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I also agree that the evidence out there shows that PTSD does have biochemical components and if you are having agoraphobia and panic attacks, what difference does it make what the heck you call it: PD or PTSD?? The net effect is the same.
Maybe some PD is really PTSD. It stands to reason that PTSD is a disorder with a biological component as well as not everybody develops PTSD under exactly the same cirumstances. But PTSD in its *purest form* is distinct from PD in that it involves constant re-living of the traumatic experience that triggered the disorder. Philip – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
Hi Chip, I don’t believe that I had an underlying problem. I think there is a possible hormonal connection and my PD developed when I was working way too hard, as well as juggling other roles and responsibilities. I don’t want to waste a lot of energy searching for "the answer". I have the condition. I have had CBT, hypnotherapy, modified my lifestyle and I use medication. Seems to work for me. Most of the time anyway. Accepting the condition works best for me. Meryl
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Drgnswve wrote Same here. My abuse came after the anxiety was already entrenched. I actually think I put myself in a position where I was easily abused because of my anxiety. It gave me some measure of control to be able to So, I don’t credit the abuse with causing the anxiety. I actually think it was the other way around. I don’t think I’m understanding this. You think your anxiety caused your abuse.. how?
Hi Renee, Not necessarily "caused" it, but put me in a position where I was more vulnerable to it. I was always anxious and desperately needed "comfort" that my parents could not supply for said anxiety and some depression. So, there was a person who was much older than me who took advantage of that need for conmfort….of any kind, and turned it into something that was abuse. At the time, I was too young to know any better. Also, like I said, I felt as though I was the one in control of the situation. When, in fact, I was the victim. NEVER underestimate the cunning of a pedophile. They are some of the best, most patient liars intheworld. They can turn things around on you to the point where what they are doing seems like a gift or love and caring. They prey on children who are in bad situations. Who crave attention and support. So, that is how I believe my anxiety made me a victim. Regards, Jen
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Drgnswve wrote Just to play devil’s advocate here 
, how do you know that this would be the case if you have never tried a course of meds before?
<snip A major part of my therapy and my recovery has involved Feeling what I did not allow myself to feel for numerous years – I see it as vital.
Yes, it is vital (for you…for some, it may not be). And, it’s good that you are able to do this. But, then what do you *do* with it once you "feel" it? Is there any resolution? For me, the meds made it much easier to deal with "issues" that I wanted to deal with from my past because I was not feeling panicky all the time. Also, it made my life much more "normal" so I quit feeling like I was in some way a victim of this disorder. It’s wonderful that medications were able to help you so much 
I always appreciate hearing what’s helped folks, but IMO what works for one doesn’t necessarily make it a good treatment for everyone, especially when diagnoses are different, even if some of the symptoms are the same.
That’s very true. But, you can’t say, nor can your therapist say that meds would not help you if you have never tried them. They may be the greatest breakthrough for you too. Or, they may be a complete waste of time and effort. It truly is a YMMV thing and no one knows what their "mileage" is going to be until they have tried soemthing. That’s my objection to your thereapist saying so definitively that you "DO NOT" need meds because they will "block your feelings". I will bet that your therapist is not a licensed psychiatrist, and, thus not able to prescribe meds. Hence, he/she would have to refer you to someone else…..mmm, maybe a bit of self-interest here…possibly. But, maybe not. ::shrug:: It’s just something to consider. They certainly did not "block" any feelings I had or have. My basic fear is one that many have mentioned they have personally experienced – that medications numb them to the point of feeling nothing. Now, I know that ideally, they go back to the p-doc and alter the medications until they find something that helps without making them numb. It just seems like a lengthy unnecessary process FOR ME right now.
And the process you have been going through ahs not been "lengthy"…and expensive (insurance or not)? For some of us, finding the right med is simple,easy and quick. And, it works fast and we feel better and are able to tackle issues within a few weeks that we had not been able to before that because of the anxiety. Are you sure your "issues" are real and not memories that the therapist helped you recall that were possibly skewed in some manner? No offense Renee, but there is a large body of evidence that suggests "suppressed memories" are many times not real, but imagined memories brought out by the suggestion of a therapist. good honest question – I appreciate that. My memories are most definitely real. <snip
That’s good. It was just the kind of reality check that most anyone would ask given the circumstances. You mean, like were there witnesses? My parents were smarter than that. There is no one to colaberate what they did to me behind closed doors, though my brother has indicated to me that he also was abused. I trust myself here.
