" are also offenders. The emotional consequence is > guilt. When you direct should statements toward others, you feel anger, > frustration, and resentment. > 9.LABELING AND MISLABELING: > This is an extreme form of overgeneralization. Instead of describing > your error, you attach a negative label to yourself: "I’m a loser." When > someone else’s behavior rubs you the wrong way, you attach a negative > label to him: "He’s a goddam louse." Mislabeling involves describing an > event with language that is highly colored and emotionally loaded. > 10.PERSONALIZATION: > You see yourself as the cause of some negative external event which in > fact you were not primarily responsible for. > Dave

Response:

Question:

A woman I know (not an ex-girlfriend) told me that, when she was younger, someone wrote her a song. I asked her why had she not married that man, and she said that writing a song means nothing; what matters in a relationship is sacrifice. My mental response: Then you’ve gotten precisely what you deserved in an abusive marriage that followed. Sacrifice? What kind of vanity – what kind of sense of entitlement – what kind of utter lack of concern for the man you claim to love – would demand such a hideous thing? What kind of cruelty, ignorance and destructiveness would want someone to sacrifice himself for you? This is a recipe for misery, not for love and certainly not for happiness. As people sacrifice themselves to each other, their anger at each other grows; their resentment of each other grows; and soon enough it turns into mutual hatred of one another and, from that, abuse by one or by both parties. Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits. Consideration, yes; caring, yes; compassion, yes; charitability, yes; sensitivity, yes; sacrifice, no. Loving relationships are life-affirming rather than death-seeking. Loving relationships affirm and validate each other’s selves rather than demanding their destruction. Loving relationships help each other be happy rather than dragging each other into mutual self-annihilation. Loving relationships help each other to be the best of who they are rather than seek to demolish each other’s selves as though they were each other’s worst enemies – the enemies which, of course, as a result of such attitudes they become. The idea that relationships are about sacrifice lead the partners to see each other’s self as their enemy – as something that needs to be sacrificed in order that the relationship can exist. Is that a recipe for happiness? Is that a recipe for a life worth living? Or is that a recipe for mutual hatred – the hatred that is rightly directed against someone who seeks to destroy one’s self as the price of being with them? It is attitudes like this that are responsible for misery in relationships. I repeat: Nobody who loves you will demand that you surrender your self. Love is affirming rather than negating, and to claim sacrifice as the price of love is against everything that is loving. After the people who have such attitudes come to their logical consummation – the morass of resentment and mutual hatred a few years or even months down the road – they blame it on love, or on romance, or on youth, or on beauty, when the only thing to blame is their beliefs and actions they take in pursuance of their beliefs. The people who demand self-sacrifice as the price of love are people who see the other person’s self as their enemy and treat them as their worst enemy – and there is nothing – nothing – less loving and charitable than such an outcome; the outcome that is the logical consummation of such beliefs. So to those who believe that love is about sacrifice, I say the following: You are the reason for most misery in relationships. You cannot love a person and see their self as your enemy – as something that needs to be sacrificed – at the same time. And true love is love that affirms each other’s self rather than seeking to destroy it, or that seeks sacrifice, or that sees obedience as price of love. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:38:42 -0800, ilya_shambat2004 wrote: > A woman I know (not an ex-girlfriend) told me that, when she was > younger, someone wrote her a song. I asked her why had she not married > that man, and she said that writing a song means nothing; what matters > in a relationship is sacrifice. > My mental response: Then you’ve gotten precisely what you deserved in > an abusive marriage that followed. > Sacrifice? What kind of vanity – what kind of sense of entitlement – > what kind of utter lack of concern for the man you claim to love – > would demand such a hideous thing? What kind of cruelty, ignorance and > destructiveness would want someone to sacrifice himself for you? This > is a recipe for misery, not for love and certainly not for happiness. > As people sacrifice themselves to each other, their anger at each > other grows; their resentment of each other grows; and soon enough it > turns into mutual hatred of one another and, from that, abuse by one or > by both parties. > Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving > relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits. Consideration, yes; > caring, yes; compassion, yes; charitability, yes; sensitivity, yes; > sacrifice, no. Loving relationships are life-affirming rather than > death-seeking. Loving relationships affirm and validate each other’s > selves rather than demanding their destruction. Loving relationships > help each other be happy rather than dragging each other into mutual > self-annihilation. Loving relationships help each other to be the best > of who they are rather than seek to demolish each other’s selves as > though they were each other’s worst enemies – the enemies which, of > course, as a result of such attitudes they become. > The idea that relationships are about sacrifice lead the partners to > see each other’s self as their enemy – as something that needs to be > sacrificed in order that the relationship can exist. Is that a recipe > for happiness? Is that a recipe for a life worth living? Or is that a > recipe for mutual hatred – the hatred that is rightly directed against > someone who seeks to destroy one’s self as the price of being with > them? > It is attitudes like this that are responsible for misery in > relationships. I repeat: Nobody who loves you will demand that you > surrender your self. Love is affirming rather than negating, and to > claim sacrifice as the price of love is against everything that is > loving. > After the people who have such attitudes come to their logical > consummation – the morass of resentment and mutual hatred a few years > or even months down the road – they blame it on love, or on romance, or > on youth, or on beauty, when the only thing to blame is their beliefs > and actions they take in pursuance of their beliefs. The people who > demand self-sacrifice as the price of love are people who see the other > person’s self as their enemy and treat them as their worst enemy – and > there is nothing – nothing – less loving and charitable than such an > outcome; the outcome that is the logical consummation of such beliefs. > So to those who believe that love is about sacrifice, I say the > following: You are the reason for most misery in relationships. You > cannot love a person and see their self as your enemy – as something > that needs to be sacrificed – at the same time. And true love is love > that affirms each other’s self rather than seeking to destroy it, or > that seeks sacrifice, or that sees obedience as price of love. > Ilya Shambat.

Nice post. Insightful.

Response:

artificiallife <phar…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:pan.2005.02.14.06.05.18.273911@yahoo.com: >> Ilya Shambat. > Nice post. Insightful.

For god’s sake, don’t encourage him. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!"  Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com

Response:

in article 1108168722.006455.126…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com at ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote on 2/11/05 4:38 PM: > what matters > in a relationship is sacrifice.

well if you are a victim … with ptsd issues … try to get off of expectation and judgement ilya … put love inside where you have that being made up … and come to love the rattlesnake the way the Great Everywhere Spirit loves the rattlesnake … same for how the Great Spirit loves you, loves your childhood, and loves your parents … and loves your girlfriend who thinks sacrifice is all about relationship … I of course disagee … as I see having fun, making love, and putting out a comfortable, happy, exciting plans to live in … is what a relationship does on the outside … on the inside … the adults do the work of putting love inside where all the fear is … the contempt, the judgement, the expectations, the criticism, the anger,  … all of it and that is from fear … and carry love around to mix with their intention in what ever they create … instead of having hate, fear, judgement and all that negative stuff inside to carry around and thus mix with the same intention in what ever they create … so they are doomed to manifest in the future .. where they could just as well manifest the love … GIGO at its best … all hail God the Father who makes babies with His children … sumbuddie who cares :)

Response:

<ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1108168722.006455.126700@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving > relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits.

who gets to tell you which of your attitudes are evil and which of your habits are bad?

