Thanks for the info.  I do know that they are really hearing stuff, because I have been in the room, and as much fun as it is fun to screw with people, in this case I am not fucking with the people…. One that I am most concerned about, has voices that she hears all the time. She has tried a couple of the AP, and they have not worked for her, and when she pushes up the dose, then she gets way too tired to function at all… jamie

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – HI, Recently I have seen several people in my support group have reported that they experiance hallucinations, both autiory and visual. how they know that?  was sumbody there tellin they weren’t seein’ what they were seein’ or hearin’ what they were hearin’… cuz if so, that person could’ah had a ::point’n laff:: agenda goin’ on with that dude… i mean, we set people up in my tat shop all’ah time ta look goofy so’s we could laff at em.  (we wuz bored mofos, i tell ya.) when my shrink asks me if i see or hear things that ain’t there , i generally turn muh head to the right’n say "SHUT UP, LITTLE MIKEY ! and zip yer fly"…. then "oh, sorry… how what were ya askin’ me?" my shrink thinks i’m real funny.  that’s why i like him best. Most of these indivuals are diagnosised with Depression, Borderline Personality Disorder, or Anxeity disorders. maybe they just like their imaginary friend and took’m along the road to adulthood with em.. i mean… imaginary friends are special and need love, too.. JUST LIKE YOU ! (welcome to my nayyyyy-ber–hoooooooood) 1. When the depression going into remission with someone that has depression with pschyotic features (the only pschyotic features are the hallucinations.) do the pschyotic features tend to disapear as well or do these tend to need to be treated sepratly with medication long term? …..wullllllllllllllllll, it stands ta reason that if tha hallucinations are featurs of the condition, (sorta like barnacles on a riverbank), ya remove tha host. the hanger oner is shit outta luck.. go find another iditiot, ya blood sucker you!  YEAH ! the moral to that story? move tha riverbank’n get yer oysters at pike place market.  (seattle, i tell ya… pioneer square… now GO !) 2. Do pschyotic features tend to be more biochemical, and require treatment iwth medication? this is a little of my beaten path… i mean… we went to extreme measures to acquire hallucination promoting substances.. (ya think i LIKED havin’ muh ass shot up with rock salt whilst climbin’ fences ta walk thru a muddy field pickin’ a fungus out’ah cow turds, … ‘n EATIN’ EM????) well, there is no free lunch, i s’pose. 3. Do pschyotic features ever go into remission with intensive pschyothearpy? god, i hope not.  psychosis is fun ta watch ! 4. What cources of treatment are available to someone with borderline personality disorder with hallucinations, that has not responded positivly to atypicals? THIS one i got… i can nail thissun on tha head el pronto, Jamie, muh niggah ! … COME LIVE WITH BELLE !  bam.  yer sanity has been redeemed by mere comparison. plus… (yer cute, Jamie… and you got lotsa drugs i could steal. don’t get mad when i do that cuz i’m real sensitive when people yell at me when i steal their stuff.) Thanks in advance for your help. ~tanya

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HI, Recently I have seen several people in my support group have reported that they experiance hallucinations, both autiory and visual.  Most of these indivuals are diagnosised with Depression, Borderline Personality Disorder, or Anxeity disorders.  One is diagnosised with Depression with Pschyotic features, borderline and PTSD. I have a couple questions to help me understand hallucinations. 1. When the depression going into remission with someone that has depression with pschyotic features (the only pschyotic features are the hallucinations.) do the pschyotic features tend to disapear as well or do these tend to need to be treated sepratly with medication long term? 2. Do pschyotic features tend to be more biochemical, and require treatment iwth medication? 3. Do pschyotic features ever go into remission with intensive pschyothearpy? 4. What cources of treatment are available to someone with borderline personality disorder with hallucinations, that has not responded positivly to atypicals? Thanks in advance for your help. Jamie

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HI, Recently I have seen several people in my support group have reported that they experiance hallucinations, both autiory and visual.

how they know that?  was sumbody there tellin they weren’t seein’ what they were seein’ or hearin’ what they were hearin’… cuz if so, that person could’ah had a ::point’n laff:: agenda goin’ on with that dude… i mean, we set people up in my tat shop all’ah time ta look goofy so’s we could laff at em.  (we wuz bored mofos, i tell ya.) when my shrink asks me if i see or hear things that ain’t there , i generally turn muh head to the right’n say "SHUT UP, LITTLE MIKEY ! and zip yer fly"…. then "oh, sorry… how what were ya askin’ me?" my shrink thinks i’m real funny.  that’s why i like him best. Most of these indivuals are diagnosised with Depression, Borderline Personality Disorder, or Anxeity disorders.

maybe they just like their imaginary friend and took’m along the road to adulthood with em.. i mean… imaginary friends are special and need love, too.. JUST LIKE YOU ! (welcome to my nayyyyy-ber–hoooooooood) 1. When the depression going into remission with someone that has depression with pschyotic features (the only pschyotic features are the hallucinations.) do the pschyotic features tend to disapear as well or do these tend to need to be treated sepratly with medication long term?

…..wullllllllllllllllll, it stands ta reason that if tha hallucinations are featurs of the condition, (sorta like barnacles on a riverbank), ya remove tha host. the hanger oner is shit outta luck.. go find another iditiot, ya blood sucker you!  YEAH ! the moral to that story? move tha riverbank’n get yer oysters at pike place market.  (seattle, i tell ya… pioneer square… now GO !) 2. Do pschyotic features tend to be more biochemical, and require treatment iwth medication?

this is a little of my beaten path… i mean… we went to extreme measures to acquire hallucination promoting substances.. (ya think i LIKED havin’ muh ass shot up with rock salt whilst climbin’ fences ta walk thru a muddy field pickin’ a fungus out’ah cow turds, … ‘n EATIN’ EM????) well, there is no free lunch, i s’pose. 3. Do pschyotic features ever go into remission with intensive pschyothearpy?

god, i hope not.  psychosis is fun ta watch ! 4. What cources of treatment are available to someone with borderline personality disorder with hallucinations, that has not responded positivly to atypicals?

THIS one i got… i can nail thissun on tha head el pronto, Jamie, muh niggah ! … COME LIVE WITH BELLE !  bam.  yer sanity has been redeemed by mere comparison. plus… (yer cute, Jamie… and you got lotsa drugs i could steal. don’t get mad when i do that cuz i’m real sensitive when people yell at me when i steal their stuff.) Thanks in advance for your help.

~tanya

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HI, I am currently in a support group with a number of other people.  One of the people that is in bad shape has PTSD.  He does not sleep well at all, at the most 5 hours a night.  He on on a huge dose of seroquel, tegretol, and an additional mood stabiler that I can’t remember.  But anyway, I am just wondering if you guys had any experiance in this area, and if you have any thoughs or suggestions that I could share with this person. Thanks, Jamie

Sigh….an antipsychotic and an anticonvulsant for PTSD? Rather make that an SSRI and if necessary a benzo. CBT is mandatory, possibly augmented with EMDR, a ridiculous therapy which actually seems to work for PTSD. Philip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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::I am currently in a support group with a number of other people.  One ::of the people that is in bad shape has PTSD.  He does not sleep well at ::all, at the most 5 hours a night.  He on on a huge dose of seroquel, ::tegretol, and an additional mood stabiler that I can’t remember.  But ::anyway, I am just wondering if you guys had any experiance in this ::area, and if you have any thoughs or suggestions that I could share ::with this person. Dear Jamie, If he is not improving with his current treatment, then he should think about getting a second opinion. In my opinion, therapy is a must with PTSD. Here is a link that "may" have some useful info for him. http://panicdisorder.about.com/od/ptsd/ http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/ptsdmenu.cfm Good luck to your friend. Jackie ~*~When you find yourself the victim of other people’s bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities; remember, things could be worse.  You could be them~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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HI, I am currently in a support group with a number of other people.  One of the people that is in bad shape has PTSD.  He does not sleep well at all, at the most 5 hours a night.  He on on a huge dose of seroquel, tegretol, and an additional mood stabiler that I can’t remember.  But anyway, I am just wondering if you guys had any experiance in this area, and if you have any thoughs or suggestions that I could share with this person. Thanks, Jamie — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

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Angel Sunday?

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Angel Sunday?

I don’t understand.

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Angel Sunday?

Oh — like Man Friday?

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… as they did To me.

Exactly.  A therapist who is not specifically trained to treat PTSD will do more harm than good.  S/he will work hard to remove your coping mechanisms without treating the underlying problem, leaving you worse off than before. S/he doesn’t understand what you need.  S/he will not react to your story in a useful way.  S/he may discount it as hysteria, listen with scientific curiosity, or worse — "poor thing" you, which is belittling.  A therapist I saw only once seemed numb.  I asked her why and she said, "I have to protect myself emotionally from the trauma of my clients."  No help there. A PTSD therapist will systematically approach and treat the trauma and ignore the coping mechanisms other therapists would tend to focus on.  S/he will believe you, and s/he will not cry when you tell your story.  S/he will take careful notes and have you tell it again and again until she fully understands what happened and how you felt about it.  S/he will not baby you or let you chat.  You are there to work.  S/he will be committed to helping you.  I remember Susan saying, "If you were so upset, why didn’t you call me?  You should call me if it gets bad.  If you never once call me on a night or a weekend, then you’re not really working hard."  When you’re better, s/he’ll notice way before you do, and s/he will encourage you get off the couch and move on with your life. If I could wave a magic wand I’d make you forget about the people who didn’t help you and then I’d help you find somebody who can.  It’s so easy to focus your rage on the unhelpful rather than on the real bad guys.

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Exactly.  A therapist who is not specifically trained to treat PTSD will do more harm than good.  S/he will work hard to remove your coping mechanisms without treating the underlying problem, leaving you worse off than before. S/he doesn’t understand what you need.  S/he will not react to your story in a useful way.  S/he may discount it as hysteria, listen with scientific curiosity, or worse — "poor thing" you, which is belittling.  A therapist I saw only once seemed numb.  I asked her why and she said, "I have to protect myself emotionally from the trauma of my clients."  No help there. A PTSD therapist will systematically approach and treat the trauma and ignore the coping mechanisms other therapists would tend to focus on. S/he will believe you, and s/he will not cry when you tell your story.  S/he will take careful notes and have you tell it again and again until she fully understands what happened and how you felt about it.  S/he will not baby you or let you chat.  You are there to work.  S/he will be committed to helping you.  I remember Susan saying, "If you were so upset, why didn’t you call me?  You should call me if it gets bad.  If you never once call me on a night or a weekend, then you’re not really working hard."  When you’re better, s/he’ll notice way before you do, and s/he will encourage you get off the couch and move on with your life. If I could wave a magic wand I’d make you forget about the people who didn’t help you and then I’d help you find somebody who can.  It’s so easy to focus your rage on the unhelpful rather than on the real bad guys." ~ P Fogg "Wow, Sounds helpful, sounds good! When I called my shrink, A dire emergency, In a state of shock, seeing demented stars, While taunting starlings sung to me, Disoriented Me ~ He refused to see me for week! … that’s The Truth." ~ Twitrering

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"… and the psychologists, For whom, I used to volunteer, Just ~ Laughed at me, said ~ ‘Don’t forget to vote For Kerry!’ The other, A TV star, A PTSD Specialist, Just  ~ Ignored me altogether, Deleted most of my emails. … and that’s The Truth." ~ Twittering

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"… and that’s The Truth. I thought, O ~ This must a game, some Odd Bedfellow’s Initiation Ritual ~ But O, Pleased tell me The Rules?! For, no, Not taught, nor I learned ~ At Gold Fish School!" ~ Twittering

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… or Terra Celeste?

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"Oh ~ Like Man Friday?" ~ P Fogg "… Huh? A car? Pick me up? What time?" ~ Twittering

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!Be Warned! Sign Says … ~ * ~ ~ * ~ A Sign,  A Boarded Shingle Hung Out TO Dry ~ * ~ ! * ! Hip ~ Mr. James Brown May Know! [But Don't Tell Dan!] Hop! * ~ ~ ~ * ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  ~ AKA … Minister Of The New, New Super Heavy Funk Hardest Working Man In Show Business Forefather Of Hip ~ Hop Soul Brother Number One Original Disco Man Real Black Moses Ambassador Of Soul Godfather Of Soul Black Caesar Funky President Mister Star Time Mister Dynamite ~ * ~ Yes ~ A Morning Wood Roadside Semi ~ Otic * Dogging Arts * Fogging Minds * It’s a Star * ~ * ~

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"I hear the bird sing Its staccato song outside my bedroom window, A dark morning with mind jumbled In a junkyard piled with anxiety And broken thoughts from a runaway Mind." ~ Thomas DeBaggio, From "Losing My Mind:

An Intimate Look at Life with Alzheimer’s" [p. 167] "Me, too! Mr. DeBaggio, come on down ~ !" ~ Twittering

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – !Be Warned! Sign Says … ~ * ~ ~ * ~ A Sign,  A Boarded Shingle Hung Out TO Dry ~ * ~ ! * ! Hip ~ Mr. James Brown May Know! [But Don't Tell Dan!] Hop! * ~ ~ ~ * ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~  ~ AKA … Minister Of The New, New Super Heavy Funk Hardest Working Man In Show Business Forefather Of Hip ~ Hop Soul Brother Number One Original Disco Man Real Black Moses Ambassador Of Soul Godfather Of Soul Black Caesar Funky President Mister Star Time Mister Dynamite ~ * ~ Yes ~ A Morning Wood Roadside Semi ~ Otic * Dogging Arts * Fogging Minds * It’s a Star * ~ * ~

When I was a child, whenever there was a tragedy we could do nothing about, we would go to our church and light a candle, which I admit may be as much about calming the candle-lighters as helping the prayed-for.  This is another candle for T1. http://kidshealth.org/PageManager.jsp?dn=familydoctor&article_set=278… PTSD can be treated successfully. But if it’s not treated it may continue for a long time. Some people learn that in the process of healing from trauma they discover strengths they didn’t know they had. Others find that treatment helps them develop new insights into life and how to cope with other problems. This is a good book: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/157224058X/104-6514823-5139153 http://www.afsp.org/about-us/chapters/afspny/nysupportgroups.html NEW YORK CITY (MANHATTAN) Group Name & Mailing Address: Survivors of a Loved One’s Suicide 350 W. 55th Street New York, NY 10019 Contact: Jeanette Mason (212) 246-3117 Meeting Place: Call for information Meeting Day(s)/Meeting Time: Call for information Facilitated by: Peer/Professional Charge: No Newsletter: No Counties Served: All Comments: Jeanette Mason also runs Trauma Survivors group. Call for information.

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… for what one needs, A living presence ~ Another’s understanding Essential, for support, to reintegrate, After ravaged disentigration, utter fragmentation, Rips one from Known shores, familiar ground.

I remember needing to tell somebody — anybody, and then telling and seeing tears and feeling I needed to console the other, or apathy and disbelief and feeling humiliation, or finding blame and rejection in those whose place it was to protect or comfort me.  When I finally sat in a roomful of women who had been in my shoes, and I began to hear their stories and their fears and their shame and frustration and misery, and I knew in my bones that they were blameless and shameless and innocent, I *knew* the same was true for *me.*  I knew I had come home and would be able to tell, and tell, and tell until all the pain and rage and tears were in a pile on the floor and no longer the lump in my throat, the rock in my gut, the tortured mask on my face.  We could only have done this for each other.

