Question:
What is Thought Field Therapy (TFT)? I’ve heard that it can relieve grief and trauma in one session. Is that possible?
Here’s the info, but my providing it should **not** be construed as an endorsement of thought field therapy (see last paragraph of this post for my two cents): Charles Figley edits an excellent online journal, Traumatology. This link leads to the table of contents of one issue containing a review by Hooke of the few studies conducted on TFT, and a rejoinder by TFT’s originator: http://rdz.acor.org/lists/trauma//contv3i2.html The Hooke article also contains Figley’s "TFT Algorithm," which allows you to try TFT on yourself. On me, it didn’t work… It isn’t research, but a case study by Callahan will give the reader a feel for what TFT is like: http://rdz.acor.org/lists/trauma//T039.html Summary of a study on Agoraphobia and TFT: http://www.tftrx.com/expstudy.htm In my opinion, TFT makes extravagant claims that are not supported by any good research. In that respect, it’s quite different than EMDR, which makes reasonable claims that are beginning to be supported by solid research–although some of the research findings are contradictory, and some therapists are using EMDR in a wanton fashion as the treatment of choice for just about anyone who walks in the door. I don’t know anything about TIR. Peter — Clinical Psychologist President-Elect, International Society for the Study of Dissociation 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Hts., OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
Response:
What is Thought Field Therapy (TFT)? I’ve heard that it can relieve grief and trauma in one session. Is that possible? Can I do it by myself or do I need someone trained in the technique? Does it involve touching? Is there a book about it? How is it different than (EMDR) Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing, (TIR) Traumatic Incident Reduction or (NLP) Visual Kinesthetic Dissociation? {cherish} a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
Response:
What is Thought Field Therapy (TFT)? I’ve heard that it can relieve grief and trauma in one session. Is that possible?
Hi {cherish} 
Possible? Hmmmm, well I guess it might be possible but I feel pretty dubious about what sort of relief it would really be. Here’s the info, but my providing it should **not** be construed as an endorsement of thought field therapy (see last paragraph of this post for my two cents): Charles Figley edits an excellent online journal, Traumatology.
I’ve read a fair bit in ‘Traumatology’ and would agree that it’s good, and it’s usually not overwhelmingly jargon-laden so from the perspective of an ordinary client/patient it can be pretty helpful. This link leads to the table of contents of one issue containing a review by Hooke of the few studies conducted on TFT, and a rejoinder by TFT’s originator: http://rdz.acor.org/lists/trauma//contv3i2.html
…And I’ve read these too. Interesting, not really conclusive of much except uncertainty but I’d agree with Peter’s two cents below. The Hooke article also contains Figley’s "TFT Algorithm," which allows you to try TFT on yourself. On me, it didn’t work… It isn’t research, but a case study by Callahan will give the reader a feel for what TFT is like: http://rdz.acor.org/lists/trauma//T039.html Summary of a study on Agoraphobia and TFT: http://www.tftrx.com/expstudy.htm In my opinion, TFT makes extravagant claims that are not supported by any good research.
There’s another thing called ‘EFT’ which seems to be like a pared-down version of TFT (by another guy who seems to have sort of adapted the basic TFT stuff to his own ideas). I’m on a trauma e-mail list where these ‘alphabet therapies’ (including TIR and EMDR) get mentioned pretty often. A few therapists are strong proponents of each and essentially say that their therapy will cure virtually anyone of any emotional/psychological problem within five or ten sessions at most, usually withing a few. Funnily enough, each of these strong proponents seem to say that all the _other_ therapies don’t really work or take several years. They can all cite numerous individual cases to demonstrate their claims but only with EMDR have I seen much in the way of academic stats that indicate any consistent success. Thankfully there are also several therapists on this list who consider these ‘power therapies’ (as they are also sometimes colloquially known) to be worth knowing about to some extent but not particularly reliable, which is about where I would fall on the faith spectrum too. The thing is that, funnily enough again, a therapist has to pay big bucks to be really let into using the techniques in proper accordance with the founder. They seem to have sort of levels of training and if you want to consider yourself fully versed you’d have to spend a small – and for some of them, large – fortune. They aren’t all like this, as far as I know TFT is. I don’t particularly begrudge someone making money out of these techniques if they work, but most of them have almost no evidence that they work except for being able to wheel out individual clients or tell you stories. Okay, I’m untrusting; okay, psychotherapy and psychiatry don’t have great success rates anyway – but I generally don’t feel interested in spending time and money doing something ‘new’ with a low confidence of success when I’m already doing something ‘old’ with a low confidence of success but nonetheless getting somewhere slowly. I don’t think TFT or any of these techniques are likely to be dangerous, BTW. I’ve known some people who have been helped by them and who say they’d certainly encourage others to give it a try from a ‘What have you got to lose?’ perspective, and I know there are several people here who are doing or have done one or other of them as part of therapy. Just not my cup of tea, I suppose. In that respect, it’s quite different than EMDR, which makes reasonable claims that are beginning to be supported by solid research–although some of the research findings are contradictory, and some therapists are using EMDR in a wanton fashion as the treatment of choice for just about anyone who walks in the door. I don’t know anything about TIR.
Me neither, except that similarly extravagant claims are made. Mick. Peter — Clinical Psychologist President-Elect, International Society for the Study of Dissociation 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Hts., OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
– "Many a mickle makes a muckle".