Response:

ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote <snips poetic-philosophical rant> A relationship only makes sense if it improves the life (sexually, socially, emotionally and maybe economically) of both partners. If it entails too much sacrifices for both or one of the partners, they’d better stay alone.

Response:

Alan, I tend to agree with your fearless approach to love. I know, for me, that love IS a sacrifice. Everything I do out of love for others causes my body serious pain and stress, but for those who CAN receive my small gestures if love, all of the pain is worth it.  Many will only accept a pseudo-love that is wrapped in thousand dollar bills. That is the only "love" they want. They never get enough because it is received by a sleeping heart. Even if the giver does care about that person’s well being outside of his own issues, the materialistic receiver in Truth rejects the intended Love. Real love gladly sacrifices, and is merciful on self and others. Laying everything on this world’s altar is a mistake. But I think that ilya meant the spirit of the particular instance she referred to, and not the broader spectrum of love. And maybe I’m wrong about that. In my own ongoing healing I’ve experienced that even my experience of hell is sacred, because it was my experience. And in my healing (ongoing) I’ve come out of denial that I do have a dark side. Most people are denying their darkness by blaming, punishing, killing others, and they really believe that doing so is justified and somehow justifies them. To be in denial about one’s darkside is to be in bondage to it. Not only that, we also insist that everyone else be in bondage to it too. I’m sure there is a great adventure for me ahead, discovering other things I’m in denial about. It goes on and on forever. Alan B. Mac Farlane" <al…@sonic.net> wrote in message news:BE361DE8.409B%alanb@sonic.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> in article 1108168722.006455.126…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com at ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote on 2/11/05 > 4:38 PM: >> what matters >> in a relationship is sacrifice. > well if you are a victim … with ptsd issues … > try to get off of expectation and judgement ilya … > put love inside where you have that being made up … > and come to love the rattlesnake the way the Great Everywhere Spirit loves > the rattlesnake … > same for how the Great Spirit loves you, loves your childhood, and loves > your parents … and loves your girlfriend who thinks sacrifice is all > about > relationship … > I of course disagee … as I see having fun, making love, and putting out > a > comfortable, happy, exciting plans to live in … is what a relationship > does on the outside … > on the inside … the adults do the work of putting love inside where all > the fear is … the contempt, the judgement, the expectations, the > criticism, the anger,  … all of it and that is from fear … > and carry love around to mix with their intention in what ever they create > … > instead of having hate, fear, judgement and all that negative stuff inside > to carry around and thus mix with the same intention in what ever they > create … > so they are doomed to manifest in the future .. > where they could just as well manifest the love … > GIGO at its best … > all hail God the Father who makes babies with His children … > sumbuddie who cares > :)

Response:

wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something similar last night with my friends

Response:

D’oh! Occasionally I misread something in funny ways, and have to go back and check. Imagine my surprise when I first read the title of this section, perceiving "enemy" as ending with an "a", rather than a "y". — Nom dePlume, Ph.D Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000 ===== "Laila" <Iilli…@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1110749881.394893.73420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something similar > last night with my friends

Response:

Nom dePlume wrote: > D’oh! Occasionally I misread something in funny ways, and have to go > back and check. Imagine my surprise when I first read the title of > this section, perceiving "enemy" as ending with an "a", rather than a > "y".

Tis amazing how fluid the English language can be. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Laila" <Iilli…@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1110749881.394893.73420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… >> wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something >> similar last night with my friends

Response:

at this point, i think we need to consult a GI.

Response:

Question:

<ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1108168722.006455.126700@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… > Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving > relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits.

who gets to tell you which of your attitudes are evil and which of your habits are bad?

Response:

ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote <snips poetic-philosophical rant> A relationship only makes sense if it improves the life (sexually, socially, emotionally and maybe economically) of both partners. If it entails too much sacrifices for both or one of the partners, they’d better stay alone.

Response:

Alan, I tend to agree with your fearless approach to love. I know, for me, that love IS a sacrifice. Everything I do out of love for others causes my body serious pain and stress, but for those who CAN receive my small gestures if love, all of the pain is worth it.  Many will only accept a pseudo-love that is wrapped in thousand dollar bills. That is the only "love" they want. They never get enough because it is received by a sleeping heart. Even if the giver does care about that person’s well being outside of his own issues, the materialistic receiver in Truth rejects the intended Love. Real love gladly sacrifices, and is merciful on self and others. Laying everything on this world’s altar is a mistake. But I think that ilya meant the spirit of the particular instance she referred to, and not the broader spectrum of love. And maybe I’m wrong about that. In my own ongoing healing I’ve experienced that even my experience of hell is sacred, because it was my experience. And in my healing (ongoing) I’ve come out of denial that I do have a dark side. Most people are denying their darkness by blaming, punishing, killing others, and they really believe that doing so is justified and somehow justifies them. To be in denial about one’s darkside is to be in bondage to it. Not only that, we also insist that everyone else be in bondage to it too. I’m sure there is a great adventure for me ahead, discovering other things I’m in denial about. It goes on and on forever. Alan B. Mac Farlane" <al…@sonic.net> wrote in message news:BE361DE8.409B%alanb@sonic.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> in article 1108168722.006455.126…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, > ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com at ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote on 2/11/05 > 4:38 PM: >> what matters >> in a relationship is sacrifice. > well if you are a victim … with ptsd issues … > try to get off of expectation and judgement ilya … > put love inside where you have that being made up … > and come to love the rattlesnake the way the Great Everywhere Spirit loves > the rattlesnake … > same for how the Great Spirit loves you, loves your childhood, and loves > your parents … and loves your girlfriend who thinks sacrifice is all > about > relationship … > I of course disagee … as I see having fun, making love, and putting out > a > comfortable, happy, exciting plans to live in … is what a relationship > does on the outside … > on the inside … the adults do the work of putting love inside where all > the fear is … the contempt, the judgement, the expectations, the > criticism, the anger,  … all of it and that is from fear … > and carry love around to mix with their intention in what ever they create > … > instead of having hate, fear, judgement and all that negative stuff inside > to carry around and thus mix with the same intention in what ever they > create … > so they are doomed to manifest in the future .. > where they could just as well manifest the love … > GIGO at its best … > all hail God the Father who makes babies with His children … > sumbuddie who cares > :)

Response:

wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something similar last night with my friends

Response:

D’oh! Occasionally I misread something in funny ways, and have to go back and check. Imagine my surprise when I first read the title of this section, perceiving "enemy" as ending with an "a", rather than a "y". — Nom dePlume, Ph.D Why, yes, in fact, I am a rocket scientist. Guide to Medications for Mental Illness: http://www.geocities.com/nomdeplume1000 ===== "Laila" <Iilli…@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1110749881.394893.73420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something similar > last night with my friends

Response:

Nom dePlume wrote: > D’oh! Occasionally I misread something in funny ways, and have to go > back and check. Imagine my surprise when I first read the title of > this section, perceiving "enemy" as ending with an "a", rather than a > "y".

