Question:
i don’t know what age he was but i have found it helpful just to observe kids who were my age when my abuse started. i did the whole guilt thing like oh, i should have made him stop or i should have run away. i needed at that point to remember that i was 5 years old when it all started. when i see a 5 year old, there is no doubt in my mind that i am looking back on what happened to me as a child with an adult’s mind. i was seeing myself at 5 as i am now. now i could get away or do self protective things. at 5, i couldn’t.
Response:
>What would demonstrate my "willingness" to make amends to the people who >suffered
well if you can, saying exactly that to them. i’m sorry that my self-involvement kept me from giving you the attention, affection and support you deserved. if you can’t for whatever reason tell them that, you can make efforts to make sure the same situation doesn’t repeat again in your future. you could write a letter to them apologizing-one you don’t send. those are just a few off the top of my head.
Response:
Thank you all so much for your replies to the guilt problem. Now, I have another one. I don’t have PTSD, although I have been through 35 years of an emotionally abusive marriage to an alcoholic, which I am out of now. Can anyone explain to me why PTSD sufferers have so much problem with guilt? I would think that PTSD sufferers would feel that they are the victims of something horrendous and that they might think that other people who hurt them are guilty……….not themselves. I don’t feel any guilt feelings for normal childhood behavior, but my friend seems to dwell on this, and he absolutely cannot forgive himself. He also tends to get philosophical in that, even if his "sin" was small, he feels that it is just by luck (or something) that it wasn’t much worse. So he still doesn’t deserve to have "a life", because he could have just as well done something very bad. I really don’t understand how PTSD messes with a person’s mind so he feels terribly guilty over small, normal hurts that we all do throughout life, often without intent at all. Marilyn
Response:
Gary, Thanks, you explained it much better than I. The truth is that it isn’t about others forgiving us. It is about you. Take the focus off of others. Work on yourself. Your old friends may or may not have anything to do with you. You can’t control that. You can only take care of yourself. JohnN Jeremy’s Dad <js…@home.com> wrote in message
news:39fe09f0.42773650@news… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Ron, > >What would demonstrate my "willingness" to make amends to the people who > >suffered because my self-involvement meant they were denied attention, > >affection, and support. > Great Question!! I played about with that for a while. > I have come to the belief that I can do no more than my best to repair > a relationship that was damaged. After I’ve tried to do what I can to > rectify the problem, the other person too has a choice in whether or > not we continue the relationship and in what state. > I know that sounds a bit obtuse but let me try to give a hypothetical. > Perhaps that will serve to model what I think. Who knows, it may even > make more sense to me <warm smile>. > Assume for a moment that in the madness that is this monster we call > PTSD that I have responded inappropriately to you. When the moment is > over (I’m in a less Hypervigilant state or the rage has passed or my > concentration has improved or whatever ). I can think of four choices > when I face you again (I’m sure there are others but work with me here > <grin>) Please understand that my expressions of winning and losing > below are simply metaphors for the supposed benefits that occur > because of how I chose to deal with the problem. > 1. Ignore it and pretend it didn’t happen > In my opinion, this is disrespectful to you AND to me. This approach > demonstrates that I choose to believe that either one of us (or both) > does not have the requisite skill or interest to resolve the problem. > Soon, one or both of us will find reasons to avoid the other and the > problem is solved because I no longer have to deal with you. A common > metaphor would call this a lose/lose proposition. > 2. Blow it off and say "It’s my PTSD, live with it" > Selfish on my part and terribly disrespectful to you. I’ve got a > medical reason to behave the way I did!! It’s allowable and justified > because by gosh, I was abused! It also suggests that I’m so > self-centred there would soon be little desire on your part to > continue efforts to be involved with me. I win, you lose. Actually, > we both lose, I may just be a little slower in cluing in to the loss. > Because I’m self absorbed, I just figure you don’t know what you’re > missing and you weren’t good enough for me anyway! > 3. Suck up to you but make no efforts to change future behaviour > I come grovelling back, over exagerating (sp?) your greatness and