Good. Again, just asking the questions that you have probably alredy asked yourself and have been asked. What is right for one person is not right for the next. As it has been said here numerous times
Absolutely! YMMV is the rule. We are all different and one cannot make generalizations. <snip And I think I’ve done a good job of doing that, to a point.
Only you can be the judge of that. Is it ever done? No, likely not.
Actually, I do think that you get "done" with certain issues. But, life always presents new ones. <snip For me, with my diagnosis, this is where I need to be and what I need to be doing right now. And some days it really sucks – don’t get me wrong. :/
If that is your feelings about it, then you are certainly entitled to do this any way you see fit and that works for you. Many of us just question whether you are putting yoursellf through more pain and grief than may be necessary to acconplish the same thing. At the beginning of my treatment, my p-doc told me that the door to freedom was at the bottom of the swamp – in the swamp was all the memories and feelings I’ve been trying to avoid all my life. I thought he was crazy!
Well, I can certainly agree with him that a lot of our freedome comes from mucking out the bottom of the swamp. But I do not think that that is all there is to these disorders. <snip Thus far, I have made this progress without meds. Has it been hard? sure! would have been hard with meds? I imagine.
Yeah, it’s hard no matter how you do it. But, some ways can be harder than others. so i’ve babbled on a long time and i don’t know if i’ve made any sense – i’m sure you’ll let me know, and for that i am grateful
Yes, you make perfect sense Renee. I just am the sort of person who tends to question blanket statements….like the one your therapist made about you. They leave no room for other possibilities and options. Whatever works is what you need to do. Best! Jen
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I also agree that the evidence out there shows that PTSD does have biochemical components and if you are having agoraphobia and panic attacks, what difference does it make what the heck you call it: PD or PTSD?? The net effect is the same.
Well, the symptoms are different, and probably the underlying biochemistry is different as well. People with PTSD tend to show the sort of endocrine abnormalities associated with depression, for example, and these are not seen in PD. I also learned something interesting about the way they dream that is different from normal dreaming and explains why, when I had PTSD in college, I didn’t have "bizarre" dreams – instead, I had nightmares that replayed the trauma precisely (or close to precisely) – whereas sleep in PD is generally normal, although somewhat more disturbed than in nonanxious folks (not surprisingly). But yeah, the dichotomy, the idea that there are "biochemical" disorders and "psychological" ones, is a false one, and ultimately will prove fruitless. There’s a range of possible causes, with most cases probably resulting from a combination, but all disorders demand effective treatment, IMHO. -elizabeth
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The goal of therapy for treatment of agorophobia and panic is to learn coping mechanisms. The goal of psychodynamic therapy (analysis and it’s variants) is to find the underlying problem cathect it or transfer it to the trusting therapist and vavavoom your cured. Very few people find this type of therapy useful (except therapists) so best to ask do meds allow you to learn to cope– tough question- some people revert back to anxiety when meds are stopped others do fine- if you had to take meds forever to be free of anxiety I would guess anybody would say yes. The problem is that from a percentage basis the meds only help to a point they are ancillary-so it’s really a moot point- good therapy of any kind is good therapy- the goal is to change ourselves to deal with our hypersensitive nervous systems Lm
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Drgnswve wrote Same here. My abuse came after the anxiety was already entrenched. I actually think I put myself in a position where I was easily abused because of my anxiety. It gave me some measure of control to be able to So, I don’t credit the abuse with causing the anxiety. I actually think it was the other way around.
I don’t think I’m understanding this. You think your anxiety caused your abuse.. how? blessings, Renee
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Hi Charley, I believe that I was born anxious. My mother tells of how she could not tub-bathe me Until I was over a year old because I was afraid. By the time I was five my nickname was "worrywart".
Me too. I remember having anxiety attacks while I was still in a crib. I slept with my mother until I was quite old because I was afraid of EVERYTHING. My anxiety knew no bounds. I was so phobic as a child that I used to pick the little green edges off of potato chips because I thought they would poison me. I had heard somewhere that the green parts of a potato plant were poisonious! I am third generation (at least!) with an anxiety disorder and am now looking at having my 9 year-old daughter assessed.
Same here: Grandmother, father, me and two daughters. Depression runs in the family too. My grandmother was adopted, so I can’t trace it any further back. I have issues involving abuse which I remembered before I sought therapy and used as a "socially accepted" excuse (in my mind) to seek therapy when my anxiety was out of control. I have discussed these issues to death with various doctors and have come to the conclusion (on my own) that the anxiety existed before the abuse and that the two are really not connected. I am what I am: a product of my genetic code. I have to play the cards that I have been dealt.