Tis amazing how fluid the English language can be. Doug – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Laila" <Iilli…@gmail.com> wrote in message > news:1110749881.394893.73420@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com… >> wow, this was actually a good post.  i was discussing something >> similar last night with my friends

Response:

at this point, i think we need to consult a GI.

Response:

in article 1108168722.006455.126…@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com, ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com at ilya_shambat2…@yahoo.com wrote on 2/11/05 4:38 PM: > what matters > in a relationship is sacrifice.

well if you are a victim … with ptsd issues … try to get off of expectation and judgement ilya … put love inside where you have that being made up … and come to love the rattlesnake the way the Great Everywhere Spirit loves the rattlesnake … same for how the Great Spirit loves you, loves your childhood, and loves your parents … and loves your girlfriend who thinks sacrifice is all about relationship … I of course disagee … as I see having fun, making love, and putting out a comfortable, happy, exciting plans to live in … is what a relationship does on the outside … on the inside … the adults do the work of putting love inside where all the fear is … the contempt, the judgement, the expectations, the criticism, the anger,  … all of it and that is from fear … and carry love around to mix with their intention in what ever they create … instead of having hate, fear, judgement and all that negative stuff inside to carry around and thus mix with the same intention in what ever they create … so they are doomed to manifest in the future .. where they could just as well manifest the love … GIGO at its best … all hail God the Father who makes babies with His children … sumbuddie who cares :)

Response:

"sumire" <sumire_kawab…@nospam.yahoo.co.uk> wrote in news:dcbc5b3d5c33a8c71771a10cb6cc09ab@localhost.talkaboutsupport.com: > Yet sometimes you actually HAVE to sacrifice > something for love – you have to make a choice > and leave behind something you might miss > and hence make up for later.

I renounced a bag of gummi bears, once, to my lasting regret. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!"  Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com

Response:

artificiallife <phar…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:pan.2005.02.14.06.05.18.273911@yahoo.com: >> Ilya Shambat. > Nice post. Insightful.

For god’s sake, don’t encourage him. — "Poor Jack–he was a wise man, but he loved playing with that wheat thresher. ALWAYS with the wheat thresher!"  Peter Griffin. Winning Hearts&Minds: http://eerierodent.blogspot.com

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 11 Feb 2005 16:38:42 -0800, ilya_shambat2004 wrote: > A woman I know (not an ex-girlfriend) told me that, when she was > younger, someone wrote her a song. I asked her why had she not married > that man, and she said that writing a song means nothing; what matters > in a relationship is sacrifice. > My mental response: Then you’ve gotten precisely what you deserved in > an abusive marriage that followed. > Sacrifice? What kind of vanity – what kind of sense of entitlement – > what kind of utter lack of concern for the man you claim to love – > would demand such a hideous thing? What kind of cruelty, ignorance and > destructiveness would want someone to sacrifice himself for you? This > is a recipe for misery, not for love and certainly not for happiness. > As people sacrifice themselves to each other, their anger at each > other grows; their resentment of each other grows; and soon enough it > turns into mutual hatred of one another and, from that, abuse by one or > by both parties. > Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving > relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits. Consideration, yes; > caring, yes; compassion, yes; charitability, yes; sensitivity, yes; > sacrifice, no. Loving relationships are life-affirming rather than > death-seeking. Loving relationships affirm and validate each other’s > selves rather than demanding their destruction. Loving relationships > help each other be happy rather than dragging each other into mutual > self-annihilation. Loving relationships help each other to be the best > of who they are rather than seek to demolish each other’s selves as > though they were each other’s worst enemies – the enemies which, of > course, as a result of such attitudes they become. > The idea that relationships are about sacrifice lead the partners to > see each other’s self as their enemy – as something that needs to be > sacrificed in order that the relationship can exist. Is that a recipe > for happiness? Is that a recipe for a life worth living? Or is that a > recipe for mutual hatred – the hatred that is rightly directed against > someone who seeks to destroy one’s self as the price of being with > them? > It is attitudes like this that are responsible for misery in > relationships. I repeat: Nobody who loves you will demand that you > surrender your self. Love is affirming rather than negating, and to > claim sacrifice as the price of love is against everything that is > loving. > After the people who have such attitudes come to their logical > consummation – the morass of resentment and mutual hatred a few years > or even months down the road – they blame it on love, or on romance, or > on youth, or on beauty, when the only thing to blame is their beliefs > and actions they take in pursuance of their beliefs. The people who > demand self-sacrifice as the price of love are people who see the other > person’s self as their enemy and treat them as their worst enemy – and > there is nothing – nothing – less loving and charitable than such an > outcome; the outcome that is the logical consummation of such beliefs. > So to those who believe that love is about sacrifice, I say the > following: You are the reason for most misery in relationships. You > cannot love a person and see their self as your enemy – as something > that needs to be sacrificed – at the same time. And true love is love > that affirms each other’s self rather than seeking to destroy it, or > that seeks sacrifice, or that sees obedience as price of love. > Ilya Shambat.

Nice post. Insightful.

Response:

sumire wrote: > Yes, a general truth. > Demanding sacrifice for love IS destructive. > Yet sometimes you actually HAVE to sacrifice > something for love – you have to make a choice > and leave behind something you might miss > and hence make up for later.

Yes, I allow for that too. I said that you need to sacrifice evil attitudes and bad habits. Of course, that is a sacrifice that in itself leads to good things for you rather than bad ones, and while it may be difficult at first the rewards are more than worth it. What you have then, is a better person than you’d been before. And that is good whether you stay with the woman or not. > You demand an ideal and perfect attitude.

Do I really? > I have never ever met the respective ideal > and perfect person. But many of those striving > for the best way to live love, trying and erring again and again.

I don’t believe in perfection. I believe in being the best of what you can be. > Can we really expect more?