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dear peter, thanks for this post. What about rolfing which is supposed to bring back memory? Is this true?
Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. — Clinical Psychologist President-Elect, International Society for the Study of Dissociation 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Hts., OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
Response:
Spoiler for talking about specific details of corroborating memories, mention of p*dophilia. ghf hg hgf g ghf hg ghf gf hgf gh hg hb ghf jn hg hg h [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN
My two cents is that then frankly it really sucks. I’ve been in the situation where I had no corroboration and felt pretty sure I would find none, but I have some corroboration now although not direct evidence. My situation wrt accuracy of memories is now this – I remembered m*l*station happening when I was three; my descriptions of locations and some events in the days surrounding this event have been corroborated by revisiting locations, photos, diary entries and personal accounts. I did not remember the identity of the man who did it (I remembered the colour of his clothes; blue on the bottom, green on top) but was certain he was recognizable to someone else – an odd situation, I simply found that I was sure this person would be able to identify him if they saw his picture. I remembered that as a kid I felt sure this other person knew what had happened to some extent, although they have no current memory of it. Without my being present (and without my asking them to) this person looked through numerous photographs of both men and women, many but not all of whom were present in the location I remembered at the significant time. Several of the photographs were taken at that time and location – one of them was of a man wearing the colours I had recalled, although I did not believe I could say I was sure that was the man in question. Others were wearing the same colours one way or another but he was the only one wearing blue trousers with a green shirt. I felt quite uneasy in response to this photo but that was all. I felt a little uneasy at all the pictures taken of that time and place and could not compare the degree. The person who checked these photos was aware that I suspected that one of the men in them had m*lested me and that I thought they might have a strong reaction to that person’s image. They did have a very strong reaction to one image – the photo of the man wearing the colours I remembered as I remembered. They were not aware at that time of the significance of the colours. They described their response as feeling revolted by him, nauseous, scared and shaking. This man has, on further investigation, turned out to have been at least unusual in his s*xual/relationship habits and apparently an active p*dophile. The evidence for that is circumstantial and relies to some extent on definition. He had a short marriage during which he rarely had s*x with his wife but often brought underage (estimated as 11-14 yrs old) male street kids home to sleep in the spare bedroom to ‘look after them’. The kids would usually disappear the following day and not reappear. This was at the time I remembered being m* lested. After the marriage broke up he was openly gay, usually his boyfriends were under eighteen, sometimes estimated as 14 or 15. His ex-wife’s response to my suspicions was, in what I took to be a sad and compassionate tone, "It wouldn’t surprise me at all". She doesn’t seem to bear him any malice but prefers not to think of him, just says he was very sick and confused with some extremely weird ideas and that perhaps if they had been together longer she could have helped him to sort himself out. A further relevant note – I have some severe medical problems. I remembered various elements of the m*lestation incident which it seemed could have some relation to these problems. These problems have been presumed congenital in the absence of any other evidence – just bad luck. I asked my specialist whether, if I had been m*lested as I described to him and reacted as I remembered, this might have caused or contributed to those problems and the answer was ‘Most likely’. I’m not really sure where that leaves me. I don’t know what a court would make of it – whather this is satisfactory corroboration or not. The man in question is dead so I won’t get any help there. I have absolutely no direct evidence about the specific acts of m*lest except my own memories and feelings. My corroboration is largely circumstantial. I am satisfied in my own mind that my memory of what happened is pretty accurate – the information above is enough for me to accept as corroboration _personally_ and accords with my feelings. Working on my emotional problems from the perspective that what I remember is generally accurate has brought growth and change; other ways have not. Mick. — "Many a mickle makes a muckle".
Response:
[about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available.
And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN
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this was a private e-mail to peter baruch that got posted in error. Please people dont beat us up again. I never intended anyone any malice. penelope
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dear peter, thanks for this post. What about rolfing which is supposed to bring back memory? Is this true? My lost imageof B is back-once i found out it is a letter in the theban script of my childhood religion. But DID therapy in general is so slow and frustrating. please e-mail me directly. thanks penelope smith
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory. All memories, whether you’ve always had them (the yellow dress I received and wore for my seventh birthday party ) or recently had them come up, can be treated the same. There might be some errors in details. So what. People have to trust their memories, more or less, because memories are what give us a sense of identity. That’s my take on it.
