Question:
We were young and naive – neither of us knew if we wanted children before getting married. We knew we loved each other, (she was my high school sweetheart) but did not have it set in stone before marriage whether or not to have children, etc. At the time we were married, I was only 23 years old – I had started on my career track, and she had not. Both of us have college degrees. She is perfectly capable of becoming gainfully employed and/or having children, but she is timid and lacks incentive – she’s intelligent, but not the assertive type. It is difficult to ‘discover’ these things and work them out after marriage, thus the problem which currently faces us both now, and also what makes it difficult to be married at a young age. Either we will work it out or end it. Either way, I have learned one thing. PAIN IS INEVITABLY BOUND UP WITH LIFE ITSELF, no matter what course you decide to take. Unfortunately, I have always been one who has had to learn the hard way. When I get knocked down, I must get back up, dust myself off and take it like a man. If it ends in divorce, I can at least sleep at night knowing I have done my best. And tho’ I am not perfect, I have fulfilled my duty as a man, all along supporting us both and doing my part. ~McFly "Marie" <m…@here.com> wrote in message
news:ba7b5bb8856f44471d2408bc2cf6de1a@news.teranews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:31:04 GMT, "Mick Fly" <mc…@nowhere.com> > wrote: > >What if the woman was kind, considerate, caring, loving at home etc. but did > >not want kids and refused to get a job, while the husband worked a very > >stressful and shitty 60 hr-a week-job to keep the bills paid? My situation > >in a nutshell. My sense of dignity, humanity, and compassion toward her is > >vanishing quickly. > Did you discuss children and work before you were married? These seem > like pivotal issues. If a woman doesn’t want children, she doesn’t > want children. Did she only decide this after marriage? If so, > perhaps children aren’t the issue. If she knew beforehand, how come > you married her? She’d be having children for the wrong reasons if > it’s only to please you. And, as you’re working 60 hours a week, > she’d be the one caring for the infant – not to mention pregnancy, > hormonal changes, a dissatisfied husband, etc. This doesn’t sound > like a marriage that should entertain the idea of children. But what > puzzles me is that the most basic things, work and children, weren’t > discussed before marriage.
Response:
Okay Ilya. If you say so. I see you are studying religion too much. It has infected your ideas on love and relationships. Laife "Ilya Shambat" <ilya_sham…@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:63f8dcf3.0308251553.7d4e0bbc@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> There needs to be an incentive for men to treat their women right and > honor their dignity and humanity while they are in the relationship. > At the same time, there needs to be an incentive for women to stay > true to the promises they have made. > I propose the following standard for deciding divorces. > If the man was violent, possessive, abusive, chauvenistic and degraded > the woman, then the fault for the divorce is the man’s. > If the man was caring, loving and compassionate, then the fault for > the divorce is the woman’s.
Response:
In article <IDz2b.3542$l41.2388…@twister.neo.rr.com>, mc…@nowhere.com says… >What if the woman was kind, considerate, caring, loving at home etc. but did >not want kids and refused to get a job, while the husband worked a very >stressful and shitty 60 hr-a week-job to keep the bills paid? My situation >in a nutshell. My sense of dignity, humanity, and compassion toward her is >vanishing quickly.
My wife of 27 years refused to get a job. She worked a whole 2 months during our entire marriage. One month was the last time she wanted a separation a few years ago. She wasn’t considerate, wasn’t caring, and wasn’t very loving at home. When we got to where there was only one child left at home, I divorced her. What I think of her is better left unsaid. If we didn’t have any kids, the marriage would have ended 20 years ago.
Response:
In article <ba7b5bb8856f44471d2408bc2cf6d…@news.teranews.com>, m…@here.com says… >like a marriage that should entertain the idea of children. But what >puzzles me is that the most basic things, work and children, weren’t >discussed before marriage.
My ex refused to work during our entire marriage. Even when she was bitching at me for not being around more. She already was a single mother before we got married. (we were both 19). She still refuses to get a job 5 1/2 months after our divorce.
Response:
In article <bifrnj$8psm…@ID-198599.news.uni-berlin.de>, Kali <spamcatch…@lycos.com> writes >"Mick Fly" <mc…@nowhere.com> wrote in message >news:IDz2b.3542$l41.2388747@twister.neo.rr.com… >> What if the woman was kind, considerate, caring, loving at home etc. but >did >> not want kids and refused to get a job, while the husband worked a very >> stressful and shitty 60 hr-a week-job to keep the bills paid? My >situation >> in a nutshell. My sense of dignity, humanity, and compassion toward her >is >> vanishing quickly. >In that case the woman is actually not kind or considerate. She’s >downright evil. You are entirely justified to get a divorce if she >refuses any change and demands that you work so hard while she sits around >doing nothing.