Same here. My abuse came after the anxiety was already entrenched. I actually think I put myself in a position where I was easily abused because of my anxiety. It gave me some measure of control to be able to control the actions of an adult. (I was molested by my neighbor and his three sons.) I had not control at home. My father was an alcoholic and my mother rather cold. I was also an only child. The only real caring family I had ws my paternal grandfather (who nevr cared about my father…really odd), but at 11, she "turned" on me due to illness. It was within the next year that I was sexually abused…and, it continued for a number of years. So, I don’t credit the abuse with causing the anxiety. I actually think it was the other way around. As for my parents, they were not outright physically abusive. They were emotionally abusive, all of my life…and still are. And, it’s just something I have looked at and try to come to terms with. Sometimes I can, other times it is harder. But, since two year ago, when I started the meds, I was able to step outside of my self and see my parents for what they are: products of their shitty upbringings. So, in a way, they have done the best they can given what they had at the time. What this did was free me from having to feel guilty all the time; thinking it was my fault. I realized that they did not have the capacity to give me what I needed as I was growing up, nor do they now. And, I feel rather sorry for them. And, I have a degree of compassion toward them because of this. It was hard getting here, but worth it. I have even come to feel pity for the man who molested me and subjected his sons to the situation also. How depraved must one be to have sex with a 12 year old girl and then to make your 11, 9 and 7 year old sons do it too???? So, anxiety can be there and be a cause rather than a root for abuse. And, this in no way makes the victim responsible for the abuse. It is just a reason, among many. Regards, Jen
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Shapere wrote <snipped for space It’s nice to think that there is an end, but a lot of people here who have PD and other ADs that were triggered by childhood abuse have found that they don’t go away after the door has been opened. I hope it turns out to be different for you. -elizabeth I agree with this very informative post Elizabeth. Having dealt with all the childhood baggage, it made no difference whatsoever in my panic disorder, YMMV of course. That’s not to say that it didn’t help in other ways, because it did. Without meds I may have never reached a place where I could deal with my issues. Ray
I have to put a "third" in on elizabeth’s and Ray’s posts here. I too went through therapy…for years…and nothing really helped. And, it wasn’t that I didn’t try. It’s just that therapy was not the end all solution for this problem. I learned more about myself about a year and a half ago after a few months on Klonopin and Xanax than I had in all the the therapy sessions I ever went to. What I did was take long walks in the woods and just contemplate all the *history* and all the *abuse* I had suffered as a child and as a young adult. I truly believ the meds allowed me to do this. I cam to terms with my past this way. On my own, on medication. I didn’t *bury* anything…I actually dug it up and let go of it. Wow! What a liberating exerience. So, to those of you who assume that drugs just "treat the symptoms" or "numb your feelings", I can say that for some of us it is just the opposite. They give us the panic free breathing room that allows us to focus inward and resolve issue without the constant threat of PAs. For me, this was critical. I had been wasting all of my time focusing on my PA’s and agoraphobia to the point where I never would have progressed without taking the meds. I also agree that the evidence out there shows that PTSD does have biochemical components and if you are having agoraphobia and panic attacks, what difference does it make what the heck you call it: PD or PTSD?? The net effect is the same. Also, elizabeth said something to the effect that all of these disorder *remit* over time. Yep, again. My PD has cycled from serious to not so bad to serious, etc. for 23 years +. The only time that I *know* I will be able to function, not have PA’s, feel "normal" and can really deal effectively with any of my problems is when I am on the meds or when I am in "remission" from the PD. Why the hell should I wait around for a remission when I can make it happen myself and get better NOW? Like elizabeth said, if you haven’t tried it (meds), you really don’t know for sure. (liberally quoting…;-)) As always, YMMV and this is all IMO. Best to All, Jen
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I believe that I was born anxious. My mother tells of how she could not tub-bathe me Until I was over a year old because I was afraid. By the time I was five my nickname was "worrywart". I am third generation (at least!) with an anxiety disorder and am now looking at having my 9 year-old daughter assessed. I have issues involving abuse which I remembered before I sought therapy and used as a "socially accepted" excuse (in my mind) to seek therapy when my anxiety was out of control. I have discussed these issues to death with various doctors and have come to the conclusion (on my own) that the anxiety existed before the abuse and that the two are really not connected. I am what I am: a product of my genetic code. I have to play the cards that I have been dealt. Charley
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
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Shapere wrote <snipped for space It’s nice to think that there is an end, but a lot of people here who have PD and other ADs that were triggered by childhood abuse have found that they don’t go away after the door has been opened. I hope it turns out to be different for you. -elizabeth
I agree with this very informative post Elizabeth. Having dealt with all the childhood baggage, it made no difference whatsoever in my panic disorder, YMMV of course. That’s not to say that it didn’t help in other ways, because it did. Without meds I may have never reached a place where I could deal with my issues. Ray Love never claims, it ever gives; love never suffers, never resents, never revenges itself. Where there is love there is life; hatred leads to destruction.