Nope. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

Yes, a general truth. Demanding sacrifice for love IS destructive. Yet sometimes you actually HAVE to sacrifice something for love – you have to make a choice and leave behind something you might miss and hence make up for later. You demand an ideal and perfect attitude. I have never ever met the respective ideal and perfect person. But many of those striving for the best way to live love, trying and erring again and again. Can we really expect more? Sumi

Response:

A woman I know (not an ex-girlfriend) told me that, when she was younger, someone wrote her a song. I asked her why had she not married that man, and she said that writing a song means nothing; what matters in a relationship is sacrifice. My mental response: Then you’ve gotten precisely what you deserved in an abusive marriage that followed. Sacrifice? What kind of vanity – what kind of sense of entitlement – what kind of utter lack of concern for the man you claim to love – would demand such a hideous thing? What kind of cruelty, ignorance and destructiveness would want someone to sacrifice himself for you? This is a recipe for misery, not for love and certainly not for happiness. As people sacrifice themselves to each other, their anger at each other grows; their resentment of each other grows; and soon enough it turns into mutual hatred of one another and, from that, abuse by one or by both parties. Sacrifice? The only thing you have to sacrifice in a loving relationship is evil attitudes and bad habits. Consideration, yes; caring, yes; compassion, yes; charitability, yes; sensitivity, yes; sacrifice, no. Loving relationships are life-affirming rather than death-seeking. Loving relationships affirm and validate each other’s selves rather than demanding their destruction. Loving relationships help each other be happy rather than dragging each other into mutual self-annihilation. Loving relationships help each other to be the best of who they are rather than seek to demolish each other’s selves as though they were each other’s worst enemies – the enemies which, of course, as a result of such attitudes they become. The idea that relationships are about sacrifice lead the partners to see each other’s self as their enemy – as something that needs to be sacrificed in order that the relationship can exist. Is that a recipe for happiness? Is that a recipe for a life worth living? Or is that a recipe for mutual hatred – the hatred that is rightly directed against someone who seeks to destroy one’s self as the price of being with them? It is attitudes like this that are responsible for misery in relationships. I repeat: Nobody who loves you will demand that you surrender your self. Love is affirming rather than negating, and to claim sacrifice as the price of love is against everything that is loving. After the people who have such attitudes come to their logical consummation – the morass of resentment and mutual hatred a few years or even months down the road – they blame it on love, or on romance, or on youth, or on beauty, when the only thing to blame is their beliefs and actions they take in pursuance of their beliefs. The people who demand self-sacrifice as the price of love are people who see the other person’s self as their enemy and treat them as their worst enemy – and there is nothing – nothing – less loving and charitable than such an outcome; the outcome that is the logical consummation of such beliefs. So to those who believe that love is about sacrifice, I say the following: You are the reason for most misery in relationships. You cannot love a person and see their self as your enemy – as something that needs to be sacrificed – at the same time. And true love is love that affirms each other’s self rather than seeking to destroy it, or that seeks sacrifice, or that sees obedience as price of love. Ilya Shambat.

Response:

Question:

there is very little anyone can do that upsets me anymore, I understand myself better and this help me understand others, the blood suckinging scums, and I know a few, don’t understand the harm they are doing themselfs or they have a disorder that makes it difficult for them to change, and until they want to I ignore them as best as possible, part of ignoring them is to not change what I was doing or how I feel, if you think backwards before the encounter this is how you want to feel or better when I don’t react the way they expect it usually changes the dynamics of the situation Jim — The charter is available at:

Question:

I have decided to e-mail a copy of this post to my thearpist, so I can discuss it in this weeks session.  It took me a long time to decide this, but with your encourgment, and the encourgment of the people on the other group I posted to as well, I decided it is best to share it with my thearpist. Thank You —

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Newsgroup: alt.support.anxiety-panic.moderated my questions for this group are: 1. Should I talk to my thearpist about this? 2. What else can i do to work on getting over this? Talk to a professional.  You seem too traumatized by the incident to get on with life without some resolution. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at:

Question:

"Nancy" <kipc…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:Cr1Bd.15535$jn.69@lakeread06… > Hi Ron! > I am sorry that you seem to qualify for this ng.

[snip] > If you have been using alcohol to medicate yourself, then you must stop > before entering (or trying to enter) a VA PTSD program.

Nancy I have trouble with your use of that ‘must’ word. My experience tells me using words like ‘must,’ ’should’ drives people further away. ‘Suggest’ is a better word. > Everyone in an AA group has used alcohol to self-medicate.  The why of > the self-medication doesn’t really matter.  Then, self-medication became > a habit, then an uncontrollable habit (aka addiction).

Yes and even if one is still drinking they are welcomed at AA. > It is your choice to feel alone or not.  All the folks in the AA groups > are exactly like you, even though you all have different backgrounds.

Or leave AA when your brain is well enough to pursue professional duty of care methods of recovery. Preferably leave AA before it becomes the addiction. I believe many AA members who drank themselves to death would still be alive today if they didn’t feel so guilty about picking up a drink after attending AA for a number of years. I knew a 36 yo woman who had been sober for seven years. AA had become her life. She allowed sponsors and well meaning AA members to rule her life. She walked the walk and talked the talk, "don’t pick up the first drink!" "Knock of meetings knock of pots (glasses of beer)," and keep coming back…..she new the big book inside out. One day she picked up a drink and finished a 1/2 gallon of port. Her suicide note told the world she felt so guilty because she had let AA down. I can give other examples too, like the ones who have finished their inventory, presented it to their sponsor. Sponsor says its not good enough and member ‘SHOULD’ attend more meetings. pugs

Response:

Hi pugs! I guess, that after 100 days on killfile basis, you graduated back to a ‘trial’ basis, or I wouldn’t be seeing this post :)  I hope that I do not feel the need to killfile you again. >> If you have been using alcohol to medicate yourself, then you must >> stop before entering (or trying to enter) a VA PTSD program. > Nancy I have trouble with your use of that ‘must’ word. > My experience tells me using words like ‘must,’ ’should’ drives people > further away. ‘Suggest’ is a better word.

This is not _my_ ‘must’, it is the _VA_’s must.  The pros there refuse to treat anyone on any drugs, including alcohol; I think that the only drug use which they permit is nicotine. >> Everyone in an AA group has used alcohol to self-medicate.  The why >> of the self-medication doesn’t really matter.  Then, self-medication >> became a habit, then an uncontrollable habit (aka addiction). > Yes and even if one is still drinking they are welcomed at AA. >> It is your choice to feel alone or not.  All the folks in the AA >> groups are exactly like you, even though you all have different >> backgrounds. > Or leave AA when your brain is well enough to pursue professional duty > of care methods of recovery. > Preferably leave AA before it becomes the addiction.