my > bad behaviour. I ooze sorrow and shame. BUT! Days (weeks/months > whatever) I do it again as I took no concrete steps to alleviate the > situation or to help you understand what it was that happened. You > win, I lose. This example usually makes me think of the batterer in > a domestic violence situation. > 4. Approach you once it’s "over" to "reconcile" > Hopefully, I can find ways to educate you about what state I was in > and explain why I was unable to deal in a more rational/reasonable or > calm way with you. I can acknowledge that how I behaved was not > appropriate to the circumstance and you can acknowledge that there are > one or more situations in my past that contributed to my crazy > response. If we’re lucky (and both open to hearing each other?) maybe > we can find ways to accomodate each other should a similiar event > occur. Perhaps if you know for example that being in a crowd stresses > me out (cause I’m so busy watching for potential threats that all my > senses go on full alert. My heart rate increases, my hearing becomes > more acute, my eyes dart hither and yon and my sense of smell becomes > more sensitive ), you won’t ask me questions that require > concentration (cause then I couldn’t watch for the threats to become > real and I might get blindsided). On the other hand, maybe I could > "practice" a conversation with you when there are few people around > and then we can go repeat it in a small group of people and maybe > again a few days later in even a bigger group. Heck, I may even just > repeat phrases I memorized just because I can still watch for > problems. But together you and I will recognize that even though I > "zone out" from time to time, you’re still important to me and I in > turn will know I’m important to you. > Okay, so what if it doesn’t work? Let’s say I choose option four and > you turn me away in some fashion. Guess what? There’s not a lot I > can do anymore. I figuratively bared my soul hoping to fix a problem > that I had been part of (maybe I caused it, who knows) and you > rebuffed me. Maybe you weren’t in a mind set to reconcile right now. > Maybe I can try again another time. At some time (and I’m not good at > judging when that is by the way), I have to realize that I did > everything I could and move on. It’s a pain but what else can I do? > In an altogether long winded fashion, that’s how I see "willingness". > Now, if I could only get willing <silly grin>. I’m afraid that the > approach to reconcile is tough for me to initiate as I’m usually in > isolation mode for a while after any confrontation. Between shame and > guilt, I have a hard time bringing it up again. Sigh… > Thanks for giving me something to tumble through my mind > Gary
Response:
Would everyone on this newsgroup please just absolutely ignore this jerk, and, if you know how, please complain and get him blocked. thanks JohnC
Response:
Hi Marilyn! > I don’t have PTSD, although I have been through 35 years of an > emotionally abusive marriage to an alcoholic, which I am out of now.
Firstly, I am glad that you have learned to take care of yourself better. No offense intended here, but are you certain that you don’t have PTSD yourself? Even with Al-Anon, 35 years’ is a long time and domestic battering (physical and.or emotional) certainly qualifies as trauma or series of traumas. The other thing that comes to mind is that we with PTSD tend to gravitate towards others with it … we and they do not have to necessarily carry the psychiatric diagnosis. We and they do not necessarily move out of denial and get diagnosed and, if needed, treatment. This has been my life experience. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
sorry for apparent double post … something hiccupped in the electronic world :/
Response:
Hi again. I have actually wondered if I might have PTSD, but I just don’t seem to fit the profiles that I have read. My main problem is codependence which is not fun either, although not as devastating as PTSD. I am working hard at overcoming codependence, which basically makes you become a non-person. I appreciate all the responses I got from this group. Thank you. Marilyn "Crafty Bernardo" <craftyberna…@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:l45uvs8u6gi7kr54hlbqsreemm5mk5u8ar@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On 31 Oct 2000 12:28:00 GMT, "Nancy" <ki…@cris.com> wrote: > >Hi Marilyn! > >> I don’t have PTSD, although I have been through 35 years of an > >> emotionally abusive marriage to an alcoholic, which I am out of now. > >Firstly, I am glad that you have learned to take care of yourself better. > >No offense intended here, but are you certain that you don’t have PTSD > >yourself? Even with Al-Anon, 35 years’ is a long time and domestic > >battering (physical and.or emotional) certainly qualifies as trauma or > >series of traumas. > >The other thing that comes to mind is that we with PTSD tend to gravitate > >towards others with it … we and they do not have to necessarily carry the > >psychiatric diagnosis. We and they do not necessarily move out of denial > >and get diagnosed and, if needed, treatment. This has been my life > >experience. > >Smile and there will be something to smile about! > >Nancy > I agree with Nancy here, it would seem unavoidable to not be suffering > from PTSD after being in that situation for so long. You may have > learned to adapt, which in itself can cause PTSD. Good move. > Rick
