Question:
wow!… (more below) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [clip] Growing, learning from mistakes? Ha. The majority of survivors, it seems to me, have no room whatsoever within their minds, hearts, and souls to even begin to comprehend that there are indeed SOME survivors who DO learn, who DO try to deprogram dysfunctional behavior and attitudes, who DO the best damned job they can with the few limited tools they have to become a better person, to learn healthier ways of dealing with whatever issues, problems, and dysfunctions they have. Should they even try – publicly? Nuke City; the hords – on ALL sides – descend and do their damndest to rip them to shreds; bringing up the past and slinging it all over the landscape and targeting specific buttons and triggers intentionally. Learning from the past simply is Not Allowed; oh no – the past is there to be used as a weapon, as a tool for tearing down, denigrating, humiliating, and silencing others. VERY fucking few people I know here and in real life have the guts, courage, and just plain INTELLIGENCE to back off when an other survivor is bouncing off the walls and being dysfunctional; very few are willing to detach and simply watch, wait for the time that some basic common sense principles of recovery start to take hold in a dysfunctional survivor; very few are willing to then CONVERSE with such a survivor, share their own experiences, the tools used to overcome denial and dysfunctionality…
some do. :) thank you for those of you who did… you helped my mind stop feeling like scrambled eggs. Oh no – it’s far far easier to point fingers, blame, denigrate, attack, flame. THAT way, one doesn’t have to look inside themselves, do they? It’s a lot easier to take someone elses inventory than ones own, isn’t it? In the above example, I was triggering heavily; the ongoing acting out of abuse, abusive behavior and responses and abuse being exhibited and inflicted by the participants on each other in AAR – coupled with a lot of life stresses and other issues with which I’m dealing – all joined together to bring me to a point where I literally could not see nor think clearly;
gee, can’t imagine what that’s like ;) Many survivors go through a period where no one but no one is ever going to control them whatsoever; and during that time the perspective of the survivor is such that even a general observation by another is seen as controlling and/or an attemp to control – and the survivor lashes back, using the only methods they know; the ones they learned from their abusers.
exactamundo. overly developed sensitivity can add to this — sensitivity that did enable one to survive, that often does tell one truths but like a precocious but inept child can tell true truths with a wrong slant. Another tie-in is the general social concept of mental/emotional age. Socially, there is a general idea of age-appropriate behavior, and by implication, social skills and knowledge. As a general concept, it works pretty well; but it falls flat on its face in the survivor world. An example: In my own life, there was no chance for socialization of any kind from literally my toddler years all the way to the present. I did not have any adult figures in my life who could – or who were capable – of modeling socially acceptable behavior at any time in my life. …
me too! to a smaller but equally far-reaching extent The result was, as I’ve become aware of rather painfully recently, a total and complete naivity regarding interpersonal relationships; it lead directly to me escaping into an ultimately abusive marriage at eighteen for all the wrong reasons – and rebounding right out of that one into an equally abusive marriage. Even though I am physically 51 years old; emotionally I would have to place myself at, perhaps 13 years of age.
yes!!! exactly!!! only i’m 12, not 13. it’s funner to be 12 becuzz that’s before the adolescence crap I simply do not have the experential base on which to draw; because of that lack of experience and training – exposure – all of my life, I have no skills for dealing with new and different aspects of interpersonal relationships. That lack has had quite a few repercussions: I am a complete introvert; I do not like being around more than two or three people at the most at a time, and quite frankly prefer being totally alone. I can function around more, but unless I know the majority of them fairly well, I am incredibly uncomfortable, and end up feeling totally drained and sick.
yes. drained. that is how it feels. Another repercussion is that it leaves me wide open to not only being hurt, but to also hurting others by my lack of experience, knowledge, and naivity; and this has indeed happened on several different occasions. I have learned from each one, but it is hard learning such common-sense social skills 40 years after when I should have learned them; and it has definitely fed the old programming from my abusers that I am worthless, useless, too stupid to be of any good to any one – particularly when others are hurt by that lack on my part.
yes. EXACTLY. that is one of the things that me and my therp are addressing. one additional thing which i seem to draw is, while a healthful purpose for me has been in discerning and learning ***REALISTIC*** ways of relating to people, i seem to attract people determined to pull me into excessive, unrealistic idealism. several times in my life i have been in the process of learning the tools i desperately need to develop and cement social connections, when unfortunately some of the social connections i establish, turn around and start trying to convince me that i’m not being idealistic enough or that i don’t have to do what i’m doing, etc. i remember one group in which this happened. it was a "support" group and at first resembled a slice of heaven. everyone seemed especially compatable and warm and it was like there was magic in the room every time the group met. a group mythology grew in which people were encouraged to believe intensely in the group, to "feel their feelings" (this was in the late 80s), to be *very* dependent on one another, and actually coaxed not to try to solve their own problems (this was "denial") but to use their phone lists and call people in the group. my needs were different, but each time i spoke of them, i was gently counseled to get over my "denial" and that the group knew better than i. However, each time i tried to call someone in the group, i found i was speaking to a far more lukewarm and cautious voice who would act puzzled that i’d called, because surely the problem i was calling about was something i could solve myself. (they were right. i could have, and would have, except they convinced me i was not competent to do so. confusing in the extreme!) i later realized that during those magical nights when the group met, people were probably swept away by the common charisma, but in their homes afterward they were being real. i did not fully realize it until after being drawn in and then very painfully abandoned by those people, when the group fizzled. and there are … um … other similar instances. ;) perhaps it is because of a history of these kinds of experiences, or perhaps it’s just because i worked in a photographic darkroom so long, that i have a special delight in a poster i’ve seen: a picture of a mushroom and the caption, "I must be a mushroom… because they keep me in the dark and feed me bullshit!" Many of you have remarked in posts or email, on IRC and even on the phone that I seem wise, that I see the "bigger picture." Well, thank you for that – It leads me to one question for all of you that I will answer: Where do you think I learned it? Here. In AAR, in ASAR, in other newsgroups. In my al-anon meetings. In my relationship with Mou.
Exactly. there is something about this community… there is space and room to learn to walk. with a few exceptions, most people are here to learn, rather than to push their programs onto others. people *listen* here. All the concepts I listed above are ones I learned here, by watching what did work – and what did not.
Equal to equal (not professor to student or pastor to penitent or boy scout to little old lady). Yes. that’s the magic of this place. it honors the dignity of us all. ((((((( aar )))))))))) it’s good to be back. good to see the familiar nicks (and some new! welcome!) good to see peace reign. I learned by watching you.
and we learn from you. thank you for this post, ghostwolf. azure
Response:
Thought this should be in a separate thread… I had written, and Dragon responded:
<snipping In the above example, I was triggering heavily; the ongoing acting out of abuse, abusive behavior and responses and abuse being exhibited and inflicted by the participants on each other in AAR – coupled with a lot of life stresses and other issues with which I’m dealing – all joined together to bring me to a point where I literally could not see nor think clearly; I was in a state where my (inate?) cynicism was running full bore.
What happens before the cynicism kicks in? I don’t usually get cynical until after I had a *big need* that I couldn’t get met. (Which kicks off this helpless thing…which brings up anger…which kicks off some old bitterness…which kicks off the cynicism.) It’s an amazingly fast cycle for me. When I am in that state, sarcasm is the instinctive tool, and very little control – self-control remains. Most of the time there has been barely enough residual control such that I have not named names and/or pointed fingers in most cases – but even I have fallen prey to doing the direct public nailing as some of you well know.
I think we all have at one point & another. I certainly have. Right now is a good example…I get this delayed *exhaustion* over the flamewars. It’s like I start believing that things will chill out, and at the first sign of that not happening, it hits me. Tonight I decided that I would take sanctuary within threads that replenish me. That meet a need for my being here. So….that’s where I am. 
(It’s something new I’m trying…so, I’ll let you know whether it works for me or not – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – All it took was a major button being pushed when I was not at all prepared for it; and, as knowledgable (yeah, right?) as I am – all control, all rational thought went right out the window. In one recent case (the Contact thread), it took me two days to get regrounded – though in that particular case, the trigger – and resultant abreaction – actually helped me in the long run; I’m now able to look at the particular trigger, button, and underlying events – and separate the intense revulsion and dislike I feel at a clammy, limp handshake from the person. In other words; I can now separate the here-and-now person who has the clammy, limp hands from the abusers of 44 years ago. In two other cases, wherein I received rather – interesting – email, it took me literally months to even start getting regrounded; and I’m not there yet. These two events, fwiw, contributed to the example at the top of this post; contributed to the despair, pain, and cynicism I was feeling.
*nodding* – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – At the peak of the the first one, I was hurting so much that nothing made sense – as I asked in the "Triggers – and reception" article; "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state? How does it help you emerge from that state?" How did it feel for me – how does it feel for me? It re-awoke every demeaning statement made by my mother, stepfather, guardians, schoolmates, peers, and ex-wives. It gave those statements credence, believability; it reinforced them powerfully; so powerfully that I succumbed completely and believed I was worthless. I believed with all my being – that, even though I’d been living a fairly "normal" life with "normal" relationships – that my life was a total sham, a 51-year old deception of myself and all those who knew me; that I was worthless. useless, and fooling only myself. I believed, as a result of the verbal onslaught, that I was no better than my abusers and because of the life-long sham, no different than them; in other words – I saw myself, believed myself to be abusive as well. That conviction, combined with other factors going on at the time (anyone remember the sociopath thread?) resulted in total breakdown of my ability to reason, think things through – to simply think.
*thinking* I think this is why I don’t read/post when I’m feeling particularly vulnerable. I used to…but not anymore. As a result, I lashed out at several people in private email and private IRC sessions – hurting them deeply, and probably, permanently – JustLis, Susan, Windy, Kc, Kaitlyn – I know there are more; my mind is still swirling, and I apologize to those whom I’ve not acknowledged.
*nodding* I think this is because of your need for direct and honest communication. When I feel pushed, (which is a real clear indicator to me that I’m not feeling like I have control over myself), I vent with people who I think will understand that I’m *venting*. That even tho it may sound like I’m talking about someone else, if I stay with it long enough, it will work around to being about my stuff. It’s not a perfect solution because I feel like I’m talking badly about someone behind their back. And I have had things repeated that I’d said, and had to clean that up before. No rational control existed at all for me, other than the dysfunctional control induced by the full-bore sense of being completely worthless, the dysfunctional control that I exhibited as I tried to get people to forget me, forget I existed because I completely believed I am toxic, abusive. I’m still struggling with that.
I think we can all do toxic and abusive things. And if we let it be the pivotal place in our lives, then that’s how we’ll relate to people. I don’t see you doing that. It’s like Windy’s comment about monsters. We all have ‘em. I prefer to not try to keep my dark side locked behind doors. For me, so much of how I’ve healed has been about redefining myself. So you’ll see my monsters meshing with my angels. Sometimes my monsters are blown up out of social ignorances. Not knowing whether something is appropriate or not in normal situations but being ashamed of the feeling so much that I locked it away in a dark place. Things look different in the dark, you know. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That is the impact the verbal onslaught had on me while I was deeply triggered and continuing to trigger; each new attack kept me off balance, and drove me deeper and deeper into that self-destructive state of being. So to answer my second question: "How does it [getting slammed when triggered] help you emerge from that state? [the state of being in a triggered - and therefore irrational frame of mind]" It doesn’t. At least not for me, and not for anyone else I have ever known who was also subjected to the same. It made it worse, far worse; and one need only look at the newsgroup now to see it in action. With six years of being actively recovery-aware, six years of doing what I can to address my (myriad) dysfunctions and resolve them, six years of direct access to professionals and peers who know a hell of a lot more than I do, who have been teaching me, helping me – I went over the edge, triggered, abreacted, lashed out. What about those who have never had that kind of access? Who literally have never had a chance until here, in the group and IRC, to learn other ways, other methods, other ideas?
I imagine they’ll learn the same way you, I, and many others do. The hard way. I think it’s not a good idea to assume responsibility for each other on any level. Surviving and thriving is an individual choice. And I don’t know about you but I have worked my ass into the dirt in spite of what people around me did…because I wanted more. I knew that people could move on…so, I kept plugging away at it. It hasn’t been pretty…but it’s been fairly steady. (Altho for much of that, I had no way of knowing what direction I was going in.) Dragon responded to what I had written on 7/3: I too have observed this particular phenomenom. Disgusting as it is, I think I may have seen an aspect you didn’t. As noted above, I wasn’t exactly rational – which makes it rather difficult to see aspects other than those that are screaming in one’s face and gnawing the hell out of one’s rump (said wryly.)
*nodding* The factor that’s missing isn’t compassion, it’s control. One survivor goes off the rails, triggers another, who in turn triggers one of two more, and the next thing we know, we have a massive flame war on our hands – again!
*nodding* Agreed – observable fact here, in other newsgroups, in our homes, neighborhods – the world. And none of the people participating in it has enough control of themselves to *not* use the weapons you listed, because they have all been taught that control is an *external* factor, imposed by the abuser. Agreed again.
*nodding* That’s one of the reasons I feel strongly about not assuming any level of responsibility for anyone else here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – For many survivors, the only knowledge about personal interactions, social skills, and tools are the ones they learned from their abusers. This, combined with the denial of control imposed by their users has devastating consequences in most cases. The person has learned only dysfunctional, abusive ways of dealing with others. Additionally, what I call the pendulum effect comes into play strongly once a survivor is out of the original abusive environment: Having been controlled ruthlessly, and now facing the ability to control their own lives, many survivors swing – like a pendulum – to the far extreme; vowing that No One Will Ever Control
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Response:
I first had to learn how to relax ghostie …. really relax. Still doing that now and still have more recovery to do. But started it about 20 years ago at Sonoma State University Biofeedback Lab with Dr. Eleanor Criswell. I was very new with cancer and NDEs and dysfunctional psychology back then as well as being fresh outta my FIRST divorce (learning curve is flat at first but it usually picks up with people). So as I relaxed and learned my fight/flight/freeze issues with the biofeedback equipement (stuff would come to my mindseye and the GSR or the other equipment would go off showing me getting stressed up – hey – its a good clue). There was one night I was relaxing my shoulders on the hot water bottle doing the biofeedback interventions and as they let go – I could literally see who was riding my back, or who I was carring around and let that go – it takes two to tango ya know. So I move them – the trigger buttons by being aware of them in the first place – getting conscious and then not cooperating with the disease. After awhile the buttons all disappear and there is no need to move em. They dont exist anymore. All cried out, those brain biotoxins from held in grief. When people are hurt – they are afraid of getting hurt again – this is the basis for the triggers. So, if you can relax with the phonomena and like some Aikido Master or Kung Fu Rabbi, one just walks though it in balance. Where there is nothing inside to attract that stuff then it dont even show up. Its part of the splinter in the eye – the three fingers pointing back – what is out there – The Other – takes shape in a manner that sticks in your eye. If what is inside of you is peace – love – making the world or the phonmena a better place I am convinced God takes notice of this and your world is better cause of it. When what is inside of you is ugly, usery, deceitful like Condit or Bush then the person has heart attacks – rots of stinking thinkin disease like Reagan, cant sleep, gets sick and dies. Nancy Reagan is just coming to grips how sick her Republician Party is. Yet she has no clue as to understanding how malignant that is in society. She also prays to a God who fucks around and blows it all the time and wants to go to that kind of heaven/hell. She does this casue she fucks around, or did with Ronnie in doing the veto on stem cell research 20 years ago. Bush is a fucker and just fucks around. So we have what we have now and they did not vote for the guy. When Americans stop fucking around and vote, then we will do better. Its all in the cycles – the system theory. If it is not inside of you – what is outside will not be attracted to you. Clear eyes, straight tongue, no shame in your heart, walking in balance helps this to occure. sumbuddie got this far in his recovery and still more to do. :*) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Moi, I just move the trigger buttons elsewhere so that when they try to push on them – they dont get a response. I am very interested in how you achieve that, Alan… mind sharing that?
Response:
posted and e-mailed Have fun on your trip, GhostWolf, and don’t let the buggers get you down! More below:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this should be in a separate thread… I had written, and Dragon responded: [clip] Growing, learning from mistakes? Ha. The majority of survivors, it seems to me, have no room whatsoever within their minds, hearts, and souls to even begin to comprehend that there are indeed SOME survivors who DO learn, who DO try to deprogram dysfunctional behavior and attitudes, who DO the best damned job they can with the few limited tools they have to become a better person, to learn healthier ways of dealing with whatever issues, problems, and dysfunctions they have. Should they even try – publicly? Nuke City; the hords – on ALL sides – descend and do their damndest to rip them to shreds; bringing up the past and slinging it all over the landscape and targeting specific buttons and triggers intentionally. Learning from the past simply is Not Allowed; oh no – the past is there to be used as a weapon, as a tool for tearing down, denigrating, humiliating, and silencing others. VERY fucking few people I know here and in real life have the guts, courage, and just plain INTELLIGENCE to back off when an other survivor is bouncing off the walls and being dysfunctional; very few are willing to detach and simply watch, wait for the time that some basic common sense principles of recovery start to take hold in a dysfunctional survivor; very few are willing to then CONVERSE with such a survivor, share their own experiences, the tools used to overcome denial and dysfunctionality… Oh no – it’s far far easier to point fingers, blame, denigrate, attack, flame. THAT way, one doesn’t have to look inside themselves, do they? It’s a lot easier to take someone elses inventory than ones own, isn’t it? Some background here… The above is one example of which I spoke of in the "Triggers – and reception" post regarding triggering, flashbacks, and abreactions wherein I asked, and said: "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state? How does it help you emerge from that state? It is happening to Celeste, and others as well right now – (clip) Like me, for example. Over the years, I have indeed triggered massively; just as out of control…" In the above example, I was triggering heavily; the ongoing acting out of abuse, abusive behavior and responses and abuse being exhibited and inflicted by the participants on each other in AAR – coupled with a lot of life stresses and other issues with which I’m dealing – all joined together to bring me to a point where I literally could not see nor think clearly; I was in a state where my (inate?) cynicism was running full bore. When I am in that state, sarcasm is the instinctive tool, and very little control – self-control remains. Most of the time there has been barely enough residual control such that I have not named names and/or pointed fingers in most cases – but even I have fallen prey to doing the direct public nailing as some of you well know. All it took was a major button being pushed when I was not at all prepared for it; and, as knowledgable (yeah, right?) as I am – all control, all rational thought went right out the window. In one recent case (the Contact thread), it took me two days to get regrounded – though in that particular case, the trigger – and resultant abreaction – actually helped me in the long run; I’m now able to look at the particular trigger, button, and underlying events – and separate the intense revulsion and dislike I feel at a clammy, limp handshake from the person. In other words; I can now separate the here-and-now person who has the clammy, limp hands from the abusers of 44 years ago. In two other cases, wherein I received rather – interesting – email, it took me literally months to even start getting regrounded; and I’m not there yet. These two events, fwiw, contributed to the example at the top of this post; contributed to the despair, pain, and cynicism I was feeling. At the peak of the the first one, I was hurting so much that nothing made sense – as I asked in the "Triggers – and reception" article; "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state? How does it help you emerge from that state?" How did it feel for me – how does it feel for me? It re-awoke every demeaning statement made by my mother, stepfather, guardians, schoolmates, peers, and ex-wives. It gave those statements credence, believability; it reinforced them powerfully; so powerfully that I succumbed completely and believed I was worthless. I believed with all my being – that, even though I’d been living a fairly "normal" life with "normal" relationships – that my life was a total sham, a 51-year old deception of myself and all those who knew me; that I was worthless. useless, and fooling only myself. I believed, as a result of the verbal onslaught, that I was no better than my abusers and because of the life-long sham, no different than them; in other words – I saw myself, believed myself to be abusive as well.
There is nothing quite as destructive as finding ourselves knocked all the way back to the very beginning of recovery, is there? It’s scary as hell to think you can lose that much ground, especially that suddenly and it does make it all seem like a sham. But it’s not. And when we get out of that mode, fortunately, we realize that. How hard we have to work to find our way back often depends on how long we’re been stuck there. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – That conviction, combined with other factors going on at the time (anyone remember the sociopath thread?) resulted in total breakdown of my ability to reason, think things through – to simply think. As a result, I lashed out at several people in private email and private IRC sessions – hurting them deeply, and probably, permanently – JustLis, Susan, Windy, Kc, Kaitlyn – I know there are more; my mind is still swirling, and I apologize to those whom I’ve not acknowledged. No rational control existed at all for me, other than the dysfunctional control induced by the full-bore sense of being completely worthless, the dysfunctional control that I exhibited as I tried to get people to forget me, forget I existed because I completely believed I am toxic, abusive. I’m still struggling with that.
You know, it occured to me as I was reading this, that there are probably very few people in the world who can truthfully say that they have *never* been abusive. In the throws of anger, even some so-called "normal" people are abusive. Most people do things they regret at one time or another, especially when they are angry. Being more prone to anger than most, and closer to my rage, I am all too aware of that. The trick is to learn from it, and not keep repeating the same mistakes over and over. That is the impact the verbal onslaught had on me while I was deeply triggered and continuing to trigger; each new attack kept me off balance, and drove me deeper and deeper into that self-destructive state of being.
((((((((((((((((Ghostwolf)))))))))))))))))) So to answer my second question: "How does it [getting slammed when triggered] help you emerge from that state? [the state of being in a triggered - and therefore irrational frame of mind]" It doesn’t. At least not for me, and not for anyone else I have ever known who was also subjected to the same. It made it worse, far worse; and one need only look at the newsgroup now to see it in action.
Repeatedly. With six years of being actively recovery-aware, six years of doing what I can to address my (myriad) dysfunctions and resolve them, six years of direct access to professionals and peers who know a hell of a lot more than I do, who have been teaching me, helping me – I went over the edge, triggered, abreacted, lashed out. What about those who have never had that kind of access? Who literally have never had a chance until here, in the group and IRC, to learn other ways, other methods, other ideas?
They probably aren’t learning much from what’s been going on lately. :( – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Dragon responded to what I had written on 7/3: I too have observed this particular phenomenom. Disgusting as it is, I think I may have seen an aspect you didn’t. As noted above, I wasn’t exactly rational – which makes it rather difficult to see aspects other than those that are screaming in one’s face and gnawing the hell out of one’s rump (said wryly.) The factor that’s missing isn’t compassion, it’s control. One survivor goes off the rails, triggers another, who in turn triggers one of two more, and the next thing we know, we have a massive flame war on our hands – again! Agreed – observable fact here, in other newsgroups, in our homes, neighborhods – the world.
Yes. What, after all, is aar but a microcosm of
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Response:
hey ghost, not sure how much of this i’mgonna go thru piece by piece, and i know you already know pretty much anything i can share with you– but, this connected with me on a personal level,and i thought this as a — faq for survivors before they started in a group or something would almost be a godsend to many a therp/survivor– so, i’m gonna go thru and make comments anyway 
) benefit, or just, thoughts, or just care, as it comes up/thru- – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this should be in a separate thread… I had written, and Dragon responded: [clip] Growing, learning from mistakes? Ha. The majority of survivors, it seems to me, have no room whatsoever within their minds, hearts, and souls to even begin to comprehend that there are indeed SOME survivors who DO learn, who DO try to deprogram dysfunctional behavior and attitudes, who DO the best damned job they can with the few limited tools they have to become a better person, to learn healthier ways of dealing with whatever issues, problems, and dysfunctions they have. Should they even try – publicly? Nuke City; the hords – on ALL sides – descend and do their damndest to rip them to shreds; bringing up the past and slinging it all over the landscape and targeting specific buttons and triggers intentionally.
in some ways, i think this is because our first attempts at "improving" are not successful, and so, in being– only limited improvements over our previous reactions or responses– they are still not "good enough" and bear the full wrath of being "totally wrong" even if better then before. Unfortunately, the survivor making the improvements, or "baby steps" to the goal of non-dysfunction, almost wants to give up in dispair– this was their best shot– the best they could at improving, and still, not good enough– why bother? Instant success is not the reality of ourselves or our world or our growth– no matter how much we think, "this time we’ll get it right", it is still a reaction, and limited by our knowledge of the circumstance, and our *previous exprerience in like circumstance– and with like patterns. I look at myself with trust, and i dont know how to trust, partially– still have a hard time doing a partial shade of gray between the all or nothing black and white– and i set myself up for abuse in my life, by my past trust of the abusers– and i still feel like i almost have no choice cuz i *dont know how* to do something less– something part way– in that area, if i trust you, i trust you– and in my life i have felt like i had the choice of trusting all and being a victim, or trusting no one, and being the walking island/dead– still trying to figure out how to reach a middle ground here, trying to find someone who can teach me this too, got a new therp, but wont be able to deal with this til life is more stable. anyway– it is hard to keep trying, when the failures hurt so damn bad, and set us up to be abused again. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Learning from the past simply is Not Allowed; oh no – the past is there to be used as a weapon, as a tool for tearing down, denigrating, humiliating, and silencing others. VERY fucking few people I know here and in real life have the guts, courage, and just plain INTELLIGENCE to back off when an other survivor is bouncing off the walls and being dysfunctional; very few are willing to detach and simply watch, wait for the time that some basic common sense principles of recovery start to take hold in a dysfunctional survivor; very few are willing to then CONVERSE with such a survivor, share their own experiences, the tools used to overcome denial and dysfunctionality… Oh no – it’s far far easier to point fingers, blame, denigrate, attack, flame.
( why? what does seeing someone "bouncing off the walls" trigger in them, that makes them want to do that? in me, it triggers compassion, i feel sad, sorry, helpless pain at watching someone in pain– so the need to cause pain by blame makes no sense to me ghost, what is the need to put it down? what is the need to denigrate? what causes that need? THAT way, one doesn’t have to look inside themselves, do they? It’s a lot easier to take someone elses inventory than ones own, isn’t it?
they dont have to take their own inventory to have compassion for gods sake. to notice pain and say "wow, i’m sorry. your hurting" "you must have been hurt badly"– "you didn’t deserve that"–"what is going on" is it that they see themselves in the bouncing off the walls triggered individual, and if they put that person down, what? that distances them? i dont get it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some background here… The above is one example of which I spoke of in the "Triggers – and reception" post regarding triggering, flashbacks, and abreactions wherein I asked, and said: "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state? How does it help you emerge from that state? It is happening to Celeste, and others as well right now – (clip) Like me, for example. Over the years, I have indeed triggered massively; just as out of control…" In the above example, I was triggering heavily; the ongoing acting out of abuse, abusive behavior and responses and abuse being exhibited and inflicted by the participants on each other in AAR – coupled with a lot of life stresses and other issues with which I’m dealing – all joined together to bring me to a point where I literally could not see nor think clearly; I was in a state where my (inate?) cynicism was running full bore. When I am in that state, sarcasm is the instinctive tool, and very little control – self-control remains. Most of the time there has been barely enough residual control such that I have not named names and/or pointed fingers in most cases – but even I have fallen prey to doing the direct public nailing as some of you well know. All it took was a major button being pushed when I was not at all prepared for it; and, as knowledgable (yeah, right?) as I am – all control, all rational thought went right out the window.
( (((((((((((((((ghost))))))))))))))))) In one recent case (the Contact thread), it took me two days to get regrounded – though in that particular case, the trigger – and resultant abreaction – actually helped me in the long run; I’m now able to look at the particular trigger, button, and underlying events – and separate the intense revulsion and dislike I feel at a clammy, limp handshake from the person. In other words; I can now separate the here-and-now person who has the clammy, limp hands from the abusers of 44 years ago.
progress. any form, progress. cool– sorry for the trigger it took to do it, but progress ) ….. proud of ya. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In two other cases, wherein I received rather – interesting – email, it took me literally months to even start getting regrounded; and I’m not there yet. These two events, fwiw, contributed to the example at the top of this post; contributed to the despair, pain, and cynicism I was feeling. At the peak of the the first one, I was hurting so much that nothing made sense – as I asked in the "Triggers – and reception" article; "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state?
:*( when this happens, i dont think i undetrstand why– to me, it is an act of abuse at that moment it is someone– hitting me when i am down, or "laughing at my tears" so to speak– there are two real life things i relate to that,deeply– the laughing at my tears, which literally has still shut down my abilty to process emotions normally– i literally quit crying by the time ii was 10 and didn’t cry again until after i was raped at 27– and then it took several years of therapy, i still dont cry normally– can’t. i smile the whole time, or laugh– and can eek out a tear or two. once in awhile, during this last few days,i have actually sobbed– which is in a way huge progress– i did that when i was alone, still it is progress, and i certainly dont do it or can’t do it long– then the ability to cry is again gone, even if i *wnt* to cry, or the *need* is there, but, having really sobbed over the last few days, was a breakthru of sorts– it was *real* crying, without smiling at the same time– (ie, hiding the tears or holding them back behind smiles and laughter so no one can see/know even tho/if i am alone) the other incident i was in the hospital i had been in a car accident, i was 18, my parents had left the state to go see friends for thanksgiving, and so i was driving to a friends house out of state to see him for thanksgiving– i had hit black ice, taken out a guard rail over a bridge along with 6 telephone type poles that held that rail, and in the process broke my pelvis in 6 places. they finally got ahold of my father, i was dazed still they handed me the phone, my fathers voice, he was furious, and screaming, he yelled "YOU BITCH! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO RUIN MY VACATION!"– those were his first words, not are you okay, nothing but you bitch, how dare you– and i swent into reaction immediately– they were similar to his words when he had raped me for one of the first times and i didnt please him or did … read more »
Response:
Very well said, Alan; thank you. Control issues are part of the disease, so are triggers and states of mind curious enough. Controlling other people like our parent objects sought to control us with lies, force, alcholic thinking and con games instead of honesty and respect. Triggers are part of that PTSD stuff to show you the "opportunities" you have for pulling the splinter outta your own eye, this part is neat if you can get on the playfull side of it.
Precisely. Triggers and buttons say more about the person triggered than they do the person triggering . It’s a huge heads-up that there is something unresolved lurking just beneath the surface; something not addressed, not looked at for whatever reason; and as such, a true opportunity to take another step in healing. This is not to say that the triggering mechanism, however, is benign; sometimes it is – like the one that got me earlier this week (Contact) – Other times, it is definitely not benign, such as the all-too-obvious attacks, slams, etc. that are so pervasive on the group. Conversely, some of those are the results of unprocessed triggers on the part of the slammers too – like you said, part of the disease (wry grin), part of the controlling other people as you said. And that takes a state of mind to do that.
Indeed. True control is the ability to control ones impulses, ones own disease (or dysfunctions, for those who twig at the disease model) – without attempting to impose that control on others. The bottom line fact that one can truly change only one’s self for the better. No amount of harranging, barraging, name-calling, etc. will get someone else to change for the better. Period. Even though your body has all these triggers and stuff in it.
Oy vey – oh yes… Moi, I just move the trigger buttons elsewhere so that when they try to push on them – they dont get a response.
I am very interested in how you achieve that, Alan… mind sharing that? The toothpick comes out clean. sumbuddie in da kitchen cookin.
Big Time, friend 8*) Thanks again for sharing 8*) Wolf
Response:
Control issues are part of the disease, so are triggers and states of mind curious enough. Controlling other people like our parent objects sought to control us with lies, force, alcholic thinking and con games instead of honesty and respect. Triggers are part of that PTSD stuff to show you the "opportunities" you have for pulling the splinter outta your own eye, this part is neat if you can get on the playfull side of it. And that takes a state of mind to do that. Even though your body has all these triggers and stuff in it. Moi, I just move the trigger buttons elsewhere so that when they try to push on them – they dont get a response. The toothpick comes out clean. sumbuddie in da kitchen cookin. :*) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Thought this should be in a separate thread… I had written, and Dragon responded: [clip] Growing, learning from mistakes? Ha. The majority of survivors, it seems to me, have no room whatsoever within their minds, hearts, and souls to even begin to comprehend that there are indeed SOME survivors who DO learn, who DO try to deprogram dysfunctional behavior and attitudes,
Response:
Thought this should be in a separate thread… I had written, and Dragon responded: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [clip] Growing, learning from mistakes? Ha. The majority of survivors, it seems to me, have no room whatsoever within their minds, hearts, and souls to even begin to comprehend that there are indeed SOME survivors who DO learn, who DO try to deprogram dysfunctional behavior and attitudes, who DO the best damned job they can with the few limited tools they have to become a better person, to learn healthier ways of dealing with whatever issues, problems, and dysfunctions they have. Should they even try – publicly? Nuke City; the hords – on ALL sides – descend and do their damndest to rip them to shreds; bringing up the past and slinging it all over the landscape and targeting specific buttons and triggers intentionally. Learning from the past simply is Not Allowed; oh no – the past is there to be used as a weapon, as a tool for tearing down, denigrating, humiliating, and silencing others. VERY fucking few people I know here and in real life have the guts, courage, and just plain INTELLIGENCE to back off when an other survivor is bouncing off the walls and being dysfunctional; very few are willing to detach and simply watch, wait for the time that some basic common sense principles of recovery start to take hold in a dysfunctional survivor; very few are willing to then CONVERSE with such a survivor, share their own experiences, the tools used to overcome denial and dysfunctionality… Oh no – it’s far far easier to point fingers, blame, denigrate, attack, flame. THAT way, one doesn’t have to look inside themselves, do they? It’s a lot easier to take someone elses inventory than ones own, isn’t it?
Some background here… The above is one example of which I spoke of in the "Triggers – and reception" post regarding triggering, flashbacks, and abreactions wherein I asked, and said: "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state? How does it help you emerge from that state? It is happening to Celeste, and others as well right now – (clip) Like me, for example. Over the years, I have indeed triggered massively; just as out of control…" In the above example, I was triggering heavily; the ongoing acting out of abuse, abusive behavior and responses and abuse being exhibited and inflicted by the participants on each other in AAR – coupled with a lot of life stresses and other issues with which I’m dealing – all joined together to bring me to a point where I literally could not see nor think clearly; I was in a state where my (inate?) cynicism was running full bore. When I am in that state, sarcasm is the instinctive tool, and very little control – self-control remains. Most of the time there has been barely enough residual control such that I have not named names and/or pointed fingers in most cases – but even I have fallen prey to doing the direct public nailing as some of you well know. All it took was a major button being pushed when I was not at all prepared for it; and, as knowledgable (yeah, right?) as I am – all control, all rational thought went right out the window. In one recent case (the Contact thread), it took me two days to get regrounded – though in that particular case, the trigger – and resultant abreaction – actually helped me in the long run; I’m now able to look at the particular trigger, button, and underlying events – and separate the intense revulsion and dislike I feel at a clammy, limp handshake from the person. In other words; I can now separate the here-and-now person who has the clammy, limp hands from the abusers of 44 years ago. In two other cases, wherein I received rather – interesting – email, it took me literally months to even start getting regrounded; and I’m not there yet. These two events, fwiw, contributed to the example at the top of this post; contributed to the despair, pain, and cynicism I was feeling. At the peak of the the first one, I was hurting so much that nothing made sense – as I asked in the "Triggers – and reception" article; "Question: When you (generic you) are triggered heavily, when you are in so much psychic pain and emotional turmoil that you can’t find a way out – How does it feel to get slammed for being in that state? How does it help you emerge from that state?" How did it feel for me – how does it feel for me? It re-awoke every demeaning statement made by my mother, stepfather, guardians, schoolmates, peers, and ex-wives. It gave those statements credence, believability; it reinforced them powerfully; so powerfully that I succumbed completely and believed I was worthless. I believed with all my being – that, even though I’d been living a fairly "normal" life with "normal" relationships – that my life was a total sham, a 51-year old deception of myself and all those who knew me; that I was worthless. useless, and fooling only myself. I believed, as a result of the verbal onslaught, that I was no better than my abusers and because of the life-long sham, no different than them; in other words – I saw myself, believed myself to be abusive as well. That conviction, combined with other factors going on at the time (anyone remember the sociopath thread?) resulted in total breakdown of my ability to reason, think things through – to simply think. As a result, I lashed out at several people in private email and private IRC sessions – hurting them deeply, and probably, permanently – JustLis, Susan, Windy, Kc, Kaitlyn – I know there are more; my mind is still swirling, and I apologize to those whom I’ve not acknowledged. No rational control existed at all for me, other than the dysfunctional control induced by the full-bore sense of being completely worthless, the dysfunctional control that I exhibited as I tried to get people to forget me, forget I existed because I completely believed I am toxic, abusive. I’m still struggling with that. That is the impact the verbal onslaught had on me while I was deeply triggered and continuing to trigger; each new attack kept me off balance, and drove me deeper and deeper into that self-destructive state of being. So to answer my second question: "How does it [getting slammed when triggered] help you emerge from that state? [the state of being in a triggered - and therefore irrational frame of mind]" It doesn’t. At least not for me, and not for anyone else I have ever known who was also subjected to the same. It made it worse, far worse; and one need only look at the newsgroup now to see it in action. With six years of being actively recovery-aware, six years of doing what I can to address my (myriad) dysfunctions and resolve them, six years of direct access to professionals and peers who know a hell of a lot more than I do, who have been teaching me, helping me – I went over the edge, triggered, abreacted, lashed out. What about those who have never had that kind of access? Who literally have never had a chance until here, in the group and IRC, to learn other ways, other methods, other ideas? Dragon responded to what I had written on 7/3: I too have observed this particular phenomenom. Disgusting as it is, I think I may have seen an aspect you didn’t.
As noted above, I wasn’t exactly rational – which makes it rather difficult to see aspects other than those that are screaming in one’s face and gnawing the hell out of one’s rump (said wryly.) The factor that’s missing isn’t compassion, it’s control. One survivor goes off the rails, triggers another, who in turn triggers one of two more, and the next thing we know, we have a massive flame war on our hands – again!
Agreed – observable fact here, in other newsgroups, in our homes, neighborhods – the world. And none of the people participating in it has enough control of themselves to *not* use the weapons you listed, because they have all been taught that control is an *external* factor, imposed by the abuser.
Agreed again. For many survivors, the only knowledge about personal interactions, social skills, and tools are the ones they learned from their abusers. This, combined with the denial of control imposed by their users has devastating consequences in most cases. The person has learned only dysfunctional, abusive ways of dealing with others. Additionally, what I call the pendulum effect comes into play strongly once a survivor is out of the original abusive environment: Having been controlled ruthlessly, and now facing the ability to control their own lives, many survivors swing – like a pendulum – to the far extreme; vowing that No One Will Ever Control Them Again (TM) (R). In general, a good vow – but one that is double-edged because the only methods of control they know are the very same ones they learned from their abusers – abusive methods. Many survivors go through a period where no one but no one is ever going to control them whatsoever; and during that time the perspective of the survivor is such that even a general observation by another is seen as controlling and/or an attemp to control – and the survivor lashes back, using the only methods they know; the ones they learned from their abusers. Given time and support, many of those survivors start unlearning the dysfunctional methodologies, perspectives, and skills – and start learning and replacing them with healthy methodologies. Conversely, others never learn, and fiercely defend their right to be in control of … read more »
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