        ———– snip of individual stories ————- While certainly individuals within AA have various experiences, not always healthy, it is important to remember that without AA many of these folks would kill themselves anyway. PTSD and alcohol are a lethal combination, pugs.  Each one of them is lethal IMO and IME.  The two together is more than the sum of its parts. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

"notchimera" <d…@bother.com> wrote in message

news:7vrdt05cd5fge94h448rjbmptm81i0llt6@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Fri, 31 Dec 2004 15:06:54 GMT, Nancy <kipc…@msn.com> wrote: > ->Hi pugs! > -> > ->I guess, that after 100 days on killfile basis, you graduated back to a > ->’trial’ basis, or I wouldn’t be seeing this post :)  I hope that I do > not > ->feel the need to killfile you again. > -> > ->>> If you have been using alcohol to medicate yourself, then you must > ->>> stop before entering (or trying to enter) a VA PTSD program. > ->> > ->> Nancy I have trouble with your use of that ‘must’ word. > ->> My experience tells me using words like ‘must,’ ’should’ drives people > ->> further away. ‘Suggest’ is a better word. > -> > ->This is not _my_ ‘must’, it is the _VA_’s must.  The pros there refuse > to > ->treat anyone on any drugs, including alcohol; I think that the only drug > ->use which they permit is nicotine. > -> > ->>> Everyone in an AA group has used alcohol to self-medicate.  The why > ->>> of the self-medication doesn’t really matter.  Then, self-medication > ->>> became a habit, then an uncontrollable habit (aka addiction). > ->> > ->> Yes and even if one is still drinking they are welcomed at AA. > ->> > ->>> It is your choice to feel alone or not.  All the folks in the AA > ->>> groups are exactly like you, even though you all have different > ->>> backgrounds. > ->> > ->> Or leave AA when your brain is well enough to pursue professional duty > ->> of care methods of recovery. > ->> > ->> Preferably leave AA before it becomes the addiction. > -> > ->    ———– snip of individual stories ————- > -> > ->While certainly individuals within AA have various experiences, not > ->always healthy, it is important to remember that without AA many of > these > ->folks would kill themselves anyway. > -> > ->PTSD and alcohol are a lethal combination, pugs.  Each one of them is > ->lethal IMO and IME.  The two together is more than the sum of its parts. > -> > ->YMMV > -> > ->Smile and there will be something to smile about! > ->Nancy > AA attendance can create its own set of problems if one is not > careful.  I wondered why I’d been in and out of AA for 17 years > without getting much from it and always turned off by the cultist > attitude.  AA made my PTSD worse whenever I attended. > If you like 12 step programs, do as you please.  Just know all the > facts first.  There are alternatives, such as Rational Recovery. > Personally, I think AA is OK for initial support and fellowship. Be > careful who you associate with, though.  There’s a lot of very > dysfunctional people who become obsessed with the program and don’t > grow.  Be wary of 13th-stepping (sexual predators). > http://www.aadeprogramming.com > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step-free/

Thank you notchimera. I attended AA on & off for a number of years and then constantly for two years. During that final two years I didn’t drink at all but became very depressed . Thankfully my depression was noticed by friends who put me in touch with a phycologist who had a Rational Therapy program. Today I am a sociable drinker. I believe my use of alcohol addiction weakened in line with a reduction in panic attacks. The panic attacks which came before alcohol addiction, which were treated with Therapy, Ant-depressants, Sedatives. I also believe a drug called Campril helped me to overcome alcohol addiction. I am mind altering drug free now but would not rule out returning to medication if problems returned. pugs

Response:

Pugs, you’ve got guts! take care Linda —  *  Though my soul may set in darkness  *  It will rise in perfect light  *  For I have loved the stars too fondly  *  To be fearful of the night. S. Williams ‘The Old Astronomer to his Pupil’ – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Thank you notchimera. > I attended AA on & off for a number of years and then constantly for two > years. > During that final two years I didn’t drink at all but became very depressed > . > Thankfully my depression was noticed by friends who put me in touch with a > phycologist who had a Rational Therapy program. > Today I am a sociable drinker. > I believe my use of alcohol addiction weakened in line with a reduction in > panic attacks. > The panic attacks which came before alcohol addiction, which were treated > with Therapy, Ant-depressants, Sedatives. > I also believe a drug called Campril helped me to overcome alcohol > addiction. > I am mind altering drug free now but would not rule out returning to > medication if problems returned. > pugs

Response:

Hi, and thank you for your feedback. Yes, I have seen far too many people who’ve become addicted to AA. They always say, "Well, I really needed a meeting tonight…". They are easy to spot, just as the trolls in ng’s and chat’s. Right, it’s their shit, and I don’t need it. Since the last post, I have attended more meetings, ’cause that’s what my sentence calls for. So….. As far as this aloneness goes, it is not too bad on some days, but then it does get to me once in a while. When that occurs, I read, write, take naps, get outside for fresh air, and read the ng’s. -snip- > I’ve spent some time in a trauma hospital myself.  There is so much "new" > out there for help…..the doc’s seem to be able to help more and more > these days.  Waiting in itself is a type of hell…..at least for me.  It > seems > like I’ve been waiting forever to get over some of my stuff.  Patience > is called for but when I’ve waited so long….patience wears mighty thin.

I’ve been to VA hospitals for treatment two times, and what I got out of it each time was the comfortable feeling of fellowship. (It is a 12-step program….)  I have not accepted much of what AA professes, except in the "misery loves company" part, ie. fellowship, coffee and cigarettes! I go again tonight at 8, but need to get a nap in b/’4 going. ;-) -snip- > Post away….we’re here to listen and lend a hand when we can by sharing > our experiences.  I don’t spend any time worrying about the trolls who do > nothing but spill their ugliness out on and into this ng.  That’s their problem. > And it’s soooo easy to just move on to the next post.

 I am grateful to be among so many others who share similar experiences. -snip- > It saddens me to learn that you know what it’s like to be so alone.  Not a > fun place to be.  AA and the connections you make there with others is > a good thing.  I tried a local depression group but that didn’t work out > for me.  Second time I was there I was almost accused of breaking into this > young womans home as she had lost a ring like the one I wear.  bleck. > I didn’t have to quit but at the time I just didn’t have the desire to go > back….seemed like one more location where I didn’t fit in.  Poor me.;] > I can look back on it now and smile but at the time I was truly pissed. > Hadn’t worked on my anger yet so it’s most likely a good thing I didn’t > go back. > AA believes in a higher power…..having my faith has strengthen me > beyong words.  I hope you can find some comfort there.