Hi Mick, I wouldn’t endorse the ‘ev*l’ word quite so rapidly as Kali, not being an American! 
and, anyway, how could I then adequately describe charmers like Pol Pot or Eichmann if I did? But you, Mick, seem to be describing two utterly different women. She’s _either_ kind, considerate, plus all the other kind things you say, _or_ she’s an exploitative slug-like creature who’s battening onto you, thus making your life even more miserable than your job’s made you. She can’t be both. I remember reading somewhere something like ‘Those who do not work, neither should they eat.’ So how about this: — carry-on with that sh*tty 60hr-a-week job and keep the bills paid — salt-away your personal-possessions with good friends (so she couldn’t sell them, or worse) — re-direct personal mail that’s important to you — sleep elsewhere in the house — make sure that not a crumb of food or a penny of wages that you earn comes into the house — eat all your meals out Above all, don’t explain, apologise or tell her what you’re doing, let alone why — apart, maybe, from a simple: "Before, you didn’t help us, and now, I don’t help us, but I still want there to be an us. Will there be?". Perhaps, after a week seeing that you mean business, she may find that her OWN stomach will ’speak with marvellous organ’. Then you’d both would start _sharing_ things — both the things you need to work for, and the work needed to obtain them — followed by sharing the big direction-changing questions like: "Why will/won’t we ever have children?" (notice I say "us", never "you" or "me") Then there’d start to be an ‘us’ — if the answers to those questions don’t break you apart. Remember, actions (especially non-violent ones) speak far louder than words. And, right now, words seem to have run their course. ‘Erst kommt des Fressen, dann kommt die Moral.’ (Food comes first, then morals) — Bertolt Brecht ’Die Dreigroschenoper’ 1928 Pete Turk <P…@ragtag.demon.co.uk> ICQ# 11981084 RFA President and Moonshadow — May your doorstep ever be dirty. — Romany blessing
Response:
In article <I3naJIAlJ7U$E…@ragtag.demon.co.uk>, Pete Turk <P…@ragtag.demon.co.uk> writes > – make sure that not a crumb of food or a penny of > wages that you earn comes into the house
I should have said ‘make sure that not a crumb of food _that YOU’ve bought_ nor a penny of wages that you earn comes into the house’, Mick. i.e. not a word about food or money that anyone else might care to bring … And, as usual with posts of mine, the idea came ultimately from what someone else had already written: O beggar, you’ve made me a beggar, what more do you need? My mendicant, what’s this beseeching song you sing as you walk by? Every morning with riches new to please you was my heart’s desire, my mendicant! Alas, in a flash I placed all at your feet; nothing’s now left. O beggar, you’ve made me a beggar, what more do you need? With my own breast’s cloth-end I’ve clothed your nakedness. For your pleasure I’ve emptied my universe. My heart, my mind, my life’s springtime already lie in your cupped palms, my mendicant! Should you want more, give me something first; then can I hand it back. — Rabindranath Tagore 1897 ‘ Feed yourself and feed others. Then, if you have to say good-bye, it won’t matter. You will have shared love.’ — Jeanne Moreau Pete Turk <P…@ragtag.demon.co.uk> ICQ# 11981084 RFA President and Moonshadow — May your doorstep ever be dirty. — Romany blessing
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Or, what if the man is caring, loving and compassionate, so is the > > > woman, but then the man meets someone else and runs away with > > > her. Whose fault? > > > who says it has to be either, why not both it takes two to get married and > > usually both have a breakdown in communication so both are at fault. > > It happened with my first marriage, i thought we were communicating well > > turned out she wasn’t communicating her full needs to me, when i realised, > > it was too late she was already involved with someone else. Part of my > > problem was i didn’t see the little signs, but then again i’m no mindreader > All the great sex in the world is not going to make up for a lack of > communication. > It is little things that make as well as break a relationship. It is the > little things that matter most. > Most people look for the big things to be handled and if they are think > everything is going great. A deeper look would reveal there is more to > it than that. > BrendaLee >A deeper look i agree but it is something i’m not very good at, i have
never been able to see the little things, i’m always told when its to late, communication is a two way street, i’m no mind reader. Love and communication doesn’t work one way. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> ~~~~~~ > BrendaLee > RFA President – The Lady DreamCatcher > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.cocreator.com/ehmka/ > Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise > will, sooner or later, have to find time for illness. > —Edward Stanley, Earl of Derby, 1873
Response:
It depends. Did y’all discuss kids, work, etc before getting married? If not, why not? If so, who changed their mind? A lot of times people have different expectations of what their relationship will be like and, when it doesn’t turn out that way, they resent the other spouse. I feel like I’m in the opposite situation. My husband works, but has been on short time (12-30 hours a week). Until being laid off a week ago, I was working 60-70 hour weeks on third shift, as well as keeping house. I was really starting to resent having to keep everything straight at home, even though I worked more hours, just because I was home during the day, instead of the afternoon. Resenting this just made me mad, so I didn’t want to do housework at all, and it has made it hard for me to get motivated to find another job, because I don’t feel like he’s supporting me in it anymore. Some background: When I first got together with my husband, he told me it was OK if I wanted to work, and he’d even put me through school, so I wouldn’t have to work while studying. He also made it clear that he wanted children badly, as do I. The "problem" was that the economy where we live fell apart in the meantime, forcing me to quit school and try to find a job. now, he acts annoyed because all I can get are low-paying temp jobs, even though he originally told me I wouldn’t "have to" work (even though I wanted