Response:
Fortunately, message paths can be tracked. —– Subject: If we dragged faggot Ronny Nickel-boy behind a car, would he leave a PINK streak, or just SCREAM one? Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:45:51 -0500 (EST) From: "The Voice of TRUTH" <UGALAW…@AOL.COM> Organization: none To: "Ron Nicholson" <ba…@home.com> If we dragged faggot Ronny Nickel-boy behind a car until his head popped off, would he leave a PINK streak, or just SCREAM one? LOL >:-D PS. They call him "Nickel-son" because that’s how much his mom charged his dad– who was obviously a faggot doing her on a "dare" because there’s no other way that *any* man would touch that mile-wide bitch, let alone a *faggot* like Ronny’s daddy! (There’s no other explanation for how such a pathetic piece of shit like nickel-boy could have come to soil humanity! If there were *ever* a justifable excuse for abortion, it’s HIM– at *any* age. Whatsamatter, faggot, you hate the world so much you wish you were never born, and so you wanna spread it to others? We agree– you *should* have been aborted! One less faggot to shoot! HAHAHAHAHHAHA —SAVE BULLETS: ABORT A FAGGOT!!!— From – Fri Nov 3 12:03:46 2000 Return-Path: <UGALAW…@AOL.COM> Received: from h10.mail.home.com ([24.0.95.44]) by mail2.rdc3.on.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.03.00 201-229-121) with ESMTP id <20001103164559.YFPR26241.mail2.rdc3.on.home….@h10.mail.home.com> for <ba…@mail.bloor1.on.wave.home.com>; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:45:59 -0800 Received: from mx5-w.mail.home.com (mx5-w.mail.home.com [24.0.95.70]) by h10.mail.home.com (8.9.3/8.9.0) with ESMTP id IAA07958 for <ba…@home.com>; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from demai05.mw.mediaone.net (demai05.mw.mediaone.net [24.131.1.56]) by mx5-w.mail.home.com (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id IAA21988 for <ba…@home.com>; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 08:45:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from smtp.mw.mediaone.net (nic-c25-030.mw.mediaone.net [24.131.25.30]) by demai05.mw.mediaone.net (8.8.7/8.8.7) with SMTP id LAA25194 for ba…@home.com; Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:45:51 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 3 Nov 2000 11:45:51 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <200011031645.LAA25…@demai05.mw.mediaone.net> To: "Ron Nicholson" <ba…@home.com> From: "The Voice of TRUTH" <UGALAW…@AOL.COM> Subject: If we dragged faggot Ronny Nickel-boy behind a car, would he leave a PINK streak, or just SCREAM one? Organization: none X-Mailer: Ghost Mail 5.1 http://ay.home.ml.org/ X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mozilla-Status: 8001 X-Mozilla-Status2: 00000000 X-UIDL: <200011031645.LAA25…@demai05.mw.mediaone.net> If we dragged faggot Ronny Nickel-boy behind a car until his head popped off, would he leave a PINK streak, or just SCREAM one? LOL >:-D PS. They call him "Nickel-son" because that’s how much his mom charged his dad– who was obviously a faggot doing her on a "dare" because there’s no other way that *any* man would touch that mile-wide bitch, let alone a *faggot* like Ronny’s daddy! (There’s no other explanation for how such a pathetic piece of shit like nickel-boy could have come to soil humanity! If there were *ever* a justifable excuse for abortion, it’s HIM– at *any* age. Whatsamatter, faggot, you hate the world so much you wish you were never born, and so you wanna spread it to others? We agree– you *should* have been aborted! One less faggot to shoot! HAHAHAHAHHAHA —SAVE BULLETS: ABORT A FAGGOT!!!—
Response:
Hi. My friend who suffers from PTSD feels a tremendous amount of guilt for people he may have hurt years ago when he was a child. He feels that because of these "sins", he doesn’t deserve to have a good life. Does anyone relate to that? And has anyone learned how to overcome something like this? Thank you for your help in understanding what my friend is going through. Marilyn
Response:
Hi Marilyn! > Hi. My friend who suffers from PTSD feels a tremendous amount of guilt for > people he may have hurt years ago when he was a child. He feels that > because of these "sins", he doesn’t deserve to have a good life. Does > anyone relate to that?
Not from my childhood as much as from the date of my major trauma. > And has anyone learned how to overcome something > like this?