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writes: Are you sure? I don’t mean to be argumentative, but how do you know what is a natural feeling and what isn’t? Aren’t they all real? Based on my experiences, this certainly seems natural response to me. Certainly not preferable, and there are other options, which is why I keep working it at.
You’re right, it’s a sort of silly expression. What I mean to say is, outside of these twisted circumstances, those feelings don’t exist. They’re part of the disease, they’re not part of what human beings normally experience. I’ve experienced grief, loneliness, loss, rejection, anger, fear, etc., just like anyone else has – I know the difference. I can see how it would be hard to tell the difference if you’ve always felt that way since you were a child, though. I am sure this is true for you, and I am happy that you have found relief from that combination. I am feeling some pressure, and I am not sure if it’s coming from you or me, that because this worked for you, I should do it too. Again, I have problems with this type of logic.
I don’t know if you "should" or "shouldn’t," but I do think you shouldn’t knock it if you haven’t tried it. I also do think that you’re just mistaken in believing that taking meds would interfere with the therapy process. There’s no reason to suppose this. When I was depressed, all I could do in therapy was lie on that couch and cry about this thing that was eating me up. I NEEDED to lay on the couch and cry. Afterwards, I was able to talk about it and process it and put it away. And then onto the next thing I needed to cry about. To me, this is the therapeutic process. I realize this is defined differently for everyone.
If you feel like you’re getting better that way, that’s great. For me it was just pretty ridiculous. When you quoted me, you separated the part about just crying from the part about getting worse and not being able to cry, but that’s all that happened. Eventually it would start getting better. See, meds don’t do anything for me that time wouldn’t do sooner or later anyway. Depression, panic, PTSD – they all *remit* after a while. After a while the question for me became, what’s the point of waiting for this episode to end? My diagnosis is not PD, it is not biochemical, it’s PTSD, and is based on experience that I need to make some peace with.
I think you need to read some about PTSD if you believe it’s "not biochemical." I don’t think PD and PTSD are as different as people seem to think, necessarily. It’s nice to think that there is an end, but a lot of people here who have PD and other ADs that were triggered by childhood abuse have found that they don’t go away after the door has been opened. I hope it turns out to be different for you. -elizabeth
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Philip wrote I am in no way against psychodynamic therapy – having spent a total of almost 10 years of my life with it – but I don’t see where meds and therapy arer contradictory and never have met a therapist who thought so. On the contrary, meds enabled me to work through issues which maybe wouldn’t have come up otherwise. I feel that this *either-or* is a bad situation, from both parties. I must add that psychodynamic therapy didn’t help me with my PD-symptoms but it did help me in getting to know myself a whole lot better.
Hi Philip I appreciate your insights. I am not an expert on therapists or therapy, but I know what works for me. My current p-doc has helped me through some shit that no one else could, in all the years and therapists I have seen. I feel that he is acting in my best interests and that his treatment method is sound. We have seen wonderful results in the time I have been seeing him. There is work left to do. If I implied that I think meds and therapy are in any way contradictory, or that my p-doc thinks that, I have not communicated clearly. It seems to me that there are many Different treatments for PTSD, usually done in combination. I have mainly worked with EMDR, CBT, some psychoanalysis, etc. I recognize there are other options available to me should I choose them and my p-doc recommend them for me. I know you are not comparing the treatments of PD with PTSD, as we both know they are very different beasts. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? My symptoms of panic and agoraphobia are based on childhood abuse and neglect that I suffered for a number of years. Many of my experiences were blocked out – I could not remember them until a triggering event last fall. When I was out of that environment, I did not learn to change my behavior, reactions, etc., to reflect my new environment. That is what I am trying to learn now – it’s a tough process to unlearn all that stuff and put something else in it’s place! Much harder than I would have imagined. I think it’s possible that there could be more than one issue presented at any one time, or numerous issues at one time. For the first time in my life, I have an idea of what my core issues really are. I would not have that knowledge without the help of my therapist. I’m not one to question this. I hope it will turn out to help you with your symptoms as much as with your feelings about yourself and what happened to
you. Thank you – it has helped so far It is my fear that being on medications would disrupt this process, though I am not certain of that, and after 6 months of not being on medication, I am wondering again if I made the right decision. It’s so hard to know. I think it’s most unlikely that medication would disrupt your therapy and frankly I’ve never met a resonsible therapist who enetertained that
opinion. Let’s be clear: my p-doc, when we discuss the posibility of introducing medications into my treatment plan, says they are not indicated at this time. This is what he has said all along. What I said was that *my fear* is that this would be the case, not that he said so. I regret if I miscommunicated. If my recovery is based on feeling what I feel, and meds alter that – what is the benefit? blessings, Renee
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Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
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Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
Chip – with respect to anxiety, it can often be that we are predisposed ‘nervous’ types (like me), who did not deal appropriately with a stressful event…Often times, the "underlying problem" that psychotherapy addresses is cognitive behavioral therapy that helps you to deal with future stressful times so that the full-blown attacks do not return…(That’s the theory — Charles Phipps
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Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address.
For some people, maybe. For those of us with a biochemical/genetic problem…nope. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are?
Yes! Shitty genetics and bad biochemistry that arises from them. And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms?
Nope. Not in 23 years of PD and 39 years of GAD. The PD does tends to wax and wane somewhat, but the only real sure thing for it is medication. At least that is my experience. Regards, Jen
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Shapere wrote Antidepressants don’t make me feel numb – they make me feel alive again! Depression, if anything, is what feels numb. When I’m depressed, I feel dead, detached, empty…those aren’t real, natural feelings, and neither is the numbing in PTSD.
Are you sure? I don’t mean to be argumentative, but how do you know what is a natural feeling and what isn’t? Aren’t they all real? Based on my experiences, this certainly seems natural response to me. Certainly not preferable, and there are other options, which is why I keep working it at. I don’t think I want to get into a discussion of what is a real, natural feeling and what isn’t. (meds and therapy) They work together well.
I am sure this is true for you, and I am happy that you have found relief from that combination. I am feeling some pressure, and I am not sure if it’s coming from you or me, that because this worked for you, I should do it too. Again, I have problems with this type of logic. When I was depressed, all I could do in therapy was lie on that couch and cry about this thing that was eating me up.
I NEEDED to lay on the couch and cry. Afterwards, I was able to talk about it and process it and put it away. And then onto the next thing I needed to cry about. To me, this is the therapeutic process. I realize this is defined differently for everyone. Then it got worse and I couldn’t even cry. When I started taking Parnate again, I could feel again and talk again and it felt like there was a future worth talking for. I don’t think this type of therapy is for people who are acutely symptomatic, but I do think it can be good if you’re doing decently on meds but still have some residual symptoms or other issues in life…as most of us who’ve had severe mental illness do, even when the meds bring us out of
it. My issues are not secondary to my symptoms, they are primary. For me – get rid of the issues, deal with them, the symptoms go away. I have already seen this happen on numerous occasions. My diagnosis is not PD, it is not biochemical, it’s PTSD, and is based on experience that I need to make some peace with. I know no other way than through therapy to get to the other side. I don’t want to crash again, I don’t want to break down again – I want to deal with this once and for all, and move on. I don’t want to medicate and then see what’s left to deal with – I want to deal with what’s there first, and then see what other means are necessary to live a full and fulfilling life. This is my chosen path – some of you may not agree with it, and that’s ok. You don’t have to I appreciate your posts because they help me think, they help me remember why I’ve chosen to do it this way, why my p-doc agrees with me. I am not doing this alone, by any stretch. I am doing it the way I need to, and the way I feel is most beneficial for me. Talking to you all about this has given me new energy blessings, Renee
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Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
Yes, Chip, I know what "caused" my PD, so do the three other guys that developed one or other of the anxiety disorders for the same reason. Does know make a difference – **NO** While some people have experienced very traumatic events that may, and I repeat may, have triggered their anxiety, just as many develop them without any discernable trigger(s). Often its just the normal day to day stresses and frustrations of life. But, for whatever reason, they are more than some brains can cope with. Ian – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –
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Medication in my situation (not so for everyone), according to my p-doc and me, would block the feelings I am trying to feel. Feeling what I need to feel is what is going to produce healing for me. A crucial part of my therapy and recovery has to do with how I respond in certain situations and why – medication would alter those results.
Drgnswve wrote Just to play devil’s advocate here , how do you know that this would be the case if you have never tried a course of meds before?
Well, I don’t know for sure of course, as I stated further down in this letter. But it seems to me that the very nature of medication is to alter feelings and symptoms – does aspirin really make headache pain go away, or does it just make it bearable? As I have stated many times before, this is obviously not an area of my expertise. A major part of my therapy and my recovery has involved Feeling what I did not allow myself to feel for numerous years – I see it as vital. For me, the meds made it much easier to deal with "issues" that I wanted to deal with from my past because I was not feeling panicky all the time. Also, it made my life much more "normal" so I quit feeling like I was in some way a victim of this disorder.
It’s wonderful that medications were able to help you so much I always appreciate hearing what’s helped folks, but IMO what works for one doesn’t necessarily make it a good treatment for everyone, especially when diagnoses are different, even if some of the symptoms are the same. And yes, I know your disorder is different than mine. But, the fact remains I had a whole lot of childhood trash to deal with too. And, quite frankly, the meds helped me to deal with it. Not by numbing any feelings, but by making me feel more confident, secure, happy and at peace. They certainly did not "block" any feelings I had or have.
My basic fear is one that many have mentioned they have personally experienced – that medications numb them to the point of feeling nothing. Now, I know that ideally, they go back to the p-doc and alter the medications until they find something that helps without making them numb. It just seems like a lengthy unnecessary process FOR ME right now. Are you sure your "issues" are real and not memories that the therapist helped you recall that were possibly skewed in some manner? No offense Renee, but there is a large body of evidence that suggests "suppressed memories" are many times not real, but imagined memories brought out by the suggestion of a therapist.
good honest question – I appreciate that. My memories are most definitely real. There are pieces I can remember all my life – nothing new in the last 6 months. What is different is how I am perceiving them. I always thought that everyone grew up and lived the way I did, and they were all fine, so I was going to make myself fine too – so I blocked out all the feelings from an early age. By doing that, I tried to make what they were doing to me less important. What I have remembered in flashbacks is the degree of abuse and more importantly, tried to focus on how i felt at the time – that allows me to ‘reframe’ how I feel about it as an adult. It has been effective for me, though it is a long battle that i am not done fighting yet. It certainly may not be the case in your situation, but have you done a reality check with those who were around during your childhood; family, friends etc. to see if your memories are what really happened?
You mean, like were there witnesses? My parents were smarter than that. There is no one to colaberate what they did to me behind closed doors, though my brother has indicated to me that he also was abused. I trust myself here. BTW, these are questions I would ask ANYONE who made this post. So, please,don’t take it personally. k?
no offense taken no worries The only problem I have is when someone says that I should do what they are doing (take meds, do a certain diet or exercise, drive a certain car, whatever) just because they think it’s so wonderful and it’s worked so well for them. While I appreciate enthusiasm, excitement, and the strong desire to share knowledge of what has worked for (someone(s), I have problems with this kind of logic. What is right for one person is not right for the next. As it has been said here numerous times I am in no way against medications for someone who really needs them (as defined by that individual) but not for me. Perhaps in the future I will find relief in this way – I am not against that happening. But from the beginning, it has been very important to me to NOT patch myself together again, but to really get into it and heal the root issues. And I think I’ve done a good job of doing that, to a point. Is it ever done? No, likely not. But this time, I want to deal with as much of it as I can so I can finally Move Forward. I fully recognize and appreciate that many have been able to do this with meds. For me, with my diagnosis, this is where I need to be and what I need to be doing right now. And some days it really sucks – don’t get me wrong. :/ At the beginning of my treatment, my p-doc told me that the door to freedom was at the bottom of the swamp – in the swamp was all the memories and feelings I’ve been trying to avoid all my life. I thought he was crazy! I told him I was supposed to be the crazy one! But I have found that he is right, and as many here have said – the way to freedom is through confrontation, through experience, through efforts. Yes I know that for some medications have allowed this to occur. Thus far, I have made this progress without meds. Has it been hard? sure! would have been hard with meds? I imagine. so i’ve babbled on a long time and i don’t know if i’ve made any sense – i’m sure you’ll let me know, and for that i am grateful blessings, Renee
Response:
And yes, I know your disorder is different than mine. But, the fact remains I had a whole lot of childhood trash to deal with too. And, quite frankly, the meds helped me to deal with it. Not by numbing any feelings, but by making me feel more confident, secure, happy and at peace. They certainly did not "block" any feelings I had or have.
I second this! Antidepressants don’t make me feel numb – they make me feel alive again! Depression, if anything, is what feels numb. When I’m depressed, I feel dead, detached, empty…those aren’t real, natural feelings, and neither is the numbing in PTSD. You have to understand, meds don’t turn you into a different person – you’re still yourself, and you still have free will. You have normal feelings, rather than the twisted, messed-up feelings that the disease causes you to have. BTW I’ve found my "underlying cause" and it seems to be biological and endogenous. I also want to "me too" what Philip says about therapy and meds: I am in no way against psychodynamic therapy – having spent a total of almost 10 years of my life with it – but I don’t see where meds and therapy arer contradictory and never have met a therapist who thought so. On the contrary, meds enabled me to work through issues which maybe wouldn’t have come up otherwise. I feel that this *either-or* is a bad situation, from both parties. I must add that psychodynamic therapy didn’t help me with my PD-symptoms but it did help me in getting to know myself a whole lot better.
They work together well. When I was depressed, all I could do in therapy was lie on that couch and cry about this thing that was eating me up. Then it got worse and I couldn’t even cry. When I started taking Parnate again, I could feel again and talk again and it felt like there was a future worth talking for. I don’t think this type of therapy is for people who are acutely symptomatic, but I do think it can be good if you’re doing decently on meds but still have some residual symptoms or other issues in life…as most of us who’ve had severe mental illness do, even when the meds bring us out of it. -elizabeth
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I wish I knew. After talking with a counselor, the only thing I can figure out is that I think too much and my brain is tired. I’ve lead a pretty good life. I’ve had my bad times (divorced parents etc.) but nothing any more tragic than anyone else. I LOVE (and let me reemphasize the word LOVE) my job, I make great money, I am very comfortable in life and have a zero stress level. What stress I do get I know how to deal with and never let things simmer. There are no apparent causes to my PA’s except a chemical imbalance. They were, however, brought on by a deep emotional impact I had. So, I’m stuck. There’s nothing evident on why I have these things. I get them listening to music, eating dinner, reading, even when I’m with my girlfriend (who is a strong post for me to lean on). Mine really suck because I can’t even understand why I have them. Anyone care to take a shot at what it could be?
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
Response:
I would say this depends on the diagnosis – for someone with PD, this is not likely to be true, but for someone like me with PTSD, therapy or therapy + meds is more likely to be beneficial than meds alone. Medication in my situation (not so for everyone), according to my p-doc and me, would block the feelings I am trying to feel. Feeling what I need to feel is what is going to produce healing for me. A crucial part of my therapy and recovery has to do with how I respond in certain situations and why – medication would alter those results.
I am in no way against psychodynamic therapy – having spent a total of almost 10 years of my life with it – but I don’t see where meds and therapy arer contradictory and never have met a therapist who thought so. On the contrary, meds enabled me to work through issues which maybe wouldn’t have come up otherwise. I feel that this *either-or* is a bad situation, from both parties. I must add that psychodynamic therapy didn’t help me with my PD-symptoms but it did help me in getting to know myself a whole lot better. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? My symptoms of panic and agoraphobia are based on childhood abuse and neglect that I suffered for a number of years. Many of my experiences were blocked out – I could not remember them until a triggering event last fall. When I was out of that environment, I did not learn to change my behavior, reactions, etc., to reflect my new environment. That is what I am trying to learn now – it’s a tough process to unlearn all that stuff and put something else in it’s place! Much harder than I would have imagined. I think it’s possible that there could be more than one issue presented at any one time, or numerous issues at one time. For the first time in my life, I have an idea of what my core issues really are. I would not have that knowledge without the help of my therapist.
I’m not one to question this. I hope it will turn out to help you with your symptoms as much as with your feelings about yourself and what happened to you. Remembering my abuse, feeling all the feelings I have denied myself all these years, and relearning certain things has improved my quality of life greatly, and for the first time, I really feel that I am on the road to healing, and not just patching myself together.
That sounds wonderful. *If it works, it works*. It is my fear that being on medications would disrupt this process, though I am not certain of that, and after 6 months of not being on medication, I am wondering again if I made the right decision. It’s so hard to know.
