Question:
Okay, so this is NOT ‘lurking’! So who cares? 
"Nancy" <ki…@cox.net> wrote in message
news:NvDq9.127158$IL6.6531349@news2.east.cox.net… > Hi Wes! > > But I *DID* post something I should not have. For that, I apologize to > > the Group. I truly did not intend to offend anyone … (snip) > Firstly, thank you for explaining why I couldn’t follow your thinking. > Distorted thinking from ‘no meds when we need them’ is one of our
symptoms. :/ Wow. I finally succeeded at SOME explaining, at any rate! Just couldn’t do that last week, though. > Secondly, I am not certain about the ’should not have’ part. One of the > reasons we have groups for PTSD treatment is so that we can better/more > easily ’see’ who we are and have been. I do think that your rambling was a > ‘gift’ to me of how difficult it is for me to see my own symptoms and how > easy it is for someone else to see my symptoms _in all their glory_. Your > posts have reminded me how easily I can become confused myself.
Part of my difficulty since 92, Nancy, is that I’m **AFRAID** to see who I am or where I’ve been! For me, everything about Nam was bottled up & deeply buried until that July week in 92. *I* was in control of myself for all those years; at least, that’s what I firmly believed. Yes, there were a few ‘episodes’ before 92 where I lost it, but not like that one week. The previous ones were relatively unrelated incidents involving different people in my life, and during a time in my life when I truly felt as if I knew where I was going and how I was going to get there. I just called those incidents ‘blackout rage’, for lack of a better term, since every single time they occurred because someone actively provoked me into some kind of action. And no, I have no memory of parts of those incidents because I truly lost control of my SELF to such a degree that, as my mother once told me, I turned into ’some kind of animal’, and not truly human. Ergo, no memory of what I actually did to them. Another part is my inability to recall sequential events during that 11-month tour in Nam. They’re nearly all like ’snap shots’ now, just a snippet of imagery, sound, touch, etc., that frequently break into my thoughts and/or dreams. Most of them I thought of as inconsequential, because of course I survived Nam and got to come home. Yet in 98, that young VA psychologist succeeded at getting me to truly LOOK at a few of those snap shots in a different light. What I saw at that time was *I* had never been ‘in control’ of me at all, that there was some part of me who would not relinquish control to me when certain things happened, like having a VC rocket thud into the sand less than 10 yards away, only to turn out to be a dud which didn’t explode. At the time that this happened, I honestly (as I can remember it) felt no fear, no shock, nothing that would indicate (to me at that time) that I had been in any real danger. My "memory" of that event also carried no fear, shock or other adverse feeling prior to 92 & the flashbacks. When he made me REALLY remember it, though – God, was I one scared little pissant!! At that range, had the VC rocket exploded its shrapnel effect would literally have chopped me in half near my waistline. But I had never been able to FEEL that fear until that day in 98 in his office. I could not deal with it, even then. I can’t ‘deal’ with it to this day, at least not in the sense of ‘facing it’ and accepting it. What am I supposed to do with this? Hell if I know. So I just try to keep it buried to keep myself safe – and relatively sane. And no, there’s no indication that I suffer from multiple personality disorder. I’ve read other posts here about those who felt ‘dissociative’ during certain times, as though watching themselves from outside their own body, yet being able to do nothing to influence what their body was doing. My symptom, at least in this regard, is not like that. If my demon takes over, my conscious mind simply stops recording whatever is happening until the demon is at least partly sated and LETS me start to record again. For instance, I *do* remember the last minute or so of the episode with my dad in 72. Yet I was thoroughly confused (at that time) as to how he & I had gotten from the living room of mom’s house out onto the porch with him lying in the grass on his back a few feet from the porch. Only later did I learn that I had THROWN him more than a dozen feet through the air inside the house, then literally hauled him outside like a sack of potatoes and tossed him out into the yard. The entire episode lasted less than 5 minutes, but I can only recall that last minute or so just before he got into his car to leave. And what apparently provoked me was the fact that dad took a punch at my face in the living room, simply because he ‘wanted’ to fight me, for no reason. Just to see who could fight better. (Yes, he was drunk. And no, I didn’t want to fight him.) The most pertinent fact about this & the other episodes of my ‘blackout rage’ are that every single one of them took place *AFTER* I had served that tour in Nam, not before. The few ‘fights’ I had with dad prior to joining the service are all quite clear in my memory, even the pain in my hand from striking his face once. It may sound like a cliche`, but I truly came back from Nam totally different than the young man who enlisted. I no longer truly know who I am, but I’ve been given enough hints to know that I probably don’t want to know me, either. And I can’t talk about this any longer right now. Maybe later. > ——————–SNIP———————
Wes…
Response:
"Wesley C. Martin" <wcmar…@sirinet.net> wrote in message news:uqm71esafboo3c@corp.supernews.com… Hi, Wes. I’m going to snip a lot out, to focus on a few things you said. > Part of my difficulty since 92, Nancy, is that I’m **AFRAID** to see who > I am or where I’ve been! For me, everything about Nam was bottled up & > deeply buried until that July week in 92. *I* was in control of myself for > all those years; at least, that’s what I firmly believed.
Do you now see the amount of effort it required to retain the illusion of control? Or was it completely subconscious? >What I saw at that time was *I* had never been > ‘in control’ of me at all, that there was some part of me who would not > relinquish control to me when certain things happened
You wouldn’t face it until then? > But I had never been able to FEEL that fear until that day in 98 in his > office. I could not deal with it, even then. I can’t ‘deal’ with it to this > day, at least not in the sense of ‘facing it’ and accepting it. What am I > supposed to do with this? Hell if I know. So I just try to keep it buried to > keep myself safe – and relatively sane.
Have you heard of EMDR? It seems, on the face of it, to be ideal for this situation, because you have the triggering memory accessible to you. I have found immense relief through EMDR. > And no, there’s no indication that I suffer from multiple personality > disorder. I’ve read other posts here about those who felt ‘dissociative’ > during certain times, as though watching themselves from outside their own > body, yet being able to do nothing to influence what their body was doing.
Please forgive the semantic comment, but this is depersonalization that you are describing. > My symptom, at least in this regard, is not like that. If my demon takes > over, my conscious mind simply stops recording whatever is happening until > the demon is at least partly sated and LETS me start to record again.
This is dissociation. > The most pertinent fact about this & the other episodes of my ‘blackout > rage’ are that every single one of them took place *AFTER* I had served that > tour in Nam, not before.