It’s SOS (the same old stuff), meds and therapy, therapy and meds; a major dose of the appropriate 12 Step group can also help. It can take a loooong time to change one’s thought patterns. :/ Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
The guilt is common for PTSD sufferers particularly for veteran survivors. My Doc tells me that with guilt he is concerned about self distructive behavior–i.e. make yourself suffer. I do not know the solution, but it may help to simply accept it, acknowledge you are human and forgive yourself! JohnC
Response:
mryan wrote: > Hi. My friend who suffers from PTSD feels a tremendous amount of guilt for > people he may have hurt years ago when he was a child. He feels that > because of these "sins", he doesn’t deserve to have a good life. Does > anyone relate to that? And has anyone learned how to overcome something > like this? Thank you for your help in understanding what my friend is going > through. > Marilyn
The best thing you can do for your friend is to get support for yourself. Your friend has to come to the conclusion that he is in need of help and willing to make the effort. There isn’t a magic bullet. You need the support of people like yourself. People who have people like us in their lives. As for the guilt, it’s a human experience. You don’t need significant trauma to experience it, or survive it. And that’s where you can be a real friend. Challenge his perceptions. Give advice on what you do when you feel racked with guilt. Show him how you’ve forgiven yourself.
Response:
Marilyn, I too had a tremendous amount of guilt from my past behavior. In the twelve step programs they say; 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all. 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others. Just the fact that you are willing to make amends is enough. If you friend is a Christian then Jesus died for our sins already. Pray for forgivness. We were made as sinners, that is part of being human. TAKE WHAT YOU LIKE, AND LEAVE THE REST. John N mryan <mr…@gorge.net> wrote in message
news:svqdo6na3ebg46@corp.supernews.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi. My friend who suffers from PTSD feels a tremendous amount of guilt for > people he may have hurt years ago when he was a child. He feels that > because of these "sins", he doesn’t deserve to have a good life. Does > anyone relate to that? And has anyone learned how to overcome something > like this? Thank you for your help in understanding what my friend is going > through. > Marilyn
Response:
John C said: > with guilt he is concerned about self distructive >behavior–i.e. make yourself suffer.
That was the whole crux of my personality for many years after early abuse. Making myself suffer because the most powerful person in my life (abuser) made me suffer. I perpetuated his sickness. I believed the powerful parent and learned that I was to suffer and accepted it and perpetuated it upon myself. MAJOR thought patterns, beliefs about myself and the willingness to accept the truth about who I am now is the way I have found out of this brainwashing. I’m still on the path, but guilt doesn’t define me anymore. Now I just feel it a lot =/ Kristine The unexamined life is not worth living – Socrates
Response:
JohnN wrote: > Marilyn, > I too had a tremendous amount of guilt from my past behavior. In the twelve > step programs they say; > 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make > amends to them all. > 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so > would injure them or others.
Are there also two directives for the individual? How we’ve hurt ourselves, and we make direct amendments for our self-abuses. It would be a shame to forgive what we do to others and not ourselves. What I find troublesome with step programs is that they don’t address what to do if you can’t apologize for your actions to people.
Response:
You Don’t have to apologize, you have to be "willing" to make amends. The key is to be willing. I read a book on meditation, picture waves going away, with forgiveness riding on each one. Forgiveness for what others have done to us, we have done to others, and we have done to ourselves. It is easy to nitpick the faults of religions and philosophies. I used to. When I embraced the spirit of them that is when it made sense. Now people want to hold everybody to their word. Just enjoy the spirit of it. JohnN Ron Nicholson <ba…@home.com> wrote in message
news:39FDB8C1.8E6201B3@home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> JohnN wrote: > > Marilyn, > > I too had a tremendous amount of guilt from my past behavior. In the twelve > > step programs they say; > > 8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make > > amends to them all. > > 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so > > would injure them or others. > Are there also two directives for the individual? How we’ve hurt ourselves, and > we make direct amendments for our self-abuses. It would be a shame to forgive > what we do to others and not ourselves. > What I find troublesome with step programs is that they don’t address what to > do if you can’t apologize for your actions to people.
Response:
JohnN wrote: > You Don’t have to apologize, you have to be "willing" to make amends. The > key is to be willing. I read a book on meditation, picture waves going > away, with forgiveness riding on each one. Forgiveness for what others have > done to us, we have done to others, and we have done to ourselves. > It is easy to nitpick the faults of religions and philosophies. I used to. > When I embraced the spirit of them that is when it made sense. Now people > want to hold everybody to their word. Just enjoy the spirit of it.