whether i have *proof* or not of memories, in my therpy i am not treating my memories, i am treating my selfhood. and when my body and my mind are revolting in contradiction to the present, i i seek an explaination that serves the reduction and resolution of such tension. when i am haunted by sensations that are not accompanied by any story line, i found i must be patient and many times more and more stuff goes on with me till things click ….and even then i question my being, and my experience all along the way… even when the tension is released, even when i came to an explaination, and i feel better. i still question everything i go through… much of the time my questioning prevents me from finding relief… and often my questioning is swept away in the avalanche of what i have since learned is a flashback…. i have always had corroboration, from other folk, for most every story line i have found… but i find it no easier to believe or accept my experience. maybe my doc does, since there is so much corroboration… but *proof* or no *proof* it seems to make little difference to my experience. delian delian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lionheart — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory. All memories, whether you’ve always had them (the yellow dress I received and wore for my seventh birthday party ) or recently had them come up, can be treated the same. There might be some errors in details. So what. People have to trust their memories, more or less, because memories are what give us a sense of identity. That’s my take on it. whether i have *proof* or not of memories, in my therpy i am not treating my memories, i am treating my selfhood. and when my body and my mind are revolting in contradiction to the present, i i seek an explaination that serves the reduction and resolution of such tension. when i am haunted by sensations that are not accompanied by any story line, i found i must be patient and many times more and more stuff goes on with me till things click ….and even then i question my being, and my experience all along the way… even when the tension is released, even when i came to an explaination, and i feel better. i still question everything i go through… much of the time my questioning prevents me from finding relief… and often my questioning is swept away in the avalanche of what i have since learned is a flashback…. i have always had corroboration, from other folk, for most every story line i have found… but i find it no easier to believe or accept my experience. maybe my doc does, since there is so much corroboration… but *proof* or no *proof* it seems to make little difference to my experience. delian delian Lionheart
yeah, i read dr peter’s answer, and it’s like, "so?" it seems like he mentions it like a medical ipso facto escape clause. "i am not programmed to answer otherwise in that area" i spose it’s the side effect of the icky f*sf (m) ppl – you know, the one’s who invented f*s (m),the syndrome that never existed until theycoined the phrase? and so t’pists merriliy protect their professional, um, status by saying, hey, needs corroboration. why? i ain’t suing anybody. like, what exactly does it gain *mememememememe* to be told, well, it ’s not an offically stamped documentable proveable beyond a doubt memory just cuz ya have it. ya know there’s ppls that say the same thing about the holocaust. and pretty soon computers will be capable of generating any proof anybody needs. hey, even forrestgump hung out with kenndy (did y’ever wonder if clinton used the same phot processig?) iow, idont have iow. choddie-la — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
Response:
[about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN
I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory. All memories, whether you’ve always had them (the yellow dress I received and wore for my seventh birthday party ) or recently had them come up, can be treated the same. There might be some errors in details. So what. People have to trust their memories, more or less, because memories are what give us a sense of identity. That’s my take on it. Lionheart — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory.
Yes, I think this is true and worth noting. Our brains are still organic things and both perceptions and memories are basically something to do with the wash of chemicals and electrical impulses zooming around in there. It’s all imperfect as far as record-keeping goes but that applies to _all_ perceptions and memories. All memories, whether you’ve always had them (the yellow dress I received and wore for my seventh birthday party ) or recently had them come up, can be treated the same. There might be some errors in details. So what. People have to trust their memories, more or less, because memories are what give us a sense of identity. That’s my take on it.
Yeah, it’s an imperfect system but there’s no doubt it works to some degree of acceptability. I know that I might inaccurately remember my phone number from when I was ten. I am _positive_ that I accurately remember my address at that time. I attach degrees of accuracy to most memories and through putting a lot of small things together I can have a generally accurate picture of my past. The same applies to dissociated stuff – some I can corroborate and be very certain of, some I am confident of in terms of them making sense of my feelings and reactions and because treating them as accurate leads me to resolve problems previously unresolved, some I can only ever be confident of in that it just feels right, some I have to leave as simply uncertain, some are certainly inaccurate. But I can still have a picture that I am confident is generally accurate, just like more ordinary memories. whether i have *proof* or not of memories, in my therpy i am not treating my memories, i am treating my selfhood.
Nicely put, my focus is the same – the memories and other symptoms of my current situation are not the point, they’re a part. and when my body and my mind are revolting in contradiction to the present, i i seek an explaination that serves the reduction and resolution of such tension.
Yes, basically I just want to feel better and that has been happening slowly in term of my general self and also in terms of being able to deal with particular circumstances better. when i am haunted by sensations that are not accompanied by any story line, i found i must be patient and many times more and more stuff goes on with me till things click
Uh-huh, took me a long time not to push. ….and even then i question my being, and my experience all along the way… even when the tension is released, even when i came to an explaination, and i feel better. i still question everything i go through… much of the time my questioning prevents me from finding relief…
Likewise again. I still doubt my story more than anyone else around me. My family and friends are pretty much unquestioning and accept more clearly that I was m*lested than I do. and often my questioning is swept away in the avalanche of what i have since learned is a flashback….
That has only happened a few times for me, usually I am in some sort of numb shock and have needed to re-unknow things for a while after a strong flashback. i have always had corroboration, from other folk, for most every story line i have found… but i find it no easier to believe or accept my experience.
As above, ditto… maybe my doc does, since there is so much corroboration…
I like my therapist, she is careful what she says. She always points out that objectively she can’t _know_, but that what I have related to her as memories (if broadly accurate) would certainly provide a foundation for the emotional and psychological difficulties I have, and that there is a lot of circumstantial evidence to suggest that the memories are accurate. I guess my sense of her opinion is that she believes to about 80% probability. I also know I tend to underestimate whether people believe things about me or not. but *proof* or no *proof* it seems to make little difference to my experience.