-snip- > Welcome to this ng, Ron.  Maybe now neither one of us can say we > have no one to turn to… > Donna

Donna, the highest power I know personally is my rational mind. Fellowship, as well, gives me the hope that strengthens me down to my soul. I will certainly reach for the comfort you haqve extended. On the 5 Jan. I go to the Minneapolis VA to get shrunk/shrank/shrunken, again! I need to go to remain eligible for free counseling. I will have much to say., that is if the shrink is trrustworthy, and not just another "Pod Person". Pod people are those folks that attempt to get their hooks into you so as to pull you into their reality. Remember that old sci-fi movie? Thanks, again, and until the next time…peace, Ron

Response:

Hi, My everyday experience appears not uncommon among many of this ng’s members. I am Ron, another VietVet. I like what Nancy said about sleeping all day if it feels right, or taking any number of baths to assuage the unease. I have been thinking for a long time about entering a trauma recovery program at one of the VA medical centers in 2005. Now that it is almost 2005, I am eager to get a handle on this f’ing disorder, the wait is making me more anxious. There is much more I have to say, but am hesitant to do so in a forum such as this.(Sometimes I find it hard to express myself regarding the day-to-day recollections.) I see that there are a few out there who seem to be lurking and waiting to feed on the real effects the true suffers feel. I know who they are, and I know that they will "get theirs" in due time. Right now, like Donna, I have no one to turn to, and I am alone. I go to AA meetings four nights per week and only find the fellowship comforting. There are no other vets in these groups, so I continue to feel alone. That’s all I can say…Ron

Response:

Hi Ron, welcome to the group from another new ‘newbie’ :-) Panther "Ron Riley" <tetve…@mchsi.com> wrote in message

news:C8MAd.586572$wV.501449@attbi_s54… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, > My everyday experience appears not uncommon among many of this ng’s members. > I am Ron, another VietVet. I like what Nancy said about sleeping all day if > it feels right, or taking any number of baths to assuage the unease. > I have been thinking for a long time about entering a trauma recovery > program at one of the VA medical centers in 2005. Now that it is almost > 2005, I am eager to get a handle on this f’ing disorder, the wait is making > me more anxious. > There is much more I have to say, but am hesitant to do so in a forum such > as this.(Sometimes I find it hard to express myself regarding the day-to-day > recollections.) I see that there are a few out there who seem to be lurking > and waiting to feed on the real effects the true suffers feel. I know who > they are, and I know that they will "get theirs" in due time. > Right now, like Donna, I have no one to turn to, and I am alone. I go to AA > meetings four nights per week and only find the fellowship comforting. There > are no other vets in these groups, so I continue to feel alone. > That’s all I can say…Ron

Response:

In article <C8MAd.586572$wV.501449@attbi_s54>, Ron Riley says… > Right now, like Donna, I have no one to turn to, and I am alone. I go to AA > meetings four nights per week and only find the fellowship comforting. There > are no other vets in these groups, so I continue to feel alone.

Hi Ron! Welcome aboard! We could have used your practical advice on AA a month or so back. There are one or two veterans in this group, plus at least one who likes to pretend he is, but you should be able to spot the fake(s) in the usual way. Cheers, Peter

Response:

> Hi, > My everyday experience appears not uncommon among many of this ng’s > members. > I am Ron, another VietVet. I like what Nancy said about sleeping all day > if > it feels right, or taking any number of baths to assuage the unease.

It is good advice but I feel so lazy when I do things like sleep all day. Still do it at times….just wish I could feel good about doing nothing. :] I’m so use to being busy busy busy to keep some of my stuff from catching up to me that it’s still hard to slow down and just smell the roses.  But I’m getting there! > I have been thinking for a long time about entering a trauma recovery > program at one of the VA medical centers in 2005. Now that it is almost > 2005, I am eager to get a handle on this f’ing disorder, the wait is > making > me more anxious.

I’ve spent some time in a truama hospital myself.  There is so much "new" out there for help…..the doc’s seem to be able to help more and more these days.  Waiting in itself is a type of hell…..at least for me.  It seems like I’ve been waiting forever to get over some of my stuff.  Patience is called for but when I’ve waited so long….patience wears mighty thin. > There is much more I have to say, but am hesitant to do so in a forum such > as this.(Sometimes I find it hard to express myself regarding the > day-to-day > recollections.) I see that there are a few out there who seem to be > lurking > and waiting to feed on the real effects the true suffers feel. I know who > they are, and I know that they will "get theirs" in due time.

Post away….we’re here to listen and lend a hand when we can by sharing our experiences.  I don’t spend any time worrying about the trolls who do nothing but spill their ugliness out on and into this ng.  That’s their problem. And it’s soooo easy to just move on to the next post. > Right now, like Donna, I have no one to turn to, and I am alone. I go to > AA > meetings four nights per week and only find the fellowship comforting. > There > are no other vets in these groups, so I continue to feel alone. > That’s all I can say…Ron

It saddens me to learn that you know what it’s like to be so alone.  Not a fun place to be.  AA and the connections you make there with others is a good thing.  I tried a local depression group but that didn’t work out for me.  Second time I was there I was almost accused of breaking into this young womans home as she had lost a ring like the one I wear.  bleck. I didn’t have to quit but at the time I just didn’t have the desire to go back….seemed like one more location where I didn’t fit in.  Poor me.;] I can look back on it now and smile but at the time I was truly pissed. Hadn’t worked on my anger yet so it’s most likely a good thing I didn’t go back. AA believes in a higher power…..having my faith has strengthen me beyong words.  I hope you can find some comfort there. Welcome to this ng, Ron.  Maybe now neither one of us can say we have no one to turn to… Donna

Response:

Hi Ron! I am sorry that you seem to qualify for this ng. but … Welcome home! > I have been thinking for a long time about entering a trauma recovery > program at one of the VA medical centers in 2005. Now that it is > almost 2005, I am eager to get a handle on this f’ing disorder, the > wait is making me more anxious.

Well, go for it, is all I can say.  The alternative sucks.  But, remember to follow orders throughout the stay … they do bump uncooperative (non- compliant) folks out in favor of those who are willing to cooperate, no matter how silly the instructions seem to be.  I surely could relate to repeating this experience. :/ > Right now, like Donna, I have no one to turn to, and I am alone. I go > to AA meetings four nights per week and only find the fellowship > comforting. There are no other vets in these groups, so I continue to > feel alone.

If you have been using alcohol to medicate yourself, then you must stop before entering (or trying to enter) a VA PTSD program. Everyone in an AA group has used alcohol to self-medicate.  The why of the self-medication doesn’t really matter.  Then, self-medication became a habit, then an uncontrollable habit (aka addiction). It is your choice to feel alone or not.  All the folks in the AA groups are exactly like you, even though you all have different backgrounds. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Question:

I am in the awareness stage of my recovery. My therapist and I have been working toward taking some Cognitive Beh. Therapy steps soon. But, since the awareness of my situation (the trauma and my life afterward-I didn’t have a before trauma, I’ve been living it in one form or another since before birth) I am really angry. Anything and everything sets me off.Today I had a 45 minute conversation with a lady I’m doing business with. (that I knew for sure was lying to me….absolutely, and I really really yelled and got both offensive and defensive with her). That got me no where except really mad and made my SO really nervous. I feel like a jagged edge. I feel like I’m a raw nerve. I feel naked. Please help. My SO would really appreciate it (not to mention me). Thanks Zack PS: From now on my nick is "In Through The Out Door" Just FYI

Response:

Hi Zack! > I am really angry.