Who is nitpicking? I’m looking for concrete advice. What would demonstrate my "willingness" to make amends to the people who suffered because my self-involvement meant they were denied attention, affection, and support. Or, how did you demonstrate your willingness?
Response:
Hi Ron, >What would demonstrate my "willingness" to make amends to the people who >suffered because my self-involvement meant they were denied attention, >affection, and support.
Great Question!! I played about with that for a while. I have come to the belief that I can do no more than my best to repair a relationship that was damaged. After I’ve tried to do what I can to rectify the problem, the other person too has a choice in whether or not we continue the relationship and in what state. I know that sounds a bit obtuse but let me try to give a hypothetical. Perhaps that will serve to model what I think. Who knows, it may even make more sense to me <warm smile>. Assume for a moment that in the madness that is this monster we call PTSD that I have responded inappropriately to you. When the moment is over (I’m in a less Hypervigilant state or the rage has passed or my concentration has improved or whatever ). I can think of four choices when I face you again (I’m sure there are others but work with me here <grin>) Please understand that my expressions of winning and losing below are simply metaphors for the supposed benefits that occur because of how I chose to deal with the problem. 1. Ignore it and pretend it didn’t happen In my opinion, this is disrespectful to you AND to me. This approach demonstrates that I choose to believe that either one of us (or both) does not have the requisite skill or interest to resolve the problem. Soon, one or both of us will find reasons to avoid the other and the problem is solved because I no longer have to deal with you. A common metaphor would call this a lose/lose proposition. 2. Blow it off and say "It’s my PTSD, live with it" Selfish on my part and terribly disrespectful to you. I’ve got a medical reason to behave the way I did!! It’s allowable and justified because by gosh, I was abused! It also suggests that I’m so self-centred there would soon be little desire on your part to continue efforts to be involved with me. I win, you lose. Actually, we both lose, I may just be a little slower in cluing in to the loss. Because I’m self absorbed, I just figure you don’t know what you’re missing and you weren’t good enough for me anyway! 3. Suck up to you but make no efforts to change future behaviour I come grovelling back, over exagerating (sp?) your greatness and my bad behaviour. I ooze sorrow and shame. BUT! Days (weeks/months whatever) I do it again as I took no concrete steps to alleviate the situation or to help you understand what it was that happened. You win, I lose. This example usually makes me think of the batterer in a domestic violence situation. 4. Approach you once it’s "over" to "reconcile" Hopefully, I can find ways to educate you about what state I was in and explain why I was unable to deal in a more rational/reasonable or calm way with you. I can acknowledge that how I behaved was not appropriate to the circumstance and you can acknowledge that there are one or more situations in my past that contributed to my crazy response. If we’re lucky (and both open to hearing each other?) maybe we can find ways to accomodate each other should a similiar event occur. Perhaps if you know for example that being in a crowd stresses me out (cause I’m so busy watching for potential threats that all my senses go on full alert. My heart rate increases, my hearing becomes more acute, my eyes dart hither and yon and my sense of smell becomes more sensitive ), you won’t ask me questions that require concentration (cause then I couldn’t watch for the threats to become real and I might get blindsided). On the other hand, maybe I could "practice" a conversation with you when there are few people around and then we can go repeat it in a small group of people and maybe again a few days later in even a bigger group. Heck, I may even just repeat phrases I memorized just because I can still watch for problems. But together you and I will recognize that even though I "zone out" from time to time, you’re still important to me and I in turn will know I’m important to you. Okay, so what if it doesn’t work? Let’s say I choose option four and you turn me away in some fashion. Guess what? There’s not a lot I can do anymore. I figuratively bared my soul hoping to fix a problem that I had been part of (maybe I caused it, who knows) and you rebuffed me. Maybe you weren’t in a mind set to reconcile right now. Maybe I can try again another time. At some time (and I’m not good at judging when that is by the way), I have to realize that I did everything I could and move on. It’s a pain but what else can I do? In an altogether long winded fashion, that’s how I see "willingness". Now, if I could only get willing <silly grin>. I’m afraid that the approach to reconcile is tough for me to initiate as I’m usually in isolation mode for a while after any confrontation. Between shame and guilt, I have a hard time bringing it up again. Sigh… Thanks for giving me something to tumble through my mind Gary
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