I said in my reply to Sierra that it sucks when no corroboration is available, but it doesn’t suck a heckofalot less for me now that some circumstantial stuff is evident. I don’t know, and won’t, if being able to have direct corroboration would make much difference. I have often found that things I had thought would help a lot were chimeras. Perhaps I held on to them out of hope. The idea of getting ‘proof’ was a bit like that. Whether or not I have proof does not affect my fears and blocks, only vindicates my anger or sense of injustice. It does help a bit, it allows me to let some more peace in and feel a bit better about being suspicious or untrusting. It allows me to have more confidence that I am ‘really’ dealing with a ‘real’ problem. It doesn’t affect the internal pain or fear or of those things, though. In my own case there were two specific advantage to seeking corroboration which have definitely helped, though. The first is that my immediate family all helped to some extent in looking at what I remembered and seeing if it was accurate according to their own memories, diary entries, old photos etc. This gave me some rebuilt sense of faith that they cared where most of my life I had felt they were uncoincerned about my welfare. The second is that when I felt I knew who had m*lested me I also learnt that he was d*ad. This is a double-edged sword since I can’t confront him or seek corroboration from him but it means that I _can_ tell myself that I’m definitely safe from him when I am feeling most scared. delian
Mick. delian Lionheart — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
– "Many a mickle makes a muckle".
Response:
[about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN
Mosaics, So far I have been able to prove out all but one thing that I remember. It does seem strange that our memories are being repeatedly questioned by the mental health community. These very same individuals will tell you that most DID patients that they come across can tell them almost verbatim what they (the doctors) have said during their therapy sessions. The only exceptions being when the patient dissociates and cannot recall what they blanked out. These same doctors also admit that most patients suffering with DID are of above average intelligence. This is starting to remind me of how Freud treated his patients. He denied that his patients had been ab*sed s*xually and that it was just fantasy. I think that some doctors need to rethink their positions. Questioning the patient’s memory is ab*sive in my eyes. For me the most healing thing has been being able to finally tell my story to individuals who do not question the validity of what I know in my heart to be true. Normal individuals are never put through such an inquistion. People that have been ab*sed need to feel like they can trust someone, maybe for the first time in their lives. I feel that a doctor questioning whether or not your memories are accurate is detrimental. I think that the patient would think that the doctor thought of them as a liar, and that would take away any trust that the patient had shown. Sometimes the memories are so fragmented that it is hard for the patient to access the whole memory intact. Fl*shb*cks are hardly ever questioned in this way. I wonder why? Good subject Sierra, andregide
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lionhearts comments are quite correct. In my therapy it was the pretherapy memories of happy childhood that turned out to be mostly false. I have documentation for all the awful stuff and yet my power of denial of it (even though i never forgot a lot of it) is incredible. On another tack: I had an impossible recovered memory of taking a mule into the grand canyon. I know we were never there. But i discovered there was a ny amusement park called freedomland with the "bronx grand canyon mule ride" And indeed I did do that . I found that out via accident (a tvshow) but then I completely remembered everything about the trip and it was real. recovered memory is so strange. best penny posting with fear but posting
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emailed/posted Why? Why are the memories of childhood trauma questioned? I think it’s because some people would rather believe this world is a wonderful place where nothing bad ever happens to children. _I_ *know* bad things happen to people and to children, and I *still* have a hard time believing anything bad happened to me. Even if a person walked up to me today and admitted it, I’d still have my doubts. My work is to trust myself and forget about every body else’s opinions. Corroboration wouldn’t help me, I don’t think. What has helped me the most is unconditional acceptance as me as a person whatever my memories are. It has also helped to have someone who’d listen and ask questions without me feeling like I’m sitting on the interrogation seat. The corroboration that I look for now is internal. If I’m able to release negative emotions and work though troublesome feelings and nightmares, that’s proof enough to me that considering these memories is a benefit. What difference does it make to me if I have corroboration or not? None. I’m still stuck with the work either way. With all the pressure to find corroboration, I can certainly understand why anyone who has pursued the person who hurt them would make an about face and recant the whole thing. I have no intention of getting myself into that sort of no-win situation. I’ve made a lot more progress in reaching my goals since I gave up my quest for proof. my 2 cents, ymmv, {cherish} a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN Mosaics, So far I have been able to prove out all but one thing that I remember. It does seem strange that our memories are being repeatedly questioned by the mental health community. These very same individuals will tell you that most DID patients that they come across can tell them almost verbatim what they (the doctors) have said during their therapy sessions. The only exceptions being when the patient dissociates and cannot recall what they blanked out. These same doctors also admit that most patients suffering with DID are of above average intelligence. This is starting to remind me of how Freud treated his patients. He denied that his patients had been ab*sed s*xually and that it was just fantasy. I think that some doctors need to rethink their positions. Questioning the patient’s memory is ab*sive in my eyes. For me the most healing thing has been being able to finally tell my story to individuals who do not question the validity of what I know in my heart to be true. Normal individuals are never put through such an inquistion. People that have been ab*sed need to feel like they can trust someone, maybe for the first time in their lives. I feel that a doctor questioning whether or not your memories are accurate is detrimental. I think that the patient would think that the doctor thought of them as a liar, and that would take away any trust that the patient had shown. Sometimes the memories are so fragmented that it is hard for the patient to access the whole memory intact. Fl*shb*cks are hardly ever questioned in this way. I wonder why? Good subject Sierra, andregide
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Hello Penny, I liked your message about the "bronx grand canyon mule ride." What a lively imagination you must have had as a child. The only story that comes close to unusual children’s rides is : When I was little there were still drive-in movies. At one drive-in during the summer they had several rides, including a ferris wheel. My favorite ride there was the stagecoach. It was driven by a huge man and there were Shetland ponies instead of regular horses that were harnessed to the coach. Thanks for reminding me, I really can see the blond ponies and the little coach and the large man perched precariously on top. Glad to see you posting, andregide
Response:
I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory.