This is quite typical, due to changes wrought by PTSD. You have so much stored emotional energy, you overwhelm your ability to comprehend. So, you simply don’t (comprehend). Wes, I’m not going to patronize you by suggesting I know how you feel, but I empathize with you. Change is impossible until the pain of staying the same exceeds the pain of change. What I hear you saying is that you’re ready to change, if only you knew how. But I think you really do know how. These memories (with feelings) have touched the edge of your consciousness because you permitted them to come to you. You’re preparing yourself, but right now, it’s a lot like you’re sticking your toe into the cold lake, not sure if you’re ready to dive in for that swim you long for. You know what awaits you, but there’s a threshold that must be crossed. That’s why you’re talking about it. You’re gaining clarity, and you will decide to go ahead. We’ll be here. Lar
Response:
trigger warning! I hope I’m doing this right, how to warn people because I don’t want anyone to read this that it could hurt. I hope you guys don’t mind if I tack on here…….because this stuff you’re talking about is the closest to what happens/happened to me too. And I can’t reach parts of me to this day either……… The earliest memory I’ve been able to access is the mother trying to drown me in the bathtub at around 2 to 3 years old. Then I have memories of her chasing us with knives, constantly saying tonight was the night she would kill us, my younger sister and me. But as one of you said, I can’t put them in any special ‘order’ as they are only flashes of memories…….the only way I can even guess at a time frame is by how tall I was as the particular memory comes back to me…….whether as I’m looking up at her I see her knees or thighs………..stuff like that……….but I always see the shiney knife with the wooden handle……. But then I reach a place of very few memories at all……..except for snippets……..and that part lasts until I was married and out of the house for at least five years or so. Other than the births of my children…….the early years of my marriage are like a blurr…….tiny fragments of memories…….no more. And most really traumatic events I only have memories of the very beginning and then nothing. I’ll describe one and if anybody can tell me what happened I’d appreciate it, cause I’ve always ‘wondered where I went’ and why I can’t actually remember it even now, when supposedly it’s over and I’m safe and all…….. I was 14 at the time…………..and quite used to ‘being used’ …..so when I was with a guy I would just ‘float away’……..but I’d never actually had sex at this stage of my life with anyone. So anyway, I was with this guy I knew quite well………..and floating outside the car, up in the stars……..floating very peacefully totally away from my body, when suddenly something caused me to zap right back inside that car and back into my body………I don’t know exactly ‘what’ it was………I just zapped back and realized I couldn’t move, my legs were pinned down and my one arm was sort of wedged behind his back and my other wrist was clamped tightly by his hand. At first I struggled to get free……..tried to move my legs, pulled on my arms……..but I couldn’t move anything……then I began crying……..please let me go……please let me go…….please let me go………crying and pleading………and pulling the whole while…..but he was like a machine……….there was no feeling in his face…….he was just like a robot or machine………the very last thing I remember is him forcing himself inside me…..and then it was like my mind exploded into many pieces……..I remember almost seeing the bright lights of an explosion and hearing a loud sound in my mind………it’s the only way I can describe it as a memory…….my mind exploded………. Then I have no memories at all………..nothing………just a blankness……..the next memory I have is of my teeth hurting me so badly……..my teeth hurt……..I didn’t have any other thought, not who I was, where I was……nothing…….just the pain of my teeth hurting…………and it took awhile before realizing the rest of my body was shaking too, uncontrollably shaking…….but the only part of my body I felt was my teeth chattering together so hard they hurt………..then I remember having to think really hard to breathe……….as if I didn’t consciously ‘tell myself to breathe in and out…….I wouldn’t…….it’s all I remember…….thinking breathe, breathe…….breathe……..and after awhile I heard a sound……it took me awhile to realize it was a voice………but it was as if it was speaking in a foreign language…….I couldn’t understand words……..I could only ‘hear sound’……….and then after another while I gradually began to understand words……but they sounded far off………far off in the distance……….I remember hearing him say…….put your clothes on……..put your clothes on……but I couldn’t move……..no matter how hard I tried I couldn’t move any part of my body……….anyway……that’s how it was…….every ’sense’ I had seemed to come back to me one at a time………and to this day I can’t remember anything that happened between the first ‘feeling of being unable to move’ the penetration……..and then my teeth hurting. The whole middle part is gone……..and I’ve always wondered why even now after years of therapy, nothing in that middle part has ever come back to me……. I asked my therapist about the EMDR……he does do it, but he said he didn’t think I would be a good candidate for it…….that some people it worked very well on…….but that he thought it might make me a lot worse than I already am. And after that I have hardly no memories at all until I was married probably at least five years……..there are a couple there, memories I mean……….but very fragmented……..and only really bad ones……..no good or positive memories what so ever. td
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Subject: Re: Why I can’t >From: "tiny dancer" tinydancer…@nospamhotmail.com >Date: 10/14/2002 3:45 PM Central Daylight Time >Message-id: <M1Gq9.21393$VQ.759…@twister.southeast.rr.com> >trigger warning! >I hope I’m doing this right, how to warn people because I don’t want anyone >to read this that it could hurt. >I hope you guys don’t mind if I tack on here…….because this stuff you’re >talking about is the closest to what happens/happened to me too. And I >can’t reach parts of me to this day either……… >The earliest memory I’ve been able to access is the mother trying to drown >me in the bathtub at around 2 to 3 years old. Then I have memories of her >chasing us with knives, constantly saying tonight was the night she would >kill us, my younger sister and me. But as one of you said, I can’t put them >in any special ‘order’ as they are only flashes of memories…….the only >way I can even guess at a time frame is by how tall I was as the particular >memory comes back to me…….whether as I’m looking up at her I see her >knees or thighs………..stuff like that……….but I always see the >shiney knife with the wooden handle……. >But then I reach a place of very few memories at all……..except for >snippets……..and that part lasts until I was married and out of the house >for at least five years or so. Other than the births of my >children…….the early years of my marriage are like a blurr…….tiny >fragments of memories…….no more. And most really traumatic events I >only have memories of the very beginning and then nothing. >I’ll describe one and if anybody can tell me what happened I’d appreciate >it, cause I’ve always ‘wondered where I went’ and why I can’t actually >remember it even now, when supposedly it’s over and I’m safe and all…….. >I was 14 at the time…………..and quite used to ‘being used’ …..so >when I was with a guy I would just ‘float away’……..but I’d never >actually had sex at this stage of my life with anyone. So anyway, I was >with this guy I knew quite well………..and floating outside the car, up >in the stars……..floating very peacefully totally away from my body, when >suddenly something caused me to zap right back inside that car and back into >my body………I don’t know exactly ‘what’ it was………I just zapped >back and realized I couldn’t move, my legs were pinned down and my one arm >was sort of wedged behind his back and my other wrist was clamped tightly by >his hand. >At first I struggled to get free……..tried to move my legs, pulled on my >arms……..but I couldn’t move anything……then I began >crying……..please let me go……please let me go…….please let me >go………crying and pleading………and pulling the whole while…..but >he was like a machine……….there was no feeling in his face…….he was >just like a robot or machine………the very last thing I remember is him >forcing himself inside me…..and then it was like my mind exploded into >many pieces……..I remember almost seeing the bright lights of an >explosion and hearing a loud sound in my mind………it’s the only way I >can describe it as a memory…….my mind exploded………. >Then I have no memories at all………..nothing………just a >blankness……..the next memory I have is of my teeth hurting me so >badly……..my teeth hurt……..I didn’t have any other thought, not who I >was, where I was……nothing…….just the pain of my teeth >hurting…………and it took awhile before realizing the rest of my body >was shaking too, uncontrollably shaking…….but the only part of my body I >felt was my teeth chattering together so hard they hurt………..then I >remember having to think really hard to breathe……….as if I didn’t >consciously ‘tell myself to breathe in and out…….I wouldn’t…….it’s >all I remember…….thinking breathe, breathe…….breathe……..and >after awhile I heard a sound……it took me awhile to realize it was a >voice………but it was as if it was speaking in a foreign language…….I >couldn’t understand words……..I could only ‘hear sound’……….and then >after another while I gradually began to understand words……but they >sounded far off………far off in the distance……….I remember hearing >him say…….put your clothes on……..put your clothes on……but I >couldn’t move……..no matter how hard I tried I couldn’t move any part of >my body……….anyway……that’s how it was…….every ’sense’ I had >seemed to come back to me one at a time………and to this day I can’t >remember anything that happened between the first ‘feeling of being unable >to move’ the penetration……..and then my teeth hurting. The whole >middle part is gone……..and I’ve always wondered why even now after years >of therapy, nothing in that middle part has ever come back to me……. >I asked my therapist about the EMDR……he does do it, but he said he >didn’t think I would be a good candidate for it…….that some people it >worked very well on…….but that he thought it might make me a lot worse >than I already am. >And after that I have hardly no memories at all until I was married probably >at least five years……..there are a couple there, memories I >mean……….but very fragmented……..and only really bad ones……..no >good or positive memories what so ever. >td
Hi Tiny, I had the same experience with the teeth, with the voice and with another voice — a beautuful peaceful voice letting me know when to breathe. I was both on the other side of the room and then above myself, but mostly on the other side of the room. I had forgotten about the teeth. You are in my thoughts and in my prayers, Gentle hugs from Anne
Response:
"tiny dancer" <tinydancer…@nospamhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SeDq9.21299$VQ.743064@twister.southeast.rr.com… > You made perfect sense to me Wes, and were able to say what I meant in a > much more precise way. When and if I’m able to say much at all it’s with > great effort and a lot of trying to pull twisted thoughts from my > mind……..it takes so much energy…….and then leaves me exhausted > afterwards. > td
td, I’m worried. You are stuck in a bad place. Is there anything I can do to help you? I would be happy to do something for you. Email me, ‘kay? larryhoo…@deletethispartnexicom.net
Response:
"LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:uqjmqk9pd9sqb7@corp.supernews.com… > I too, like Wes, have had emails from people in the group AND from people > who as far as I can tell have never posted here, they only lurk, asking me > not to stop posting. > [snip] > Larry Lusk
Larry, the rest of your post is snipped here because I also don’t want to ‘trigger’ anyone either, as you mentioned in another post. (And yes, this post DID trigger me a bit!) The day I posted my _incredibly_ obnoxious post last week turns out to have been the day I discovered, to my horror, that I’d been OFF my Prozac & Trazadone for 3 full days following a ‘blow-up’ the previous Sunday on the phone with Ex#2. While that problem is now resolved to my 2nd-eldest son’s satisfaction, clearly I started something here that was not intended, simply because *I* was not in control any longer. Did *I* make a CHOICE about what I put in that post? No, not really. Insanity is never that far away from me any more, not since May of 2001 and my stay in that lock-down ward. And the sneaky little bastard doesn’t ever give me much warning that it’s about to take control and make me look & feel stupid. About all I do notice at those times is that my blood pressure starts to climb through the ceiling. (And the ceilings in our home are low enough that I, at 5′8", can stretch up and touch them without being on tippy-toe!) But I *DID* post something I should not have. For that, I apologize to the Group. I truly did not intend to offend anyone and my ‘fighting words’ were meant to convey the idea that I would "fight" for the RIGHTS of anyone to post here, not that there would be any fisty-cuffs involved. I don’t do fisty-cuffs any more; can’t because the last 3 times it did happen I damn near killed someone. And one of those was my own father. Rose Marie, you may not be able to ‘read into’ your own posts some of the things that others of us perceive from your words. That is OUR problem, not yours. I know I’m often far too thin-skinned about some things, and most of my ‘triggers’ are the ‘hairy’ kind, where just the slightest nudge sends that bullet flying from my barrel. Even with 4 days now back on my anti-Ds, I’m starting to shake just thinking about this. But that’s my problem, as Larry keeps saying; it’s something *I* have to deal with, and no one else. My only problem with that is, of course, that the VA is not counseling me for my PTSD, they’re just throwing meds & money at the problem. Sure, I could go to a private shrink, but how would I pay him/her? Even at 100% VA Disability & Anita’s 100% SSDisability, we still occasionally run a bit short each month. Again, though, it’s my problem and one you shouldn’t concern yourself about. Perhaps the point I wish to make here is that some of you are MUCH farther along in therapy and progress toward total control (or even partial control) of your symptoms, whether from PTSD, DID, or any other of those acronyms. And then there are some of us who aren’t ANYwhere along that path yet. The only ‘control’ I have is to take my daily anti-Ds and do my damnedest to keep stress out of my life altogether. Which is not always possible. I note posts from several others who also are not as far along their path as the stronger ones in the group. We – the still-weak ones – know that we need to deal with things in "real life", but in some of our cases – as in mine – we sometimes no longer KNOW what is real & what is not. Oh, the places I’ve been in my mind, yet never physically touched! Is it any wonder that I still have doubts that anyone can truly understand what I’m going through? Larry knows. More than most of us, I’m afraid. He’s been places that I, in my most confident moments, would never dare to enter. I can empathize with him, but I’ll never FULLY understand exactly what he feels at those times, because I am not him & he is not me. We are the same, yet different. As usual, I feel I’m not making much sense now. You’d think a published author would be able to fine-tune the words of the English language in such a manner as to adequately explain simple things like insanity, huh? Well, I can’t – most of the time. Even to myself. So, I’ll go back into ‘lurk’ mode, as I did during my first couple weeks here. Wes…
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"les morceaux" <morce…@recoverynhealing.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:uqkg08p73sk6ec@corp.supernews.com… > hoy larry, > i doubt if you know me, but i have been lurking in ast-ptsd since > probably about 1996, although i’ve never been a regular poster. so > while you don’t know me, i do know you, at least those parts of you > that you’ve shared in this forum.
(snipped for brevity alone) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> i know i can never amend the wrong i did to my baby brother and > sister or to my children when they witnessed me abusing their father, > or to that man himself. but i can *balance* those wrongs on a > universal level by doing as much good as i can possibly do for the > rest of my life. i can do it a little bit at a time. i can pick up > a hitchhiker in the rain. i can help someone move. i can listen > when someone calls me because they’re sad. i can send a couple of > not-so-spare dollars to the local abuse network or to st. jude’s > hospital for children. i can sew a costume for one of my kids late > at night because it will make them happy to get it as a surprise on > holloween morning. i can turn my music down when my neighbor pulls > in after what i know was a long day at work for him. i can give > blood. i can sign a donor card. i can make a meal for someone who > is grieving. i can mow my elderly neighbor’s lawn. > and the same is true of the evil you did in nam. i don’t know who > you hurt or killed who didn’t deserve it, but i do know you can’t > make it right for that person. it isn’t possible. you feel guilty > because you *are* guilty. but you can make it right on a universal > level one day at a time, reaching out and doing good. the only way > you’re hopeless is if you refuse to accept your guilt and refuse to > make the world in which you live a little better for the people you > share it with. > grieve all you need to grieve; for the person you might have been, > for the boy you were who died over there, for the people whose lives > you ruined. but while you’re grieving, reach outside of yourself > and *give* larry, because that’s the only thing that can save our > lives today. > morceaux
Dear morceaux, I’m sure you know that morceaux means "to be in pieces", but I can’t conclude the same thing. Thank you for such a powerful message of recovery. I will save it in my archives, to be reminded anew. Lar
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Hi Wes! > But I *DID* post something I should not have. For that, I apologize to > the Group. I truly did not intend to offend anyone … (snip)
Firstly, thank you for explaining why I couldn’t follow your thinking. Distorted thinking from ‘no meds when we need them’ is one of our symptoms. :/ Secondly, I am not certain about the ’should not have’ part. One of the reasons we have groups for PTSD treatment is so that we can better/more easily ’see’ who we are and have been. I do think that your rambling was a ‘gift’ to me of how difficult it is for me to see my own symptoms and how easy it is for someone else to see my symptoms _in all their glory_. Your posts have reminded me how easily I can become confused myself. ——————–SNIP——————— > Perhaps the point I wish to make here is that some of you are MUCH > farther along in therapy and progress toward total control (or even partial > control) of your symptoms, whether from PTSD, DID, or any other of those > acronyms. And then there are some of us who aren’t ANYwhere along that path > yet. The only ‘control’ I have is to take my daily anti-Ds and do my > damnedest to keep stress out of my life altogether. Which is not always > possible. I note posts from several others who also are not as far along > their path as the stronger ones in the group. We – the still-weak ones – > know that we need to deal with things in "real life", but in some of our > cases – as in mine – we sometimes no longer KNOW what is real & what is
not. No shit! If you are referring to me as being more in control of my symptoms, then you need to rethink this position. I am more in control of my reactions, but the symptoms are still there … big time. For example: when I was finishing up a dividing job for another variety of hostas Saturday, Lucky, my cat on a harness and 20 foot yellow lead so I can find her when she is skulking in the bushes for prey, ended up walking away from me and off my property. I went looking for her several times, in the cold and in the rain, that night and then again early Sunday morning. She pulled into the back door about 11 a.m. Sunday wanting some food. She got ‘grounded’ too. Of course, my body waited about 6 hours before the diarrhea started! And, the next 6 hours were ’stay out of the way, folks, I need to go!’ until I finally got some sleep. Today, my body is sore, my self-winding watch didn’t and lost 3 hours, and my back is hurting. The symptoms have never gone away for me. What has changed has been my forgiving myself for having them and my respecting the symptoms for the messages that they give me. And, of course, the PTSD mantra helps considerably: STOP Breathe Think Decide Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Perhaps the point I wish to make here is that some of you are MUCH > farther along in therapy and progress toward total control (or even partial > control) of your symptoms, whether from PTSD, DID, or any other of those > acronyms. And then there are some of us who aren’t ANYwhere along that path > yet. The only ‘control’ I have is to take my daily anti-Ds and do my > damnedest to keep stress out of my life altogether. Which is not always > possible. I note posts from several others who also are not as far along > their path as the stronger ones in the group. We – the still-weak ones – > know that we need to deal with things in "real life", but in some of our > cases – as in mine – we sometimes no longer KNOW what is real & what is not. > Oh, the places I’ve been in my mind, yet never physically touched! Is it any > wonder that I still have doubts that anyone can truly understand what I’m > going through? Larry knows. More than most of us, I’m afraid. He’s been > places that I, in my most confident moments, would never dare to enter. I > can empathize with him, but I’ll never FULLY understand exactly what he > feels at those times, because I am not him & he is not me. We are the same, > yet different. > As usual, I feel I’m not making much sense now. You’d think a published > author would be able to fine-tune the words of the English language in such > a manner as to adequately explain simple things like insanity, huh? Well, I > can’t – most of the time. Even to myself. So, I’ll go back into ‘lurk’ mode, > as I did during my first couple weeks here. > Wes…