This is a really healthy awareness on your part.  It is important, however, to not redirect your anger towards just anyone within your reach. :/ > Anything and everything sets me off.

Actually, I think that when I get ’set off’, it is because someone is doing the same thing to me that was done to me before I started therapy and recovery. For example: my son has some of his father’s ways of doing things, which includes name-calling, lack of patience and yelling … all at the same time .. when he gets really frustrated with my lack of focus. Last night, while trying to get the snow-blower working, apparently he asked me where the gasoline was.  I told him I did not know.  Then, I asked him where the gasoline was.  Sounds like the Keystone Kops to me but I don’t remember it; I just remember finding the mixed gas can. ??? Anyway, when I found the mixed gas can (as opposed to the straight gas can for the lawn mower) and showed it to him, he really blew up. Of course, the major stressor for him was that some kids were coming over to see him and we had about 10 inches of snow in the drive. And, the snowing had started up again. I opined that he was being abusive and let it go. Today, he came to me to apologize for his behavior and to say that he gets really angry when I don’t give him a ’straight answer’.  I asked him what he wanted me to use as a code word to slow down his anger reactions … call him by his Dad’s name?  He said that he did not want to be called by his Dad’s name (Joe abused him as a child), but did not yet know what he wanted me to do to remind him to calm down before he started blurting words that hurt. You and your SO might want to consider a conspiracy of code words to calm you when you get in an inappropriate rage. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->I am in the awareness stage of my recovery. My therapist and I have been > working toward taking some Cognitive Beh. Therapy steps soon. But, since > the awareness of my situation (the trauma and my life afterward-I didn’t > have a before trauma, I’ve been living it in one form or another since > before birth) I am really angry. Anything and everything sets me off.Today > I had a 45 minute conversation with a lady I’m doing business with. (that > I knew for sure was lying to me….absolutely, and I really really yelled > and got both offensive and defensive with her). That got me no where > except really mad and made my SO really nervous. I feel like a jagged > edge. I feel like I’m a raw nerve. I feel naked. > Please help. My SO would really appreciate it (not to mention me). > Thanks > Zack

Zack, Nancy wrote some wise words.  I can only say that I know where you are coming from.  Dang never every thing is a trigger to me.  I think "I’m there" only for more stuff to come up.  I’ve been living and re-living my past so many times. Don’t mean to sound negative.  There is always hope.  You have a therapist. That’s a good thing.  I have no one to turn to for help.  And I’m tired. Keep writing here….cuz away if you need to.  It won’t bother me.  In fact, I’ll like it….means I’m not alone in this crazy world of mine. Donna

Response:

Hi Donna! > Dang never every thing is a trigger to me.  I think "I’m there" > only for more stuff to come up.  I’ve been living and re-living my > past so many times.

This is a major component of PTSD … reliving the past over and over. While it has taken me about 12 years, I usually think that I have some control over my own brain and this re-living.  I do NOT. I know it is a crazed response to want the event(s) to come out differently.  I know it is a crazed response to not be able to accept what happened and its repurcussions. All I know for certain is that the more I make this ‘re-living’ in my brain a friend, the easier it has become to deal with. YMMV > I have no one to turn to for help. > And I’m tired.

Be extremely careful, Donna.  This is a recipe for disaster. Take care of yourself, even if it means sleeping 20 hours a day, and 15 bubble baths when you are awake.  Only you can soothe yourself and your troubled brain.  And, IME the soothing, paying attention to, and communicating with the other half of your brain makes all the difference. YMMV > Keep writing here….cuz away if you need to.  It won’t bother me.  In > fact, I’ll like it….means I’m not alone in this crazy world of mine.

You are NOT alone, either of you! Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Nancy, you are a wonderful gift for me this Christmas season. Thank you for being you.  Your wisdom and caring mean so much.  God bless you. Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Donna! >> Dang never every thing is a trigger to me.  I think "I’m there" >> only for more stuff to come up.  I’ve been living and re-living my >> past so many times. > This is a major component of PTSD … reliving the past over and over. > While it has taken me about 12 years, I usually think that I have some > control over my own brain and this re-living.  I do NOT. > I know it is a crazed response to want the event(s) to come out > differently.  I know it is a crazed response to not be able to accept > what happened and its repurcussions. > All I know for certain is that the more I make this ‘re-living’ in my > brain a friend, the easier it has become to deal with. > YMMV >> I have no one to turn to for help. >> And I’m tired. > Be extremely careful, Donna.  This is a recipe for disaster. > Take care of yourself, even if it means sleeping 20 hours a day, and 15 > bubble baths when you are awake.  Only you can soothe yourself and your > troubled brain.  And, IME the soothing, paying attention to, and > communicating with the other half of your brain makes all the > difference. > YMMV >> Keep writing here….cuz away if you need to.  It won’t bother me.  In >> fact, I’ll like it….means I’m not alone in this crazy world of mine. > You are NOT alone, either of you! > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > Nancy

Response:

Hi Donna! > Nancy, you are a wonderful gift for me this Christmas season. > Thank you for being you.  Your wisdom and caring mean so > much.  God bless you.

You are welcome. :) and God bless you and those you care about, too. Now, if I can continue to progress, I’ll have it made also. :/ December is very difficult for me.  The anniversary date plus the general holiday ‘happiness’ is very difficult for me to cope. This year I managed to jamb my right shoulder December 4 to the extent that it was x-rayed (no breaks) and I am now on darvocettes for the pain.   Of course, every time it starts to recover, I put too much strain on it.   Like Christmas Day, I polished too much silver … the table looked great, the pain hit the next day. Talk about my self-sabotage abilities! YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Question:

lucasnos…@yourmail.com — Peter Lucas                             Brisbane                                 Australia       A good friend would drive 30 miles at 2:00 am to bail you out of jail. A best friend, however, would be sitting in the cell next to you saying "Man, that was F’n Awesome!"

Response:

"Lucas" <lucasnos…@yourmail.com> wrote in message

news:32t010F3nru82U1@individual.net… > "Lucas, Peter" <SkyS…@overthere.com.> wrote in > news:Xns95C7CCFDF4D1CGoBrisbaneLions@130.133.1.4: > > tealou <yom…@twinkies.com> who is a Brisbane Lions fan wrote in > > news:41c92edf$1@quokka.wn.com.au: > >> Do you parents still fuck, Typh? > > His mum does the $5 jobbies. > > Whips the old teeth out and gums away!! > Peter Lucas, you are one sad individual.