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"… but emptiness, stark solitude, Without witness, kills …" ~ Twittering "… as some memories A will to do." ~ Sandy Bear "O, so True." ~ Folly

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"… for, don’t you know? Me, I used to write, To volunteer my valuable time, For The NYU Medical School Child Study Center?" ~ Twittering

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"… money, too, Without which, kills ~ For bread, no poetry earns, Only enternity, yes, but no help onw for the hungry body, Just ambrosia for the soul." ~ Folly "Ambrosia? Folly ~ Hey, some shredded coconut?" ~ Twittering O, mon cher ~ Don’t mind if I do! Merci." ~ Folly

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"I remember needing to tell somebody — anybody, and then telling and seeing tears and feeling I needed to console the other, or apathy and disbelief and feeling humiliation, or finding blame and rejection in those whose place it was to protect or comfort me.  When I finally sat in a roomful of women who had been in my shoes, and I began to hear their stories and their fears and their shame and frustration and misery, and I knew in my bones that they were blameless and shameless and innocent, I *knew* the same was true for *me.*  I knew I had come home and would be able to tell, and tell, and tell until all the pain and rage and tears were in a pile on the floor and no longer the lump in my throat, the rock in my gut, the tortured mask on my face. We could only have done this for each other." ~ P Fogg "But O, I think, trained professionals, too, Should do for you. If not, They should refund your money ~ Or at least, Bring you no further harm." ~ Twittering

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… as they did To me.

Response:

"… for, don’t you know? Me, I used to write, To volunteer my valuable time, For The NYU Medical School Child Study Center? My time, my heart, my loyalty, They did not appreciate. So rude, so mean, They were to me." ~ Twittering

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"… a partial Story." ~ Folly

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "I remember needing to tell somebody — anybody, and then telling and seeing tears and feeling I needed to console the other, or apathy and disbelief and feeling humiliation, or finding blame and rejection in those whose place it was to protect or comfort me.  When I finally sat in a roomful of women who had been in my shoes, and I began to hear their stories and their fears and their shame and frustration and misery, and I knew in my bones that they were blameless and shameless and innocent, I *knew* the same was true for *me.*  I knew I had come home and would be able to tell, and tell, and tell until all the pain and rage and tears were in a pile on the floor and no longer the lump in my throat, the rock in my gut, the tortured mask on my face. We could only have done this for each other." ~ P Fogg "But O, I think, trained professionals, too, Should do for you. If not, They should refund your money ~ Or at least, Bring you no further harm." ~ Twittering

Yeah.  Back then, and maybe now too, you could only be in a support group if you were also in therapy.  Most therapists do not have the training they need to successfully treat PTSD.  Before Susan, I saw several relatively effective therapists who were no help at all for my PTSD. This again is the link to my former therapist, who has given me several good referrals for friends far away. E-mail her.  (She won’t remember me — it was a long time ago.) http://www.psych-shs.duke.edu/faculty/clinfacultyroth.html Or better yet:  I got her name from my local RCC.  They told me she was the best, and they were right.  They are in a unique position to know.

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"… for, cogency, clarity, coherency ~ One needs to mend, To re-glue, reassemble, one’s far-flung broken pieces, Storm-tossed sea-floating flotsam, Back together again! Perhaps, Elmer’s Glue, or Legal Aid you, too, offer? For, my tether, My rope, my cord ~ Ripped, cut, severed, And still, I drift, I float, Without a life saver, Savior, Or jacket ~ Just me and Folly, Together, far-flung, Alone …" ~ Twittering "… but poetry, We read, we write, to mend our broken way, Heal each day, or as Mr. Clark Coolidge says, in ‘Solution Passage’ ~ "One shoe tight and one show thin write through the place where the eyes go in the Lost not in a muddle where it is, just you here in middle chair, having run a book through                    your brightness In the avenue that is birds in flight, or fish                  in straight, the bulbs are abrim and grow                              in their wetness If it is not fit to read then witness …’ ~ Clark Coolidge, From ‘Thread and Coaxless Day: Three Poems,’ From ‘Solution Passage: Poems 1978-1981′

[p. 257] … so alas, Will you be our witness? For, yes, We are very wet, and know ~ Ms. Guppy needs fresh water!" ~ Folly "… and O, Folly, Our knapsack, yes, a year later, Almost empty Now." ~ Twittering "… for no loss Is original, or made simpler To grasp …" ~ Sandy Bear

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Thanks, good sources For help! But just ask me ~ Those places To void, who’ll only Harm you!

Response:

… for what one needs, A living presence ~ Another’s understanding Essential, for support, to reintegrate, After ravaged disentigration, utter fragmentation, Rips one from Known shores, familiar ground.

Response:

And the AFSP." ~ P Fogg "Thanks, good sources For help! But just ask me ~ Those places To avoid, who’ll only Hurt you, bring you further harm! … for what one needs, A living presence ~ Another’s understanding, Yes, Essential, for support, to reintegrate, After ravaged disintegration, Utter fragmentation, Rips one from known Shores, familiar ground. For, cogency, clarity, coherency ~ One needs to mend, To re-glue, reassemble, one’s far-flung broken pieces, Storm-tossed sea-floating flotsam, Back together again! Perhaps, Elmer’s Glue, or Legal Aid you, too, offer? For, my tether, My rope, my cord ~ Ripped, cut, severed, And still, I drift, I float, Without a life saver, Savior, Or jacket ~ Just me and Folly, Together, far-flung, Alone …" ~ Twittering

Response:

i think that once upon a time someone(s) wrote some stuff about how to find a therapist.  does anyone have a copy of this to post? tia, b.

Response:

i think that once upon a time someone(s) wrote some stuff about how to find a therapist.  does anyone have a copy of this to post? tia, b.

hi b. i saved a few things.  i’m not sure where i got them in some cases so i’ll appologize right up front.  Hopefully, something will help. linda/2creus One post someone said to try the local licensing board for your state. I found a list of possibles for myself when I lived in NEngland at http://www.state.ma.us/reg/ the website "The Wounded Healer" used to have decent lists but I think it changed now.  Maybe a search for that name will help? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx if what you were asking if for questions to ask possible candidates, I saved these below…(names saved to post if I knew who it was) Questions to ask a potential therapist     (1) Does the therapist have any specific training and experience in working with dissociative people?     (2) What academic degrees does the therapist have, and are they from accredited institutions?     (3) What credentials does the therapist possess: Appropriate professional licensure? Hospital staff membership? Academic appointments? Board certifications?       (4) What are standard fees and billing arrangements? (and if you use health insurance, is the therapist on your provider panel?)     (5) What is the therapist’s orientation or general approach to treating someone who is dissociative?     (6) Is the therapist taking new clients, and are regular appointments available at times that are workable for you? What’s it all gonna cost me?  Do they accept a sliding scale, payment plan or reduced fee? How long are regular sessions and how often. Are you trained in any particular techniques: psychodrama, hypnosis, EMDR etc.  if so tell me something about them and what do you achieve with them. Do you do EMDR?  If so, how often and how long are the sessions. Do you do group therapy, individual therapy, or both?  If group and you’re interested in that, ask about group size, gender mix, age mix, length/frequency of sessions, format, when’s the next startup date. Can you be reached during off-hours.  In what manner? How often are regular sessions broken up by vacations and other commitments. How easy is it to make an irregular appointment. Listen for biases, expectations.  I don’t say much about myself on the phone.  if I’m happy with what they’ve said about their ideas and practice, I say let’s set up a session and i’ll tell you more about me when we meet. I asked about their background and experience with PTSD, incest & other trauma (long term).  How long have they been working with these issues?   I asked how many trauma survivors (adults) they have helped to a resolution that both they and the client could label as successful.  I asked what "successful" would look like.   What is their views on things like DID (multiple personality) (stress that I am not but I know others who are) Check to see if they are open minded on the issue. I asked them to describe their conceptualization of treatment of PTSD and dissociative disorders.  How long do they think the therapy may run?  I asked whatever else flowed from the conversation, as well as some of the concrete proceedural details.   Give them a *very* brief synopsis of what my status and needs were.  of course, I don’t use insurance, so my options were completely open.     You don’t have to belong to ISSD in order to get a list of members in your area. Anyone can contact ISSD at 847-480-0899, leave a message as directed, and someone will call or write back. ISSD, like other professional associations in the mental health field, does not evaluate or vouch for the competence of its members; ISSD membership is **only** an indication of interest in dissociation and its treatment, and hopefully an indication of familiarity with ISSD’s treatment guidelines for DID.     Finding a competent therapist that you’re compatible with is probably an article-length topic. Referrals from other people you know and trust can help, but when inquiries come up dry, I do believe that most therapists are willing to have a brief (free) phone call with prospective new clients, which enables the caller to find out:     (1) Does the therapist have any specific training and experience in working with dissociative people?     (2) What academic degrees does the therapist have, and are they from accredited institutions?     (3) What credentials does the therapist possess: Appropriate professional licensure? Hospital staff membership? Academic appointments? Board certifications?     (4) What are standard fees and billing arrangements? (and if you use health insurance, is the therapist on your provider panel?)     (5) What is the therapist’s orientation or general approach to treating someone who is dissociative?     (6) Is the therapist taking new clients, and are regular appointments available at times that are workable for you?     Beyond these questions, most therapists usually prefer to save further discussion for a first appointment.     Peter — Clinical Psychologist Past President, International Society for the Study of Dissociation [I took my office address out of the signature file for this post to make it clear that I am NOT posting this message in order to dig up clients!] ISSD office: 60 Revere Drive, Suite 500 Northbrook, IL 60062 Phone:  Voice: 847-480-0899                  Fax:     847-480-9282 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD

Response:

thank you linda.  yes, i think the list of questions was what i was remembering.  i’m glad you have saved things like this.  i have high respect for the habit of saving pieces of history, however one defines history. thanks, b. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – i think that once upon a time someone(s) wrote some stuff about how to find a therapist.  does anyone have a copy of this to post? tia, b. hi b. i saved a few things.  i’m not sure where i got them in some cases so i’ll appologize right up front.  Hopefully, something will help. linda/2creus One post someone said to try the local licensing board for your state. I found a list of possibles for myself when I lived in NEngland at http://www.state.ma.us/reg/ the website "The Wounded Healer" used to have decent lists but I think it changed now.  Maybe a search for that name will help? xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx if what you were asking if for questions to ask possible candidates, I saved these below…(names saved to post if I knew who it was) Questions to ask a potential therapist    (1) Does the therapist have any specific training and experience in working with dissociative people?    (2) What academic degrees does the therapist have, and are they from accredited institutions?    (3) What credentials does the therapist possess: Appropriate professional licensure? Hospital staff membership? Academic appointments? Board certifications?      (4) What are standard fees and billing arrangements? (and if you use health insurance, is the therapist on your provider panel?)    (5) What is the therapist’s orientation or general approach to treating someone who is dissociative?    (6) Is the therapist taking new clients, and are regular appointments available at times that are workable for you? What’s it all gonna cost me?  Do they accept a sliding scale, payment plan or reduced fee? How long are regular sessions and how often. Are you trained in any particular techniques: psychodrama, hypnosis, EMDR etc. if so tell me something about them and what do you achieve with them. Do you do EMDR?  If so, how often and how long are the sessions. Do you do group therapy, individual therapy, or both?  If group and you’re interested in that, ask about group size, gender mix, age mix, length/frequency of sessions, format, when’s the next startup date. Can you be reached during off-hours.  In what manner? How often are regular sessions broken up by vacations and other commitments. How easy is it to make an irregular appointment. Listen for biases, expectations.  I don’t say much about myself on the phone.  if I’m happy with what they’ve said about their ideas and practice, I say let’s set up a session and i’ll tell you more about me when we meet. I asked about their background and experience with PTSD, incest & other trauma (long term).  How long have they been working with these issues?   I asked how many trauma survivors (adults) they have helped to a resolution that both they and the client could label as successful.  I asked what "successful" would look like.   What is their views on things like DID (multiple personality) (stress that I am not but I know others who are) Check to see if they are open minded on the issue. I asked them to describe their conceptualization of treatment of PTSD and dissociative disorders.  How long do they think the therapy may run?  I asked whatever else flowed from the conversation, as well as some of the concrete proceedural details.   Give them a *very* brief synopsis of what my status and needs were.  of course, I don’t use insurance, so my options were completely open.    You don’t have to belong to ISSD in order to get a list of members in your area. Anyone can contact ISSD at 847-480-0899, leave a message as directed, and someone will call or write back. ISSD, like other professional associations in the mental health field, does not evaluate or vouch for the competence of its members; ISSD membership is **only** an indication of interest in dissociation and its treatment, and hopefully an indication of familiarity with ISSD’s treatment guidelines for DID.    Finding a competent therapist that you’re compatible with is probably an article-length topic. Referrals from other people you know and trust can help, but when inquiries come up dry, I do believe that most therapists are willing to have a brief (free) phone call with prospective new clients, which enables the caller to find out:    (1) Does the therapist have any specific training and experience in working with dissociative people?    (2) What academic degrees does the therapist have, and are they from accredited institutions?    (3) What credentials does the therapist possess: Appropriate professional licensure? Hospital staff membership? Academic appointments? Board certifications?    (4) What are standard fees and billing arrangements? (and if you use health insurance, is the therapist on your provider panel?)    (5) What is the therapist’s orientation or general approach to treating someone who is dissociative?    (6) Is the therapist taking new clients, and are regular appointments available at times that are workable for you?    Beyond these questions, most therapists usually prefer to save further discussion for a first appointment.    Peter — Clinical Psychologist Past President, International Society for the Study of Dissociation [I took my office address out of the signature file for this post to make it clear that I am NOT posting this message in order to dig up clients!] ISSD office: 60 Revere Drive, Suite 500 Northbrook, IL 60062 Phone:  Voice: 847-480-0899                 Fax:     847-480-9282 Opinions posted here are my own and not necessarily those of ISSD

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thank you linda.  yes, i think the list of questions was what i was remembering.  i’m glad you have saved things like this.  i have high respect for the habit of saving pieces of history, however one defines history. thanks, b.

no prob. i’m a packrat from waaay back.  :) linda

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I know nothing about the place, being here in Canad* and all, but the name of it gives me the creeps! <G Welcome!  jane – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance.

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Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance.

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Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance.

Hi and welcome to the group (at least the nonlurking part:) I know nothing about this place. I’ve never heard of it. I guess if I were to check it out I’d contact them directly and ask them for info. I’d ask my t’pist why it was recommended. I’d check for any web info. I’d call the better business bureau in FL and any licensing places it is associated with. I personally would also check it out in person because I have always had a good sense (or intuition?) about places I’ve gone inpt. Keep us informed and of course post often and early! Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance. Hi and welcome to the group (at least the nonlurking part:) I know nothing about this place. I’ve never heard of it. I guess if I were to check it out I’d contact them directly and ask them for info. I’d ask my t’pist why it was recommended. I’d check for any web info. I’d call the better business bureau in FL and any licensing places it is associated with. I personally would also check it out in person because I have always had a good sense (or intuition?) about places I’ve gone inpt. Keep us informed and of course post often and early! Rainbow Colors (Jill)

Thanks, Jill. Unfortunately, I can’t check them out personally. I live thousands of miles away, which is why I was hoping someone here might have had contact with them. I’ve already asked WIIT to send me info and have checked their web site, but you know how that goes. I’m only going to hear about how wonderful they are. They may well be just that, but I dread even thinking of going someplace and reliving my trauma (not to mention disclosing my DID) without knowing what I’m going into. My therapist says she has had talks with the staff there (specific to checking out resources for me) and she thinks they are very professional and that I could gain a lot of strength from what they have to offer. I’ve never been "institutionalized" before and the idea of even volunteering for an in-patient program is very scary to me. I suppose I will just call them myself this coming week. I’ll keep everyone posted.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance. Hi and welcome to the group (at least the nonlurking part:) I know nothing about this place. I’ve never heard of it. I guess if I were to check it out I’d contact them directly and ask them for info. I’d ask my t’pist why it was recommended. I’d check for any web info. I’d call the better business bureau in FL and any licensing places it is associated with. I personally would also check it out in person because I have always had a good sense (or intuition?) about places I’ve gone inpt. Keep us informed and of course post often and early! Rainbow Colors (Jill) Thanks, Jill. Unfortunately, I can’t check them out personally. I live thousands of miles away, which is why I was hoping someone here might have had contact with them. I’ve already asked WIIT to send me info and have checked their web site, but you know how that goes. I’m only going to hear about how wonderful they are. They may well be just that, but I dread even thinking of going someplace and reliving my trauma (not to mention disclosing my DID) without knowing what I’m going into. My ther*pist says she has had talks with the staff there (specific to

checking out resources for me) and she thinks they are very professional and that I could gain a lot of strength from what they have to offer. I’ve never been "institutionalized" before and the idea of even volunteering for an in-patient program is very scary to me. I suppose I will just call them myself this coming week. I’ll keep everyone posted.

welcome to the group.  :) i’ve never been in-pt before either, and i also know nothing of the place.  occasionally my shrink or i will mention that certain things i have real problems with in thpy would be *so much easier* inpt, but *shrugs* i’m scared of being l*cked(o) up. ’sides, i’d imagine getting food i’m not allergic to in *any* sort of institution would be nearly impossible.  or i’d be eating, like, plain white rice, plain green beans, and a plain baked chicken breast at every meal.  "oh, we’re worried you’re not getting enough nutrition.  here, drink this nutritional shake".  umm….no.  :)  loaded with soy. not doing it.  "jello?"  no.  "turkey sandwich?"  no.  "how bout without the bread?"  no.  still allergic to it. sorry.  tangent. oh, i’d prolly still get sick from the chicken breast, cuz they’d prolly spray the baking pan with soybean oil cooking spray so it won’t stick.  *rolls eyes* sorry…what was i saying?  i’m sorry you’re having problems right now.  i hope you get the treatment that’s right for you. and keep posting, k?  you’re one of us now.  :) jt – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Hey jt, just as a fyi the general psych ward I was in was in a regular hosp and I found it quite easy to get what I needed for food. Everything but caffeine that is. The stupid hosp was seventh day advent which means no caffeine of any sort in the entire hosp and being on a locked ward I couldn’t go out and get some as needed. My so brought it in every day but it wasn’t the same. I dunno. Waking up at 7am inpt to a cup of institutional decaf really doesn’t seem to be all that healthy *wry grin* But I eat pretty organic and high fiber/low fat ovo lacto veggie and they did a great job of making sure I got what I needed health wise. It wasn’t always the most inspired but it wasn’t all that bad. You just sit down with the head dietitian on day one or two and make out a list. The time I was in a ‘real’ psych hosp I wasn’t into any different sort of eating than anyone else so I don’t know how that would have worked. But the ‘real’ place had caffeine 24 hrs a day! Of course that led me to get caffeine toxicity… not really recommended… Rainbow Colors (Jill) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance. Hi and welcome to the group (at least the nonlurking part:) I know nothing about this place. I’ve never heard of it. I guess if I were to check it out I’d contact them directly and ask them for info. I’d ask my t’pist why it was recommended. I’d check for any web info. I’d call the better business bureau in FL and any licensing places it is associated with. I personally would also check it out in person because I have always had a good sense (or intuition?) about places I’ve gone inpt. Keep us informed and of course post often and early! Rainbow Colors (Jill) Thanks, Jill. Unfortunately, I can’t check them out personally. I live thousands of miles away, which is why I was hoping someone here might have had contact with them. I’ve already asked WIIT to send me info and have checked their web site, but you know how that goes. I’m only going to hear about how wonderful they are. They may well be just that, but I dread even thinking of going someplace and reliving my trauma (not to mention disclosing my DID) without knowing what I’m going into. My ther*pist says she has had talks with the staff there (specific to checking out resources for me) and she thinks they are very professional and that I could gain a lot of strength from what they have to offer. I’ve never been "institutionalized" before and the idea of even volunteering for an in-patient program is very scary to me. I suppose I will just call them myself this coming week. I’ll keep everyone posted. welcome to the group.  :) i’ve never been in-pt before either, and i also know nothing of the place.  occasionally my shrink or i will mention that certain things i have real problems with in thpy would be *so much easier* inpt, but *shrugs* i’m scared of being l*cked(o) up. ’sides, i’d imagine getting food i’m not allergic to in *any* sort of institution would be nearly impossible.  or i’d be eating, like, plain white rice, plain green beans, and a plain baked chicken breast at every meal.  "oh, we’re worried you’re not getting enough nutrition.  here, drink this nutritional shake".  umm….no.  :)  loaded with soy. not doing it.  "jello?"  no.  "turkey sandwich?"  no.  "how bout without the bread?"  no.  still allergic to it. sorry.  tangent. oh, i’d prolly still get sick from the chicken breast, cuz they’d prolly spray the baking pan with soybean oil cooking spray so it won’t stick.  *rolls eyes* sorry…what was i saying?  i’m sorry you’re having problems right now.  i hope you get the treatment that’s right for you. and keep posting, k?  you’re one of us now.  :) jt

–      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi everybody. I’m a long time lurker, but I’ve never posted here before. My therapist has recommended I check out the Women’s Institute for Incorporation Therapy program in Hollywood, Florida. It is an in-patient hospital specifically for women with DID and PTSD. Does anyone here have any experience with this organization? Thanks in advance. Hi and welcome to the group (at least the nonlurking part:) I know nothing about this place. I’ve never heard of it. I guess if I were to check it out I’d contact them directly and ask them for info. I’d ask my t’pist why it was recommended. I’d check for any web info. I’d call the better business bureau in FL and any licensing places it is associated with. I personally would also check it out in person because I have always had a good sense (or intuition?) about places I’ve gone inpt. Keep us informed and of course post often and early! Rainbow Colors (Jill) Thanks, Jill. Unfortunately, I can’t check them out personally. I live thousands of miles away, which is why I was hoping someone here might have had contact with them. I’ve already asked WIIT to send me info and have checked their web site, but you know how that goes. I’m only going to hear about how wonderful they are. They may well be just that, but I dread even

Well, sure but they are going to tell you how wonderful they are from their pov. It might clearly not be _your_ pov. For example, when I was checking out inpt places my biggest questions were around things like ‘what are your policies about meds? time out or seclusion rooms? what is your basic philosophy (ie. are you a freudian or a behaviorist or…)? Now a place that said ‘we use all of the state of the art meds and encourage patients to find a med that works best for them while monitoring their reactions and blah blah blah’ sounds great but it is NOT for me. I look for a place that says ‘well, meds are used here as needed but no one is encouraged to take them if they don’t think they would be beneficial’. For me time out/seclusion rooms were mandatory based on what I was planning on doing and how. But it had to be on _my_ terms and without restraints. As for the philosophy… _I’m_ a behaviorist *grin* I didn’t need _that_ sort of help. I can do that to myself. I needed a more psycho dynamically oriented place but not totally freudian. In all cases I wanted them to answer me openly, honestly and directly so I could then run it by my t’pist and together we could figure out how that applied to my plans. thinking of going someplace and reliving my trauma (not to mention disclosing my DID) without knowing what I’m going into. My therapist says

Then probly the first thing you need to do is figure out with your t’pist what you want to get out of the stay and if that is something this place can help you with. For example, in one stay I wanted to work on anger and out of control switching. the past details were pretty irrelevant per say. I had to know that the place could help me with containment, anger management _and_ letting the anger out in productive ways. And on top of it all help all of us inside get a better handle on internal communication. Those were the specific goals I presented to the intake person and that is what was put in writing for me as a treatment plan. she has had talks with the staff there (specific to checking out resources for me) and she thinks they are very professional and that I could gain a lot of strength from what they have to offer.

Again, find out specifically what they have to offer and how that applies to you personally, not just patients in general. I found one of the best stays I ever had was in a general psych ward where most everyone was either clinically depressed and getting their meds sorted out or coming off of some substance. No specific trauma training or anything related to dissociation. Of course the ward t’pist and pdoc I worked with knew about this stuff and several of the techs were fantastic, but that wasn’t due to specific training on their part or even much experience in those areas. I’ve never been "institutionalized" before and the idea of even volunteering for an in-patient program is very scary to me. I suppose I will just call them myself this coming week. I’ll keep everyone posted.

Please do! Rainbow Colors (Jill) —      The colors blend, the edges soften. Swirling and mixing                    we are becoming white light.

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Hi I hope this helps.  I was you about three months ago.  I found wiit and did not know what to do.  But I was in such need of help, I took a chance and hopped on a plane (I live in Pa).  My family and friends were all scared, was it going to be what they said it was???  Well let me tell you, it was BETTER!!!!  It was the best thing I ever did!! And if you have DID THIS IS THE BEST PLACE FOR YOU IN THE USA!!!  I am on a closed wiit fourm with wiit alumni only and eveyone there agress it gave them there life back. Wiit is a very intense program. It is unusual gift. If you have the oppertunity to go..go!!!!

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Hi Katz, Yep! I just came back from the Caribou and it was so peaceful and quiet up there. Almost no people around the lake where I was staying. I just did not want to come back, because like you I do not understand the world most of the time. I feel like an alien here most of the time. I simply don’t seem to be able to march to the same drummer that the rest of the world does. I always wonder if it is just me who does not fit into this world. Most days I would rather be eaten by the beasts in the wild than be nibbled and picked to death by some of the people I have to deal with. However, I keep trying to change my attitude and see the world in a better light. So far I have not had much success.  A cabin (or even a tent … possibly a cave ) is looking pretty good!!!!! Heather "Katz Heitmann" <katz…@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:WFK7d.1924$Vm1.181@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Catz wrote: >> Thanks Peter, I will check it out. Anything that soothes the nerves would >> be >> good! You sound like you enjoy the outdoors. I think that people with >> PTSD >> seek nature to recharge and find some calm. I know that I do. >> Heather > I do too I find peace in nature sometimes but I know somethings want me > for lunch but at least they are honest about it.  They do not hide behind > the system and if I kill them to survive then their relatives do not press > charges like people tend to do.  I do not understand the world I find > myself in and I do not like most of the people involved.

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"Katz Heitmann" <wrote in message – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> bckwrds wrote: > > "Katz Heitmann"  wrote in message > >>bckwrds wrote: > >>>Katz, I’ve been gone a week on a so-called vacation…and I’m still > >>>tired and I work this morning….but I must say a few words.  They > >>>won’t give you comfort, they won’t make your life any better. But > >>>I do hear you.  I’ve been fucked by to many way to many times. > >>>Your anger is righteous!  I’ve been going thru anger madness for > >>>a long time now and I’m still not there!!!  It’s like it keeps building > >>>up….I let the steam out….only to have more and more anger > >>>surface. > don’t worry about me I’m tough enough to take it you sound as though you > need a little help.  I’d say schedule gym time and get a punching bag in > your house so you can hit it when you get mad.  Don’t feel guilty about > it as long as you do not harm another human being or life form > unnessecarily then anger is no problem.  If you punch a thing that is > designed for that purpose rather than another person then that is right. >   Because the punching bag is no longer alive then you harm nothing and > make yourself feel much better.  You have way too much adrenaline and > the way to get rid of it is exercise.   You haven’t hurt another person > with your anger and there is no sin.  If you need to hit something then > hit a thing that is already dead.  Your system sounds as if it is full > of adrenaline.  Exercise is best for getting rid of that.

I use to wog a lot….walk/jog.  Left knee started giving out on me and so now I’ve joined CURVES.  I like it a lot.  I’ve taken a gunny sack full of bottles and literally ripped er to shreds.  One may call it adrenaline but it’s mostly about pented up anger and frustration for me. Years and years of it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>Thank you I think we should compare notes you tell me what it was like > >>for you and I’ll tell you what it was like for me that way we get > >>through the pain together.  Maybe I came here to find you though I > >>wasn’t looking for you and maybe you were supposed to find me. > >     I read your words and just went numb.  Life has never been easy > > for me and for someone I don’t even know suggest that we go thru some > > of this together just about blows my mind.  I gave up on therapists…. > > moved and also could not longer afford the one good one I found. > > What a gift you just gave me.  Together.  You wouldn’t believe all > > the pain I’ve had in my life and mostly living it all alone. > You aren’t alone anymore the distance is meaningless.  Someone said that > there are no more heroes in this world but that’s proof they never met > Katz Heitmann.  It’s ok you aren’t half way gone you just gotta hang on > tighter to who you wanna be and make the best of what you got.  In your > pain wisedom and compassion grow.  In your suffering you find what you > been looking for all you have to do is hang on til tommorrow hang on > until the dawn comes.  You rescued me and I rescued you so we are just > destined to be friends, forget it. > I’m just lonely for someone who understands the shit I been through.  A > little afraid that I do not have the strength for the challenges ahead > but I’ve been through worse.  So I just have to get tougher and fight my > way through.

I, too, have many challenges awaiting.  It’s why I must get thru this mixed up confusing time I find myself in during certain situations of my current life.  I am not one to sit by and do nothing….even for myself.  But there are some things, many things, that have affected my life and no one stopped long enough to think about that.  These things just didn’t affect my life but others whom I love dearly.  I am a survivor and a strong one. Some people will not be happy about that fact.  My day is coming. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > I’ll be > >>out for 4 days so if you send an email and donot get a response right > >>away that’s what happened. What do either of us have to lose.  You can > >>tell me anything I’m not easily scared or made sick by abuse.  I read a > >>few gory autopsy reports in my time.  So nothing you have to say will > >>ever shock me.  I seen some pretty awful shit. > >>>Bravo for you for sticking up for those who’ve been hurt.  I’ve > >>>done the same myself.  Let the f’rs strike back at me…..but stay > >>>away from my love ones. > >>I’m that way too.  But I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve had enough of > >>it all. > I’m about to rip some frackers some new arseholes because I didn’t sign > up for this bullshit and I’m not about to tolerate it off anyone.

Ditto.  Some people literally ripped a new arsehole for me….and now it’s gonna be time for some justice. > > yeah, I’ve had enough, too.  Unfortuantely, the stuff keeps coming up. > > At least I’m no longer letting it build and build and build so that I end > > up as a freaking volcano.  But I sure can blow my top like the best > > of em. > I have that problem too.  Try boogie boarding some time.  The waves > throw you around until you learn to stand feet side by side a couple > feet apart turned side ways into the waves and switch em until you move > out past the breakers.  If you are ok within yourself and can live with > yourself then you can deal with anything that life throws at you.

I’m almost thru the process of DID.  Not easy work but much healing has been accomplished.  There’s been days, weeks, months, and yes years of living with "myselves" but I’m almost at the end of that long long road. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>>There is so much that I can not control in this world and so I > >>>know I must turn these things over to the ones who can truly > >>>help me…..God and my true Father. > >>Yeah abulo(meaning god helped me out of a few jams) > > God helped me out of a few jams, too.  It’s truly unbelieveable… > > and that’s part of me problem….but I’m letting that be others > > problems these days…..I know my truth. > I don’t know what I’d do without abulo. > >>>And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those > >>>two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many > >>>times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it > >>>with so many fn things in this fn world. > >>>Donna > >>Thank god I know I’m not alone.  That helps alot. > > thank you for letting me know that I, too, am not alone. > > Donna > I can’t save you I am having severe problems figuring out how to survive > but at least I can be there for you like my friends were there when I > needed them.  Most of life is hanging on when everything tells you that > it is futile.  More than anything I do not want to have suffered for > nothing.  If the wisedom borne of my agony helps another human being > survive then my life is not meaningless.

I don’t believe that anyone suffers for nothing….that there is a reason for everything.  My life has turned out different then I had ever thought it would but the end does and will justify the means.  No one should suffer the shit I’ve had to live thru….not even me.  But I did and I did for a reason.  And I know that reason.  There is a season for every purpose under heaven. bckwrds – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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Catz wrote: > Thanks Peter, I will check it out. Anything that soothes the nerves would be > good! You sound like you enjoy the outdoors. I think that people with PTSD > seek nature to recharge and find some calm. I know that I do. > Heather

I do too I find peace in nature sometimes but I know somethings want me for lunch but at least they are honest about it.  They do not hide behind the system and if I kill them to survive then their relatives do not press charges like people tend to do.  I do not understand the world I find myself in and I do not like most of the people involved.

Response:

Thanks Peter, I will check it out. Anything that soothes the nerves would be good! You sound like you enjoy the outdoors. I think that people with PTSD seek nature to recharge and find some calm. I know that I do. Heather "Peter" <skyr…@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:1096003330.093624.317710@h37g2000oda.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Heather wrote: > > Hello, > > I have been lurking for awhile now. > A lurker from Vancouver! > > I am also grateful for some of your candid posts here – they help > alot, > > especially on those days when the symptoms seem to get control. > Which leads me to mention a site I’ve just discovered. It’s full of > tranquility and occasional excitement against the backdrop of Vancouver > Island. > http://www.orca-live.net/ > It’s a webcam (a few of webcams, actually) run by an orca research > group on Hanson Island on Johnstone Strait. They have a series of > underwater microphones and they keep track of the whales’ comings and > goings. The webcam view is normally of kelp forest, very relaxing with > fish and the occasional seal and the kelp swaying in the current, but > when the orcas (or any other whales) are near they switch to a surface > view and it is thrilling to see the magnificent creatures just > offshore. > Be warned though, it can fill up awesome amounts of time! > Peter

Response:

bckwrds wrote: > "Katz Heitmann"  wrote in message >>bckwrds wrote: >>>Katz, I’ve been gone a week on a so-called vacation…and I’m still >>>tired and I work this morning….but I must say a few words.  They >>>won’t give you comfort, they won’t make your life any better. But >>>I do hear you.  I’ve been fucked by to many way to many times. >>>Your anger is righteous!  I’ve been going thru anger madness for >>>a long time now and I’m still not there!!!  It’s like it keeps building >>>up….I let the steam out….only to have more and more anger >>>surface.

don’t worry about me I’m tough enough to take it you sound as though you need a little help.  I’d say schedule gym time and get a punching bag in your house so you can hit it when you get mad.  Don’t feel guilty about it as long as you do not harm another human being or life form unnessecarily then anger is no problem.  If you punch a thing that is designed for that purpose rather than another person then that is right.   Because the punching bag is no longer alive then you harm nothing and make yourself feel much better.  You have way too much adrenaline and the way to get rid of it is exercise.   You haven’t hurt another person with your anger and there is no sin.  If you need to hit something then hit a thing that is already dead.  Your system sounds as if it is full of adrenaline.  Exercise is best for getting rid of that. >>Thank you I think we should compare notes you tell me what it was like >>for you and I’ll tell you what it was like for me that way we get >>through the pain together.  Maybe I came here to find you though I >>wasn’t looking for you and maybe you were supposed to find me. >     I read your words and just went numb.  Life has never been easy > for me and for someone I don’t even know suggest that we go thru some > of this together just about blows my mind.  I gave up on therapists…. > moved and also could not longer afford the one good one I found. > What a gift you just gave me.  Together.  You wouldn’t believe all > the pain I’ve had in my life and mostly living it all alone.

You aren’t alone anymore the distance is meaningless.  Someone said that there are no more heroes in this world but that’s proof they never met Katz Heitmann.  It’s ok you aren’t half way gone you just gotta hang on tighter to who you wanna be and make the best of what you got.  In your pain wisedom and compassion grow.  In your suffering you find what you been looking for all you have to do is hang on til tommorrow hang on until the dawn comes.  You rescued me and I rescued you so we are just destined to be friends, forget it. I’m just lonely for someone who understands the shit I been through.  A little afraid that I do not have the strength for the challenges ahead but I’ve been through worse.  So I just have to get tougher and fight my way through. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’ll be >>out for 4 days so if you send an email and donot get a response right >>away that’s what happened. What do either of us have to lose.  You can >>tell me anything I’m not easily scared or made sick by abuse.  I read a >>few gory autopsy reports in my time.  So nothing you have to say will >>ever shock me.  I seen some pretty awful shit. >>>Bravo for you for sticking up for those who’ve been hurt.  I’ve >>>done the same myself.  Let the f’rs strike back at me…..but stay >>>away from my love ones. >>I’m that way too.  But I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve had enough of >>it all.

I’m about to rip some frackers some new arseholes because I didn’t sign up for this bullshit and I’m not about to tolerate it off anyone. > yeah, I’ve had enough, too.  Unfortuantely, the stuff keeps coming up. > At least I’m no longer letting it build and build and build so that I end > up as a freaking volcano.  But I sure can blow my top like the best > of em.

I have that problem too.  Try boogie boarding some time.  The waves throw you around until you learn to stand feet side by side a couple feet apart turned side ways into the waves and switch em until you move out past the breakers.  If you are ok within yourself and can live with yourself then you can deal with anything that life throws at you. >>>There is so much that I can not control in this world and so I >>>know I must turn these things over to the ones who can truly >>>help me…..God and my true Father. >>Yeah abulo(meaning god helped me out of a few jams) > God helped me out of a few jams, too.  It’s truly unbelieveable… > and that’s part of me problem….but I’m letting that be others > problems these days…..I know my truth.

I don’t know what I’d do without abulo. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those >>>two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many >>>times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it >>>with so many fn things in this fn world. >>>Donna >>Thank god I know I’m not alone.  That helps alot. > thank you for letting me know that I, too, am not alone. > Donna

I can’t save you I am having severe problems figuring out how to survive but at least I can be there for you like my friends were there when I needed them.  Most of life is hanging on when everything tells you that it is futile.  More than anything I do not want to have suffered for nothing.  If the wisedom borne of my agony helps another human being survive then my life is not meaningless.

Response:

"Katz Heitmann"  wrote in message > bckwrds wrote: > > Katz, I’ve been gone a week on a so-called vacation…and I’m still > > tired and I work this morning….but I must say a few words.  They > > won’t give you comfort, they won’t make your life any better. But > > I do hear you.  I’ve been fucked by to many way to many times. > > Your anger is righteous!  I’ve been going thru anger madness for > > a long time now and I’m still not there!!!  It’s like it keeps building > > up….I let the steam out….only to have more and more anger > > surface. > Thank you I think we should compare notes you tell me what it was like > for you and I’ll tell you what it was like for me that way we get > through the pain together.  Maybe I came here to find you though I > wasn’t looking for you and maybe you were supposed to find me.

    I read your words and just went numb.  Life has never been easy for me and for someone I don’t even know suggest that we go thru some of this together just about blows my mind.  I gave up on therapists…. moved and also could not longer afford the one good one I found. What a gift you just gave me.  Together.  You wouldn’t believe all the pain I’ve had in my life and mostly living it all alone. I’ll be > out for 4 days so if you send an email and donot get a response right > away that’s what happened. What do either of us have to lose.  You can > tell me anything I’m not easily scared or made sick by abuse.  I read a > few gory autopsy reports in my time.  So nothing you have to say will > ever shock me.  I seen some pretty awful shit. > > Bravo for you for sticking up for those who’ve been hurt.  I’ve > > done the same myself.  Let the f’rs strike back at me…..but stay > > away from my love ones. > I’m that way too.  But I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve had enough of > it all.

yeah, I’ve had enough, too.  Unfortuantely, the stuff keeps coming up. At least I’m no longer letting it build and build and build so that I end up as a freaking volcano.  But I sure can blow my top like the best of em. > > There is so much that I can not control in this world and so I > > know I must turn these things over to the ones who can truly > > help me…..God and my true Father. > Yeah abulo(meaning god helped me out of a few jams)

God helped me out of a few jams, too.  It’s truly unbelieveable… and that’s part of me problem….but I’m letting that be others problems these days…..I know my truth. > > And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those > > two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many > > times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it > > with so many fn things in this fn world. > > Donna > Thank god I know I’m not alone.  That helps alot.

thank you for letting me know that I, too, am not alone. Donna

Response:

tinydancer wrote: > Nothing raises the hackles on my > back like somebody trying to tell me what to do, or picking on

somebody. Do tell? This would explain why you support Lucas, who spends his life on UseNet doing those very things. We can do without such people in here, thank’ee! Peter

Response:

Heather wrote: > Hello, > I have been lurking for awhile now.

A lurker from Vancouver! > I am also grateful for some of your candid posts here – they help alot, > especially on those days when the symptoms seem to get control.

Which leads me to mention a site I’ve just discovered. It’s full of tranquility and occasional excitement against the backdrop of Vancouver Island. http://www.orca-live.net/ It’s a webcam (a few of webcams, actually) run by an orca research group on Hanson Island on Johnstone Strait. They have a series of underwater microphones and they keep track of the whales’ comings and goings. The webcam view is normally of kelp forest, very relaxing with fish and the occasional seal and the kelp swaying in the current, but when the orcas (or any other whales) are near they switch to a surface view and it is thrilling to see the magnificent creatures just offshore. Be warned though, it can fill up awesome amounts of time! Peter

Response:

bckwrds wrote: > Katz, I’ve been gone a week on a so-called vacation…and I’m still > tired and I work this morning….but I must say a few words.  They > won’t give you comfort, they won’t make your life any better. But > I do hear you.  I’ve been fucked by to many way to many times. > Your anger is righteous!  I’ve been going thru anger madness for > a long time now and I’m still not there!!!  It’s like it keeps building > up….I let the steam out….only to have more and more anger > surface.

Thank you I think we should compare notes you tell me what it was like for you and I’ll tell you what it was like for me that way we get through the pain together.  Maybe I came here to find you though I wasn’t looking for you and maybe you were supposed to find me.  I’ll be out for 4 days so if you send an email and donot get a response right away that’s what happened. What do either of us have to lose.  You can tell me anything I’m not easily scared or made sick by abuse.  I read a few gory autopsy reports in my time.  So nothing you have to say will ever shock me.  I seen some pretty awful shit. > Bravo for you for sticking up for those who’ve been hurt.  I’ve > done the same myself.  Let the f’rs strike back at me…..but stay > away from my love ones.

I’m that way too.  But I’ve gotten to the point where I’ve had enough of it all. > There is so much that I can not control in this world and so I > know I must turn these things over to the ones who can truly > help me…..God and my true Father.

Yeah abulo(meaning god helped me out of a few jams) > And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those > two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many > times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it > with so many fn things in this fn world. > Donna

Thank god I know I’m not alone.  That helps alot.

Response:

Donna, two little words, I Agree. John De

Response:

"bckwrds" <bckw…@theriver.com> wrote in message

news:cimh45$5bc$0$216.39.135.94@theriver.com… snipped> > And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those > two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many > times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it > with so many fn things in this fn world.

Damn, which two little words were those?  Shit, I must’a missed ‘em.  ;-) td

Response:

"Katz Heitmann" <katz…@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:%Gx3d.7407$mb6.4888@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… > Can anyone tell me what all the varieties of post are like.  Well  I > know my post traumatic causes me to have a little trouble with > authority.  It’s not that I want to give authority a hard time it just > happens ok.

I think that’s a pretty common one Katz.  Nothing raises the hackles on my back like somebody trying to tell me what to do, or picking on somebody.  I don’t ‘do’ authority well either.  I’m afraid, like you, it tends to spill over at times, like I can’t call anybody ’sir or ‘m’am’.  I think once you’ve been abused in some way by some sort of ‘authority’, you are NEVER going to let that happen again. Hang in there Katz, td

Response:

"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:Yj74d.186620$%n4.59998@bignews6.bellsouth.net… > "bckwrds" <bckw…@theriver.com> wrote in message > news:cimh45$5bc$0$216.39.135.94@theriver.com… > snipped> > > And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those > > two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many > > times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it > > with so many fn things in this fn world. > Damn, which two little words were those?  Shit, I must’a missed ‘em.  ;-) > td

thank you, td.  I’ve been thru so much crap in my life and when ever I bring up anything about how God and Jesus helped me literally LIVE I get yelled at.   Some anger is righteous! bckwrds…..who’s still feeling some of that righteousness this morning.  ;]

Response:

"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:Eq74d.186621$%n4.55176@bignews6.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Katz Heitmann" <katz…@mindspring.com> wrote in message > news:%Gx3d.7407$mb6.4888@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > Can anyone tell me what all the varieties of post are like.  Well  I > > know my post traumatic causes me to have a little trouble with > > authority.  It’s not that I want to give authority a hard time it just > > happens ok. > I think that’s a pretty common one Katz.  Nothing raises the hackles on my > back like somebody trying to tell me what to do, or picking on somebody. I > don’t ‘do’ authority well either.  I’m afraid, like you, it tends to spill > over at times, like I can’t call anybody ’sir or ‘m’am’.  I think once > you’ve been abused in some way by some sort of ‘authority’, you are NEVER > going to let that happen again. > Hang in there Katz, > td

having been there myself, what helped me get over this part of my anger was the fact that there is one huge difference between professionals (cops, military, lawyers, teachers) then your ordinary bad asses.  I respect good cops, good military people, good lawyers, good teacher…..yes, some bad ones in each of those categories hurt me and hurt me bad. I respect authority and don’t mind saying yes sir…..but they gotta be good em’s. bckwrds

Response:

Hello, I have been lurking for awhile now. I have had complex PTSD for a long time now and I still struggle with symptoms. I was so relieved to read Katz post because I too have problems with "authority figures" and I too find that it is not something I think about or want to do it just "happens", exactly like she says.  I had really just considered myself a "b**ch" and felt bad after it happens. It is always much worse when I am under more stress than usual (I am always under stress : ) ! I never really thought about it being a response to what happened to me. I am grateful for Katz’ letter it put a whole new perspective on this issue and helped me feel a little better about myself. I am also grateful for some of your candid posts here – they help alot, especially on those days when the symptoms seem to get control. Thanks Catz ( yes, I too use the nick catz except with a C  ) "Katz Heitmann" <katz…@mindspring.com> wrote in message

news:%Gx3d.7407$mb6.4888@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone tell me what all the varieties of post are like.  Well  I > know my post traumatic causes me to have a little trouble with > authority.  It’s not that I want to give authority a hard time it just > happens ok.  Well I don’t suppose it should be an excuse but I was > pretty badly abused by authority and even worse by my peers.  It may > have been my own fault I don’t know but I’m a little hostile and > distrustful of authority because life experience made me that way.  A > little wary of anyone offering to take care of everything or the > assurances that everything will be ok.  Or telling me to think > positively it’s kind of hard when you’re brother is dead cause some > asshole drank too damn much and decided that he could drive like that. >   Then he got off on a technicality because the police fucked up.  It’s > kind of hard to think positively when you want to kill your peers or at > least larydectomize them so they will stop pissing you off all the time >   by getting in your face and calling you retarded all the time. > Why should people expect me to be any different after I dealt with 22 > years of hell?  I mean how do you deal with the fact that your choir > master as a kid was a pedophile.  How are you supposed to forgive an > adult who taped your entire cabin full of girls mouths shut.  How are > you supposed to deal with the fact that your preschool teacher > alternated between berating and humiliating you at every opportunity and > neglecting you.  How are you supposed respect authority when you can’t > depend on them to do the right thing.  How are you supposed to trust > authority when you call them in and the situation gets even worse > because of them.  How am I supposed to forgive the system for not > getting justice for me or caring enough to do the job right?  How am I > supposed to trust the education system when they refuse to do what > federal law requires and I can’t make them without suing them.  They > hold the cards if I could just sue the entire state in federal court the > judge would basically order them to comply with federal law.  The > publicity would be a nightmare for their reelection campaign even if I > lost.  I think it would be hillarious to do that to them.  How am I > supposed to deal with the fact that while most people were dreaming > about what they wanted to be I was trying to figure out how to keep the > abusive fuckers off my peers and myself.  Also taking out the school > yard bully.  Also trying to figure out how to keep ass in one piece > while authority was no help at all. > In some cases I figured out how to completely trash an abusive teacher > without getting my arse busted in the process.  I completely destroyed a > college professor because he really pissed me off I damn nearly cleaned > his damn clock.  I’ve never wanted to punch a person more than I wanted > to clock that professor and the only reason I didn’t slug him was that > I’d taken ritalin and it helped me resist the urge to punch Headington > right in his arrogant face.  The reason I wanted to slug the fucker was >   that he humiliated a fellow student and copped an attitude with me > when I suggested he apologize to that student.  I might scream at a > student grab him by his shirt shove him out of the way if I was in a > hurry or lose my damn temper and go off like a nuke all the time but I > would never humiliate a student who was trying to give me what I wanted > from him.  I might be completely crazy and I have gotten a little rough > with people physically but I do not make an even bigger mess of a > student than I can avoid.  If I realized I had done so accidentally then > I would apologize to that student in front of the entire class. > I do not want to be the reason a student is afraid to speak in front of > a group.  It’s not only wrong but extremely counterproductive.  If you > didn’t care about that student at all just wanted him to deliver the > information in an organized fashion if the kid is about to piss his > pants then he won’t do a good job.  I’d tell him relax I don’t bite-much > or that often.  Or relax I had another student for breakfast and it’s > not lunch time yet even if you mess up I promise you won’t get hurt. > If he’s terrified of being humiliated then he won’t give me what I need > to know.  He’ll forget the pertainate facts and tank the briefing.  I > can’t help it I love messing with people too much to stop. > I’d make a student think he was in big trouble when I was just trying to > figure out what was the matter with him.  I think it’s funny to do that > sort of thing.  Get him thinking oh shit now I’ve really done it.  It’s > not cool to be the teacher’s pet so I’d discourage it that way.  Why > should I look for approval from a bunch of kids?  I say their safety > comes first, their dignity comes second and their friendship comes last > if it is considered at all.  If they are afraid that one of their > classmates might hurt them then they cannot concentrate on what I am > trying to teach them.  If they are afraid I might humiliate them in > front of their peers then they will be afraid to learn. If I do not have > respect for who they are then they will not learn to respect themselves > and if they feel rejected by their teacher then they won’t feel welcom e > in the classroom it will become a place where they failed and it will > cripple them in the future in their education.  I think I’d make a very > good teacher except for my enjoyment of scaring the hell out of the > students on a regular basis and acting like a bad ass.  Well it’s not > acting I really am that bad.  Which I hope they never see that side of > me but sometimes an idiot decides to see how far he can push you   and > you are trying not to and you just snap.  I’d feel comfortable with a > teacher who didn’t give a shit whether I liked them or not.  Because > I’ve had teachers who looked for the approval of the popular girls and > left me to fend for myself.  They let the other kids torture me because > they were looking to prop up their sagging self-esteem by catering to > the mob rather than protect a weak and terrified girl.  They betrayed me > because they were looking for approval rather than make certain that it > was safe for all their girls.  Well I had to deal with the others myself > and that led to some interesting consequences.  I basically hurt them > back as hard as I could and made the authority look ridiculous by > defying her and getting away with it.  She has a self esteem crisis I > decided to give her group problems to go with the low self esteem. > If you aren’t good enough without the authority then you’ll never be > good enough with it.  If the authority is worse than useless then what > is the point of cooperating with them?  If an authority yells at you and > berates you no matter how hard you try to please them don’t try just > carry out the minimum and just figure he’s not worth the trouble of > getting upset over his jack ass behavior.  That he’s just a screamer and > that is the way he’s going to be that is all you can reasonably expect > from him and if you can’t live with the way it is then get the hell out. > So you just give up on him ever doing anything except being a thorn in > your side.  He’s not going to like no matter what you decide to do about > anything so just act like all his attacks are normal utterances   and > ignore the fact that he’s being really insulting.  Well he can yell > scream insult you and belittle you but he can’t hurt you unless you let > him by believing what he is saying.  If he realizes that it’s not > working then he’ll stop doing it eventually because you’ve frustrated > him by refusing to play his little game or let him hurt you.   You > emotional detach from that person while maintaining the same proximity. > If you are cold towards him and impersonal looking like you wish he > would crawl back under that rock he crawled out from under. > Or suggest the best thing he could do to improve the work environment > would be to leave it.  Or remark that a stiff would be a better boss > eventhough the decomposition would start to make everyone puke.  I would > turn to my coworker after the boss left after berating me.  "You know > that’s my favorite part of our boss his back because when I see that > I’m so much happier.  Or I’d say geez I had more intelligent > conversations with people who have been dead for a while.     Or say > he’s always like that when he forgets to take his medication. > Anyone who attacks Katz becomes the butt of jokes. Anyone who refuses to > joke around gets made fun of.  Well I guess someone put too much starch > in that kid’s underwear.    I’m trying to imagine him with a personality > I can’t do it.

Response:

Hi Katz! > Can anyone tell me what all the varieties of post are like.  Well  I > know my post traumatic causes me to have a little trouble with > authority.  It’s not that I want to give authority a hard time it just > happens ok.

I could not read your whole post as it became entirely too painful for me. OTOH, I can say that there are a whole series of events which can cause PTSD.  If the trauma experience last for more than 6 months, then it is classified  as PTSD.  And can be diagnosed as such by a pdoc who is knowledgeable. Here’s a link: http://www.astpfaq.bravepages.com/index.html In my experience, all the varieties (aka ’causes’) of PTSD are merely the same song, with a different genesis.  In other words, no one song ‘belongs’ to one vocal artist, they all are ‘covering’ each other’s song. Treatment for PTSD seems to be rather standard now.  In the new century, it seems to be mostly cognitive therapy and medications for anxiety (and often depression) by experienced-in-PTSD professionals. In the old century, treatment was usually ‘drug them up with librium or valium’ and put them in a padded cell … for the rest of their life. If you are already diagnosed, I urge you to seek  appropriate treatment. If you are not diagnosed, I urge you to seek the appropriate diagnosis. PTSD can be a killer if not treated promptly and properly. :/ YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Katz, I’ve been gone a week on a so-called vacation…and I’m still tired and I work this morning….but I must say a few words.  They won’t give you comfort, they won’t make your life any better. But I do hear you.  I’ve been fucked by to many way to many times. Your anger is righteous!  I’ve been going thru anger madness for a long time now and I’m still not there!!!  It’s like it keeps building up….I let the steam out….only to have more and more anger surface. Bravo for you for sticking up for those who’ve been hurt.  I’ve done the same myself.  Let the f’rs strike back at me…..but stay away from my love ones. There is so much that I can not control in this world and so I know I must turn these things over to the ones who can truly help me…..God and my true Father. And PULLLEAASE no one bitch to me about writing those two little words that mean so much to me.  Been there so many times and I fn won’t take that any longer either.  I’ve fn had it with so many fn things in this fn world. Donna – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Can anyone tell me what all the varieties of post are like.  Well  I > know my post traumatic causes me to have a little trouble with > authority.  It’s not that I want to give authority a hard time it just > happens ok.  Well I don’t suppose it should be an excuse but I was > pretty badly abused by authority and even worse by my peers.  It may > have been my own fault I don’t know but I’m a little hostile and > distrustful of authority because life experience made me that way.  A > little wary of anyone offering to take care of everything or the > assurances that everything will be ok.  Or telling me to think > positively it’s kind of hard when you’re brother is dead cause some > asshole drank too damn much and decided that he could drive like that. >   Then he got off on a technicality because the police fucked up.  It’s > kind of hard to think positively when you want to kill your peers or at > least larydectomize them so they will stop pissing you off all the time >   by getting in your face and calling you retarded all the time. > Why should people expect me to be any different after I dealt with 22 > years of hell?  I mean how do you deal with the fact that your choir > master as a kid was a pedophile.  How are you supposed to forgive an > adult who taped your entire cabin full of girls mouths shut.  How are > you supposed to deal with the fact that your preschool teacher > alternated between berating and humiliating you at every opportunity and > neglecting you.  How are you supposed respect authority when you can’t > depend on them to do the right thing.  How are you supposed to trust > authority when you call them in and the situation gets even worse > because of them.  How am I supposed to forgive the system for not > getting justice for me or caring enough to do the job right?  How am I > supposed to trust the education system when they refuse to do what > federal law requires and I can’t make them without suing them.  They > hold the cards if I could just sue the entire state in federal court the > judge would basically order them to comply with federal law.  The > publicity would be a nightmare for their reelection campaign even if I > lost.  I think it would be hillarious to do that to them.  How am I > supposed to deal with the fact that while most people were dreaming > about what they wanted to be I was trying to figure out how to keep the > abusive fuckers off my peers and myself.  Also taking out the school > yard bully.  Also trying to figure out how to keep ass in one piece > while authority was no help at all. > In some cases I figured out how to completely trash an abusive teacher > without getting my arse busted in the process.  I completely destroyed a > college professor because he really pissed me off I damn nearly cleaned > his damn clock.  I’ve never wanted to punch a person more than I wanted > to clock that professor and the only reason I didn’t slug him was that > I’d taken ritalin and it helped me resist the urge to punch Headington > right in his arrogant face.  The reason I wanted to slug the fucker was >   that he humiliated a fellow student and copped an attitude with me > when I suggested he apologize to that student.  I might scream at a > student grab him by his shirt shove him out of the way if I was in a > hurry or lose my damn temper and go off like a nuke all the time but I > would never humiliate a student who was trying to give me what I wanted > from him.  I might be completely crazy and I have gotten a little rough > with people physically but I do not make an even bigger mess of a > student than I can avoid.  If I realized I had done so accidentally then > I would apologize to that student in front of the entire class. > I do not want to be the reason a student is afraid to speak in front of > a group.  It’s not only wrong but extremely counterproductive.  If you > didn’t care about that student at all just wanted him to deliver the > information in an organized fashion if the kid is about to piss his > pants then he won’t do a good job.  I’d tell him relax I don’t bite-much > or that often.  Or relax I had another student for breakfast and it’s > not lunch time yet even if you mess up I promise you won’t get hurt. > If he’s terrified of being humiliated then he won’t give me what I need > to know.  He’ll forget the pertainate facts and tank the briefing.  I > can’t help it I love messing with people too much to stop. > I’d make a student think he was in big trouble when I was just trying to > figure out what was the matter with him.  I think it’s funny to do that > sort of thing.  Get him thinking oh shit now I’ve really done it.  It’s > not cool to be the teacher’s pet so I’d discourage it that way.  Why > should I look for approval from a bunch of kids?  I say their safety > comes first, their dignity comes second and their friendship comes last > if it is considered at all.  If they are afraid that one of their > classmates might hurt them then they cannot concentrate on what I am > trying to teach them.  If they are afraid I might humiliate them in > front of their peers then they will be afraid to learn. If I do not have > respect for who they are then they will not learn to respect themselves > and if they feel rejected by their teacher then they won’t feel welcom e > in the classroom it will become a place where they failed and it will > cripple them in the future in their education.  I think I’d make a very > good teacher except for my enjoyment of scaring the hell out of the > students on a regular basis and acting like a bad ass.  Well it’s not > acting I really am that bad.  Which I hope they never see that side of > me but sometimes an idiot decides to see how far he can push you   and > you are trying not to and you just snap.  I’d feel comfortable with a > teacher who didn’t give a shit whether I liked them or not.  Because > I’ve had teachers who looked for the approval of the popular girls and > left me to fend for myself.  They let the other kids torture me because > they were looking to prop up their sagging self-esteem by catering to > the mob rather than protect a weak and terrified girl.  They betrayed me > because they were looking for approval rather than make certain that it > was safe for all their girls.  Well I had to deal with the others myself > and that led to some interesting consequences.  I basically hurt them > back as hard as I could and made the authority look ridiculous by > defying her and getting away with it.  She has a self esteem crisis I > decided to give her group problems to go with the low self esteem. > If you aren’t good enough without the authority then you’ll never be > good enough with it.  If the authority is worse than useless then what > is the point of cooperating with them?  If an authority yells at you and > berates you no matter how hard you try to please them don’t try just > carry out the minimum and just figure he’s not worth the trouble of > getting upset over his jack ass behavior.  That he’s just a screamer and > that is the way he’s going to be that is all you can reasonably expect > from him and if you can’t live with the way it is then get the hell out. > So you just give up on him ever doing anything except being a thorn in > your side.  He’s not going to like no matter what you decide to do about > anything so just act like all his attacks are normal utterances   and > ignore the fact that he’s being really insulting.  Well he can yell > scream insult you and belittle you but he can’t hurt you unless you let > him by believing what he is saying.  If he realizes that it’s not > working then he’ll stop doing it eventually because you’ve frustrated > him by refusing to play his little game or let him hurt you.   You > emotional detach from that person while maintaining the same proximity. > If you are cold towards him and impersonal looking like you wish he > would crawl back under that rock he crawled out from under. > Or suggest the best thing he could do to improve the work environment > would be to leave it.  Or remark that a stiff would be a better boss > eventhough the decomposition would start to make everyone puke.  I would > turn to my coworker after the boss left after berating me.  "You know > that’s my favorite part of our boss his back because when I see that > I’m so much happier.  Or I’d say geez I had more intelligent > conversations with people who have been dead for a while.     Or say > he’s always like that when he forgets to take his medication. > Anyone who attacks Katz becomes the butt of jokes. Anyone who refuses to > joke around gets made fun of.  Well I guess someone put too much starch > in that kid’s underwear.    I’m trying to imagine him with a personality > I can’t do it.

Response:

Can anyone tell me what all the varieties of post are like.  Well  I know my post traumatic causes me to have a little trouble with authority.  It’s not that I want to give authority a hard time it just happens ok.  Well I don’t suppose it should be an excuse but I was pretty badly abused by authority and even worse by my peers.  It may have been my own fault I don’t know but I’m a little hostile and distrustful of authority because life experience made me that way.  A little wary of anyone offering to take care of everything or the assurances that everything will be ok.  Or telling me to think positively it’s kind of hard when you’re brother is dead cause some asshole drank too damn much and decided that he could drive like that.   Then he got off on a technicality because the police fucked up.  It’s kind of hard to think positively when you want to kill your peers or at least larydectomize them so they will stop pissing you off all the time   by getting in your face and calling you retarded all the time. Why should people expect me to be any different after I dealt with 22 years of hell?  I mean how do you deal with the fact that your choir master as a kid was a pedophile.  How are you supposed to forgive an adult who taped your entire cabin full of girls mouths shut.  How are you supposed to deal with the fact that your preschool teacher alternated between berating and humiliating you at every opportunity and neglecting you.  How are you supposed respect authority when you can’t depend on them to do the right thing.  How are you supposed to trust authority when you call them in and the situation gets even worse because of them.  How am I supposed to forgive the system for not getting justice for me or caring enough to do the job right?  How am I supposed to trust the education system when they refuse to do what federal law requires and I can’t make them without suing them.  They hold the cards if I could just sue the entire state in federal court the judge would basically order them to comply with federal law.  The publicity would be a nightmare for their reelection campaign even if I lost.  I think it would be hillarious to do that to them.  How am I supposed to deal with the fact that while most people were dreaming about what they wanted to be I was trying to figure out how to keep the abusive fuckers off my peers and myself.  Also taking out the school yard bully.  Also trying to figure out how to keep ass in one piece while authority was no help at all. In some cases I figured out how to completely trash an abusive teacher without getting my arse busted in the process.  I completely destroyed a college professor because he really pissed me off I damn nearly cleaned his damn clock.  I’ve never wanted to punch a person more than I wanted to clock that professor and the only reason I didn’t slug him was that I’d taken ritalin and it helped me resist the urge to punch Headington right in his arrogant face.  The reason I wanted to slug the fucker was   that he humiliated a fellow student and copped an attitude with me when I suggested he apologize to that student.  I might scream at a student grab him by his shirt shove him out of the way if I was in a hurry or lose my damn temper and go off like a nuke all the time but I would never humiliate a student who was trying to give me what I wanted from him.  I might be completely crazy and I have gotten a little rough with people physically but I do not make an even bigger mess of a student than I can avoid.  If I realized I had done so accidentally then I would apologize to that student in front of the entire class. I do not want to be the reason a student is afraid to speak in front of a group.  It’s not only wrong but extremely counterproductive.  If you didn’t care about that student at all just wanted him to deliver the information in an organized fashion if the kid is about to piss his pants then he won’t do a good job.  I’d tell him relax I don’t bite-much or that often.  Or relax I had another student for breakfast and it’s not lunch time yet even if you mess up I promise you won’t get hurt. If he’s terrified of being humiliated then he won’t give me what I need to know.  He’ll forget the pertainate facts and tank the briefing.  I can’t help it I love messing with people too much to stop. I’d make a student think he was in big trouble when I was just trying to figure out what was the matter with him.  I think it’s funny to do that sort of thing.  Get him thinking oh shit now I’ve really done it.  It’s not cool to be the teacher’s pet so I’d discourage it that way.  Why should I look for approval from a bunch of kids?  I say their safety comes first, their dignity comes second and their friendship comes last if it is considered at all.  If they are afraid that one of their classmates might hurt them then they cannot concentrate on what I am trying to teach them.  If they are afraid I might humiliate them in front of their peers then they will be afraid to learn. If I do not have respect for who they are then they will not learn to respect themselves and if they feel rejected by their teacher then they won’t feel welcom e in the classroom it will become a place where they failed and it will cripple them in the future in their education.  I think I’d make a very good teacher except for my enjoyment of scaring the hell out of the students on a regular basis and acting like a bad ass.  Well it’s not acting I really am that bad.  Which I hope they never see that side of me but sometimes an idiot decides to see how far he can push you   and you are trying not to and you just snap.  I’d feel comfortable with a teacher who didn’t give a shit whether I liked them or not.  Because I’ve had teachers who looked for the approval of the popular girls and left me to fend for myself.  They let the other kids torture me because they were looking to prop up their sagging self-esteem by catering to the mob rather than protect a weak and terrified girl.  They betrayed me because they were looking for approval rather than make certain that it was safe for all their girls.  Well I had to deal with the others myself and that led to some interesting consequences.  I basically hurt them back as hard as I could and made the authority look ridiculous by defying her and getting away with it.  She has a self esteem crisis I decided to give her group problems to go with the low self esteem. If you aren’t good enough without the authority then you’ll never be good enough with it.  If the authority is worse than useless then what is the point of cooperating with them?  If an authority yells at you and berates you no matter how hard you try to please them don’t try just carry out the minimum and just figure he’s not worth the trouble of getting upset over his jack ass behavior.  That he’s just a screamer and that is the way he’s going to be that is all you can reasonably expect from him and if you can’t live with the way it is then get the hell out. So you just give up on him ever doing anything except being a thorn in your side.  He’s not going to like no matter what you decide to do about anything so just act like all his attacks are normal utterances   and ignore the fact that he’s being really insulting.  Well he can yell scream insult you and belittle you but he can’t hurt you unless you let him by believing what he is saying.  If he realizes that it’s not working then he’ll stop doing it eventually because you’ve frustrated him by refusing to play his little game or let him hurt you.   You emotional detach from that person while maintaining the same proximity. If you are cold towards him and impersonal looking like you wish he would crawl back under that rock he crawled out from under. Or suggest the best thing he could do to improve the work environment would be to leave it.  Or remark that a stiff would be a better boss eventhough the decomposition would start to make everyone puke.  I would turn to my coworker after the boss left after berating me.  "You know that’s my favorite part of our boss his back because when I see that I’m so much happier.  Or I’d say geez I had more intelligent conversations with people who have been dead for a while.     Or say he’s always like that when he forgets to take his medication. Anyone who attacks Katz becomes the butt of jokes. Anyone who refuses to joke around gets made fun of.  Well I guess someone put too much starch in that kid’s underwear.    I’m trying to imagine him with a personality I can’t do it.

Response:

Do I have this oppressive sense of fear? Things have been going well for me lately. Life has been pretty even (all things considering). Work is fine. People around me have been quite stable. I haven’t had any huge outbursts, justified or not. My children seem happy. I have this "calm before the storm" feeling brewing in my chest. I have to keep reminding myself to breathe- and I’m not making fun of blondes. Perhaps it’s because it’s coming up to a full moon. Perhaps I just can’t handle things being "fine". Please tell me I’m not the only one who gets anxious when things are going their way? Scorpio

Response:

Hi Scorpio! > Do I have this oppressive sense of fear? Things have been going well > for me lately. Life has been pretty even (all things considering). > Work is fine. People around me have been quite stable. I haven’t had > any huge outbursts, justified or not. My children seem happy. > I have this "calm before the storm" feeling brewing in my chest. I > have to keep reminding myself to breathe- and I’m not making fun of > blondes. Perhaps it’s because it’s coming up to a full moon. Perhaps I > just can’t handle things being "fine".

This is rather standard for those of us with PTSD. It has something to do with a physical addiction to stress hormones IME. One of my therapists explained it as: You have lived with stress hormones for most of your life.  Your body remembers this and considers it ‘normal’.  When your stress hormone level lowers, your body tries to get back to ‘normal’; one of the ways it does this is by creating ‘fake’ reasons for anxiety (fake is my word, not hers). Waiting for the next ’shoe to drop’ is a standard way for a body to create anxiety IME.  This is also characteristic of those with family members who are addicted to alcohol etc.  That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us with PTSD.  12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > Please tell me I’m not the only one who gets anxious when things are > going their way?

See above. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Nancy" <kipc…@msn.com> wrote in message news:WVONc.5$FW1.0@lakeread06… > Hi Scorpio! > > Do I have this oppressive sense of fear? Things have been going well > > for me lately. Life has been pretty even (all things considering). > > Work is fine. People around me have been quite stable. I haven’t had > > any huge outbursts, justified or not. My children seem happy. > > I have this "calm before the storm" feeling brewing in my chest. I > > have to keep reminding myself to breathe- and I’m not making fun of > > blondes. Perhaps it’s because it’s coming up to a full moon. Perhaps I > > just can’t handle things being "fine". > This is rather standard for those of us with PTSD. > It has something to do with a physical addiction to stress hormones IME. > One of my therapists explained it as: > You have lived with stress hormones for most of your life.  Your body > remembers this and considers it ‘normal’.  When your stress hormone level > lowers, your body tries to get back to ‘normal’; one of the ways it does > this is by creating ‘fake’ reasons for anxiety (fake is my word, not > hers). > Waiting for the next ’shoe to drop’ is a standard way for a body to > create anxiety IME.  This is also characteristic of those with family > members who are addicted to alcohol etc.  That is one reason why I > recommend 12 Step groups for those of us with PTSD.  12 Steppers have > created ways in their groups to reduce the need to create anxiety in > ourselves. > > Please tell me I’m not the only one who gets anxious when things are > > going their way?

Thanks for the feedback Nancy. It’s much appreciated. I keep control – I hold the reigns tight for so much of the day and night, when it starts to overwhelm me, I get very anxious. Your therapist makes sense in a way. I think I get so damned tired of analysing things that I’ve reached the stage where I’m just holding on. (in the mental sense)

Response:

Hi Scorpio! > I keep control – I hold the reigns tight for so much of the day and > night, when it starts to overwhelm me, I get very anxious.

Remember that ‘control is only an illusion’.  None of us has any ‘real’ control over what will happen next.  With PTSD treatment I finally understood that I have no control over the future of my days and nights, no matter how much I tried.  By 12 Stepping I learned that this lack of control is OK and a way to for me to live with the lack of control. > Your therapist makes sense in a way. I think I get so damned tired of > analysing things that I’ve reached the stage where I’m just holding > on. (in the mental sense)

Recovering from PTSD is more about ‘letting go’ that it is about ’struggle’ and/or ‘fighting the symptoms’ IME. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

In article <WVONc.5$FW1.0@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… <snipped> > That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us with > PTSD.  12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce the need > to create anxiety in ourselves.

I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and does not aim at independent recovery. As I understand it in essence the 12-step philosophy is such:- * One is irredeemably ’sick’, must attend group and follow a good ‘program’ forever. * One must remind oneself and constantly wallow in one’s ’sickness’. * At some point one must abdicate responsibility for one’s life, actions, thoughts, beliefs and behaviours to a ‘higher power’. * Complete dependence upon ‘god’ does not ‘cure’ but it enables abstinence. * Abstinence, group and ‘god’ are all it takes. * ‘Groupies’ are permanently damaged goods and incapable of looking after themselves without the help of group and ‘god’. * One can only be ‘helped’ by others who have ‘been there’. * If one ever claims to be ‘in recovery’ one is actually in denial. * If one ever tries to leave the group, one is likely to be accused of falling off one’s ‘program’ because one has succumbed to ‘denial’. * ‘Group’ is a case of the non-recovering telling the non-recovered how not to recover. 12-steps were invented by Christian fundamentalists, the very same people who brought about the Temperance movement and Prohibition. 12-steps employ similar recruitment and detainment strategies as fundamentalist Christian religions – find the flaw, make them dependent for eternity, provide the only life-line, restrict outside contact.   (Aside – these tactics are ALWAYS accompanied by abuse) If it hadn’t been spawned by religion 12-steps *might* have had a chance, though this is unlikely while groups are wholly and solely organised by people who freely, proudly, admit to living lives fully dependent upon ‘group’, ‘god’ and abstinence. The 12-steppers I know personally do not overcome anxiety.  Elements of the program may even induce anxiety by their very nature of dependency.   At best these 12-steppers smother anxiety by medicating it with more frequent attendance at ‘group’ and a personal commitment to try harder to connect with the ‘higher power’ (though they be very firmly free-thinker atheist). I do not know *anyone* who has recovered through 12-steps, but I do know several ‘recovered’ alcoholics who only made it after they broke free from 12-steps. In my humble opinion, people with PTSD have enough hurdles to stagger over without them becoming attached to a life-encompassing dependency. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude."        -  ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.

Response:

Hi Celt! >> That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us >> with PTSD.  12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce >> the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for > people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and > does not aim at independent recovery.

That’s a fair point if you truly believe it.  I only have > 20 years’ experience in several 12 Step groups, so I don’t know all the answers, but your assumptions above are a little off IMO. > As I understand it in essence the 12-step philosophy is such:-

        ————snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————- > The 12-steppers I know personally do not overcome anxiety.

Your experience is interesting to me.  Most of the aetheists I know are 12 Steppers.         ——-more snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————- > I do not know *anyone* who has recovered through 12-steps, but I do > know several ‘recovered’ alcoholics who only made it after they broke > free from 12-steps.

It works for some; for some 12 Stepping is not appropriate when dealing with their own addictions. However, I was not talking about those with addictions, but rather those in the complementary programs, who are forced (by biological or empathetic relationships) to ‘deal’ with the addicts. > In my humble opinion, people with PTSD have enough hurdles to stagger > over without them becoming attached to a life-encompassing dependency.

I agree.  However, being involuntarily attached to another person with a life-encompassing dependency (aka addiction) is rather difficult (but almost predictable) if one also has PTSD, don’t you agree? Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

In article <hvfOc.1335$FW1.19@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Celt! > >> That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us > >> with PTSD.  12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce > >> the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > > I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for > > people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and > > does not aim at independent recovery. > That’s a fair point if you truly believe it.  I only have > 20 years’ > experience in several 12 Step groups, so I don’t know all the answers, > but your assumptions above are a little off IMO. > > As I understand it in essence the 12-step philosophy is such:- >            ————snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————-

********************************************************** REPOSTED SO THAT THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE NOT BE SIDE-STEPPED ********************************************************** * One is irredeemably ’sick’, must attend group and follow a good ‘program’ forever. * One must remind oneself and constantly wallow in one’s ’sickness’. * At some point one must abdicate responsibility for one’s life, actions, thoughts, beliefs and behaviours to a ‘higher power’. * Complete dependence upon ‘god’ does not ‘cure’ but it enables abstinence. * Abstinence, group and ‘god’ are all it takes. * ‘Groupies’ are permanently damaged goods and incapable of looking after themselves without the help of group and ‘god’. * One can only be ‘helped’ by others who have ‘been there’. * If one ever claims to be ‘in recovery’ one is actually in denial. * If one ever tries to leave the group, one is likely to be accused of falling off one’s ‘program’ because one has succumbed to ‘denial’. * ‘Group’ is a case of the non-recovering telling the non-recovered how not to recover. ********************************************************** If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. I’ve sat in on a group or few myself, though never with the intention of becoming a member.  The experience was profoundly saddening – to see nearly 2 dozen people wallowing in their misery;  at times it looked like a ‘plot thinktank’ for Days Of Our Lives.  I wondered how long they’d put their lives on hold – past and future – all for the morbid joy of a weekly rehashing of their woes.  Everybody, without exception, was a ‘victim’ – one way or another. I’ve been recovered and maintaining it for several years.  I know at least one person who spent longer than that at AA and never progressed past denying herself so much as the scent of alcohol.  She was a dedicated Christian from childhood, embraced the ‘god’ thing with a passion and firmly believed in 12-steps.  She was never a sponsor, though, because she also believed that if someone called on her to stop them drinking alcohol, she’d end up calling her own sponsor.  So it was to the day she died. > > The 12-steppers I know personally do not overcome anxiety. > Your experience is interesting to me.  Most of the aetheists I know are > 12 Steppers.

I can tell you from pretty direct contact with several hundred atheists (at least) that they do not support nor follow 12-step programs. Until last September I spent the best part of 4 years debating religion at M$N chat as a freethinking humanist, materialist pantheist.  For the whole of that time I helped host (mod) a string of informal freethinker and atheist chat rooms.  I really do know quite a few atheists.  Ask around about ‘Celt’ over there.  Perhaps they will have heard of me.   Alas my forum posts were few, but I would post a link if anyone asks. Apart from that, I have one personal acquaintance who openly professes to be Christian.  She is a recovered heroin addict who hasn’t done 12-steps because she stumbled upon Church first.  The other few dozen are atheist, agnostic, freethinker or pagan. *None* of the atheists I know, whether personally or online has ever stayed with a 12-step program.  Very few of them even consider attending.   The moment the proselytising begins, they are gone.  Certainly *none* of them have ever recovered or even progressed towards recovery at the hands of 12-steps.  As soon as they drop abstinence, the whole thing falls over because they don’t ever deal with the PROBLEM, they just stop giving it an outlet. 12-steps *don’t* deal with the PROBLEM.  They only address the end result of it.  Stop that end result happening = instant cure, or so the 12-steps movement thinks. >            ——-more snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————-

************************************************************************ REPOSTED SO AN IMPORTANT POINT NOT BE CASUALLY CAST ASIDE ************************************************************************ 12-steps were invented by Christian fundamentalists, the very same people who brought about the Temperance movement and Prohibition. 12-steps employ similar recruitment and detainment strategies as fundamentalist Christian religions – find the flaw, make them dependent for eternity, provide the only life-line, restrict outside contact.   (Aside – these tactics are ALWAYS accompanied by abuse) ************************************************************************ Please explain how you deem these facts "nonsense", Nancy. Suggesting 12-steps as a solution to an atheist or non-Christian is an insult.  The casual assumption that something based on ‘god’ will work is incredibly irritating, disrespectful and often judgmental, too.  Many an atheist would argue (quite convincingly) that people who believe in invisible beings have got far greater problems than a mere over- indulgence in alcohol. > > I do not know *anyone* who has recovered through 12-steps, but I do > > know several ‘recovered’ alcoholics who only made it after they broke > > free from 12-steps. > It works for some; for some 12 Stepping is not appropriate when dealing > with their own addictions.

I was not speaking only of substance addictions.  I was thinking and speaking of *behavioural* addictions, using alcohol as a best-known general example.  Things like co-dependency, dependency, anxiety and depression.  12-steps makes *these* addictions much worse because it feeds and nurtures them. Alcoholism is an addiction to the behaviour of avoiding unpleasant feelings by getting drunk. Co-Dependency is an addiction to the behaviour of not thinking of or being responsible for oneself as a separate individual. Dependency is an addiction to being looked after. Depression is an addiction to negative thinking. Anxiety is an addiction to worry. Histrionics is an addiction to excitement. Borderline is an addiction to control. I will agree that any or all of these addictions are a common and natural part of recovering from abuse or trauma.  The post-traumatic psyche is in a highly fragile state which makes a fertile ground for all kinds of dependencys and addictions. > However, I was not talking about those with addictions, but rather those > in the complementary programs, who are forced (by biological or > empathetic relationships) to ‘deal’ with the addicts.

So was I.  Al-Anon was far worse for wallowing than either AA or Narc- Anon.  Half of the group whined about how victimised they were while the other half encouraged them and told them how helpless they’d be in the face of it if not for Group.  (An anecdote from Celt’s informal memiors.) By the way, *most* of what I hold as truth (and present as fact) about 12-steps comes from reading self-help and psychology books and not from personal experience, sharing or chatting. Most of it was researched from an interest in co-dependency, borderline and narcissist – not PTSD or substance addictions. > > In my humble opinion, people with PTSD have enough hurdles to stagger > > over without them becoming attached to a life-encompassing dependency. > I agree.  However, being involuntarily attached to another person with a > life-encompassing dependency (aka addiction) is rather difficult (but > almost predictable) if one also has PTSD, don’t you agree?

A case, perhaps, of birds of a feather? People who perceive themselves as victims of abuse have a reputation for attaching themselves to people who present an image of controlled power. Both of these personality types have a roughly equal chance of arising from past trauma. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude."        -  ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.

Response:

Hi Celt! > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so.

I am not interested in debating these points, Celt.  I disagree with you and state simply that your experience is not mine. > By the way, *most* of what I hold as truth (and present as fact) about > 12-steps comes from reading self-help and psychology books and not > from personal experience, sharing or chatting.

That does a lot to explain why we have different POVs. :/ Until you have about 10 meetings of the same group under your belt, it is not possible IME to understand 12 Step recovery. Some p-docs and p-therapists support 12 Step groups and some do not.  The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. I, personally, would never have been able to enter therapy without first having 12 Stepped. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

In article <sKtOc.2602$FW1.2432@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… > Hi Celt! > > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > I am not interested in debating these points, Celt.  

Nor am I, Nancy.  It is a commonly held belief that debating provable facts is futile. I was using them to back up my initial aim which was to question whether tossing people into the 12-steps net would be the wisest thing to do to if they have PTSD.  These reasons are why it is unlikely to have any real long term or permanent positive results or be in their better interests at all. Simply put, the majority of 12-steps programs feed and nurture unhealthy behaviour. Some of those points have serious implications for people with PTSD and those who live with them. And yet, twice now, you have dismissed the opportunity to show that you take these issues into consideration before suggesting to an individual that they get some group. Upon reflection it has occurred to me that you might well be in no emotional position to withstand an honest appraisal of the 12-steps movement even from within, and therefore I shall leave your reaction and ancillary comments as proof of the validity of my points.  20 years! > I disagree with you and state simply that your experience is not mine.

I’m certainly not surprised that you disagree with me.  Were I in your stated position, I’d most likely be disagreeing with me too. I appreciate fully that our paths have differed considerably.  I, for example, would say that I recovered this far within 12 months, not 12 steps. > > By the way, *most* of what I hold as truth (and present as fact) about > > 12-steps comes from reading self-help and psychology books and not > > from personal experience, sharing or chatting. > That does a lot to explain why we have different POVs. :/

Yes, you are right, it does.  I have collected my knowledge from hardcover books, peer reviewed and published by companies with reputations at stake.  I read several of these books from keen interest before I had contact with any groups and so had not succumbed as the unwary into a toxic environment.  I haven’t immersed myself in that environment to learn coping strategies and props to support my daily life.  As a result I have no idea whatsoever of the strength and intensity of emotional ties that invariably form within informal groups like most of 12-steps. > Until you have about 10 meetings of the same group under your belt, it is > not possible IME to understand 12 Step recovery.

I doubt very much if I’d manage it by then.  I would be looking at it from a recovered point of view rather than that of a victimised or healing individual and it is very unlikely I’d fall into the trap. Incidentally, the admonition to attend at least 10 meetings before I make up my mind smacks of obligation, leading me to react to it as emotional blackmail.  It also has not escaped my attention that this is a commonly used recruitment ploy, flourished in an attempt to suck the needy in long enough to get them fully hooked. > Some p-docs and p-therapists support 12 Step groups and some do not.

This is very true.  Also, some p-docs and p-therapists aim to have their clients recover and take up healthy lifestyles within 12 months and there are others that don’t achieve it in years. Note: this is not necessarily the fault of the p-provider. > The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio.

Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program offered.  Where I live in Australia (and some other places both inside and outside the US) the majority of 12-step groups are informal affairs with ‘leadership’ passed down through other groupies. There is no formal training involved;  any groupie might be chosen to be leader.  This may well depend on how passionately they embrace their program and group or rest on simply having ‘been there’.  There is no ‘management’ to ensure group stays within healthy boundaries. It would be one thing to send people only to a professionally monitored group but entirely another where quality control is non- existent.  In refusing to respond in any way to any of my points, I have moved toward concluding that minor details like what *quality* of group your targets will end up in are unlikely to trouble you to any extent. In light of this there is also the matter of how atheists react to being encouraged to attend 12-steps.  Most atheists (and like-minded others) will interpret it as a sign that the advisor lacks respect for or understanding of their spiritual belief or lack there-of.  Atheists do not believe in a ‘god’ and imagining that they can ‘give up’ responsibility for their problem to an invisible crutch shows an alarming degree of inconsideration.   There is a widely held attitude that AA is church for non-churchgoers, and that the offshoot 12-step groups (AlAnon et. al) grew because simply not enough heathens are alcoholics. I’m not saying these are your motives, just letting on that this may be how they will be interpreted by those already in the know. Atheists not in the know will catch on within the first few meetings. Either way, it’s unlikely to foster a good opinion of your behaviour and perceived intent.  Of course this doesn’t concern me directly at all; I rather hoped it would concern you, though. > I, personally, would never have been able to enter therapy without first > having 12 Stepped.

I, personally, would never have made it to recovery if I had. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude."        -  ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.

Response:

In article <ceg72n$9b…@216.39.134.150@theriver.com>, bckw…@theriver.com carefully typed… > so, Celt, are you trying to say that you’re an atheist?  Is that your > argument against 12 steppers?  Is so, just spit it out.  We’re adults > here….at least I am….so just what is it that you’re trying to say?

Not at all.  I am most assuredly *NOT* atheist.  I am pantheist, a view I have held more or less entire for a dozen years or so.  In a rare burst of possesive excess I insist that it is *my* belief and you and anyone else will just have to go get their own. I’m trying to say that not only is it pointless to send atheists and non- Christians to a Christian based organisation, it’s insulting to even consider doing so. Many of the atheists I know are atheist because they were abused in the name of religion as children.  Suggesting they attend 12-steps is an extension of that abuse. Apart from that it’s arrogant, judgmental and just plain rude – not healthy for anyone, especially people with PTSD, including atheists. I would protest exposing Christians to 12-steps on the grounds that it would only compound things for them.  For the others I protest on the grounds that it smacks of subversive conversion *and* it would only compound things. I ought make it clear that I do not think Nancy is recruiting on behalf of religion.  If she is, I apologise for my hasty assumption. I am trying to point out that alternative and non- believers are likely to be (rightfully) affronted. I don’t ‘like’ 12-steps because it is inherently ‘toxic’ and seriously flawed at several major and load-bearing junctions.   I have nothing at all against 12-steppers, unless they begin to recruit.   Even so, it isn’t that they try to recruit that I object to but who,   *how* and why. The ‘herd’ mentality – which begins to take over when humans get together in groups – is vastly different from the individual mentality, even within the same individual.  Therefore 12-steppers are not inherently bad, sick or devalued – by me at any rate.  It’s my considered view that at worst they are most likely misguided and perhaps underinformed. There is no shame in being gulled by something that presents itself as pure, wholesome and good. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude."        -  ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.

Response:

"Celt" <celt.NOS…@NOSERVER.gcn.cx> wrote in message

news:MPG.1b763214688b721a98968c@cp-news.centix.net… > In article <sKtOc.2602$FW1.2432@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully > typed… > > Hi Celt!

(good stuff deleted) I would just like to say that I have attended AA one a week for eleven years now and haven’t I attempted the steps. Nor have I got up and shared. During my time at AA my drinking has diminished from about twenty beers to about six beers a day. I have seen a lot come and go and a few have managed not to pick up the first drink. Quite a few drank themselves to death too because of the guilt of picking up a drink after being sober for years. The brain washing can do that, and I’ve witnessed it many times. I’m not into the guilt trips. I show up sober, put my dollar in for a coffee, sit myself down on those god awful chairs and try not to make a nuisance of myself. Say the serenity prayer. Oh  I hear some beaut stories too. Old timers occasionally tell me to set an example to the new comers. But I don’t see any sense in being a dry resented old bastard who is in the process of smoking themselves to death like most old timers. Eric

Response:

"Celt" <celt.NOS…@NOSERVER.gcn.cx> wrote in message

news:MPG.1b764a7ef905d00098968d@cp-news.centix.net… > In article <ceg72n$9b…@216.39.134.150@theriver.com>, > bckw…@theriver.com carefully typed… > > so, Celt, are you trying to say that you’re an atheist?  Is that your > > argument against 12 steppers?  Is so, just spit it out.  We’re adults > > here….at least I am….so just what is it that you’re trying to say? > Not at all.  I am most assuredly *NOT* atheist.  I am pantheist, a view I

(deleted) So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. Eric

Response:

> So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. > Eric

What’s do you mean by that Eric? Dave.

Response:

"sway" <s…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:410c0fb4@dnews.tpgi.com.au… > > So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. > > Eric > What’s do you mean by that Eric? Dave.