You made perfect sense to me Wes, and were able to say what I meant in a much more precise way. When and if I’m able to say much at all it’s with great effort and a lot of trying to pull twisted thoughts from my mind……..it takes so much energy…….and then leaves me exhausted afterwards. td – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
Response:
Lea, I can tell that you are being very sincere in what you say. Perhaps you are right in most if not all you have written. My post was not meant to say in any way that you and others haven’t overcome some major hurdles. I congratulate you for that. And I have gotten better, I learned what was causing me to do destructive things and with the meds I take I no longer take my fear driven anger physically out on others. But there is a line that I crossed that you didn’t. Yes, I made mistakes, one of which killed my best friend and another man and put my entire squad in the hospital, a few of which might have died later, I don’t know. This is the one that I have trouble coming to terms with but after years I am finally coming to feel better about myself and the incident. There are also, of course, so many other things that haunt me and those memories will give me pain for ever. But you missed my main point, which is understandable since I didn’t say much about it. My damnation is that I killed some people who didn’t need to die, and felt good about it afterwards. To say more about it could put me in criminal jeopardy. I do not ask nor do I want to know that anyone else here has done something like that. I had hoped that I wouldn’t have to say more than I did in my original post. I can offer support to others in that I know as much as anyone can how they are suffering and how alone they feel. I have given away all my money except for what I get from the VA each month to people I thought needed it more than I did. I have done other good things that matter little here and now and I have a hope that when I get past my fear of being with other people I don’t know I will do more through the MOPH or another Service Origination at the VA Hospital. I can’t offer advice though because no one should take the advice of a murder except "don’t do what I did if you ever intend to care about anyone else again. Well I do care and I suffer the consequences. That’s the best explanation I can give you Lea, and if other people hadn’t felt so piously right to "kick" me into real life I would still be giving some support to others and making some amends for my past. A win-win opportunity lost. Not all their fault, I have so many cracks in my "mirror" that I don’t know where or who I am at times. You tell me that I’m not welcome here Lea and I will leave, this time for good. All I ask from you is that you have the conviction to say how you really feel. No onus on you, the decision will be mine. With respect, Larry Lusk "Lea15" <le…@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20021013205953.15023.00001115@mb-de.aol.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >How can I "progress" if deep down inside > >I don’t feel I deserve to? > all of here have to answer the same question. who do you think starts to get > better because he/she think he/she deserves to? if you wait until that > happens, you will never get any better. most people get help for symptoms-not > because they wake up one day and think well shit!!! i’m a worthwhile person > and why have i been abusing myself for all these years? i gotta get some help. > what you describe is not very much different than what most of us struggle > with. i was abused as a child. there were times when i was given the option > to "save" someone else by being abused. i didn’t always take that option and > other people got hurt because of the choice i made. i was given the choice to > do unbelievable things to other people or get hurt myself and i chose to do the > things to other people at times. do i question my guilt in those > circumstances? hell no. > i’m a doctor. during my training, i had patients that i knew were going to die > and yet we still did surgery and other things to them because that’s the way > things work. did the surgeries hasten their death? hell yes. do i feel > guilty about it? again, hell yes. > i’ve had patients come in, things have been missed and they died. do i feel > guilty because i missed things? hell yes. do i feel like i killed some of > them? hell yes. > you don’t have to forgive yourself. you don’t have to cut yourself any slack > but you’re choosing to stay right where you are and have been by doing that. > everyone has to come to terms with what he/she has done in some way in order to > live with ptsd rather than have a life that is only ptsd. > i have to forgive myself daily or at least do something to atone for what i > feel guilty about. i work at hospice as a volunteer. i work in the adult and > pediatric ER doing my regular work plus being on call to do rape exams and > treat abused children. i donate money to causes that protect children from > being abused. every little bit that i do makes it okay for me to live today in > spite of what i feel guilty for doing in my past. > the choices you have made sound incredibly painful. it’s painful i’m sure for > those around you and those who treat you to see the choices you make but in the > end it’s up to you.
Response:
I feel I must apologize for not putting a trigger warning on my reply to Lea. Several people said they say and do what they do to "kick" people into the real world. Well folks, my reply is a butt kick into the "real" world as much as anything that has been said on this NG for some time. War, killing and death is as much a part of the real world as anything else I can think of. I am though sincerely sorry if it triggered any of you, I had no right to play with other peoples feelings. No excuse asked for. Larry Lusk
Response:
Thank you morceaux, you are among the very few people I have "met" that that seems to understand how crazy life can become for someone who was badly traumatized and is trying to make sense out of life now. I have known for a long time the problems some of the women here have with men and their inability to deal with their hatred. There are several here now, as you know, who are so consumed with that hate that I’ll make a bet that they don’t even realize it and certainly would not acknowledge it. This is not their NG and I will do what I have to to make that a reality (it’s not mine either but until a few of you get civil I’ll be here to point that out to you). I told something about myself that I have never made "public" before. I did it for a number of reasons, your response being one of them. I knew there were lurkers who would never post anything unless someone was so brutally honest about themselves that you couldn’t ignore it. As a result you gave me a reply that I have already taken very seriously and is already causing me to ask myself some serious questions. It was also time to wake up the NG in a way it hasn’t been, I suspect, for sometime. While you didn’t mention it, I do intend to answer attacks with satire. I will never get in a shout match or "pissing contest" with anyone here again. I’m here for my own reasons which include giving what support I can to others. I’m not looking for recognition or rewards. If I can make someone feel a little less alone then I have helped both of us. Those here who have a problem with my doing that will not like the replies I return to them and some readers and regular posters might get a laugh out of it. It would behoove everyone who reads this NG to read again your reply to my, well , what ever it was. What you wrote was both supportive and constructive and even caring. If you can’t see the difference between morceaux’s reply and the crap others have replied to me with, then read it again. Thanks again morceaux, your words will not be lost on me, Larry Lusk "les morceaux" <morce…@recoverynhealing.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:uqkg08p73sk6ec@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hoy larry, > i doubt if you know me, but i have been lurking in ast-ptsd since > probably about 1996, although i’ve never been a regular poster. so > while you don’t know me, i do know you, at least those parts of you > that you’ve shared in this forum. > just as a side note, i’d like to say that when i first found this > group, the majority of regular posters were veterans, not abuse > survivors. i remember reading posts from abuse survivors who felt > unwelcome here because they had never been in war. the tide has > turned, but the truth is still the same. ptsd isn’t about what > happened. it’s about surviving *today* what happened *then*. > i think one of the reasons this issue keeps coming up here, where > abuse survivors with ptsd and war survivors with ptsd seem to be at > odds with each other, is because so many abuse survivors were abused > by macho men so they tend to distrust veterans and so many veterans > have been attacked by angry women. so the distrust between the two > groups makes sense to me, but it’s silly to buy it here. right now, > today, i don’t give a shit what you did during your war… even if > it was something like the violent rape and murder of a pregnant > eleven-year-old. and i’ll ask you not to give a shit that during > the war, as the youngest of today’s old hippies, i was a peacenik > (and while i personally never called a veteran a babykiller, i don’t > recall arguing or calling down any of my friends who did, so you > would have had good reason *back then* to dislike me). > another problem that seems to split us is that many abuse survivors > seem to think, "well, christ on a pisspot, you were a *grown-up* > with a gun so what the fuck do you know about *fear*? i was (a > little kid, or attacked by someone bigger or armed, or whatever)!" > and many war survivors seem to think, "well, christ on a sidecar, > you were just a (little kid or a helpless woman attacked by someone > much larger or more dangerous) and you were the *victim*, not the > bad guy — you didn’t do anything to feel guilty about, so what the > fuck do you know about *guilt*?" > but today, in this forum, all i give a shit about is the fact that > you and i have the same problem, and we can sometimes help each > other. > >One of the major parts of treatment for PTSD is to help the victim > >see that they have nothing to feel guilty about. This doesn’t make > >the memories less painful but it helps a lot in how someone views > >themselves. > i know that what you’re saying here is true; that in therapy, they > spend a lot of energy trying to teach us that "there’s nothing to > feel guilty about", so i’m not arguing that. however i want to make > it very clear that i think it’s bullshit. often, we *have* done > things that were terrible, and telling us not to feel guilty is just > stupid. we can’t delete guilt. what we have to do is embrace it > and work from there. > >What keeps me stuck where I am is that there was another incident > >where I can’t question my guilt. Therapists and other vets have > >sincerely tried to help me look at it in a different way, it was > >war or that people under impossible stress do things that they > >would never do again (i.e. temporary insanity). > >I know what I did and it is unacceptable to me, unforgivable. Would > >you forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife almost to death > >or abused and molested his children just because he was drunk? I > >couldn’t. What I did was worse than that in many ways. When I was > >first called a "baby killer", you who are old enough, know that is > >what most of us Nam vets were called at some point, a barrier I had > >put up inside my head broke and I have never been able to look in a > >mirror and like the person I see there since. > i don’t know how to break this part up so i can respond to it point > by point, so i’m just going to try not to free-associate too much. > i guess first i want to talk about the bad stuff you mentioned. you > ask, "Would you forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife > almost to death or abused and molested his children just because he > was drunk?" > well, i’d never say it’s ok, so lets just ignore that part entirely. > and "just because he’s drunk" is certainly not a valid reason. but, > if that man had come to terms with his own guilt, accepted it, > admitted it, and lived the rest of his life in an attempt to better > the world around him, i could forgive him. i’d have to, because i > know i’m no better. > my ptsd is related to being raised by an asshole who believed that > since half of my genes came from his squirt, he owned me and could > do anything he wanted with me. some of the things he wanted to > do was beat the shit out of me,and tie me up and torture me and, of > course, use me as a fuckhole. so i grew up in terror and reasonably > enough, that fucked me up. > BUT… that’s not the whole story. not by a long shot. > another of the things he wanted to do with me was bring me into his > little fantasy life as a co-abuser. and along those lines, he made > me do viscious and twisted things to my younger siblings. there’s > some guilt. i did it to save my own life, so shrinks will say i’ve > no fault there, and fine… that may be true, but it doesn’t fix > GUILT. > BUT… that’s not everything either. > in my teens, of my own free will, i molested my favorite younger sib. > my father didn’t make me. he wasn’t around and didn’t know it was > happening. i did it. and i was raising my younger sibs, and i was > pretty damn bad at it, and i regularly beat them bloody. > shrinks will say to me, "yeah, but you were still a child, and you > were a child living in hell, so that’s not your fault." > BULLSHIT! and they fucking piss me off with that crap, because when > they tell me it’s not my fault, they’re denying REALITY, and denying > reality makes people like me SICKER goddamnit! what MORONS. it was > TOO my fault! the minute i start thinking it wasn’t my fault, i’m > setting myself up to cause more harm and to become what my father > was. fuck that shit. it’s horseshit and i won’t buy it. > as a young adult, i was an abusive spouse. and i wasn’t some itsy- > bitsy thing. i was perfectly capable of beating the living shit > out of my husband, and did on a couple of occasions. is some idiot > gonna tell me *that* wasn’t my fault? is some moron going to try to > claim that because of what happened to me as a child and a teen i > should not accept responsibility for my own actions? give me a > fucking break. > i don’t know exactly what you did, but i know it was bad. it was > probably even evil. and it was wrong, and you shouldn’t have done > it. maybe it would have been better if you’d chosen to die instead > of having done it. but you know what? we’re not there any more, > and the fact that you did do this terrible evil wrong thing that > you did of your own free will means you’ve lost the option to die > for it. it’s already done. other people can maybe kill you for it > but you aren’t allowed to do that yourself, because you’ve got to > make the world a better place. you have a debt to pay. > it’s been well over 15 years since i’ve actively done evil. the > last time was when my first husband left me and i beat him up. at > that point i had been working very hard to get past my abusive > nature and amend my wrongs, but i relapsed and attacked him. it > doesn’t matter what was happening around that action. it doesn’t > even matter that he had done a few really awful things to me and to > my children. that’s a completely separate issue. i attacked him, > i did an evil wrong thing, and those are the facts, baby. getting > all psychological about it just whitewashes it and wastes a lot
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Response:
LEL, i worked in the ptsd clinic at our local VA. your story is not unique nor is it different than most of the vietnam vets i’ve talked to. i’ve seen people come in and stay, stuck in the same place you are. i’ve seen others come in and actually get very much better. what the majority told me made the difference was being able to come to terms with what they had done and they were able to. only you know what it will take for you to be able to come to terms with vietnam. you may never do it and that would be sad. a life of ptsd is painful and no one deserves it regardless of what he/she has done. i know i didn’t start making much progression with my ptsd until the pain of staying where i was became more than the pain and fear of what life without ptsd would mean and the crap i had to deal with to get to a life. i didn’t ask you to leave. i wouldn’t ask anyone to leave. it’s totally your choice.
Response:
"les morceaux" <morce…@recoverynhealing.zzn.com> wrote in message
news:uqkg08p73sk6ec@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> hoy larry, > i doubt if you know me, but i have been lurking in ast-ptsd since > probably about 1996, although i’ve never been a regular poster. so > while you don’t know me, i do know you, at least those parts of you > that you’ve shared in this forum. > just as a side note, i’d like to say that when i first found this > group, the majority of regular posters were veterans, not abuse > survivors. i remember reading posts from abuse survivors who felt > unwelcome here because they had never been in war. the tide has > turned, but the truth is still the same. ptsd isn’t about what > happened. it’s about surviving *today* what happened *then*. > i think one of the reasons this issue keeps coming up here, where > abuse survivors with ptsd and war survivors with ptsd seem to be at > odds with each other, is because so many abuse survivors were abused > by macho men so they tend to distrust veterans and so many veterans > have been attacked by angry women. so the distrust between the two > groups makes sense to me, but it’s silly to buy it here. right now, > today, i don’t give a shit what you did during your war… even if > it was something like the violent rape and murder of a pregnant > eleven-year-old. and i’ll ask you not to give a shit that during > the war, as the youngest of today’s old hippies, i was a peacenik > (and while i personally never called a veteran a babykiller, i don’t > recall arguing or calling down any of my friends who did, so you > would have had good reason *back then* to dislike me). > another problem that seems to split us is that many abuse survivors > seem to think, "well, christ on a pisspot, you were a *grown-up* > with a gun so what the fuck do you know about *fear*? i was (a > little kid, or attacked by someone bigger or armed, or whatever)!" > and many war survivors seem to think, "well, christ on a sidecar, > you were just a (little kid or a helpless woman attacked by someone > much larger or more dangerous) and you were the *victim*, not the > bad guy — you didn’t do anything to feel guilty about, so what the > fuck do you know about *guilt*?" > but today, in this forum, all i give a shit about is the fact that > you and i have the same problem, and we can sometimes help each > other. > >One of the major parts of treatment for PTSD is to help the victim > >see that they have nothing to feel guilty about. This doesn’t make > >the memories less painful but it helps a lot in how someone views > >themselves. > i know that what you’re saying here is true; that in therapy, they > spend a lot of energy trying to teach us that "there’s nothing to > feel guilty about", so i’m not arguing that. however i want to make > it very clear that i think it’s bullshit. often, we *have* done > things that were terrible, and telling us not to feel guilty is just > stupid. we can’t delete guilt. what we have to do is embrace it > and work from there. > >What keeps me stuck where I am is that there was another incident > >where I can’t question my guilt. Therapists and other vets have > >sincerely tried to help me look at it in a different way, it was > >war or that people under impossible stress do things that they > >would never do again (i.e. temporary insanity). > >I know what I did and it is unacceptable to me, unforgivable. Would > >you forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife almost to death > >or abused and molested his children just because he was drunk? I > >couldn’t. What I did was worse than that in many ways. When I was > >first called a "baby killer", you who are old enough, know that is > >what most of us Nam vets were called at some point, a barrier I had > >put up inside my head broke and I have never been able to look in a > >mirror and like the person I see there since. > i don’t know how to break this part up so i can respond to it point > by point, so i’m just going to try not to free-associate too much. > i guess first i want to talk about the bad stuff you mentioned. you > ask, "Would you forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife > almost to death or abused and molested his children just because he > was drunk?" > well, i’d never say it’s ok, so lets just ignore that part entirely. > and "just because he’s drunk" is certainly not a valid reason. but, > if that man had come to terms with his own guilt, accepted it, > admitted it, and lived the rest of his life in an attempt to better > the world around him, i could forgive him. i’d have to, because i > know i’m no better. > my ptsd is related to being raised by an asshole who believed that > since half of my genes came from his squirt, he owned me and could > do anything he wanted with me. some of the things he wanted to > do was beat the shit out of me,and tie me up and torture me and, of > course, use me as a fuckhole. so i grew up in terror and reasonably > enough, that fucked me up. > BUT… that’s not the whole story. not by a long shot. > another of the things he wanted to do with me was bring me into his > little fantasy life as a co-abuser. and along those lines, he made > me do viscious and twisted things to my younger siblings. there’s > some guilt. i did it to save my own life, so shrinks will say i’ve > no fault there, and fine… that may be true, but it doesn’t fix > GUILT. > BUT… that’s not everything either. > in my teens, of my own free will, i molested my favorite younger sib. > my father didn’t make me. he wasn’t around and didn’t know it was > happening. i did it. and i was raising my younger sibs, and i was > pretty damn bad at it, and i regularly beat them bloody. > shrinks will say to me, "yeah, but you were still a child, and you > were a child living in hell, so that’s not your fault." > BULLSHIT! and they fucking piss me off with that crap, because when > they tell me it’s not my fault, they’re denying REALITY, and denying > reality makes people like me SICKER goddamnit! what MORONS. it was > TOO my fault! the minute i start thinking it wasn’t my fault, i’m > setting myself up to cause more harm and to become what my father > was. fuck that shit. it’s horseshit and i won’t buy it. > as a young adult, i was an abusive spouse. and i wasn’t some itsy- > bitsy thing. i was perfectly capable of beating the living shit > out of my husband, and did on a couple of occasions. is some idiot > gonna tell me *that* wasn’t my fault? is some moron going to try to > claim that because of what happened to me as a child and a teen i > should not accept responsibility for my own actions? give me a > fucking break. > i don’t know exactly what you did, but i know it was bad. it was > probably even evil. and it was wrong, and you shouldn’t have done > it. maybe it would have been better if you’d chosen to die instead > of having done it. but you know what? we’re not there any more, > and the fact that you did do this terrible evil wrong thing that > you did of your own free will means you’ve lost the option to die > for it. it’s already done. other people can maybe kill you for it > but you aren’t allowed to do that yourself, because you’ve got to > make the world a better place. you have a debt to pay. > it’s been well over 15 years since i’ve actively done evil. the > last time was when my first husband left me and i beat him up. at > that point i had been working very hard to get past my abusive > nature and amend my wrongs, but i relapsed and attacked him. it > doesn’t matter what was happening around that action. it doesn’t > even matter that he had done a few really awful things to me and to > my children. that’s a completely separate issue. i attacked him, > i did an evil wrong thing, and those are the facts, baby. getting > all psychological about it just whitewashes it and wastes a lot of > time and isn’t helpful at all. i did a bad thing. i did an evil > thing. i did it. period. > in those 15 years, i’ve tried very very hard to amend the wrongs i > committed. not just with my younger sibs or my first husband, > but… you know, all that hippy dippy shit wasn’t all crap, larry. > some of it makes a shitload of sense. my little piss-pot evils > don’t hold a candle to the evils of someone like hitler, and my best > attempts to do right don’t hold a candle to the great blessings of > someone like gandhi, but my evil and my good *does* matter on a > universal level, and i’ve no right to deny that. i owe a debt. i > have a responsibility to do right, to pay the *universe* for the > good i killed with my evil. and i have a chance to do it too, > because you know what? i didn’t do evil for years and years and > years. i did evil a few isolated times in my life. but i’ve got an > entire *life* to do as much good as i can. maybe that life is only > gonna last a few more minutes, and maybe it will last for another > 40-odd years, but it’s a whole LIFE to work with! > i know i can never amend the wrong i did to my baby brother and > sister or to my children when they witnessed me abusing their father, > or to that man himself. but i can *balance* those wrongs on a > universal level by doing as much good as i can possibly do for the > rest of my life. i can do it a little bit at a time. i can pick up > a hitchhiker in the rain. i can help someone move. i can listen > when someone calls me because they’re sad. i can send a couple of > not-so-spare dollars to the local abuse network or to st. jude’s > hospital for children. i can sew a costume for one of my kids late > at night because it will make them happy to get it as a surprise on > holloween morning. i can turn my music down when my neighbor pulls > in after what i know was a long day at work for him. i can give > blood. i can sign a donor card. i can make a meal for someone who > is grieving. i can mow my elderly
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Response:
Rose Marie, I’m really upset with my self about how I replied to your last post. I should not have said those unkind things to you. I should instead have congratulated you on your attempt. It should have been meaner though and I would have cut and pasted other parts of my original post to show me in a worse light. It was a little too easy to see what you were doing. Take a more subtle approach next time. Don’t be afraid to change the wording in a cut and paste either. Most people are too stupid and lazy to check for themselves if the quote is accurate or not, even more so if it’s down aways on the thread. Silly of me to be pointing these things out to you, for this must just have been an off post. I know you can do better. So keep at it and pile it on whenever you get the chance. You never know which straw will "break the camel’s back". Love, Larry Lusk "Rose Marie Holt" <rmho…@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:rmholt1-2C64C9.00100614102002@news.mindspring.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> X-No-ARCHIVE:YES > In article <uqjmqk9pd9s…@corp.supernews.com>, > "LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote: > > Making me feel worse about myself is a good thing. Take away anything that I > > do that might help someone else (and make me feel a little better about > > myself) is the right thing to do. From now on I will agree with you and > > encourage negative comments about me. Enough and I might allow me to end my > > pain. > > Larry Lusk > Larry, thanks for sharing what you are going through. I respect it. I > do not consider it a criticism of me or anyone else. > You are seeing stuff in other posts that I dont see. Lots of people > show their respect by responding to your posts and others posts. What > they say affects you in a way that really is your own. I havent seen > *anyone* abused or picked apart here. I have seen a lot of people give > of themselves in most intimate ways to people who are essentially > strangers, which is quite a gift. If you could have faith in their > motives, that might help. > The reason I never killed myself is because I am a chicken shit coward. > So, we all have our reasons. > If this group is too painful for you right now, you may want to > selectively lurk/post and just not read the folks you’d prefer not to > read. > Just a suggestion. > Best, Marie
Response:
Do you mean to tell me that you and Nancy haven’t gone after me and others who feel differently than you do about PTSD and how to express their feelings. If that’s true then I should be in a lock ward right now. If not, perhaps you should. I ask you to look at what you chose to cut and paste from my post and compare it with your words below it. I’m not stupid Rose Marie, a little crazy and angry at times but not stupid. Larry Lusk "Rose Marie Holt" <rmho…@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:rmholt1-2C64C9.00100614102002@news.mindspring.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> X-No-ARCHIVE:YES > In article <uqjmqk9pd9s…@corp.supernews.com>, > "LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote: > > Making me feel worse about myself is a good thing. Take away anything that I > > do that might help someone else (and make me feel a little better about > > myself) is the right thing to do. From now on I will agree with you and > > encourage negative comments about me. Enough and I might allow me to end my > > pain. > > Larry Lusk > Larry, thanks for sharing what you are going through. I respect it. I > do not consider it a criticism of me or anyone else. > You are seeing stuff in other posts that I dont see. Lots of people > show their respect by responding to your posts and others posts. What > they say affects you in a way that really is your own. I havent seen > *anyone* abused or picked apart here. I have seen a lot of people give > of themselves in most intimate ways to people who are essentially > strangers, which is quite a gift. If you could have faith in their > motives, that might help. > The reason I never killed myself is because I am a chicken shit coward. > So, we all have our reasons. > If this group is too painful for you right now, you may want to > selectively lurk/post and just not read the folks you’d prefer not to > read. > Just a suggestion. > Best, Marie
Response:
Scratch what I said about leaving if Lea asked me to. Some comments that were made by Lea to and about others is the reason for the withdrawal. If she continues to be fair with me and doesn’t take part in a joint attack on me I will treat her posts as I would like to treat everyone’s, with respect and understanding. By the way, not everything that someone posts or makes replies to is of concern to me. Most I will make no comment on at all because I have nothing constructive or supportive to offer or it’s about something I have limited knowledge about. I will also never get in the way of anyone trying to help someone, even if I disagree with what is being said. If I reply to the original post I will make no reference to anything the other person has said. I will simply try to be supportive and non-judgmental. I may make a mistake at times but that is just because I’m human. Larry Lusk
Response:
You are so right on Nancy. Again, a silly thing to do, no one could possible care and I defy anyone to consider you stupid. As to the should, you are also right, as soon as I can I’ll check with my neighbors to see if one of them will flog me. I see your point, there is no reason I can think of why I should get free medical treatment. The fact that my Pdoc at the VA sees me every six months is far too frequent. We should all write our congressman or woman and complain that we are giving our vets too much. And Nancy, I am happy that your higher power is with and for you, you deserve it. Mine however died in Vietnam. My problem and most certainly not yours. Sorry now that I even mentioned it. Yes, what you say is true, I have never done a good work in my life. Your right on perceptions leave me standing in awe. I can’t wait for more words of wisdom. I really mean that. Larry Lusk "Nancy" <ki…@cox.net> wrote in message
news:uyoq9.123237$IL6.6394195@news2.east.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Larry! > Explaining on a newsgroup why you remain blocked up after 30 years is not > stupid. It is your choice and I will not label any choices as stupid. > However, I seriously doubt that your explaining why you remain blocked after > 30 years to a Usenet newsgroup will do anything positive for your recovery. > I cannot support your decision as a person with diagnosed PTSD, with all > your advantages of free treatment and free meds, to ‘fight recovery’. > And, I will not cooperate in your desire to be punished. I am sorry that > you feel badly about your previous acts; I’m sorry that, rather than now > doing good works and knowing that your Higher Power loves you, you turn from > HP and a modicum of good works. > I don’t like ’shoulds’ anyway. > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > Nancy
Response:
>How can I "progress" if deep down inside >I don’t feel I deserve to?