Nice to see you are still in form, asshole.  Even *after* an old friend writes here for help, you insist upon shoveling shit here in a *support group*.  You are one sick fuck.  Weaseling around in a SUPPORT GROUP, trying to give the impression to those who don’t UNDERSTAND, that you have PTSD. But when the chips are down, you unfailingly display the true ASSHOLE that you really are, fuck-wad.

Response:

"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> who is a Brisbane Lions fan wrote in news:pAgyd.1287$g55.138@bignews3.bellsouth.net: > "Lucas" <lucasnos…@yourmail.com> wrote in message > Nice to see you are still in form, asshole.  Even *after* an old > friend writes here for help, you insist upon shoveling shit here in a > *support group*.  You are one sick fuck.  Weaseling around in a > SUPPORT GROUP, trying to give the impression to those who don’t > UNDERSTAND, that you have PTSD. But when the chips are down, you > unfailingly display the true ASSHOLE that you really are, fuck-wad.

Couldn’t have said it any better about the turd myself. Well done TD!! Karma *will* catch up with it :-) — Peter Lucas                             Brisbane                                 Australia       A good friend would drive 30 miles at 2:00 am to bail you out of jail. A best friend, however, would be sitting in the cell next to you saying "Man, that was F’n Awesome!"

Response:

"Lucas, Peter" <SkyS…@overthere.com.> wrote in message

news:Xns95C88C0D84257GoBrisbaneLions@130.133.1.4… > "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> who is a Brisbane Lions fan wrote > in news:pAgyd.1287$g55.138@bignews3.bellsouth.net: > > "Lucas" <lucasnos…@yourmail.com> wrote in message > > Nice to see you are still in form, asshole.  Even *after* an old > > friend writes here for help, you insist upon shoveling shit here in a > > *support group*.  You are one sick fuck.  Weaseling around in a > > SUPPORT GROUP, trying to give the impression to those who don’t > > UNDERSTAND, that you have PTSD. But when the chips are down, you > > unfailingly display the true ASSHOLE that you really are, fuck-wad. > Couldn’t have said it any better about the turd myself. Well done TD!!

Ah, it felt so good, had to have a cigarette afterwards.  ;> > Karma *will* catch up with it :-)

And give it a good ass-kicking.   ;) td – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> — > Peter Lucas > Brisbane > Australia > A good friend would drive 30 miles at 2:00 am to bail you out of jail. > A best friend, however, would be sitting in the cell next to you saying > "Man, that was F’n Awesome!"

Response:

"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> who is a closet loony wrote in news:r9tyd.6441$wZ1.6101@bignews3.bellsouth.net: >> > Nice to see you are still in form, asshole.  Even *after* an old >> > friend writes here for help, you insist upon shoveling shit here in a >> > *support group*.  You are one sick fuck.  Weaseling around in a >> > SUPPORT GROUP, trying to give the impression to those who don’t >> > UNDERSTAND, that you have PTSD. But when the chips are down, you >> > unfailingly display the true ASSHOLE that you really are, fuck-wad. >> Couldn’t have said it any better about the turd myself. Well done TD!! > Ah, it felt so good, had to have a cigarette afterwards.  ;>

And for those of us non-smokers sweltering in very muggy conditions…… a G&T will work a treat :-) >> Karma *will* catch up with it :-) > And give it a good ass-kicking.   ;)

Most certainly ;-) — Peter "Karma" Lucas                           Brisbane                                 Australia       A good friend would drive 30 miles at 2:00 am to bail you out of jail. A best friend, however, would be sitting in the cell next to you saying "Man, that was F’n Awesome!"

Response:

Question:

I haven’t frequented this group or any other for over a year. Trying to get in touch with you, Tiny Dancer and Nancy, makes me unhappy, as it seems to me the trolls have won. I hope you both have found another place to meet.I need your help badly. I have been beaten. I’m very lonely. So is my man, who is much more affected by PTSD than I am.We need help, and if we don’t get it, he’ll kill me. Lotte

Response:

Lotte, what is happening?  I hardly ever come in here anymore, just happened to check before shutting down for the night? td "LOTTE" <lotte.wieslander_peebr…@telia.com> wrote in message

news:eO6yd.11759$d5.102450@newsb.telia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I haven’t frequented this group or any other for over a year. Trying to get > in touch with you, Tiny Dancer and Nancy, makes me unhappy, as it seems to > me the trolls have won. I hope you both have found another place to meet.I > need your help badly. I have been beaten. I’m very lonely. So is my man, who > is much more affected by PTSD than I am.We need help, and if we don’t get > it, he’ll kill me. > Lotte

Response:

Lotte, please continue to write and speak ,keep up the search for help, the survivors are still here and I am sure they will respond, Tiny is alerted, I am positive Nancy will write if she hasn’t done so already, be well, stay healthy and Hopeful, John De

Response:

Hi Lotte! > I haven’t frequented this group or any other for over a year.

Not a good idea … isolating always makes things worse. :/ > Trying to get in touch with you, Tiny Dancer and Nancy,

While the address I post to this ng is valid, I do not necessarily check it every day.  Thus, the fastest way for you to get in touch with me is via the ng. OTOH, please don’t send me an email without enabling me to respond back.   This has been done several times in the last 2 months. <grr> > as it seems to me the trolls have won.

Trolls, what trolls?  Since I killfiled them, I don’t even know they are here.  :) > I need your help badly. I have been beaten. I’m very > lonely. So is my man, who is much more affected by PTSD than I am.We > need help, and if we don’t get it, he’ll kill me.

Your first responsibility is to yourself and your own body, Lotte.  Your man will be responsible if you refuse to enable him.  If he beat you, then he is not a safe person for you to be around … period. There must be a safe place … away from your house and your man … where you can go when he starts to explode. This is the first requirement if you wish to ‘get better’. As always, YMMV. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Lotte, write back here again and let us know you are okay.  Is your email address a fake one, or can I get in touch with you with it?   Missed you Lotte, was just thinking about you the other day.  I can help you find another place to speak without the trolls if you want. td "LOTTE" <lotte.wieslander_peebr…@telia.com> wrote in message

news:eO6yd.11759$d5.102450@newsb.telia.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I haven’t frequented this group or any other for over a year. Trying to get > in touch with you, Tiny Dancer and Nancy, makes me unhappy, as it seems to > me the trolls have won. I hope you both have found another place to meet.I > need your help badly. I have been beaten. I’m very lonely. So is my man, who > is much more affected by PTSD than I am.We need help, and if we don’t get > it, he’ll kill me. > Lotte

Response: