Question:
Is there any moral justification for gossiping about unknown people (e.g., clients)? Or is it somehow worse to gossip about well-known and relatively powerful ppl, e.g., Colin R*ss? (The US Supreme Court seems to be contra, fwiw. They seem to believe that it’s worse to gossip about unknown and powerless ppl. Cf. *NY Times v. Sullivan* with *Gertz*.) How would any of you like to have unsubstantiated gossip about your group spread around internationally? Is there any moral justification for Ts (or most non-dissoids) lurking here but not talking to us? (Please don’t try the "we don’t want to disturb the interactions"; you’re doing that already by lurking.) How would any of you like ppl to spy on you and talk about you behind your back, esp if the lurkers knew (or should know) that their behavior is disturbing you and harming some of you? How would any of you like ppl to recreate your abuse? I’ve thought about this from the utilitarian, Rawlsian, and communitarian pov. Most non-dissoid lurking; talking about us behind our backs (esp without discussing such topics with us collectively as well); or "deciding" what was best for us (and, what’s worse, imo, without even discussing the topic collectively with us or seeking or input or pov), even if you didn’t try to impose that decision on us doesn’t seem justified or moral to me. I’d be interested to hear other pov, esp from the ppl who do any of those things. regards, e
snip [My T] said that a bunch of Ts argue over the merits of this group. He said that some of them think that we shouldn’t be together in "unsupervised" discussion. They think that will be detrimental to us. (What fools, eh?) But he thinks that we do the best for each other and that the Ts should leave us alone here. I agree. And I think that they should provide forums for themselves to listen to us . . . .
I don’t think it’s any more their responsibility than ours. Also, I don’t think it needs to be ISSD. But otherwise, I agree. regards, e — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:
Response:
Webster’s "New World Thesaurus" Gossip: tattle, prattle, tell tales, talk idly, "chat", chatter, rumor, report, tell secrets, blab, babble, repeat. Offense, Opinion and the offense of opinion, I think that these are part of all communication no matter what the form/lable it takes. I try to see communication as being paramount to the relationship of human beings on all levels. As far as a group of people with "paper" feeling that their "opinion" holds merit, it does, with them and only them or those who accept their conclusions. Myself, I think that they should probably live as we do, alone, without the ability, support network in person, to talk with others like ourselves for many years, and then one day be told or stumble upon the one thing that seems to fill one of our longest lasting needs. The chance to know we are not alone in this world of NORMAL’S (which it is funny/sad? to say, makes up most of the paper holding professionals) who come to such conclusions, i.e. this group is detrimental. At what point did we ask, or mention that we cared what they think of this group? Narcissism abounds in the Mental Health Profession, and the fact that they felt the need to sit in jury, to condemn this group, the people who take part in it, seems to point that seeing all side of a give situation, understanding that one persons truth is not always another’s, and putting their self importance in what they conclude as a professional stance, seems to point to them being on a soapbox and spouting " All praise me, for I have the answers". Chrissie Heins, said it best "Spend a night in my veins" So to all you "professionals" deciding on if this is a positive manner of communication, emotional connection and supportive environment. Try to remember your group sessions while at school working on projects, the friends you talked with and confided in, the emotional highs and lows, then ask yourself if you had not been able to connect with others in your situation, would you have had a hard row to hoe, or if you would have completed school, for some. Human beings need to connect, communicate, and that is what these "professionals" are doing with this, doesn’t mean it is right or wrong, but it sure does not mane it has to hold any merit for others outside thier CLICK. I Plural PS. Kudo’s , e I like your mind 
)
Response:
Is there any moral justification for gossiping about unknown people (e.g., clients)?
I’ve always thought of gossip as conversation intended to be or is in direct substance, vindictive, slighting, demeaning, prejudicial, etc., conversation with a bite! so to speak. Is this what you mean by ‘gossip’? I just finished responding to your post on the original thread and that being about the ISSD conferences, what takes place there and the "merits" of this group, etc… I was even going to retitle it and forgot to before I sent it, then this post came up and you retitled!… I pasted it in below. Or is it somehow worse to gossip about well-known and relatively powerful ppl, e.g., Colin R*ss?
Good point/observation, seeing as Peter was recently upset with ppl here for talking about R*ss. Granted, a conference doesn’t have the potential of being attended by the whole world ~yet~ we all know that a very miniscule part of the global population ever reads asd – prolly as small as those who attend a conference, maybe even smaller. In answer to your Q, I think the potential fallouts from talk might be experienced differently. I don’t know if it’s worse or not bc he is known. (The US Supreme Court seems to be contra, fwiw. They seem to believe that it’s worse to gossip about unknown and powerless ppl. Cf. *NY Times v. Sullivan* with *Gertz*.) How would any of you like to have unsubstantiated gossip about your group spread around internationally?
Could you define the parameters for ’substantiated’ first? Is there any moral justification for Ts (or most non-dissoids) lurking here but not talking to us? (Please don’t try the "we don’t want to disturb the interactions"; you’re doing that already by lurking.)
Ok, I won’t. *g* How about that passive participation may permit a person to learn and then use that learnings in one’s life, even if it means in one’s professional one. Granted, not asking a Q or two etc can make one wonder about the moral integrity of such observations/conclusions. I’d like to think that not only negative things can result from such passive (or active) participation. For instance, the whole focus recently on the existence and result of therapy that has harmed. These ppl aren’t demi-g*ds for goodness sakes and if one therapist reads here and truly GETS IT about the ways in which therapy can harm, what someone who has been hurt deals with, etc, and holds or shifts something they do/or may do so as not to do the same harm, then I think that’s a plus and they wouldn’t need to relate in order to achieve that. How would any of you like ppl to spy on you and talk about you behind your back, esp if the lurkers knew (or should know) that their behavior is disturbing you and harming some of you?
I think what would be hard is if this behavior managed to produce other behaviors that managed to trickle down into my own life to cause me harm. : o( How would any of you like ppl to recreate your abuse?
Consciously? Speaking for myself, I’d have to seriously be out to lunch for that to happen. I’ve thought about this from the utilitarian, Rawlsian, and communitarian pov. Most non-dissoid lurking; talking about us behind our backs (esp without discussing such topics with us collectively as well); or "deciding" what was best for us (and, what’s worse, imo, without even discussing the topic collectively with us or seeking or input or pov), even if you didn’t try to impose that decision on us doesn’t seem justified or moral to me. I’d be interested to hear other pov, esp from the ppl who do any of those things.
Well… I think what you just said above could reasonably be applied to every present and circulating book, article, website, etc about the ppl whom the books, articles, etc are based on and the ppl who have the experiences that they do who post here (how’s that for describing us?! *grin*) snip [My T] said that a bunch of Ts argue over the merits of this group. He said that some of them think that we shouldn’t be together in "unsupervised" discussion. They think that will be detrimental to us. (What fools, eh?) But he thinks that we do the best for each other and that the Ts should leave us alone here. I agree. And I think that they should provide forums for themselves to listen to us . . . . I don’t think it’s any more their responsibility than ours. Also, I don’t think it needs to be ISSD. But otherwise, I agree.
A forum to gather to be heard would be interesing. [A Good Inpatient Program - paste-in] This is great. I think we should all go to the next ISSD conference and do this spy thing. All we need to do is put initials behind our names, right?
… and walk the talk.. or is that talk the walk? *g* I think it’s in Texas.
Yeehaw!!! Sorry, couldn’t resist! It would be expensive unless you lived near there.
What! No frequent ISSD miles?!!! Ah shucks! *grin* It could be fun to meet ppl but I’d rather do it somewhere "unsupervised". 
Me too, though undercover sure does have it’s advantages. Spy stuff can be fun! Think about it: would you rather hang with a bunch of Ts or a bunch of dissoids?
Seeing as I’ve hung out with both groups… hmm… Last night my t talked to me about this ng. snip He said that a bunch of Ts argue over the merits of this group.
Merits? ‘Merits’ as in validity I take it. How valid is this group… I’d say that wholly depends on what each person is seeking and that surely varies. See what I mean? Wouldn’t you think they’d have something more interesting and important to talk about?
I’ll play d*vil’s advocate here… I think there is importance to discussing the impact (if any) of group participation, net or rl. Why would you want to hang with ppl who talk about stuff like that?
Speaking for myself, I’d want to explore with other minds the various reported effects and see if there is any particular aspect(s) that might cause deleterious/positive effects. All good information afaic. I’d like to preface this by also saying that I do understand the discomfort with having others not directly affected casting judgment on what others do who are. He said that some of them think that we shouldn’t be together in "unsupervised" discussion. They think that will be detrimental to us. (What fools, eh?)
I think I can validate some detrimental effects like when ppl give/get total misguided misinformation and it goes unchallenged. Ok, so unchallenged may not happen here very often and I’ve seen misinformation being given and I still see it happen here. LOL. But notice how many participate in this forum. "Ya’ll need supervision but I don’t want to supervise. I’ll just spend at least that much time arguing with ppl about it." :-/ Puzzling, huh? To be honest, I don’t really blame them. I don’t trust them when they’re unsupervised, either.
ROTFL!!! Look at that seminar astri posted about. They wanted to explore MPD from an experiential perspective but didn’t want anyone who knew anything about that to attend. Smart. Real smart. And that was approved by the ppl who put the conference together despite such a glaring methodological problem? And ppl knew that and attended anyway? :-/ Maybe it’s me but that seems odd.
It may seem odd and I can vouch for the credibility of practicing scenarios without the actual population in attendance. For one, it may be harmful to witness such depictions if one isn’t prepared and isn’t in a setting where receiving personal support is appropriate and available. Also, portraying such scenarios amongst one’s peers as a group is truly challenging enough, everyone’s awkward, etc. Do you really want to hang with ppl like that?
Ok, I’m weird… I do. And do you want to pay to do that? ;)
I wouldn’t want to pay to ‘act’ out something I already live with and is normal, hum-drum every-day stuff. *grin* Gee, trill, I dunno. I’m sceptical about how interesting that would be. Maybe if ppl bring enough jello to fill the pool, it would be fun. <g
I’ll bring the mini marshmellows! But he thinks that we do the best for each other and that the Ts should leave us alone here.
I’d agree that casting a sweeping judgment is something ppl ought to refrain from. It would be nice if they left us alone and never read. Or if they posted if they do read. That’s unlikely, though.
*nod* I don’t think they like talking to us. Unless we pay them, that is. <g OK. Maybe not then, either. <g
: o( Maybe if there wasn’t so much rampant arrogance that the psych field knows more and has all the answers, we could meet on a more human-to-human level playing field. snip Anyway, I’m going to ask him to tell me about the next conference. You can find out about it at www.issd.org
Yep. Then we can organize here to go and even submit presentations, okay? Whose in? We talked about this a few years ago. IIRC a few ppl came up with some funny ideas.
I remember! Good luck with your presentations!
Yuppers! Sierra of TN
Response:
Webster’s "New World Thesaurus" Gossip: tattle, prattle, tell tales, talk idly, "chat", chatter, rumor, report, tell secrets, blab, babble, repeat. Offense, Opinion and the offense of opinion, I think that these are part of all communication no matter what the form/lable it takes. I try to see communication as being paramount to the relationship of human beings on all levels.
: o) As far as a group of people with "paper" feeling that their "opinion" holds merit, it does, with them and only them or those who accept their conclusions. Myself, I think that they should probably live as we do, alone, without the ability, support network in person, to talk with others like ourselves for many years, and then one day be told or stumble upon the one thing that seems to fill one of our longest lasting needs. The chance to know we are not alone in this world of NORMAL’S (which it is funny/sad? to say, makes up most of the paper holding professionals) who come to such conclusions, i.e. this group is detrimental. At what point did we ask, or mention that we cared what they think of this group?
Well said. I understand the offense. Narcissism abounds in the Mental Health Profession, and the fact that they felt the need to sit in jury, to condemn this group, the people who take part in it, seems to point that seeing all side of a give situation, understanding that one persons truth is not always another’s, and putting their self importance in what they conclude as a professional stance, seems to point to them being on a soapbox and spouting " All praise me, for I have the answers".
G*d fetish/complex. Chrissie Heins, said it best "Spend a night in my veins" So to all you "professionals" deciding on if this is a positive manner of communication, emotional connection and supportive environment. Try to remember your group sessions while at school working on projects, the friends you talked with and confided in, the emotional highs and lows, then ask yourself if you had not been able to connect with others in your situation, would you have had a hard row to hoe, or if you would have completed school, for some. Human beings need to connect, communicate, and that is what these "professionals" are doing with this, doesn’t mean it is right or wrong, but it sure does not mane it has to hold any merit for others outside thier CLICK.
I like wording of this last part… poignant. : o) PS. Kudo’s , e I like your mind )
Ditto. Sierra of TN
Response:
Hi I plural pleased to meet you been keeping up with your posts but never seem to know what to say But I think you took our words right out of our mouth Kudo’s I Plural We like your mind ) J/C
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Webster’s "New World Thesaurus" Gossip: tattle, prattle, tell tales, talk idly, "chat", chatter, rumor, report, tell secrets, blab, babble, repeat. Offense, Opinion and the offense of opinion, I think that these are part of all communication no matter what the form/lable it takes. I try to see communication as being paramount to the relationship of human beings on all levels. As far as a group of people with "paper" feeling that their "opinion" holds merit, it does, with them and only them or those who accept their conclusions. Myself, I think that they should probably live as we do, alone, without the ability, support network in person, to talk with others like ourselves for many years, and then one day be told or stumble upon the one thing that seems to fill one of our longest lasting needs. The chance to know we are not alone in this world of NORMAL’S (which it is funny/sad? to say, makes up most of the paper holding professionals) who come to such conclusions, i.e. this group is detrimental. At what point did we ask, or mention that we cared what they think of this group? Narcissism abounds in the Mental Health Profession, and the fact that they felt the need to sit in jury, to condemn this group, the people who take part in it, seems to point that seeing all side of a give situation, understanding that one persons truth is not always another’s, and putting their self importance in what they conclude as a professional stance, seems to point to them being on a soapbox and spouting " All praise me, for I have the answers". Chrissie Heins, said it best "Spend a night in my veins" So to all you "professionals" deciding on if this is a positive manner of communication, emotional connection and supportive environment. Try to remember your group sessions while at school working on projects, the friends you talked with and confided in, the emotional highs and lows, then ask yourself if you had not been able to connect with others in your situation, would you have had a hard row to hoe, or if you would have completed school, for some. Human beings need to connect, communicate, and that is what these "professionals" are doing with this, doesn’t mean it is right or wrong, but it sure does not mane it has to hold any merit for others outside thier CLICK. I Plural PS. Kudo’s , e I like your mind )
Response:
we here in our little clan appreciate the information that you have passed on to us thanx J/C – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Is there any moral justification for Ts (or most non-dissoids) lurking here but not talking to us? (Please don’t try the "we don’t want to disturb the interactions"; you’re doing that already by lurking.) When is a lurker not a lurker? I read this news group from time but not regularly. Last time I looked at the FAQ for this newsgroup, there was nothing there that forbade therapists from jumping in. I have gotten flamed for posting here because after all I’m not dissociative, and I have gotten flamed for NOT posting when someone assumed I am constantly "lurking" and reading every message. I have been accused of taking a superior attitude by putting my identifying info in my signature (the info is there in the interest of full disclosure; I don’t want anyone to have the idea that I’m trying to hide my profession when I post to asd). I won’t speak for any other therapist, but I don’t get involved in online discussions about people’s dissociative experiences because this is a support group and therapists aren’t needed (or wanted) to do that here. I also don’t give people "therapy" or even advice online–it would be unethical–and who asked me to, anyway? But I do try to answer questions that a therapist would know the answer to, such as where to locate resources, definitions for various things, relevant literature, etc. I know some people find I’ve posted helpful things, and others of course please feel free not to read things with my email address on it. My office: 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Cleveland, OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 ISSD office: 60 Revere Drive, Suite 500 Northbrook, IL 60062 Phone: Voice: 847-480-0899 Fax: 847-480-9282 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
Response:
Peter, I tried to reply to the points you made and it really had me mixing alot. Opinion is what we hold as true to us on any given topic, topics being diverse and dynamic as they are, based on the fact that the emotional mind and rational mind come into play when placing said merit, opinions will always be the corner stone of communication, relationships, and interaction with other human beings. Also just because you agree with one opinion does not mean you accept the complete package as it is laid out to you. The point of what I am trying to say is this: I for one thank you for your straight forward manner in which you face opinion and in turn express your opinion, out opinions are to some degree what make us / indicate who we are. I also welcome you here on your merits ) It is the person, not the profession that is in question, at times the latter over shadows and consumes the meaning of the first. The label of Therapist, Psychologist, Psychiatrist, MD, PDH, CNE, MCSE, WBB ), is no different than the labels used to indicate an illness, such as oh I don’t know, dare I say DID, Bipolar, Panic/Anxiety? The point is, people are not the label, the label is an indicator to certain points about the person. I (am, sic) have DID, PTSD, Bipolar II and also Hepatitis C, I am not DID, I am not PTSD, nor am I Bipolar II any more than I am Hepatitis C. Each of these labels describe a condition that I deal with on a daily basis. I am also a Novell CNE, Mechanical CAD Designer and Computer Graphics Artist / Artist… This said, I am all of these things, meaning I have either the symptoms of them or the skill set to accomplish the tasks involved with them. There are not who I am as a person. There are opinions that I build in each of them and those reflect my position on those subjects, which does not dictate who I am, just how I think to accomplish what is asked/needed of me. With some who have these labels (indicators for a process of therapy and treatment) consume the person (this happens to me as with most) and they now become the illness, affliction, disorder, it gets to be a clouded basis for opinion at best. People in general become what they do, as with anything you put your life times work into, you can (some do very much so) tend to forget who you are in all of it and become it. This is a sad thing, because not only does it limit your ability to function at your peak and best level, it holds back much of what drove you in the first place to your chosen profession. I know that there is a level where you hit the point of needing to know there is a glass ceiling, at which point Therapist, Doctor or what have you is beyond a client, but when you passes through this barrier, the part of you that was driving you to become who you are at that point, must not be left behind. I think that what gets to allot of people in here is the few (few can become many even if the numbers are not great, by the actions taken and the damage done) that have come in here, sitting above that barrier and throwing opinions around as if so much gospel for the masses in here to pick up and follow then down their path of all healing greatness and knowledge. I read once that there was a meeting of Therapist’s and Psychologists with a speaker stating the fact that chating (casual conversation) with a client(indicator of station in their eyes) was not a healthy thing and should be avoided. In reading this one thought came to mind: Why would I trust this person who would not talk with me about the weather, my dog, my car, the up coming election? If I mean so little to them then why would I even attempt it? To me these people have now become the label and let the human factor that is supposed to make them who they are, go. That leaves me no choice but to ignore them, because after all we’re only human. All this said, Thank you for being here and your posts, opinions. Hope this does not up set anyone After all it is only my opinion…. I Plural
Response:
Is there any moral justification for Ts (or most non-dissoids) lurking here but not talking to us? (Please don’t try the "we don’t want to disturb the interactions"; you’re doing that already by lurking.)
When is a lurker not a lurker? I read this news group from time but not regularly. Last time I looked at the FAQ for this newsgroup, there was nothing there that forbade therapists from jumping in. I have gotten flamed for posting here because after all I’m not dissociative, and I have gotten flamed for NOT posting when someone assumed I am constantly "lurking" and reading every message. I have been accused of taking a superior attitude by putting my identifying info in my signature (the info is there in the interest of full disclosure; I don’t want anyone to have the idea that I’m trying to hide my profession when I post to asd). I won’t speak for any other therapist, but I don’t get involved in online discussions about people’s dissociative experiences because this is a support group and therapists aren’t needed (or wanted) to do that here. I also don’t give people "therapy" or even advice online–it would be unethical–and who asked me to, anyway? But I do try to answer questions that a therapist would know the answer to, such as where to locate resources, definitions for various things, relevant literature, etc. I know some people find I’ve posted helpful things, and others of course please feel free not to read things with my email address on it. My office: 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Cleveland, OH 44130 Phone: Voice: 440-845-9011, press 6; Fax: 440-845-9013 ISSD office: 60 Revere Drive, Suite 500 Northbrook, IL 60062 Phone: Voice: 847-480-0899 Fax: 847-480-9282 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD
Response:
x-no-archive: yes Just one little thing, or maybe two, I can see a T starting out with a belief about this ng as with many other things, that comes from the conventional wisdom of their peer group or a text book.
True, until they have been faced with and have actually involved themselves with a situation they can only basis opinion on the tools they have had at hand. The key to me then is will they hear me out if I see it differently?
If not, I would question the need to dealw ith that person, you are attepting to communicate, if they in turn, turn your thoughts, feelings an opinions away out of hand. Well, screw em for lack of better words at the moment. Convictions can be a very real wall between listening and hearing. I’m assuming that to most people, the degree of difference between what we as DID’s and other dissoids experience in life is beyond their ability to imagine. Just those words say nothing as compared to the experience.
But there are common instances in a person life that they can pull from to begin to grasp what it is like. If they only attempt to. This said, it can be comapared to any other desease in mnay aspects. So they may understand the words, but not the experience.
No, not in totality, no one could, just as no one knows what it is like for me to have Hepatitis C, the emotional effects it has on me/(us) or the pain involved it in, unless they have it. It would be presumptious to say the least if not out right ignorant for them to feel so, and deffintly ignorant for them to state it! They may have no idea how very different and alone and alienated we all tend to feel. They may not understand that for us, not connecting with other dissoids is equivalent to not connecting at all basically.
YES!!!!!! I think if anyone (other than a true Narcissist ie NPD) knew this they would never speak against it.
Um, depending on ther person, you know I had a person tell me that possesion was not out of the question in a chat once! I almost spit my soda on my monitor, did hit the keyboard though ) Just as astri’s example illustrated so vividly how removed they truly are from what we live every day (the "simulation" of the DID experience that she added a bit of authenticity to).
True, if they really wanted to learn something they could have dresed in all Tommy clothes, got a J Curl and went to apply for a laon just to see what it was like to be black.. With their reasoning and actions you can not even begin to attempt to say that they had a true desire to understand. I mean come on… I think only a SO or very close friend or a T who is provided sufficient information etc and works with DID’s long enough can even begin to understand what it is like.
Empathy and understanding are not limited to any group, even us… Actually, my T of 5 years has me seeing a different T that she suggested because she had not been involved with DID before. I want to put emphasis on "involved with" because she did not say "delt with" as if it were some kind of desease. In doing this, I feel she did not remove the person from the disorder, which is what so many seem to feel is the process to healing, I also do not know or understand how they could come to such a conclusion? Anyway, getting back to Suezann, I still talk with her today, on the phone when we like or in person. We are friends in fact and we talk as friends, durring our therapy sessions of the past we did so also, but there was a point, that she would say, ok John, be honest and lets look at this, when she would say this, I knew without it being spoken, that she was now the therapist and was nudging me back onto the chosen path for that session. Then without a ripple in the preverbal pool of traqualility we would flow back to being two friends talking and things progressed to the eventual outcome. Call it manipulation, call it a understanding, call it what you will, she knew how to control herself and me/(us) so that the work that needed to be done was completed while also never slipping into the disattached mode of doctor patient. She is now a very large part of my therapy, outside of sessions ) , she reads all she can, talks with me, asks question, dissimulates (takes them apart) answers and asks more questions. She also has never spoken of anything that indicates she is jumping on the DID saviour band wagon, but she has told me she wants to understand as much as she can, so if she ever runs into anyone in need, she can have a good starting place for form her opinions. ( by the way, Suezann is the one who brought us out of our shell, gave us the chance to express ourselves and also taught us what communication is, or gave us a good starting point ) A point to note: Suezann was s*xually ab*sed as a young teen and had been in treatment herself for a couple of years, this in fact was what led her into the desire to be a therapist. As far as them reading, lurking here, it doesn’t much matter to me in some personal sense. However, I can’t help but think that maybe they’ll catch even a whiff of what it is like being DID if they read, and some is better than none.
Um, only if they can remove "SELF" from the process of assimilating the information accessed… For example: Suezann, she will say something like "I feel, or I think" and then back up and tell me, well explain to me so I can have a chance to really understand and form an opinion on what I feel or think. She reminds herself that she is trying to learn something, She is not in fact attpeting to fit it into any little nitch she will feel comfort with it being in. I once said to her, You know I get tired of all the people who ask question that really do noy care for your answer if it does not fit into the answer they have already formed themselves. Ego ergo I go, if I do not know the answer I am lacking and I am all knowing so how could I not know the answer already and if your reply does not fit my answer you must be wrong, and in fact with some they feel this so deepy they feel an insistent need, no compulsion to exaplain your short comming and bring you into the light of understanding! Kinda like a Missionary if you look at it just right !! D And I myself would say who am I to tell anyone that they should not read a public forum? What they do with it afterwards is obviously beyond our control.
Hilter, and any other dictator has and will use such a manner of controlling the masses so that the only possibly source of information is based on what they preach!!! Besides, this forum is a threat to their position in many aspects. Some true, some imagined… But your exactly right in what you say!! I’d certainly rather people read here than watched stuff like Wonderland or even Cybil or the other sensationalized movies etc.
Those who suggest knowldge by such means are the ones who are the type to state that they too have a gay, lesbian, black friend… ) I Plural (Daryl: the gang)
Response:
They may have no idea how very different and alone and alienated we all tend to feel. They may not understand that for us, not connecting with other dissoids is equivalent to not connecting at all basically. (big snippage to highlight this point which spoke so clearly to me)
Very large yes to this. They may think that they understand our loneliness, but I doubt that they ever really could. Only here is it possible to speak with those who really do know. Until I found asd, there was no place at all that I had any belonging. jane Before you buy.
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I’m assuming that to most people, the degree of difference between what we as DID’s and other dissoids experience in life is beyond their ability to imagine. Just those words say nothing as compared to the experience. So they may understand the words, but not the experience. They may have no idea how very different and alone and alienated we all tend to feel. They may not understand that for us, not connecting with other dissoids is equivalent to not connecting at all basically.
you know, Jane DID, pointed something out to me in my first reply that had totally slipped past me. I was in a mode, zone, train of thought, that put blinders on me for the moment. I was looking at it as the feeling being the same for anyone with a serious illness or issues. (mental disorder irks me to no end, by deifinition everyone on this planet that is alive is living in mental disorder at any given moment) Seeing and looking at it again, as Jan DID pointed out, what it is clearly saying to me now. Alone, that feeling of emptyness that void which we exist in, only broken by chance when we get to meet one to one with another like us. People really don’t have a clue unless they feel it, the void we live and breath in, even when surrounded by (good) family and friends. When we should be having the time of our lives, something that others take for granted is the fact that they have a chance to step outside any issue that they face, be it work, family, relationship or otherwise. When you are DID or anyone of the other issues that envoke this emptyness, you exist in it, and sometimes, maybe, get a chance to step out side of it for a moment. Earlier I posted a grahic I created trying to depict how I felt being DID. Thing is, this alone, this feeling of complete emptyness, that is what seems to come out of all of my writing, art work, poems, all of it. It is what I try so hard to show to others and fail so badly at. They could not understand it because to them alone is an act, a word, a description, it is not an existance.. I apoligise to you , Jane and anyone else who reads the earlier post and assumes I tried to belittle it, or turned a cold shoulder to it. Feel ike crap now.. sorry
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Hi I plural pleased to meet you been keeping up with your posts but never seem to know what to say But I think you took our words right out of our mouth
It is good to meet you also Cliff ) Hope your day is going well and that there is a smile for you each day! I Plural (Daryl: the gang)
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p/m Peter, Did I inadvertently suggest that my post was about you? I didn’t mean to. I don’t consider you to be a lurker. IAE, I seem to have touched a nerve for you. I didn’t mean to do that. I used your gossip post bc there seemed to be many parallels between the two situations to me. First, you seemed to be very sensitive about L’s post about Ross. I think this is a similarly sensitive area for many ppl here. I know that my last post about this got more support by far than any other post I’ve ever written. That shocked me bc I’d expected a lot of ppl to be upset or at least contra. Second, in both situations, ppl were talking about others who weren’t reading and so couldn’t respond. Whether by choice (as with the Ts I described who could easily talk to us, either anon or non-anon, if they wanted) or not (as with L, whom you criticized and who I assume would ask Ross about the information she sought if she could), ppl were talking about others instead of to them. They were in some ways treating those others as objects of curiosity, not as subjects, as fellow human beings with feelings, concerns, and pov that were just as valid as theirs. Further, the Ts trill was describing (whether they thought that asd was "good" or "bad") were being paternalistic imo. Third, I couldn’t see any moral justification for the discussion to which trill was referring. I assumed that others (e.g., the ppl engaging in that and similar behavior) would have a different pov. I thought it might be interesting for ppl with different pov to discuss it. I started thinking about this subject bc of your GOSSIP post and trill’s post. Probably bc I’m often irreverent and bc I’d been thinking of both your post and trill’s, I used your post as a model. I wasn’t trying to belittle your concerns. I was hoping that (1) doing so would suggest the parallels and (2) we (i.e., the ng, including lurkers) could talk about the content of the post. I truly hoped that it would provoke interest and promote a real exchange of ideas and diverse pov. Is there any moral justification for Ts (or most non-dissoids) lurking here but not talking to us? (Please don’t try the "we don’t want to disturb the interactions"; you’re doing that already by lurking.) When is a lurker not a lurker?
Do I get a prize if I guess? Is it a good one? Is there an answer, btw, or is this a rhetorical Q? ;) If you’re asking if I consider you to be a lurker, the answer is no. If I did, I would have e-mailed you a copy of my post so that you could respond. (Like I am with this one.) I don’t consider e. sue or nancewt to be lurkers, either. I read this news group from time but not regularly.
I think most regulars know that. Many other ppl also read from time to time. AFAIK, regular reading isn’t required of anyone. ASD isn’t an assigned course. ;) Last time I looked at the FAQ for this newsgroup, there was nothing there that forbade therapists from jumping in.
Nope. And I only remember you discouraging Ts from doing that once. I have gotten flamed for posting here because after all I’m not dissociative,
Fwiw, I’ve never assumed that. I haven’t assumed that you are, either. How would I (or other posters) know that? and I have gotten flamed for NOT posting when someone assumed I am constantly "lurking" and reading every message.
Well, we all know that Ts have no life. Look what trill’s T said that they talked about in their free time. ;) (Notice the overgeneralization of both Ts and asd posters. I’m sorry that those things happened. I don’t think they were at all fair to you. I have been accused of taking a superior attitude by putting my identifying info in my signature (the info is there in the interest of full disclosure; I don’t want anyone to have the idea that I’m trying to hide my profession when I post to asd).
I’m sorry that happened, too. I’d apologize for those things but I don’t think I’ve ever done anything remotely like. If I have, please tell me. I don’t think that’s fair, either. Degrees can be a sore point with some ppl, obviously, but I’m sorry that you’re in a no-win situation wrt that issue and that some ppl aren’t empathetic or civil about it. I won’t speak for any other therapist, but I don’t get involved in online discussions about people’s dissociative experiences because this is a support group and therapists aren’t needed (or wanted) to do that here. I also don’t give people "therapy" or even advice online–it would be unethical–and who asked me to, anyway?
I agree. It’s not only unethical, it’s dumb. How could you know us well enough to do that? I wouldn’t want a T who knew so little about me to advise me or do therapy. I esp wouldn’t want someone who was that reckless to advise me or esp to do therapy. I’m glad that you (and most of the other Ts here) don’t do that. Thanks. 
But I do try to answer questions that a therapist would know the answer to, such as where to locate resources, definitions for various things, relevant literature, etc.
Yes and I appreciate that. I know some people find I’ve posted helpful things, and others of course please feel free not to read things with my email address on it.
But, Peter, how could I make these semi-tongue-in-cheek posts? BTW, you never answered my question about how what trill described was ethical. That’s understandable bc afaik, I wasn’t talking about you. For one thing, you post here periodically. Further, you don’t seem condescending to me. I think there may have been a couple of posts where you seemed that way to me but they were atypical so I blew them off. E.g., did they reflect your bad day or mine? It wasn’t at all typical, imo, so I didn’t really care. I think almost everyone can seem that way occasionally, fwiw. Certainly including me. BTW, are you obliquely suggesting that I should think that you’re condescending? <g I’m lost. I’m not sure who I was talking about but (according to trill’s post) some Ts discuss this group. Therefore I assume that they lurk here periodically and at least often enough to know what they’re discussing. Perhaps I’m giving them too much credit. <g Perhaps they enjoy data-free (or virtually data-free) analysis of other ppls’ activities and of particular fora. I hope not. Again, I apologize if you thought that my post was directed to you. It wasn’t. e — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – They may have no idea how very different and alone and alienated we all tend to feel. They may not understand that for us, not connecting with other dissoids is equivalent to not connecting at all basically. (big snippage to highlight this point which spoke so clearly to me) Very large yes to this. They may think that they understand our loneliness, but I doubt that they ever really could. Only here is it possible to speak with those who really do know. Until I found asd, there was no place at all that I had any belonging. jane
alone, true, very true even my wife who is my soul mate does not really understand the alone, it bothers her too, she comments on it at times and I can not begin to describe it to her and do it justice! how can someone who has never felt it, in the manner that we do begin to understand it, when we can not even describe it and do it in a manner that really makes them feel it? damn…. um, have to come back to this cause its all mixed up inside right now… I Plural
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Okay, I just posted something that could be construed as a flame of Peter Barach. I don’t want to try and discourage him from posting here or reading here. I think that it is good for him, and sometimes he gives us information that some of us can use. I used him and his initials as a model of the elitism and separatism that exists between the professionals of the mh field and the people whom they purport to help. I actually believe that the mh professionals who associate themselves w/ISSD and asd probably are better than a lot of others. My t, whom I respect and depend on, and whom, on a good day I like, participates in it. I’m glad it exists. I just want to participate in it. I want all of us to be invited to participate in it as respected and valued members of the community of people dealing with dissociation. trill * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m assuming that to most people, the degree of difference between what we as DID’s and other dissoids experience in life is beyond their ability to imagine. Just those words say nothing as compared to the experience. So they may understand the words, but not the experience. They may have no idea how very different and alone and alienated we all tend to feel. They may not understand that for us, not connecting with other dissoids is equivalent to not connecting at all basically. you know, Jane DID, pointed something out to me in my first reply that had totally slipped past me. I was in a mode, zone, train of thought, that put blinders on me for the moment. I was looking at it as the feeling being the same for anyone with a serious illness or issues. (mental disorder irks me to no end, by deifinition everyone on this planet that is alive is living in mental disorder at any given moment) Seeing and looking at it again, as Jan DID pointed out, what it is clearly saying to me now. Alone, that feeling of emptyness that void which we exist in, only broken by chance when we get to meet one to one with another like us. People really don’t have a clue unless they feel it, the void we live and breath in, even when surrounded by (good) family and friends. When we should be having the time of our lives, something that others take for granted is the fact that they have a chance to step outside any issue that they face, be it work, family, relationship or otherwise. When you are DID or anyone of the other issues that envoke this emptyness, you exist in it, and sometimes, maybe, get a chance to step out side of it for a moment. Earlier I posted a grahic I created trying to depict how I felt being DID. Thing is, this alone, this feeling of complete emptyness, that is what seems to come out of all of my writing, art work, poems, all of it. It is what I try so hard to show to others and fail so badly at. They could not understand it because to them alone is an act, a word, a description, it is not an existance.. I apoligise to you , Jane and anyone else who reads the earlier post and assumes I tried to belittle it, or turned a cold shoulder to it. Feel ike crap now.. sorry Hi, I Plural,
Absolutely no need to apologise to me. I thought that you were understanding that part of the original post perfectly with your big YES!!!! comment. Weren’t you? I liked all of your comments, but that part of the post was so exact ,to me anyway, that I had to pick it out to add my several cents worth. For me, that not connecting with anyone is a very sad huge state most of the time.It is, as you say, my existance, just the way it always has been. My life. That the ones who live outside in the world, those who are not like us, prolly don’t understand that asd is a true lifeline, a connection to understanding others,was just so beautifully stated, that I wanted to emphasize it, that’s all. Hope this clears up that you don’t need to feel badly on my account. Friends? Jane Before you buy.
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Hi, I Plural, Absolutely no need to apologise to me. I thought that you were understanding that part of the original post perfectly with your big YES!!!! comment. Weren’t you?
yes, I was and am, but after re-reading it I could see a point that it seemed I had over shadowed it with being analytical. I do that at times and things sometimes come out as if I have blinders on, its one of the things we are working on. The bipolar part kicks in sometimes and oh heck, it just seemed to me that I had possibly ignored the feeling she was expressing or the direction she was going with her statement… I liked all of your comments, but that part of the post was so exact ,to
me anyway, that I had to pick it out to add my several cents worth. For me, that not connecting with anyone is
a very sad huge state most of the time. It is, as you say, my existance, just the way it always has been. My life. That the ones who live outside in the world, those who are not like us, prolly don’t understand that asd is a true lifeline, a connection to understanding others,was just so beautifully stated, that I wanted to emphasize it, that’s all. Hope this clears up that you don’t need to feel badly on my account.
No, no not on your account, but because of what we saw in what we had said and not said. I hope it did not come across as if I was indicating that you had been upset with me, just that after reading what you had replied, that, what I read, it made me pause and rethink myself. nothing bad ) Friends? Jane
of course !! yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes ) ok D I Plural (Daryl: the gang) PS: please, if you do see us side stepping or ignoring something we should see or you have a different light that did not shine for us when we post, please, do let me know as this is as I said, something that we need work on. It is one of the reasons I have problems being in public with, I never know what is going to happen or what might be said…
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Whew! Glad you were not upset with us here! We don’t do angry very well at all. (understatement!) Glad that we are friends. One thing I like about here at asd, is that people will talk about how things feel and seem to them. I like to read other peoples’ ideas, and they often help me see things in ways different to my own. I think that is important.It expands my horizons! If I disagree with you, I might point out how I see something in a different light, but I might not, because what you said had given me a new way to see. Like your revisiting that post? I don’t know that I would presume to tell you that you should see something in a different way from the way you see it. I might tell you how I see it differently, but I wouldn’t say that your way was inferior. I think that we all see similar things, from our DID/MPD angle, or association with the problem, but we are sometimes different in how these things seem and feel to us. That is not wrong or bad or anything. It just is. I’m not sure that I am making myself clear here. Sorry if this is muddily explained! I have spent my life trying to see how others do things, and how they think,so that I can figure out how to be and what to feel, and I still do that here at asd. The more opinions the better! Jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi, I Plural, Absolutely no need to apologise to me. I thought that you were understanding that part of the original post perfectly with your big YES!!!! comment. Weren’t you? yes, I was and am, but after re-reading it I could see a point that it seemed I had over shadowed it with being analytical. I do that at times and things sometimes come out as if I have blinders on, its one of the things we are working on. The bipolar part kicks in sometimes and oh heck, it just seemed to me that I had possibly ignored the feeling she was expressing or the direction she was going with her statement… I liked all of your comments, but that part of the post was so exact ,to me anyway, that I had to pick it out to add my several cents worth. For me, that not connecting with anyone is a very sad huge state most of the time. It is, as you say, my existance, just the way it always has been. My life. That the ones who live outside in the world, those who are not like us, prolly don’t understand that asd is a true lifeline, a connection to understanding others,was just so beautifully stated, that I wanted to emphasize it, that’s all. Hope this clears up that you don’t need to feel badly on my account. No, no not on your account, but because of what we saw in what we had said and not said. I hope it did not come across as if I was indicating that you had been upset with me, just that after reading what you had replied, that, what I read, it made me pause and rethink myself. nothing bad ) Friends? Jane of course !! yes yes yes yes yes yes yes yes ) ok D I Plural (Daryl: the gang) PS: please, if you do see us side stepping or ignoring something we should see or you have a different light that did not shine for us when we post, please, do let me know as this is as I said, something that we need work on. It is one of the reasons I have problems being in public with, I never know what is going to happen or what might be said…
Before you buy.
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e. Ha Ha. Thanks for that laugh. alt.support.e. Yes, I certainly wouldn’t mind and alt.support.trill. Once, when I was a kid (in my 20s, maybe a teen, can’t remember), I daydreamed about a world in which everyone would be in love with me, but no one would be interested in anyone else at all. That way, I could have my pick of anyone at anytime and not have to worry about the complications of jealousy in any directions from anyone at all. But, since than I’ve come to respect jealousy, as well as other people’s other feelings. Still, the thing that I like most about thrpy is that I don’t have to worry about anyone’s feelings but mine. I’ve never had that kind of forum for myself before. (But, truth? I do think about my T’s feelings. And, I can’t keep myself from caring about him, even though he is a man – and that, gang, is a joke on me and my years-past attempts at living a separtist existance. I’m over that, too. At least I think I am ;} shut up, trill. They’ll get to know you too well. okay. adios vos no, no. that’s singular nos vemos, trillemos (which is pronounced tree ay’ moce) * Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet’s Discussion Network * The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet – Free!
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I won’t speak for any other therapist, but I don’t get involved in online discussions about people’s dissociative experiences because this is a support group and therapists aren’t needed (or wanted) to do that here.
I missed this the first time. I wouldn’t mind Ts joining the discussion about ppls’ dissociative experiences. I wouldn’t mind Ts joining any of the discussions. I wouldn’t want them to try to do online therapy or act like they had all the answers. (Would that mean we had all the questions? That may be even better and more important. ;) Obviously, other ppl may. (Now if we only had alt.support.e, I wouldn’t have to worry about what other ppl wanted. e — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:
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I won’t speak for any other therapist, but I don’t get involved in online discussions about people’s dissociative experiences because this is a support group and therapists aren’t needed (or wanted) to do that here. I missed this the first time. I wouldn’t mind Ts joining the discussion about ppls’ dissociative experiences. I wouldn’t mind Ts joining any of the discussions. I wouldn’t want them to try to do online therapy or act like they had all the answers.
I agree. (Would that mean we had all the questions? That may be even better and more important. ;) Obviously, other ppl may.
: o) (Now if we only had alt.support.e, I wouldn’t have to worry about what other ppl wanted.
ROTFL!!! You could go to Egroups.com and form one! *grin* Sierra of TN
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Okay, I just posted something that could be construed as a flame of Peter Barach. I don’t want to try and discourage him from posting here or reading here. I think that it is good for him, and sometimes he gives us information that some of us can use. I used him and his initials as a model of the elitism and separatism that exists between the professionals of the mh field and the people whom they purport to help.
This is interesting bc I use the ppl your T described (i.e., those, perhaps including your T, who lurk here but don’t participate and esp those who discuss either asd or its participants) as a model of the separatism and elitism that exists between professionals and clients in the MH field. To me, Peter doesn’t seem elitist bc he talks to ppl here. Ppl who respect me talk to me. They interact with me. They don’t treat me like I was toxic or fragile or whatever justification/rationalization they use to avoid dealing with me. I’ve known Peter online for a few years. (And, fwiw, we’ve often disagreed.) He’s always treated me with respect. AFAICS he treats the other dissoids here with respect and doesn’t look down on any of us. From what I’ve seen he interacts with us instead of "studying" us like the lurkers seem to be doing. To me, what your T described (and may have participated in) is much more like the activities of anthropologists or zoologists who study cultures. They’re the ones who read but don’t deign to talk to us. They’re the ones who talk about us instead of to us. They’re the ones who seem to think that their opinions are so valuable that they don’t need to interact with lots of us (outside of therapy as well as in it) in order to understand dissoids or what’s good for us. (BTW, I thought most anthropologists interacted with the culture they were studying which seems less much separatist or elitist than Ts – or anyone else – lurking here and then talking about us.) Why do you think Peter is separatist? Elitist? Why is posting with initials worse than not posting at all? I’d like to understand your pov. I actually believe that the mh professionals who associate themselves w/ISSD and asd probably are better than a lot of others. My t, whom I respect and depend on, and whom, on a good day I like, participates in it. I’m glad it exists. I just want to participate in it. I want all of us to be invited to participate in it as respected and valued members of the community of people dealing with dissociation.
When ISSD started both professionals and clients participated. Now it’s almost completely professional. I think it would be difficult to include clients as equal participants (or even welcomed ones at this point. Maybe there could be some division or branch of ISSD or some other forum for getting to know each other and exchanging ideas. I’d like that, too. However, I don’t know many professionals who are interested in that and I don’t think I know any for whom that’s a priority. (I’d love to hear from any who think it’s a priority.) I think interested dissoids, Ts and other professionals need to find a way to convince more professionals and dissoids of the value of creating a community of ppl dealing with dissociation and chronic, early trauma. I don’t think the Ts’ relative lack of interest is necessarily malicious. (At least for many Ts.) I think that some Ts would like to join such a community but don’t see forming or interacting in it as one of their priorities. Any ideas? Maybe you could ask your T why he doesn’t participate here. Maybe he’d tell you in what type of fora he’d want to interact with dissoids. Maybe he has some workable suggestions for creating a community in which both Ts and dissoids feel comfortable and want to participate. Does anyone here have any ideas about that? I don’t think that our joining a professional forum like the ISSD would work well. (I could be wrong. I’d like that. <s) IME even if you understand what the professionals are talking about (and, e.g., have cogent criticisms or comments about the methodology), most ppl discount or dismiss the comments of ppl who lack the right credentials. I think that’s true in most fields, not just in MH. I also think that it would be too expensive for most of us to attend the annual ISSD conference. Even if we did, I’m not sure what that would accomplish. If we could present a "scientific" discussion (and, imo, few that I’ve seen are scientific; most are clinical, sometimes spiced with some science), I’m not sure how we’d get many therapists to attend or take us seriously. Ideas, anyone? I would really like to have a community where we could discuss our ideas and concerns, like trill described. I’d like to be able to talk about the latest techniques and research. I know a few other clients from other fora who’d like that, too. I know some ppl here would like it. I think such a forum or community is a periodic and perennial topic of discussion among many dissoids. It would be really good if we could get something off the ground. e — For info about this service, see http://www.twwells.com/anon/ or e-mail:
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e, For this one I’m going to use your scroll through for response method.
I think that in the following section I make a point of reiterating that I am not opposed to Peter Barach’s presence, or the presence of any t, mh professional, or interested person who is not dissociative from participating or just reading at asd. In fact, I think that we provide a good education forum for some. Lurking doesn’t bother me. It keeps me anonymous, but it doesn’t bother me. Okay, I just posted something that could be construed as a flame of Peter Barach. I don’t want to try and discourage him from posting here or reading here. I think that it is good for him, and sometimes he gives us information that some of us can use. I used him and his initials as a model of the elitism and separatism that exists between the professionals of the mh field and the people whom they purport to help.
I don’t consider Peter Barach to be a separatist. I think that his participation on this list indicates that he is not a separatist. I don’t know if he is elitist in any way about anything. I think, however, that between some of the ways that he’s presented some of the information that he’s shared with us since I’ve joined asd and his abundant professional disclosures in his signature line that he might be perceived as elitist. Sometimes the accoutrements of an elitist class get attached to members of that class who wish to leave behind the legacy of oppression associated with that class. You know, stuff like white skin privilege, or gender privileges… men get them, right? This, even though some men are opposed to patriarchy and some white people are opposed to racism and paternalism. This is interesting bc I use the ppl your T described (i.e., those, perhaps including your T, who lurk here but don’t participate and esp those who discuss either asd or its participants) as a model of the separatism and elitism that exists between professionals and clients in the MH field.
My t doesn’t lurk here. He doesn’t read here. He doesn’t participate here. He thinks this is a forum for us (dissoids) and that we should have it as ours. He advises dissociative clients to seek dialogue and support here. Sometimes I describe a thread from the ng to him and forward some stuff that I write to him. I do this for help in my thrpeutic process. He is willing to read that stuff, and I appreciate it. He complained to me about Ts who think that it is unhealthy for dissoids to dialogue with each other in an un-T-supervised forum. He disagrees with that. To me, Peter doesn’t seem elitist bc he talks to ppl here. Ppl who respect me talk to me. They interact with me. They don’t treat me like I was toxic or fragile or whatever justification/rationalization they use to avoid dealing with me. I’ve known Peter online for a few years. (And, fwiw, we’ve often disagreed.) He’s always treated me with respect. AFAICS he treats the other dissoids here with respect and doesn’t look down on any of us. From what I’ve seen he interacts with us instead of "studying" us like the lurkers seem to be doing.
I’m glad to hear of this healthy relationship between you and Peter Barach. I agree with you that there is a possibility that lurking therapists at asd are studying us in the fashion I described anthropologists to be studying there subjects. I have to live with that, because this is a public forum. I hope that they, if they are actually here (I don’t know if they are) will learn something about us that will make them regard us with more respect than when they started lurking. That’s the best I can do with such a situation. To me, what your T described (and may have participated in)
Nope. I don’t believe he did this. I believe that he tells me the truth about himself and he says he doesn’t do this. is much more like the activities of anthropologists or zoologists who study cultures. They’re the ones who read but don’t deign to talk to us. They’re the ones who talk about us instead of to us. They’re the ones who seem to think that their opinions are so valuable that they don’t need to interact with lots of us (outside of therapy as well as in it) in order to understand dissoids or what’s good for us.
I still agree with you on this. I’m not sure about these lurkers actually being here though. What do you know about it? (BTW, I thought most anthropologists interacted with the culture they were studying which seems less much separatist or elitist than Ts – or anyone else – lurking here and then talking about us.)
There are large philosophical arguments re: anthropology, the position of privilege that anthropologists inhabit in relationship to their subjects, the ideological constructs of "primitive" and "advanced" and what those terms imply about the attitudes of the people who use them, and the ideological filters through which anthropologists make their studies. At least such debates take place in the academy or university. Sometimes I am so inundated with the controversies and dialogues in the academy that I don’t see what’s going on outside the ivory towers. I try to stay in touch by being involved in community organizing and maintaining a social life among people who are not involved in academia. (Heaven forbid I should ever be accused of being and elitist ;} Why do you think Peter is separatist? Elitist?
I made neither accusation of Peter Barach. I did, in my first post re: the ISSD conference and our participation in it, I mean the one that I answered Peter Barach with, point out the relative privilege he has to post his credentials to my relative lack of freedom to comfortably post even my real name. That’s how it is. I don’t blame Peter Barach for that situation. That he reads and participates here, and that he is involved in ISSD signify to me that he might work on changing such things. I don’t know. Why is posting with initials worse than not posting at all?
It isn’t. I didn’t say that it is. I made no comment contrasting these two things at all. I’d like to understand your pov. I actually believe that the mh professionals who associate themselves w/ISSD and asd probably are better than a lot of others. My t, whom I respect and depend on, and whom, on a good day I like, participates in it. I’m glad it exists. I just want to participate in it. I want all of us to be invited to participate in it as respected and valued members of the community of people dealing with dissociation. When ISSD started both professionals and clients participated.
I am glad to learn this. Now it’s almost completely professional.
I’m sorry it ended up this way. I think it would be difficult to include clients as equal participants (or even welcomed ones at this point.
I want to give it a try. Maybe there could be some division or branch of ISSD or some other forum for getting to know each other and exchanging ideas. I’d like that, too. However, I don’t know many professionals who are interested in that and I don’t think I know any for whom that’s a priority. (I’d love to hear from any who think it’s a priority.) I think interested dissoids, Ts and other professionals need to find a way to convince more professionals and dissoids of the value of creating a community of ppl dealing with dissociation and chronic, early trauma.
I agree with you. I don’t think the Ts’ relative lack of interest is necessarily malicious. (At least for many Ts.) I think that some Ts would like to join such a community but don’t see forming or interacting in it as one of their priorities.
I don’t know. That would be too bad. Any ideas? Maybe you could ask your T why he doesn’t participate here.
I’ve addressed this earlier in this post. Maybe he’d tell you in what type of fora he’d want to interact with dissoids. Maybe he has some workable suggestions for creating a community in which both Ts and dissoids feel comfortable and want to participate. Does anyone here have any ideas about that?
We are already in dialogue about this. I don’t think that our joining a professional forum like the ISSD would work well. (I could be wrong. I’d like that. <s)
I think that depends on how we handle it. I think that many of us have good ideas and are quite articulate at expressing them regarding our treatment and what we want in terms of healing. You, for example, make your points in clear, direct terms. You handle controversy well. You are able to agree to disagree and maintain good relations among people with diverse views. You would probably be good on a panel or in a team lead workshop. How about it? IME even if you understand what the professionals are talking about (and, e.g., have cogent criticisms or comments about the methodology), most ppl discount or dismiss the comments of ppl who lack the right credentials. I think that’s true in most fields, not just in MH.
I agree with you entirely. I think we need to make ourselves understood as having some valid and important credentials re: the study of dissociation. I also think that it would be too expensive for most of us to attend the annual ISSD conference.
Yes. This is a problem. I think we should begin to address this immediately. I once attended a conference about literature in the age of AIDS. It was a professional conference for literature professors and writers. Numbers of people living with AIDS who fit neither of those professional categories but who had large investments in the development of culture concerned with HIV/AIDS applied to come. Most could neither afford the conference registration nor digs to stay in for it. A fund was created by those who had to give out … read more »
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I won’t speak for any other therapist, but I don’t get involved in online discussions about people’s dissociative experiences because this is a support group and therapists aren’t needed (or wanted) to do that here. I missed this the first time. I wouldn’t mind Ts joining the discussion about ppls’ dissociative experiences. I wouldn’t mind Ts joining any of the discussions. I wouldn’t want them to try to do online therapy or act like they had all the answers. I agree. (Would that mean we had all the questions? That may be even better and more important. ;) Obviously, other ppl may. : o) (Now if we only had alt.support.e, I wouldn’t have to worry about what other ppl wanted. ROTFL!!! You could go to Egroups.com and form one! *grin* Sierra of TN
And then, e, you would have to have all the questions and all the answers! Wouldn’t you miss the rest of us? :0) Jane Before you buy.
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