all of here have to answer the same question. who do you think starts to get better because he/she think he/she deserves to? if you wait until that happens, you will never get any better. most people get help for symptoms-not because they wake up one day and think well shit!!! i’m a worthwhile person and why have i been abusing myself for all these years? i gotta get some help. what you describe is not very much different than what most of us struggle with. i was abused as a child. there were times when i was given the option to "save" someone else by being abused. i didn’t always take that option and other people got hurt because of the choice i made. i was given the choice to do unbelievable things to other people or get hurt myself and i chose to do the things to other people at times. do i question my guilt in those circumstances? hell no. i’m a doctor. during my training, i had patients that i knew were going to die and yet we still did surgery and other things to them because that’s the way things work. did the surgeries hasten their death? hell yes. do i feel guilty about it? again, hell yes. i’ve had patients come in, things have been missed and they died. do i feel guilty because i missed things? hell yes. do i feel like i killed some of them? hell yes. you don’t have to forgive yourself. you don’t have to cut yourself any slack but you’re choosing to stay right where you are and have been by doing that. everyone has to come to terms with what he/she has done in some way in order to live with ptsd rather than have a life that is only ptsd. i have to forgive myself daily or at least do something to atone for what i feel guilty about. i work at hospice as a volunteer. i work in the adult and pediatric ER doing my regular work plus being on call to do rape exams and treat abused children. i donate money to causes that protect children from being abused. every little bit that i do makes it okay for me to live today in spite of what i feel guilty for doing in my past. the choices you have made sound incredibly painful. it’s painful i’m sure for those around you and those who treat you to see the choices you make but in the end it’s up to you.
Response:
Hi Larry! Explaining on a newsgroup why you remain blocked up after 30 years is not stupid. It is your choice and I will not label any choices as stupid. However, I seriously doubt that your explaining why you remain blocked after 30 years to a Usenet newsgroup will do anything positive for your recovery. I cannot support your decision as a person with diagnosed PTSD, with all your advantages of free treatment and free meds, to ‘fight recovery’. And, I will not cooperate in your desire to be punished. I am sorry that you feel badly about your previous acts; I’m sorry that, rather than now doing good works and knowing that your Higher Power loves you, you turn from HP and a modicum of good works. I don’t like ’shoulds’ anyway. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy "LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:uqk3meo86kiia6@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I agree with you completely Nancy. And explaining why I’m blocked up was > really stupid. Who cares anyway. If my wording inferred that I was placing > anything on you then I’m sorry and should be flogged. Keep up the good > fight, you’re doing great! > Larry Lusk > "Nancy" <ki…@cox.net> wrote in message > news:Bhnq9.122743$IL6.6378036@news2.east.cox.net… ! > > You do not need to try to place any choice for any of your decisions, past > > or present, on me or anyone else. It is your life to live any way you > wish. > > I am sorry that the choices you now make do not make you happier. > > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > > Nancy > > "LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote in message > > news:uqjmqk9pd9sqb7@corp.supernews.com… > > > I too, like Wes, have had emails from people in the group AND from > people > > > who as far as I can tell have never posted here, they only lurk, asking > me > > > not to stop posting. > > > First, let me make clearer why some aspects of my PTSD are different > from > > > most who post on this NG. I’m not doing this to compare or contrast or > > play > > > a "one up game". I just want to let those who really mean well know why > I > > > can’t do what they suggest or make the progress that they have. While > the > > > core of my PTSD took place over only a six month period and consisted of > > > many different incidents that were/are glued together by fear, first of > my > > > own death and when I was able to stuff that away the fear of what bad > > thing > > > was going to happen next was still there. I didn’t know what was going > to > > > happen, only that it was going to be bad. Since that fear was reinforced > > > (rewarded?) almost every day reality and time lost all meaning to me. > > > Vietnam is still clearer in my mind than what I did yesterday even after > > all > > > these years. > > > This alone is not any different than what many if not all PTSD sufferers > > > experience no matter how their trauma occurred. I like many blamed > myself > > > for many of the things that happened, most of which I had no control > over. > > > One of the major parts of treatment for PTSD is to help the victim see > > that > > > they have nothing to feel guilty about. This doesn’t make the memories > > less > > > painful but it helps a lot in how someone views themselves. For most of > > the > > > bad things that I experienced in Nam I can do that although I am still > > > having trouble with one incident. What keeps me stuck where I am is that > > > there was another incident where I can’t question my guilt. Therapists > and > > > other vets have sincerely tried to help me look at it in a different > way, > > it > > > was war or that people under impossible stress do things that they would > > > never do again ( i.e. temporary insanity). > > > I know what I did and it is unacceptable to me, unforgivable. Would you > > > forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife almost to death or > abused > > > and molested his children just because he was drunk? I couldn’t. What I > > did > > > was worse than that in many ways. When I was first called a "baby > killer", > > > you who are old enough, know that is what most of us Nam vets were > called > > at > > > some point, a barrier I had put up inside my head broke and I have never > > > been able to look in a mirror and like the person I see there since. > When > > I > > > say I should have never come home from Nam, that I should have died > there > > > with my friends, I really mean it. How can I "progress" if deep down > > inside > > > I don’t feel I deserve to? Why haven’t I killed myself like many other > > > combat vets have? I don’t know. Maybe I feel that my continued suffering > > is > > > a proper punishment and death is just a release from that justice. > Before > > my > > > current meds I tried to get other people to goad me enough so that I > could > > > force myself to end the pain. I think that is why I keep coming back to > > this > > > NG. Maybe the abuse from some of you might tip the balance. > > > On the subject of abuse (and those of you who do it please don’t stop, > you > > > may tip me yet) the picking apart of a post, choosing those points where > > you > > > can hurt another the most is the most malicious form of abuse that can > be > > > done on the Usenet. It takes the focus of the original post and twists > it > > > and directs the subsequent posts (usually) in a destructive direction. > To > > > comment on a post as a whole is usually just a difference in how you > look > > at > > > things. That at least keeps the thread intact and on topic. But as I > said, > > > don’t change your ways, you may still get me to where I really want to > be > > > yet. > > > One last thing. While I’m not going to tell you what I did, although > I’ve > > > said a little about it in the past (with a few parts not completely > true), > > > to forgive me for what I did would make you as big a monster as I many > > times > > > see myself. Pity party? You haven’t got a clue, but again, don’t stop. > > > Making me feel worse about myself is a good thing. Take away anything > that > > I > > > do that might help someone else (and make me feel a little better about > > > myself) is the right thing to do. From now on I will agree with you and > > > encourage negative comments about me. Enough and I might allow me to end > > my > > > pain. > > > Larry Lusk
Response:
I agree with you completely Nancy. And explaining why I’m blocked up was really stupid. Who cares anyway. If my wording inferred that I was placing anything on you then I’m sorry and should be flogged. Keep up the good fight, you’re doing great! Larry Lusk "Nancy" <ki…@cox.net> wrote in message
news:Bhnq9.122743$IL6.6378036@news2.east.cox.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Larry! > You do not need to try to place any choice for any of your decisions, past > or present, on me or anyone else. It is your life to live any way you wish. > I am sorry that the choices you now make do not make you happier. > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > Nancy > "LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote in message > news:uqjmqk9pd9sqb7@corp.supernews.com… > > I too, like Wes, have had emails from people in the group AND from people > > who as far as I can tell have never posted here, they only lurk, asking me > > not to stop posting. > > First, let me make clearer why some aspects of my PTSD are different from > > most who post on this NG. I’m not doing this to compare or contrast or > play > > a "one up game". I just want to let those who really mean well know why I > > can’t do what they suggest or make the progress that they have. While the > > core of my PTSD took place over only a six month period and consisted of > > many different incidents that were/are glued together by fear, first of my > > own death and when I was able to stuff that away the fear of what bad > thing > > was going to happen next was still there. I didn’t know what was going to > > happen, only that it was going to be bad. Since that fear was reinforced > > (rewarded?) almost every day reality and time lost all meaning to me. > > Vietnam is still clearer in my mind than what I did yesterday even after > all > > these years. > > This alone is not any different than what many if not all PTSD sufferers > > experience no matter how their trauma occurred. I like many blamed myself > > for many of the things that happened, most of which I had no control over. > > One of the major parts of treatment for PTSD is to help the victim see > that > > they have nothing to feel guilty about. This doesn’t make the memories > less > > painful but it helps a lot in how someone views themselves. For most of > the > > bad things that I experienced in Nam I can do that although I am still > > having trouble with one incident. What keeps me stuck where I am is that > > there was another incident where I can’t question my guilt. Therapists and > > other vets have sincerely tried to help me look at it in a different way, > it > > was war or that people under impossible stress do things that they would > > never do again ( i.e. temporary insanity). > > I know what I did and it is unacceptable to