Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hello, > One thing I’m sure of after much thought and observation is that I’m > thinking continously for certain periods(I tend to switch when I watch TV) > and that this is my way of trying to cope with the upset in my body. It > helps a little but I don’t get very far with this for what is to me a > instinctive response. I wonder why I do this? I’d say it’s probably genetic. > Here’s something to think about. If we went for a swim in a swimming pool > would we be so distracted by the water all around that this endless chatter > in the brain might stop. The point I’m making is that if we could replace > the upset in our bodies by say being in a swimming pool(this is only an > example) and if the stimulus of the water splashing around could command our > attention effectively then we might stop all this chatter and surrender to > the water all around us. I used to go to a local pool and I probably did get > some relif. An even better thing to do would be to take a shower and hope > that water flowing over the body would be so satisfying that it would cancel > out the tension and anxiety. I know for a fact that this works for some > because a poster in this group told me this in another thread at an earlier > date. If we could relax in shower and stop all the chatter would this prove > that that the chatter is a coping mechanism. By chatter I mean the way we > are unable to concentrate say in a group or a meeting and it could mean > having conscious thoughts but thoughts that lack clarity and impact? Do you > know what I mean? > All of this applies to when we are having face to face conversations > something luckily I can cope with. The problems start for me when I’m on my > own and feeling the tension. > Peter Nolan. > Dublin.
Peter, I think what you call ‘chatter’ is probably just the thought processes (conscious and unconscious) that go on in the minds of everyone. We all think all the time (mostly subconsciously) and there is no way to stop it. But those who are not anxious don’t have the sorts of thoughts that make them feel uncomfortable or scared and so they remain mostly unaware of the ‘chatter’. The difference in people who are anxious is simply the content of the chatter and it’s consequences. The thoughts that have been found to trigger anxiety contain a common theme, fear or threat. The content or nature of the threat is what differentiates the different types of anxiety. In panic disorder and agoraphobia the threats are typically of physical symptoms leading to collapse (mental or physical); in generalised anxiety disorder its the threat of harm to the self or loved ones; in Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder it’s self-caused harm to the self or loved one; in specific phobias its improbable harm to self; in PTSD its intrusive memory of past threats of harm; and in social anxiety its threats of negative evaluation. One consequence of having these thoughts about threat is that the body responds by getting ready to deal with that threat, hence the symptoms of anxiety we are all familiar with, or the "upset in our bodies" you describe above. The whole ‘fight or flight’ response thing is about equipping the body to deal with a perceived threat. The problem in social anxiety is that the perceived threat is not life threatening and so getting the body ready to fight or take flight is inappropriate. So our heart beats faster to send blood to our muscles to deal with the threat by fighting or taking flight. We breathe faster to take in more oxygen to supply the same muscles. Our body sweats more to cool those muscles. Our thoughts also, triggered by the initial evaluation of the situation as threatening, turn to finding ways to deal with the threat, usually be either escape from or avoidance of the situation we perceive to be threatening. So in this sense you’re right about the ‘chatter’ being a coping mechanism. The problem is that if we escape or avoid we experience a tremendous sense of relief as the symptoms of anxiety subside. That is a problem because it reinforces the same behaviour in future situations, making us more likely each time to avoid or escape. The long term consequence of this course of action is that we become more and more convinced that we will experience the anxiety in those situations we have been avoiding or escaping from and which will lead to the feared outcome (e.g. humiliation, collapse, negative evaluation). But because we become more and more likely to escape or avoid we don’t properly examine the possibility that these outcomes won’t occur. So people with SP are more bothered by the chatter because of it’s content – thoughts about the threat of something bad happening soon, and because of its consequence – symptoms of anxiety, including urgent thoughts about how to deal with the threat, i.e. more ‘chatter’. People who are not anxious still think, but their thoughts "lack clarity and impact" in that they are mostly subconscious and mostly reasonably benign, i.e. they don’t trigger anxiety symptoms because their theme is not threat. When you watch TV, swim, take a shower or do some other activity which distracts you, you still continue to think, but the thoughts are no longer of threat, the symptoms of anxiety are not triggered and so you are able to switch off from the chatter or relax a bit more. So though it might be one answer to take more showers or to swim more, ultimately these will only lead to temporary relief at best. A more durable solution would be to identify the sorts of thoughts which might be triggering the feeling of threat and to teat the veracity of these. Best wishes CC
Response:
"CraigLawson29" <craiglawso…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20030520142808.15671.00000024@mb-m28.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >Here’s something to think about. If we went for a swim in a swimming pool > >would we be so distracted by the water all around that this endless chatter > >in the brain might stop. The point I’m making is that if we could replace > >the upset in our bodies by say being in a swimming pool(this is only an > >example) and if the stimulus of the water splashing around could command our > >attention effectively then we might stop all this chatter and surrender to > >the water all around us. I used to go to a local pool and I probably did get > >some relif. An even better thing to do would be to take a shower and hope > >that water flowing over the body would be so satisfying that it would cancel > >out the tension and anxiety. I know for a fact that this works for some > >because a poster in this group told me this in another thread at an earlier > >date. If we could relax in shower and stop all the chatter would this prove > >that that the chatter is a coping mechanism. By chatter I mean the way we > >are unable to concentrate say in a group or a meeting and it could mean > >having conscious thoughts but thoughts that lack clarity and impact? Do you > >know what I mean? > You are 100% correct on this. I have started taking long baths to relax and > it is the only time when my thoughts tend to stop. The physical sensation of > the water forces your mind to slow down. I also have a theory that Social > Phobics are probably too mental for this physical world. We are all up in our > heads while the rest of the world is largely in the body and so they connect > instantly with the other animals (Humans) around them very easily. For example, > a few years ago a girl in a College class was staring at me very intensely in a > sexually flirtatious manner. She was totally focused on her physical > surroundings which at that time was ME who was sitting in the row right behind > her. I however was all lost in my head, I was unable to connect with the > physical surroundings which was HER flirting with me. When she smiled at me I > wasn’t even able to smile back. This is how Social Phobic works. We have a wall > of mental anxiety that blocks us from connecting with people, even those who > like us and want to hump! LOL
Hello CraigLawson29, We are of the same mind here. So many other folks are just too physical as you put it. Right on. We have great difficulty reading and reacting to this gross physicality-how disgusting it is. What a truly bizarre way it is for people to interact with each other. I prefer my own style 
Peter Nolan. Dublin. I also recommend massage therapy to anyone who can afford this very expensive therapy.
Response:
Hello, One thing I’m sure of after much thought and observation is that I’m thinking continously for certain periods(I tend to switch when I watch TV) and that this is my way of trying to cope with the upset in my body. It helps a little but I don’t get very far with this for what is to me a instinctive response. I wonder why I do this? I’d say it’s probably genetic. Here’s something to think about. If we went for a swim in a swimming pool would we be so distracted by the water all around that this endless chatter in the brain might stop. The point I’m making is that if we could replace the upset in our bodies by say being in a swimming pool(this is only an example) and if the stimulus of the water splashing around could command our attention effectively then we might stop all this chatter and surrender to the water all around us. I used to go to a local pool and I probably did get some relif. An even better thing to do would be to take a shower and hope that water flowing over the body would be so satisfying that it would cancel out the tension and anxiety. I know for a fact that this works for some because a poster in this group told me this in another thread at an earlier date. If we could relax in shower and stop all the chatter would this prove that that the chatter is a coping mechanism. By chatter I mean the way we are unable to concentrate say in a group or a meeting and it could mean having conscious thoughts but thoughts that lack clarity and impact? Do you know what I mean? All of this applies to when we are having face to face conversations something luckily I can cope with. The problems start for me when I’m on my own and feeling the tension. Peter Nolan. Dublin.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Here’s something to think about. If we went for a swim in a swimming pool >would we be so distracted by the water all around that this endless chatter >in the brain might stop. The point I’m making is that if we could replace >the upset in our bodies by say being in a swimming pool(this is only an >example) and if the stimulus of the water splashing around could command our >attention effectively then we might stop all this chatter and surrender to >the water all around us. I used to go to a local pool and I probably did get >some relif. An even better thing to do would be to take a shower and hope >that water flowing over the body would be so satisfying that it would cancel >out the tension and anxiety. I know for a fact that this works for some >because a poster in this group told me this in another thread at an earlier >date. If we could relax in shower and stop all the chatter would this prove >that that the chatter is a coping mechanism. By chatter I mean the way we >are unable to concentrate say in a group or a meeting and it could mean >having conscious thoughts but thoughts that lack clarity and impact? Do you >know what I mean?