I want to clarify your interpretation of my original statement (which was "The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available"). IMO there is no evidence to support the position that recovered memories should be assumed to be **less** accurate than other memory. However, there are two caveats that come from the research literature on hypnosis and cognitive psychology. (1) Certain factors may affect the accuracy of recall, whether memories are recovered or continuous (i.e., always remembered, never forgotten). Under certain conditions, some people have been shown to alter the details of memory when leading questions have been asked during the recall process. HOWEVER: In studies of this effect, typically only a minority of research participants altered their answers in response to the interviewers’ leading questions. Elizabeth Loftus, Ph.D., is responsible for much good research in this area, most of it predating her involvement with the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and their mission. Dr. Loftus has also conducted several studies which she believes are a good demonstration of the way in which repeated probing, leading, and questioning by interviewers can produce a complete memory for a never-happened event in some people. These studies are usually called the "lost in a shopping mall" studies. Again, only a minority of the subjects in these studies "recovered" the pseudomemory. I also believe that the conditions under which the research was created bear little resemblence to the typical psychotherapy situation; therefore, IMO one cannot generalize those findings to the clinical setting. (2) The hypnosis literature suggests that some people can recall more details of a real event under hypnosis, but that the recalled information includes inaccurate as well as factual material. Thus, the **number** of details of a single event recalled under hypnosis may go up, but the inclusion of some inaccurate information means that the **percentage** of accurately recalled details is less for some people when the event is recalled under hypnosis. Furthermore, the level of confidence in the accuracy of recall (i.e., asking people, "How confident are you in the accuracy of what you’ve recalled?") tends to go up when a memory is recalled under hypnosis. Summarizing, some people remember more information about a memory under hypnosis, but their overall level of accuracy may go down while their confidence in the accuracy of their recollection may go up. BUT: Some people accurately recall events under hypnosis, so hypnotically recalled material should not be assumed prima facie to be inaccurate. Peter — Clinical Psychologist President-Elect, International Society for the Study of Dissociation 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Hts., OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
Response:
And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN
This is where there is some disagreement among professionals about what to do (which has nothing to do with what it feels like to have these memories, to want to have some certainty about them, and to be unable to come up with sources of information). There is a small minority of vocal people who think that therapists ought to tell patients these memories are probably false. There is also a small minority of people on the other extreme, who believe in the statement, "If you think you were abused but can’t remember it, you probably were" (which was in the 1st edition of Courage to Heal, but I think was removed and clarified in later editions). However, most professional organizations who have issued statements on this issue state that the therapist should remain neutral in the clinical situation about the accuracy of the patient’s memories. — Clinical Psychologist President-Elect, International Society for the Study of Dissociation 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Hts., OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory. I want to clarify your interpretation of my original statement (which was "The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available"). IMO there is no evidence to support the position that recovered memories should be assumed to be **less** accurate than other memory. However, there are two caveats that come from the research literature on hypnosis and cognitive psychology. (1) Certain factors may affect the accuracy of recall, whether memories are recovered or continuous (i.e., always remembered, never forgotten). Under certain conditions, some people have been shown to alter the details of memory when leading questions have been asked during the recall process. HOWEVER: In studies of this effect, typically only a minority of research participants altered their answers in response to the interviewers’ leading questions.
this sounds like it’s the t’pists problem, then, not the client. maybe you guys need some kinda "guaranteed to not ask leading questions" certificate, so that clients don’t lose their credibility cuz a t’pist makes a freudian slip. Elizabeth Loftus, Ph.D., is responsible for much good research in this area, most of it predating her involvement with the F*lse Memory Syndrome Foundation and their mission.
i believe it is stephen braude’s book that mentioned that there was no fm syndrome prior to it’s inception by its founders. he also pointed out inconsistencies and illogic in some of loftus’s work. Dr. Loftus has also conducted several studies which she believes are a
several? she believes? she gets to single-handedly set the standard for the rest of the world? :/ good demonstration of the way in which repeated probing, leading, and questioning by interviewers can produce a complete memory for a never-happened event in some people. These studies are usually called the "lost in a shopping mall" studies. Again, only a minority of the subjects in these studies "recovered" the pseudomemory.
braude talks about this, and its limitations as theory. I also believe that the conditions under which the research was created bear little resemblence to the typical psychotherapy situation; therefore, IMO one cannot generalize those findings to the clinical setting. (2) The hypnosis literature suggests that some people can recall more details of a real event under hypnosis, but that the recalled information includes inaccurate as well as factual material. Thus, the **number** of details of a single event recalled under hypnosis may go up, but the inclusion of some inaccurate information means that the **percentage** of accurately recalled details is less for some people when the event is recalled under hypnosis.
braude talked about a factoid used by loftus to show that memories can be innacurate. it was a baseball player who remembered a significant event as occuring at night (or maybe day, whichever, it was actually the opposite). he points out the negligibility of the detail within the whole of the memory. the baseball player remembered the events and place which were of primary importance. Furthermore, the level of confidence in the accuracy of recall (i.e., asking people, "How confident are you in the accuracy of what you’ve recalled?") tends to go up when a memory is recalled under hypnosis. Summarizing, some people remember more information about a memory under hypnosis, but their overall level of accuracy may go down while their confidence in the accuracy of their recollection may go up. BUT: Some people accurately recall events under hypnosis, so hypnotically recalled material should not be assumed prima facie to be inaccurate.
i would certainly hope not, else why would it even be practiced? "recovering" memories certainly seems to cover a lot of ground: hypnosis, body work, what else? choddi Peter — Clinical Psychologist President-Elect, International Society for the Study of Dissociation 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Hts., OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
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Response:
snippage… [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available.