me, unforgivable. Would you > > forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife almost to death or abused > > and molested his children just because he was drunk? I couldn’t. What I > did > > was worse than that in many ways. When I was first called a "baby killer", > > you who are old enough, know that is what most of us Nam vets were called > at > > some point, a barrier I had put up inside my head broke and I have never > > been able to look in a mirror and like the person I see there since. When > I > > say I should have never come home from Nam, that I should have died there > > with my friends, I really mean it. How can I "progress" if deep down > inside > > I don’t feel I deserve to? Why haven’t I killed myself like many other > > combat vets have? I don’t know. Maybe I feel that my continued suffering > is > > a proper punishment and death is just a release from that justice. Before > my > > current meds I tried to get other people to goad me enough so that I could > > force myself to end the pain. I think that is why I keep coming back to > this > > NG. Maybe the abuse from some of you might tip the balance. > > On the subject of abuse (and those of you who do it please don’t stop, you > > may tip me yet) the picking apart of a post, choosing those points where > you > > can hurt another the most is the most malicious form of abuse that can be > > done on the Usenet. It takes the focus of the original post and twists it > > and directs the subsequent posts (usually) in a destructive direction. To > > comment on a post as a whole is usually just a difference in how you look > at > > things. That at least keeps the thread intact and on topic. But as I said, > > don’t change your ways, you may still get me to where I really want to be > > yet. > > One last thing. While I’m not going to tell you what I did, although I’ve > > said a little about it in the past (with a few parts not completely true), > > to forgive me for what I did would make you as big a monster as I many > times > > see myself. Pity party? You haven’t got a clue, but again, don’t stop. > > Making me feel worse about myself is a good thing. Take away anything that > I > > do that might help someone else (and make me feel a little better about > > myself) is the right thing to do. From now on I will agree with you and > > encourage negative comments about me. Enough and I might allow me to end > my > > pain. > > Larry Lusk
Response:
I too, like Wes, have had emails from people in the group AND from people who as far as I can tell have never posted here, they only lurk, asking me not to stop posting. First, let me make clearer why some aspects of my PTSD are different from most who post on this NG. I’m not doing this to compare or contrast or play a "one up game". I just want to let those who really mean well know why I can’t do what they suggest or make the progress that they have. While the core of my PTSD took place over only a six month period and consisted of many different incidents that were/are glued together by fear, first of my own death and when I was able to stuff that away the fear of what bad thing was going to happen next was still there. I didn’t know what was going to happen, only that it was going to be bad. Since that fear was reinforced (rewarded?) almost every day reality and time lost all meaning to me. Vietnam is still clearer in my mind than what I did yesterday even after all these years. This alone is not any different than what many if not all PTSD sufferers experience no matter how their trauma occurred. I like many blamed myself for many of the things that happened, most of which I had no control over. One of the major parts of treatment for PTSD is to help the victim see that they have nothing to feel guilty about. This doesn’t make the memories less painful but it helps a lot in how someone views themselves. For most of the bad things that I experienced in Nam I can do that although I am still having trouble with one incident. What keeps me stuck where I am is that there was another incident where I can’t question my guilt. Therapists and other vets have sincerely tried to help me look at it in a different way, it was war or that people under impossible stress do things that they would never do again ( i.e. temporary insanity). I know what I did and it is unacceptable to me, unforgivable. Would you forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife almost to death or abused and molested his children just because he was drunk? I couldn’t. What I did was worse than that in many ways. When I was first called a "baby killer", you who are old enough, know that is what most of us Nam vets were called at some point, a barrier I had put up inside my head broke and I have never been able to look in a mirror and like the person I see there since. When I say I should have never come home from Nam, that I should have died there with my friends, I really mean it. How can I "progress" if deep down inside I don’t feel I deserve to? Why haven’t I killed myself like many other combat vets have? I don’t know. Maybe I feel that my continued suffering is a proper punishment and death is just a release from that justice. Before my current meds I tried to get other people to goad me enough so that I could force myself to end the pain. I think that is why I keep coming back to this NG. Maybe the abuse from some of you might tip the balance. On the subject of abuse (and those of you who do it please don’t stop, you may tip me yet) the picking apart of a post, choosing those points where you can hurt another the most is the most malicious form of abuse that can be done on the Usenet. It takes the focus of the original post and twists it and directs the subsequent posts (usually) in a destructive direction. To comment on a post as a whole is usually just a difference in how you look at things. That at least keeps the thread intact and on topic. But as I said, don’t change your ways, you may still get me to where I really want to be yet. One last thing. While I’m not going to tell you what I did, although I’ve said a little about it in the past (with a few parts not completely true), to forgive me for what I did would make you as big a monster as I many times see myself. Pity party? You haven’t got a clue, but again, don’t stop. Making me feel worse about myself is a good thing. Take away anything that I do that might help someone else (and make me feel a little better about myself) is the right thing to do. From now on I will agree with you and encourage negative comments about me. Enough and I might allow me to end my pain. Larry Lusk
Response:
Hi Larry! You do not need to try to place any choice for any of your decisions, past or present, on me or anyone else. It is your life to live any way you wish. I am sorry that the choices you now make do not make you happier. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy "LEL" <lelvn…@charter.net> wrote in message
news:uqjmqk9pd9sqb7@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I too, like Wes, have had emails from people in the group AND from people > who as far as I can tell have never posted here, they only lurk, asking me > not to stop posting. > First, let me make clearer why some aspects of my PTSD are different from > most who post on this NG. I’m not doing this to compare or contrast or play > a "one up game". I just want to let those who really mean well know why I > can’t do what they suggest or make the progress that they have. While the > core of my PTSD took place over only a six month period and consisted of > many different incidents that were/are glued together by fear, first of my > own death and when I was able to stuff that away the fear of what bad thing > was going to happen next was still there. I didn’t know what was going to > happen, only that it was going to be bad. Since that fear was reinforced > (rewarded?) almost every day reality and time lost all meaning to me. > Vietnam is still clearer in my mind than what I did yesterday even after all > these years. > This alone is not any different than what many if not all PTSD sufferers > experience no matter how their trauma occurred. I like many blamed myself > for many of the things that happened, most of which I had no control over. > One of the major parts of treatment for PTSD is to help the victim see that > they have nothing to feel guilty about. This doesn’t make the memories less > painful but it helps a lot in how someone views themselves. For most of the > bad things that I experienced in Nam I can do that although I am still > having trouble with one incident. What keeps me stuck where I am is that > there was another incident where I can’t question my guilt. Therapists and > other vets have sincerely tried to help me look at it in a different way, it > was war or that people under impossible stress do things that they would > never do again ( i.e. temporary insanity). > I know what I did and it is unacceptable to me, unforgivable. Would you > forgive or say it was ok if a man beat his wife almost to death or abused > and molested his children just because he was drunk? I couldn’t. What I did > was worse than that in many ways. When I was first called a "baby killer", > you who are old enough, know that is what most of us Nam vets were called at > some point, a barrier I had put up inside my head broke and I have never > been able to look in a mirror and like the person I see there since. When I > say I should have never come home from Nam, that I should have died there > with my friends, I really mean it. How can I "progress" if deep down inside > I don’t feel I deserve to? Why haven’t I killed myself like many other > combat vets have? I don’t know. Maybe I feel that my continued suffering is > a proper punishment and death is just a release from that justice. Before my > current meds I tried to get other people to goad me enough so that I could > force myself to end the pain. I think that is why I keep coming back to this > NG. Maybe the abuse from some of you might tip the balance. > On the subject of abuse (and those of you who do it please don’t stop, you > may tip me yet) the picking apart of a post, choosing those points where you > can hurt another the most is the most malicious form of abuse that can be > done on the Usenet. It takes the focus of the original post and twists it > and directs the subsequent posts (usually) in a destructive direction. To > comment on a post as a whole is usually just a difference in how you look at > things. That at least keeps the thread intact and on topic. But as I said, > don’t change your ways, you may still get me to where I really want to be > yet. > One last thing. While I’m not going to tell you what I did, although I’ve > said a little about it in the past (with a few parts not completely true), > to forgive me for what I did would make you as big a monster as I many times > see myself. Pity party? You haven’t got a clue, but again, don’t stop. > Making me feel worse about myself is a good thing. Take away anything that I > do that might help someone else (and make me feel a little better about > myself) is the right thing to do. From now on I will agree with you and > encourage negative comments about me. Enough and I might allow me to end my > pain. > Larry Lusk
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