You are 100% correct on this. I have started taking long baths to relax and it is the only time when my thoughts tend to stop. The physical sensation of the water forces your mind to slow down. I also have a theory that Social Phobics are probably too mental for this physical world. We are all up in our heads while the rest of the world is largely in the body and so they connect instantly with the other animals (Humans) around them very easily. For example, a few years ago a girl in a College class was staring at me very intensely in a sexually flirtatious manner. She was totally focused on her physical surroundings which at that time was ME who was sitting in the row right behind her. I however was all lost in my head, I was unable to connect with the physical surroundings which was HER flirting with me. When she smiled at me I wasn’t even able to smile back. This is how Social Phobic works. We have a wall of mental anxiety that blocks us from connecting with people, even those who like us and want to hump! LOL
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> From: "Peter Nolan" <xpeter…@gofree.indigo.ie> > Organization: Indigo > Newsgroups: alt.support.social-phobia > Date: Mon, 19 May 2003 12:18:30 +0100 > Subject: Re: Face-to-face conversation problems > "CC" <calum3…@btopenworld.com> wrote in message > news:BAE9F311.10DB8%calum3103@btopenworld.com… >>> Hi, I am new here. I was wondering if any other SP’s (I haven’t >>> been diagnosed as such but I’ve known for a long time I have it) >>> have trouble when speaking face-to-face with people, specifically >>> taking in what they say. It seems like my mind blanks out or turns >>> into a jumble and so I don’t respond correctly, or ask "What?’ >>> (sometimes even more than once) so that I sometimes come off >>> looking like a space cadet. And many times, if I’m with someone, >>> but another person is directing the conversation at me, I’ll find out >>> later from the person I’m with that I missed much of what was >>> said ("You mean you didn’t hear what she said? She said it >>> right to you, maybe even more than once. And she also said…", >>> etc). >>> I can also be this way on the phone, but to a very much minor >>> extent, and only occasionally, while the F-T-F thing happens >>> almost constantly. I did not have this problem until I was about 15 >>> and had went through a lot of trauma having to do with some different >>> people, so I am guessing that’s where it started. >>> Anybody else have this? Or found a way to get rid of it or at least >>> reduce it? I’ve tried regular relaxtion exercises, meditation, and >>> physical/aerobic exercise, cognitive therapy (though only on my own), >>> regular therapy (counseling), but it seems like something that’s never >>> going to leave (it’s been almost 30 years now). >> Becoming aware of what exactly the >> thoughts are which are interfering with your ability to concentrate is the >> first step. > Hello CC, > How does one become aware of what exactly the thoughts are which are > interfering etc. ? > You are also assuming that this is what is going on. > My advice is to ask "justme" first if she is being flooded by thoughts > making concentration impossible. > Peter Nolan. > Dublin.
Peter, I’m sorry if this wasn’t clear. I’m not assuming anything about "justme". I simply stated that it is often the case that thoughts interfere with concentration, which is true. I then said that if "justme" feels that this is what might be going on then identifying, exploring and ultimately challenging the veracity of these sorts of thoughts, using some of the CT techniques they already know, is a way to tackle them. You’re right, identifying what the thoughts are can be tricky. There are a number of ways of doing this. One way is simply to be alert for situations when you feel a significant increase in your anxiety. When you notice this happening, or soon after, ask yourself "What was going through my mind just then? What was I thinking?". Initially this can be difficult, but many people find that as they become used to being vigilant in this way they become aware of many thoughts that might be triggering their anxiety. This works for most people but for those who find this difficult another way is simply to guess what the thoughts might be that are causing them problems. As you know people with SP are quite good at being reflective and often have a fairly good idea of some of the sorts of thoughts that might be going through their mind. It’s these thoughts that might be interfering with their performance. By guessing and writing a list of the thoughts, they can review the list and identify the ones that fit best with their experience. Brain Interrupted gives a good example of a theme that her thoughts are following when she experiences difficulty concentrating. She says she is "in the meeting dreading being asked what I think". On the basis of that she might speculate that some of her thoughts might be "If I get asked what I think I won’t know what to say. I’ll look so dumb in front of my colleagues. I’ll lose their respect and feel bad about myself" etc. What’s important is that on the basis of a vague indication of her thoughts, she can make some educated guesses and maybe come up with some of the thoughts that are problematic for her. Best Wishes CC
Response:
"CC" <calum3…@btopenworld.com> wrote in message
news:BAE9F311.10DB8%calum3103@btopenworld.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Hi, I am new here. I was wondering if any other SP’s (I haven’t > > been diagnosed as such but I’ve known for a long time I have it) > > have trouble when speaking face-to-face with people, specifically > > taking in what they say. It seems like my mind blanks out or turns > > into a jumble and so I don’t respond correctly, or ask "What?’ > > (sometimes even more than once) so that I sometimes come off > > looking like a space cadet. And many times, if I’m with someone, > > but another person is directing the conversation at me, I’ll find out > > later from the person I’m with that I missed much of what was > > said ("You mean you didn’t hear what she said? She said it > > right to you, maybe even more than once. And she also said…", > > etc). > > I can also be this way on the phone, but to a very much minor > > extent, and only occasionally, while the F-T-F thing happens > > almost constantly. I did not have this problem until I was about 15 > > and had went through a lot of trauma having to do with some different > > people, so I am guessing that’s where it started. > > Anybody else have this? Or found a way to get rid of it or at least > > reduce it? I’ve tried regular relaxtion exercises, meditation, and > > physical/aerobic exercise, cognitive therapy (though only on my own), > > regular therapy (counseling), but it seems like something that’s never > > going to leave (it’s been almost 30 years now). > Becoming aware of what exactly the > thoughts are which are interfering with your ability to concentrate is the > first step.