I think it’s most unlikely that medication would disrupt your therapy and frankly I’ve never met a resonsible therapist who enetertained that opinion. not sure if this helps any – it all depends on you, and we are just here on the sidelines, cheering you on. blessings, Renee Anyone can handle a crisis – it’s this day to day living that’s tough!
Philip
Response:
<snip Medication in my situation (not so for everyone), according to my p-doc and me, would block the feelings I am trying to feel. Feeling what I need to feel is what is going to produce healing for me. A crucial part of my therapy and recovery has to do with how I respond in certain situations and why – medication would alter those results.
Just to play devil’s advocate here , how do you know that this would be the case if you have never tried a course of meds before? For me, the meds made it much easier to deal with "issues" that I wanted to deal with from my past because I was not feeling panicky all the time. Also, it made my life much more "normal" so I quit feeling like I was in some way a victim of this disorder. And yes, I know your disorder is different than mine. But, the fact remains I had a whole lot of childhood trash to deal with too. And, quite frankly, the meds helped me to deal with it. Not by numbing any feelings, but by making me feel more confident, secure, happy and at peace. They certainly did not "block" any feelings I had or have. <snip For the first time in my life, I have an idea of what my core issues really are. I would not have that knowledge without the help of my therapist.
Are you sure your "issues" are real and not memories that the therapist helped you recall that were possibly skewed in some manner? No offense Renee, but there is a large body of evidence that suggests "suppressed memories" are many times not real, but imagined memories brought out by the suggestion of a therapist. It certainly may not be the case in your situation, but have you done a reality check with those who were around during your childhood; family, friends etc. to see if your memories are what really happened? Remembering my abuse, feeling all the feelings I have denied myself all these years, and relearning certain things has improved my quality of life greatly, and for the first time, I really feel that I am on the road to healing, and not just patching myself together. It is my fear that being on medications would disrupt this process, though I am not certain of that, and after 6 months of not being on medication, I am wondering again if I made the right decision. It’s so hard to know.
Yes, it is hard to know for sure. Especially if you have not tried both ways. BTW, these are questions I would ask ANYONE who made this post. So, please,don’t take it personally. k? BB & Hugs, Jen
Response:
Chip wrote Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address.
I would say this depends on the diagnosis – for someone with PD, this is not likely to be true, but for someone like me with PTSD, therapy or therapy + meds is more likely to be beneficial than meds alone. Medication in my situation (not so for everyone), according to my p-doc and me, would block the feelings I am trying to feel. Feeling what I need to feel is what is going to produce healing for me. A crucial part of my therapy and recovery has to do with how I respond in certain situations and why – medication would alter those results. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms?
My symptoms of panic and agoraphobia are based on childhood abuse and neglect that I suffered for a number of years. Many of my experiences were blocked out – I could not remember them until a triggering event last fall. When I was out of that environment, I did not learn to change my behavior, reactions, etc., to reflect my new environment. That is what I am trying to learn now – it’s a tough process to unlearn all that stuff and put something else in it’s place! Much harder than I would have imagined. I think it’s possible that there could be more than one issue presented at any one time, or numerous issues at one time. For the first time in my life, I have an idea of what my core issues really are. I would not have that knowledge without the help of my therapist. Remembering my abuse, feeling all the feelings I have denied myself all these years, and relearning certain things has improved my quality of life greatly, and for the first time, I really feel that I am on the road to healing, and not just patching myself together. It is my fear that being on medications would disrupt this process, though I am not certain of that, and after 6 months of not being on medication, I am wondering again if I made the right decision. It’s so hard to know. not sure if this helps any – it all depends on you, and we are just here on the sidelines, cheering you on. blessings, Renee Anyone can handle a crisis – it’s this day to day living that’s tough!
Response:
Chip Writes: Very often I hear from others that medication only blocks symptoms and doesn’t get to the "underlying problem", which only psychotherapy, in one of it’s various forms, can address. But I am curious: has anyone ever discovered what their "underlying problem(s)" is/are? And if so, did this discovery lead to a resolution, or lessening, of any symptoms? Chip
Hi Chip! I wish I had the answer to that question!! After 11 years, and in excess of 100 Grand on this problem, the only thing I can figure out is that I really think mine has a lot to do with genetics. My Mother has the same condition, and I fear my oldest daughter does too. Hope you find an answer. Of course, this is IMHO Take Care! Steph
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