to work once I finished school). It also added to the problems that I got pregnant, and had a miscarriage (my 3rd) right after starting work in a factory, because he needed me to. He also started criticizing me for not keeping house as well or cooking as often as I did. I can see why it was necessary for me to work, but I felt both lied to and taken advantage of because of having to work, then losing the baby, and seemingly losing the "privilege " of being a housewife and not having to work, while having to keep the same standards (he’d agreed to split the housework 50/50, but doesn’t – he claims he’s too tired from work). Now, I’m not working, but I’m afraid to try for another child, and having trouble finding work because of depresssion/PTSD. This makes me even more depressed, and the last thing I want to do is hunt for jobs all day, then come home too cook, clean, and listen to complaints about why I’m not working yet, or why the house isn’t spotless. When you don’t feel like your husband (or wife) is supporting you, or it seems like all they care about is your cleaning/cooking, paycheck, or sexual availablity/childbearing, then it makes you want to do nothing, because you don’t feel like you’re worth doing anything, or will be recognized for it at all. Maybe this is what’s going on with her. — "Love thy neighbor as yourself, but choose your neighborhood." — Louise Beal
Response:
"BrendaLee" <eh…@rochester.rr.com> wrote in message
news:3F4D1F92.5F08D02B@rochester.rr.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Dave & Carol wrote: > > > > > Or, what if the man is caring, loving and compassionate, so is the > > > > > woman, but then the man meets someone else and runs away with > > > > > her. Whose fault? > > > > > who says it has to be either, why not both it takes two to get married > > and > > > > usually both have a breakdown in communication so both are at fault. > > > > It happened with my first marriage, i thought we were communicating > > well > > > > turned out she wasn’t communicating her full needs to me, when i > > realised, > > > > it was too late she was already involved with someone else. Part of my > > > > problem was i didn’t see the little signs, but then again i’m no > > mindreader > > > All the great sex in the world is not going to make up for a lack of > > > communication. > > > It is little things that make as well as break a relationship. It is the > > > little things that matter most. > > > Most people look for the big things to be handled and if they are think > > > everything is going great. A deeper look would reveal there is more to > > > it than that. > > > BrendaLee > > >A deeper look i agree but it is something i’m not very good at, i have > > never been able to see the little things, i’m always told when its to late, > > communication is a two way street, i’m no mind reader. Love and > > communication doesn’t work one way. > Exactly.. > You are not alone. Many are not good at the little things, hence the > state of marriage today. Many people have no idea that things are wrong > in their relationships until the blow up stage, which is oftentimes too > late. > Which is why I never waited to be told. I have always taken the > initiative and "asked".
Comes back to communication though, you cant satisfy someone if they dont communicate their feelings, when little things happen its good to talk them through, not wait for six months and bring up 10 or 20 lttile things which a person has forgotten. Biggerst problem with my first wife is she wouldn’t forgive and forget, every little argument we had she would bring up every thing we did wrong in our marriage. Anyways it was meant to be – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > BrendaLee > > > ~~~~~~ > > > BrendaLee > > > RFA President – The Lady DreamCatcher > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > http://www.cocreator.com/ehmka/ > > > Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise > > > will, sooner or later, have to find time for illness. > > > —Edward Stanley, Earl of Derby, 1873 > — > ~~~~~~ > BrendaLee > RFA President – The Lady DreamCatcher > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > http://www.cocreator.com/ehmka/ > Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise > will, sooner or later, have to find time for illness. > —Edward Stanley, Earl of Derby, 1873
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Dave & Carol wrote: > > > > Or, what if the man is caring, loving and compassionate, so is the > > > > woman, but then the man meets someone else and runs away with > > > > her. Whose fault? > > > > who says it has to be either, why not both it takes two to get married > and > > > usually both have a breakdown in communication so both are at fault. > > > It happened with my first marriage, i thought we were communicating > well > > > turned out she wasn’t communicating her full needs to me, when i > realised, > > > it was too late she was already involved with someone else. Part of my > > > problem was i didn’t see the little signs, but then again i’m no > mindreader > > All the great sex in the world is not going to make up for a lack of > > communication. > > It is little things that make as well as break a relationship. It is the > > little things that matter most. > > Most people look for the big things to be handled and if they are think > > everything is going great. A deeper look would reveal there is more to > > it than that. > > BrendaLee > >A deeper look i agree but it is something i’m not very good at, i have > never been able to see the little things, i’m always told when its to late, > communication is a two way street, i’m no mind reader. Love and > communication doesn’t work one way.
Exactly.. You are not alone. Many are not good at the little things, hence the state of marriage today. Many people have no idea that things are wrong in their relationships until the blow up stage, which is oftentimes too late. Which is why I never waited to be told. I have always taken the initiative and "asked". BrendaLee > > ~~~~~~ > > BrendaLee > > RFA President – The Lady DreamCatcher > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > http://www.cocreator.com/ehmka/ > > Those who think they have no time for bodily exercise > > will, sooner or later, have to find time for illness. > > —Edward Stanley, Earl of Derby, 1873
– ~~~~~~ BrendaLee RFA President
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