Hello CC, How does one become aware of what exactly the thoughts are which are interfering etc. ? You are also assuming that this is what is going on. My advice is to ask "justme" first if she is being flooded by thoughts making concentration impossible. Peter Nolan. Dublin.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Thu, 15 May 2003 18:24:57 -0500, justme <justme19851…@yahoo.com> wrote: >Hi, I am new here. I was wondering if any other SP’s (I haven’t >been diagnosed as such but I’ve known for a long time I have it) >have trouble when speaking face-to-face with people, specifically >taking in what they say. It seems like my mind blanks out or turns >into a jumble and so I don’t respond correctly, or ask "What?’ >(sometimes even more than once) so that I sometimes come off >looking like a space cadet. And many times, if I’m with someone, >but another person is directing the conversation at me, I’ll find out >later from the person I’m with that I missed much of what was >said ("You mean you didn’t hear what she said? She said it >right to you, maybe even more than once. And she also said…", >etc). >I can also be this way on the phone, but to a very much minor >extent, and only occasionally, while the F-T-F thing happens >almost constantly. I did not have this problem until I was about 15 >and had went through a lot of trauma having to do with some different >people, so I am guessing that’s where it started. >Anybody else have this? Or found a way to get rid of it or at least >reduce it? I’ve tried regular relaxtion exercises, meditation, and >physical/aerobic exercise, cognitive therapy (though only on my own), >regular therapy (counseling), but it seems like something that’s never >going to leave (it’s been almost 30 years now).
Yes I have this somewhat also. I really don’t know what it is. At work, at a meeting it seems like they are talking and I really don’t understand what they are saying. But I am also in the meeting dreading being asked for what I think about whatever the meeting is about. Or in a class another student would ask me a question and I had to ask them to repeat themselves several times as I couldn’t make out what they were saying. In interviews I will be asked how to do something technical and my mind just goes blank or I can describe something well and can’t remember the name of it or what it is called.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi, I am new here. I was wondering if any other SP’s (I haven’t > been diagnosed as such but I’ve known for a long time I have it) > have trouble when speaking face-to-face with people, specifically > taking in what they say. It seems like my mind blanks out or turns > into a jumble and so I don’t respond correctly, or ask "What?’ > (sometimes even more than once) so that I sometimes come off > looking like a space cadet. And many times, if I’m with someone, > but another person is directing the conversation at me, I’ll find out > later from the person I’m with that I missed much of what was > said ("You mean you didn’t hear what she said? She said it > right to you, maybe even more than once. And she also said…", > etc). > I can also be this way on the phone, but to a very much minor > extent, and only occasionally, while the F-T-F thing happens > almost constantly. I did not have this problem until I was about 15 > and had went through a lot of trauma having to do with some different > people, so I am guessing that’s where it started. > Anybody else have this? Or found a way to get rid of it or at least > reduce it? I’ve tried regular relaxtion exercises, meditation, and > physical/aerobic exercise, cognitive therapy (though only on my own), > regular therapy (counseling), but it seems like something that’s never > going to leave (it’s been almost 30 years now).
Often when this happens it is due to lots of thoughts about what might be going wrong during the interaction, interfering with the ability to concentrate. You say your mind "turns into a jumble" which is a pretty good description of how it feels at the time when thoughts like "She thinks I’m boring?", "I am blushing/shaking/stuttering. If she notices it I’ll die", "does she look like she thinks I’m acting weird?", "can I escape from this situation without it being too obvious?", "are other people looking at me?" are going on. It’s understandable that with all this traffic flowing through your head you might find it hard to concentrate on what the other person is saying. If you think this is what might be going on for you, though there is no quick fix to this, you can tackle it. Becoming aware of what exactly the thoughts are which are interfering with your ability to concentrate is the first step. Then using some of your CT techniques might help you explore these thoughts and test how true or realistic they are for you. Hope this helps CC
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