The following is really focused on just the last sentence Peter said above. If I’ve totally lost the context because of this I’m sorry… I think I like the way I personally think of memory work (as I was taught to think of it by my past three t’pists). The details of memory may/may not be accurate, but that isn’t important. That you remember eating chocolate cake for your sixth birthday or that you remember that it was raining during a car accident won’t give you enough depth to a memory no matter _what_ the memory is (heck, that you remember it was Joe or Tom or Sally involved in the memory isn’t all that important come to think of it…) What _is_ important is its impact on you the individual having the memory, what happened to your life/ beliefs/interactions with others, etc because of that memory and your affective response to that memory. For example, I recently told my t’pist about a time when I was seven and I was switching quite often and in a very chaotic way (lots of time lost and such). One time I lost time only to regain it running across the playground yelling ‘grandma’ to my teacher. I was not only completely confused but totally embarassed and humiliated about this!!!! As I remember it, my teacher was _very_ nice about it and said it was a great compliment that I would think of her as my grandma *smiles* There is not one aspect of this memory that is important to validate. It is totally unimportant if it’s at all true. What _is_ important is that it’s a) a positive memory of an interaction I had with an adult, b) full of emotions (something that used to be very difficult for me to get in touch with), c) and something that explains to me why I have some specific problems now interacting with others. For all I know the entire memory is a metaphor and never happened (although I believe that it did happen because it feels so true inside). Or maybe it happened _exactly_ as I remember it. It doesn’t matter. I can use the memory to learn and grow regardless. Most important to my t’pists (and I’m surprised Peter didn’t mention this…) is that memories depict a pattern, whether they are valid or otherwise. Even my _positive_ memories of my childhood demonstrate that my parents were clearly incapable of being parents (and believe me, that was an eye opener when I realized it!!). Even my positive memories demonstrate that _something_ wasn’t ‘normal’ with my childhood. The details aren’t nearly as important as the overall gestalt. If every time a person talks about dogs they do so with a positive slant to their conversation, one can assume and use the idea that the person feels/ reacts postively about dogs. The details of _why_ this is may or may not be relevant or verifiable (here’s a tangent, ever notice that people never wonder if their positive memories are real?) what is important is that the person has a positive mind set about dogs. If the person always talks negatively about dogs one can assume that the person feels/reacts negatively to dogs, and that may be useful in healing and growth. Corroborating evidence sounds like memory work has to be hung up with legal considerations. I think a t’pist who is so concerned with that aspect of treatment is missing something vital. If and when a client mentions legal action _then_ the t’pist can worry about it and discuss it. But if a t’pist has always taken the stand (and taught the client to do so as well) that memories are tools we can use to learn patterns from, then the legal considerations will fall into place if they are necessary. Hmm… kind of like dream work come to think of it… Rainbow Colors (Jill) — The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.
Response:
Thank you, Jill, I have not been happy about much of what I have seen posted on this subject. When DID is diagnosed, one of the first big tasks is to overcome denial. I didn’t _want_ to remember these things, but I was down at the bottom of a black hole. It was taking so much energy to maintain denial that there wasn’t any left to live on. The psychiatrist who diagnosed my DID just _asked me_ if I had been s*x**lly abused. All of the parts that could answer yes were so thrilled that I couldn’t keep the secret or the other voices hidden any longer. Still, when they spoke, I knew that they were part of me because they had always been here–I think I mean co-conscious feeling states but unsure because I have never specifically discussed this detail with other DID. I went through classic PTSD for nearly a year–new flashbacks or abreactions or insights. Did many reasonable and some foolish things to help selves feel more safe and less anxious. If t had suggested she did not believe me I would have probably destroyed myself. While memory may be manipulated, I would never let someone know I doubted them, probably wouldn’t actually doubt them either. With the words coming out of my first shrinks mouth, I knew it was true and he knew it was true from observing me in three different sessions. I will always acknowledge that some details of memory may be incorrect it’s been over 40 years for many of these memories now. In my case, family moved annually and I was the first of four babies born in six years. I could locate and time my memories fairly accurately by associating which sibling is the baby with the house we lived in at that time. Also had never forgotten some aspects of abuse that I had explained away but always knew my explanation wasn’t quite right. (After r*p* by father at age 15 I took a hot bath and went to bed. I had some bleeding and I explained to myself and mother that I got my period and went to bed early because of cramps. Oddly (?) I got another period two weeks later.) There is some good literature on the nature and process of repressed memory and recovering these memories. Can’t name it just now–sorry. I frequently remembered bad things from child’s visual perspective and young frame of mind reference points. Sorry, must go to bed, brain shut down. Goodnight and ((((((((((((((((Hugs))))))))))))))))) to all that want them. In Peace & Love, Nandina – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – snippage… [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. The following is really focused on just the last sentence Peter said above. If I’ve totally lost the context because of this I’m sorry… I think I like the way I personally think of memory work (as I was taught to think of it by my past three t’pists). The details of memory may/may not be accurate, but that isn’t important. That you remember eating chocolate cake for your sixth birthday or that you remember that it was raining during a car accident won’t give you enough depth to a memory no matter _what_ the memory is (heck, that you remember it was Joe or Tom or Sally involved in the memory isn’t all that important come to think of it…) What _is_ important is its impact on you the individual having the memory, what happened to your life/ beliefs/interactions with others, etc because of that memory and your affective response to that memory. For example, I recently told my t’pist about a time when I was seven and I was switching quite often and in a very chaotic way (lots of time lost and such). One time I lost time only to regain it running across the playground yelling ‘grandma’ to my teacher. I was not only completely confused but totally embarassed and humiliated about this!!!! As I remember it, my teacher was _very_ nice about it and said it was a great compliment that I would think of her as my grandma *smiles* There is not one aspect of this memory that is important to validate. It is totally unimportant if it’s at all true. What _is_ important is that it’s a) a positive memory of an interaction I had with an adult, b) full of emotions (something that used to be very difficult for me to get in touch with), c) and something that explains to me why I have some specific problems now interacting with others. For all I know the entire memory is a metaphor and never happened (although I believe that it did happen because it feels so true inside). Or maybe it happened _exactly_ as I remember it. It doesn’t matter. I can use the memory to learn and grow regardless. Most important to my t’pists (and I’m surprised Peter didn’t mention this…) is that memories depict a pattern, whether they are valid or otherwise. Even my _positive_ memories of my childhood demonstrate that my parents were clearly incapable of being parents (and believe me, that was an eye opener when I realized it!!). Even my positive memories demonstrate that _something_ wasn’t ‘normal’ with my childhood. The details aren’t nearly as important as the overall gestalt. If every time a person talks about dogs they do so with a positive slant to their conversation, one can assume and use the idea that the person feels/ reacts postively about dogs. The details of _why_ this is may or may not be relevant or verifiable (here’s a tangent, ever notice that people never wonder if their positive memories are real?) what is important is that the person has a positive mind set about dogs. If the person always talks negatively about dogs one can assume that the person feels/reacts negatively to dogs, and that may be useful in healing and growth. Corroborating evidence sounds like memory work has to be hung up with legal considerations. I think a t’pist who is so concerned with that aspect of treatment is missing something vital. If and when a client mentions legal action _then_ the t’pist can worry about it and discuss it. But if a t’pist has always taken the stand (and taught the client to do so as well) that memories are tools we can use to learn patterns from, then the legal considerations will fall into place if they are necessary. Hmm… kind of like dream work come to think of it… Rainbow Colors (Jill) — The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing we are becoming white light.
Response:
And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN This is where there is some disagreement among professionals about what to do (which has nothing to do with what it feels like to have these memories, to want to have some certainty about them, and to be unable to come up with sources of information).
I bet there is disagreement. Perhaps, when it comes to child ab*se this is where it becomes tricky territory. I doubt therapists question positive memories of any shape or form. Also, the availability of independent documentation is getting harder and harder to find which frustrates efforts even further. For instance, within the past twenty years, there has been an explosion of medical insurance coverages. In the 60’s & early 70’s, children pretty much saw a general practitioner as did all other members of the same family. This is rarely the case now. Jumping doctors, coverages, etc makes tracking evidence even harder, if it was recorded at all (remember social mores/context). School records are even harder to access. The mandatory reporting of teachers, police, therapists, etc IS very new (relative to the social mores that parent’s "discipline" was to go unquestioned). In the 60’s, child protective agencies were quite literally, in their infancy. In my case, I know from siblings that they were constantly around and that all they did was do a lot of writing, take pictures and leave. I’d like to see those writeups and pictures of ab*se. I’ve checked with the county where we lived and they do not keep records passed a certain time. They destroy them. I guess for me (and prolly others), what frustrates me most is knowing independent documentation existed at one time and bc of the passage of time, they no longer exist. I would like to see a new law instituted where once a child reaches the age of consent, they are entitled to have the originals and/or copies of ALL documentation of their childhood sent to them for their keeping. As it stands now, children of yesteryear are the ones at a continued loss in substantiating anything. There is a small minority of vocal people who think that therapists ought to tell patients these memories are probably false. There is also a small minority of people on the other extreme, who believe in the statement, "If you think you were abused but can’t remember it, you probably were" (which was in the 1st edition of Courage to Heal, but I think was removed and clarified in later editions).
I understand. However, most professional organizations who have issued statements on this issue state that the therapist should remain neutral in the clinical situation about the accuracy of the patient’s memories.
I understand the role of neutrality and it’s benefit to treatment. I’d be interested in your comments, if any, on my recent post at asd titled, "memories/corroboration/multiplicity". I think my confusion and struggle to understand something as it pertains to multiplicity is valid somehow. Thanks for responding, Peter. Sierra of TN
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – emailed/posted Why? Why are the memories of childhood trauma questioned? I think it’s because some people would rather believe this world is a wonderful place where nothing bad ever happens to children. _I_ *know* bad things happen to people and to children, and I *still* have a hard time believing anything bad happened to me. Even if a person walked up to me today and admitted it, I’d still have my doubts. My work is to trust myself and forget about every body else’s opinions. Corroboration wouldn’t help me, I don’t think. What has helped me the most is unconditional acceptance as me as a person whatever my memories are. It has also helped to have someone who’d listen and ask questions without me feeling like I’m sitting on the interrogation seat. The corroboration that I look for now is internal. If I’m able to release negative emotions and work though troublesome feelings and nightmares, that’s proof enough to me that considering these memories is a benefit. What difference does it make to me if I have corroboration or not? None. I’m still stuck with the work either way. With all the pressure to find corroboration, I can certainly understand why anyone who has pursued the person who hurt them would make an about face and recant the whole thing. I have no intention of getting myself into that sort of no-win situation. I’ve made a lot more progress in reaching my goals since I gave up my quest for proof. my 2 cents, ymmv, {cherish} a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z
cherish, Corroboration has been extremely helpful for me to recover memories. I do not use confrontation or coercion to find out the truth about my past. I find therapists who not in the too distant past told patients to confront their ab*sers were way off the beam. My search for the truth started two years ago. I do not spend every waking moment in pursuit of what really happened in the past. Associations and familiar patterns that are in the present lead me to people that I knew in the past, and I contact them. It is basically like a treasure hunt. You have a map that has many clues that will lead you to the treasure chest. What I have found to be amazing is that the people that I have contacted were happy to hear from me. Not only did they tell me that my memories were accurate, they intuitively knew what I could not recall. They sensed something was wrong when I lived near them and kept in close contact,but at the time they were too polite to mention it to me. This condition is not as well hidden from people that we know as well as we would like to think it is. They told me things in the exact areas that I had blacked out, and they knew it. This was of tremedous help in letting me know what circumstances led me to not being able to recall certain events in my life. It has helped me in figuring out my tr*gger map. What tr*ggers are most likely to make me dissociate. In ab*sive homes you are not given the luxury of asking direct questions without causing a turmoil. I now ask my father questions like: "Papa do you remember the cliff?" And he will say, Yes I remember, it was a long time ago and things were not good then." I almost lost my l*fe as a child at the cliffs of Monterey. I dissociated and found myself standing on the very edge of one of the cliffs looking down. So in a very soft and gentle way once you have established some trust with your family you can ask subtle questions, and they will respond back with subtle answers. If you go at family members in a direct way, it brings up old feelings and wounds that are harmful to everyone involved. Everyone will become defensive; nothing to gain from that type of encounter. To know the truth is important to me, andregide – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN Mosaics, So far I have been able to prove out all but one thing that I remember. It does seem strange that our memories are being repeatedly questioned by the mental health community. These very same individuals will tell you that most DID patients that they come across can tell them almost verbatim what they (the doctors) have said during their therapy sessions. The only exceptions being when the patient dissociates and cannot recall what they blanked out. These same doctors also admit that most patients suffering with DID are of above average intelligence. This is starting to remind me of how Freud treated his patients. He denied that his patients had been ab*sed s*xually and that it was just fantasy. I think that some doctors need to rethink their positions. Questioning the patient’s memory is ab*sive in my eyes. For me the most healing thing has been being able to finally tell my story to individuals who do not question the validity of what I know in my heart to be true. Normal individuals are never put through such an inquistion. People that have been ab*sed need to feel like they can trust someone, maybe for the first time in their lives. I feel that a doctor questioning whether or not your memories are accurate is detrimental. I think that the patient would think that the doctor thought of them as a liar, and that would take away any trust that the patient had shown. Sometimes the memories are so fragmented that it is hard for the patient to access the whole memory intact. Fl*shb*cks are hardly ever questioned in this way. I wonder why? Good subject Sierra, andregide — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
Response:
Lionheart, Can you say more about what you mean by memories give a sense of identity? I have my own ideas and I’d like to hear yours. : o) Sierra of TN – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [about memory retrieval/body work] Some people reportedly retrieve childhood material during rolfing and other massage techniques, but there is no evidence to indicate that such memories should be considered accurate or reliable. The only way to know for sure if **any** memory is accurate or not is to see if corroborating information is available. And if there’s no one willing to corroborate or no corroboration is available, then what? Sierra of TN I find this statemennt of Peter’s quite triggering, as I suspect many do. However, I take heart from his double asteriscked **any** that he means dissociated/recovered memories can be trusted tot he same degree a person might trust any other memory. All memories, whether you’ve always had them (the yellow dress I received and wore for my seventh birthday party ) or recently had them come up, can be treated the same. There might be some errors in details. So what. People have to trust their memories, more or less, because memories are what give us a sense of identity. That’s my take on it. Lionheart
Response:
my T (who really is called DR T!) says that loftus was kicked out of the APA for sloppy research. Is this true? I also know she got very high expert witness fees and lots of fame. For me, i am the only one who wondered about "false memory" in the face of overwhelming evidence, corroboration, ect. But goddess did i ever deny! Even though i never forgot a lot. The name of the game in DID is denial. penny
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