Sorry Dave, but seen I hadn’t a clue what a Pantheist was I looked it up and found a Pantheist is someone who believes that God and the universe are the same. Well there was me thinking it was obvious that God and the universe are the same thing. And then thinking that Celt was trying to bamboozle us with words, I tried to be sarcastic. I have to admit Celt is way ahead of me in the brains department, then again so are most people. Eric

Response:

"bckwrds" <bckw…@theriver.com> wrote in message

news:cehf6k$og6$0@216.39.135.26@theriver.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Not at all.  I am most assuredly *NOT* atheist.  I am pantheist, a view I > > have held more or less entire for a dozen years or so.  In a rare burst > > of possesive excess I insist that it is *my* belief and you and anyone > > else will just have to go get their own. > So you worship "all" gods? Is there no "leader"? > > I’m trying to say that not only is it pointless to send atheists and non- > > Christians to a Christian based organisation, it’s insulting to even > > consider doing so. > I’ll agree with this…..I don’t think it’s possible to make, convert, > (insert > your term) anyone believe who just refuses to do so. > > Many of the atheists I know are atheist because they were abused in the > > name of religion as children.  Suggesting they attend 12-steps is an > > extension of that abuse. > I was abused by a so-call pastor….but it was the man who was evil. > Even the church where he preached was clean.  But the man was bad. > Different strokes for different folks…..that’s how I see it.  I’ve learned > a lot of truths on my healing journey and I hope to learn a lot more. > Donna > > Apart from that it’s arrogant, judgmental and just plain rude – not > > healthy for anyone, especially people with PTSD, including atheists. > > I would protest exposing Christians to 12-steps on the grounds that it > > would only compound things for them.  For the others I protest on the > > grounds that it smacks of subversive conversion *and* it would only > > compound things. > > I ought make it clear that I do not think Nancy is recruiting on behalf > > of religion.  If she is, I apologise for my hasty assumption. > > I am trying to point out that alternative and non- believers are likely > > to be (rightfully) affronted. > > I don’t ‘like’ 12-steps because it is inherently ‘toxic’ and seriously > > flawed at several major and load-bearing junctions. > > I have nothing at all against 12-steppers, unless they begin to recruit. > > Even so, it isn’t that they try to recruit that I object to but who, > > *how* and why. > > The ‘herd’ mentality – which begins to take over when humans get together > > in groups – is vastly different from the individual mentality, even > > within the same individual.  Therefore 12-steppers are not inherently > > bad, sick or devalued – by me at any rate.  It’s my considered view that > > at worst they are most likely misguided and perhaps underinformed. > > There is no shame in being gulled by something that presents itself as > > pure, wholesome and good. > > Walk tall, > > Celt.

I tend to believe that it doesn’t matter what you believe in just as long as what you believe doesn’t do others any harm. Me? Although I believe the bible is an exaggerated story, I still chose the Christian way. The need to do good makes me feel good too. But my private belief is that there is not one living soul on this earth who has a clue to why we exist. I chose to believe that we are here to contribute our energy and knowledge to one source, (God.) I also believe that God is continually placing obstacles in our path so we can find a way round them in order to increase our intelligence. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if we soon discover that the speed of light isn’t constant, thus throwing Einstein’s theory of relativity out of the window. Eric

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. > > > Eric > > What’s do you mean by that Eric? Dave. > Sorry Dave, but seen I hadn’t a clue what a Pantheist was I looked it up and > found a Pantheist is someone who believes that God and the universe are the > same. Well there was me thinking it was obvious that God and the universe > are the same thing. And then thinking that Celt was trying to bamboozle us > with words, I tried to be sarcastic. I have to admit Celt is way ahead of me > in the brains department, then again so are most people. > Eric

You’re right mate, no worries at all

Response:

Scuse the scissors mates.. > I tend to believe that it doesn’t matter what you believe in just as long as > what you believe doesn’t do others any harm. > But my private belief is that there is not one living soul on this earth who > has a clue to why we exist. > Eric

Eric, you have just disproven your ‘behind in the brains dept theory’! Well said digger Dave.

Response:

"sway" <s…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:410cbca6@dnews.tpgi.com.au: >> Well there was me thinking it was obvious that God and the >> universe are the same thing. And then thinking that Celt was trying >> to bamboozle us with words, I tried to be sarcastic. I have to admit >> Celt is way ahead of > me >> in the brains department, then again so are most people. >> Eric > You’re right mate, no worries at all

Well, being a good Catholic boy Dragged to the Church by my Mother every bloody Sunday, buggering up a good weekend (we lived in the country, took 4 hours out of a Sunday) I have a different theory.  On this planet there are different races, none quite the same.  There have been sitings of UFO’s for centuries, so, how about an idea where a few planets got together and decided to habitate another planet with a mixture of humanoids and animals and see what happened. The rest is history, they keep coming back and piss off as quick as they arrived, and who would blame them.  It’s a mess, mainly caused by religion and bias.  The animals were a success in some areas, mixed races… okay, mixed beliefs NO! I shall take my pills and go to bed Nite all, Ron

Response:

"Nancy" <kipc…@msn.com> wrote in message

news:hvfOc.1335$FW1.19@lakeread06… > Hi Celt! > >> That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us > >> with PTSD.  12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce > >> the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > > I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for > > people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and > > does not aim at independent recovery. > That’s a fair point if you truly believe it.  I only have > 20 years’ > experience in several 12 Step groups, so I don’t know all the answers, > but your assumptions above are a little off IMO.

I’ve known 2 people who have participated in 12 Steps and have had positive experiences there. There must be something to it if it was able to help them help themselves as much as they did. One has PTSD, the other one doesn’t.

Response:

Hi Celt! >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt.   > Nor am I, Nancy.  It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > facts is futile.

           —————large snip ————– >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > offered.

Not a chance!  The VA only provides rentable rooms with chairs and a multitiude of vets with addictions.  The groups run the same way that you describe below. > Where I live in Australia (and some other places both inside > and outside the US) the majority of 12-step groups are informal > affairs with ‘leadership’ passed down through other groupies. There is > no formal training involved;  any groupie might be chosen to be > leader.  This may well depend on how passionately they embrace their > program and group or rest on simply having ‘been there’.  There is no > ‘management’ to ensure group stays within healthy boundaries. > It would be one thing to send people only to a professionally > monitored group but entirely another where quality control is non- > existent.  In refusing to respond in any way to any of my points, I > have moved toward concluding that minor details like what *quality* of > group your targets will end up in are unlikely to trouble you to any > extent.

Targets?  Is that how you view the folks on this ng? I expect also that you feel a need to define the ‘quality’ of a group.   Very Hamiltonian of you. Reminds me of the question I heard from a prof in a MBA ethics course.   Should all people be able to vote in an election or only landowners and educated folks? His opinion was that the ‘great unwashed masses’ make pretty good decisions in the USA … over time. Very Jeffersonian of him.                 ————–another snip————– > I’m not saying these are your motives, just letting on that this may > be how they will be interpreted by those already in the know. Atheists > not in the know will catch on within the first few meetings. Either > way, it’s unlikely to foster a good opinion of your behaviour and > perceived intent.  Of course this doesn’t concern me directly at all; > I rather hoped it would concern you, though.

My motives do not require interpretation or perception of intent.  I merely state what has worked for me.  Usually I also say YMMV.   I am content if you are willing to say what has worked for you, not what you so feared that you looked up an amazing amount of information (mostly fallacious, already debunked urban legends) to justify your avoidance.   IME it is much easier to be authentic when talking about things I know and/or have discussed extensively with pros, rather than things someone with no experience on the subject has told me or written hysterically about. As always, YMMV. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

In article <vjiPc.6660$FW1.1647@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Celt! > >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt.   > > Nor am I, Nancy.  It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > > facts is futile. >               —————large snip ————– > >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > > offered. > Not a chance!  The VA only provides rentable rooms with chairs and a > multitiude of vets with addictions.  The groups run the same way that you > describe below.

There were 6 blind men in the middle of a deserted carpark.  They were hot and thirsty so they decided to go get a drink.  To keep together and stay on track, each man took hold of another man’s shirt.  And so, they set forth. Some time later a man approached. "What are you doing?" "Going for a drink" "How are you getting there?" "I’m following him"   The man was silent for a long moment.  Finally he spoke.  "Where’s he going?" "He doesn’t know because none of us can see, but we know there are drinks to be had out there somewhere and we must be getting close ‘cos we’ve been walking for hours." Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude."        -  ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.

Response:

"Celt" <celt.NOS…@NOSERVER.gcn.cx> wrote in message

news:MPG.1b78996daab29c7898968f@cp-news.centix.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <vjiPc.6660$FW1.1647@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully > typed… > > Hi Celt! > > >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > > >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt. > > > Nor am I, Nancy.  It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > > > facts is futile. > >        —————large snip ————– > > >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > > > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > > > offered. > > Not a chance!  The VA only provides rentable rooms with chairs and a > > multitiude of vets with addictions.  The groups run the same way that you > > describe below. > There were 6 blind men in the middle of a deserted carpark.  They were > hot and thirsty so they decided to go get a drink.  To keep together and > stay on track, each man took hold of another man’s shirt.  And so, they > set forth. > Some time later a man approached. > "What are you doing?" > "Going for a drink" > "How are you getting there?" > "I’m following him" > The man was silent for a long moment.  Finally he spoke.  "Where’s he > going?" > "He doesn’t know because none of us can see, but we know there are drinks > to be had out there somewhere and we must be getting close ‘cos we’ve > been walking for hours."

I take it that you are suggesting that the leader needs to have sight. If so, the leader may turn out to be someone not to be trusted and intends to lead the other five men astray. If it were me who was one of those unfortunate blind people I would tend to stick with my blind mates until we all could taste the drink put in front of us. Its a bit like the before the "big bang" universe creationist theory where most people think that first there was this unimaginable endless space with something the size of a orange in the middle. And then in a split second the orange exploded to fill the empty space with matter. Not so.The common theory is that the only thing that existed before the "big bang" was the orange without the surrounding space. You see space was created after the "big bang" Now how does my analogy relate to those six blind men? Well in this case, first those men they were only six in number and the six of them were all on the same path sticking together until water came their way. Then after a drink they discussed the problem and set out on different paths to solve the water problem. And how does all relate to AA? First there is a group of people two discuss a common problem and then after learning something they set out on different paths for the common good. Not the other way around where there is one well meaning person devoid of the problem, armed with knowledge, who sets out to gather problematic together in order to help them. Bring the case, the only person to benefit is usually the well meaning person who may go on to form other groups of well meaning people to eventually exist by virtue off the problematic people. Now as Ron says, "I’ll take my meds" Eric

Response:

"Eric" <EricNOS…@bigpond.com> wrote in news:tVnPc.28686$K53.12039@news-server.bigpond.net.au: > Now how does my analogy relate to those six blind men? > Well in this case, first those men they were only six in number and > the six of them were all on the same path sticking together until > water came their way. > Then after a drink they discussed the problem and set out on different > paths to solve the water problem. > Now as Ron says, "I’ll take my meds" > Eric

Saw an interesting article the other day, a bar has been set up for blind people, no lights, blind barmen and blind waiters.  Those who can see are at a big disadvantage, as every one else is fine and enjoying them selves in complete darkness. I guess I can understand it, they are safe amongst themselves, and any robber who arrives has lost his big advantage, sight! Cheers, Ron

Response:

In article <Xns9539C964454D9nof…@129.250.170.90>, Ron the Barbarian <Newsguy> says… > Saw an interesting article the other day, a bar has been set up for blind > people, no lights, blind barmen and blind waiters.  Those who can see are > at a big disadvantage, as every one else is fine and enjoying them selves > in complete darkness. > I guess I can understand it, they are safe amongst themselves, and any > robber who arrives has lost his big advantage, sight!

Surely even the dimmest robber would take along a flashlight if he was going into a dark place? He wouldn’t even need to hide his face, and there would be no danger from security cameras. But I suggest that the blind people don’t do it for security, but rather so that they don’t feel like second-class citizens when they are having a bit of a relax in company. Peter

Response:

In article <vjiPc.6660$FW1.1647@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… > Hi Celt! > >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt.   > > Nor am I, Nancy.  It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > > facts is futile. >               —————large snip ————– > >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > > offered.

Dealt with elsewhere. <snip> > Targets?  Is that how you view the folks on this ng?

What makes you think I think of them as targets? <snip> > I expect also that you feel a need to define the ‘quality’ of a group.   > Very Hamiltonian of you.

I have no idea who ‘Hamilton’ is and care even less. The ‘quality’ of the group is in the results it achieves.   How long to recover, how sound a recovery, what crutches remain afterwards – stuff like that. Another factor which might be taken into account is how many otherwise cheerful, productive *worthwhile* years are wasted in groups with not much more to show for it than small progress made even after *decades* of regular and religious attendance, ‘recovery’ that wobbles and crumbles every time life throws 3 spits at the back of the hand, and a continuing lifestyle that requires the group to sustain itself. > Reminds me of the question I heard from a prof in a MBA ethics course.   > Should all people be able to vote in an election or only landowners and > educated folks?

Should ’sick’ people (using the image created by 12-steps) be allowed to   manage and administer their own treatment?  Or, to put it another way, should the blind lead each other across the street?  Or do you mean 12- steps = ‘recovery’ for the stupid? > His opinion was that the ‘great unwashed masses’ make pretty good > decisions in the USA … over time.

Well, if I might be so bold as to make an assumption of my own, I shall assume you mean decisions like going to war or demanding ‘Fair’ Trade agreements with ‘Allies’ that take much from the ‘Ally’ and give all to the USA because their farmers cannot possibly support themselves if they play by the same trade conditions as, say, Australian farmers or Pacific Islanders and so we should, of course, subsidise them.  Torturing prisoners.  Dictating to countries on the basis of a *defence* agreement what plants may legally be grown within said country or possessed by its citizens.  Imprisoning people for being where the US didn’t want them to be for *years* without laying one single charge, not even for spitting on the nice sergeant’s shiny boots.  Tolerating a welfare system that leaves the aged and infirm living on the streets in any weather and quibbles over little things like whether poor people really *deserve* quality medical care they can’t pay for.  Annihilating the political structure of another country because they don’t like the way they do business;  bring war upon it’s citizenry based on a pack of lies and in defiance of the UN they voted to support;  render the country a humanitarian nightmare with the people suffering worse hardship than under any kind of government, and still can’t seem to just mind their own business and at least wait to be *asked*.  Inflicting religion (Christian only, thanks) on the world at large.  Dictating market forces.  Fighting over another country’s resources. And while I think of it, have you ever delved into the 9/11 conspiracy theories? Yup.  I like those kind of decisions.  *IF* I were a Yank. Ah, no hang on… the unwashed masses don’t do those things.  They only elect the people who do. Was that *un*washed or *brain*washed? > Very Jeffersonian of him.

Heard of him, know about as much about him as I do about the other fellow, but care even less. > My motives do not require interpretation or perception of intent.

Well, see, that isn’t up to only you to decide.  The person you have the exchange with also has the right, and ability, to form their own opinions of why you chose to throw them at 12-steps.  These opinions may not be correct, may even be blatant assumptions and quite possibly have absolutely *no* basis in fact apart from that they were influenced by reminders of an unhappy childhood.  Never-the-less, they will be as valid to their owner as any of their other opinions. > I merely state what has worked for me.  Usually I also say YMMV.  

For the most part, this is good common sense and the best way to support people, with a few minor refinements. I formulated this list by imagining (from my recovered perspective) the things I thought I’d like to know or consider important, were you referring me (as a suffering survivor) to 12-steps:- * Be honest about how long it takes. * Be honest about recovery goals – like do they help define any at all? * Be honest about how ‘good’ the recovery is and how much freedom and inner peace you really have in your recovered life. * Be honest about whether you have been able to maintain your recovery without some kind of prop (med, person, professional, group, eg)  how long for, and what changes it made to your life.  For example, you might say something like: "Group helped me so much I was able to move on to recovery after a couple of years. I found I could function quite well even without group and didn’t bother to go for [YEARS].  Then after [event] I decided to go back to group to see if I had anything to offer from my experience." * Be honest about the level and number of recovery successes within the group as a whole. * Be honest about the downsides.  Things like – "the groups in your area might be run by a bunch of clueless people who just don’t really want to grow up" or "take care that the AlAnon in your area hasn’t been taken over by a manipulative and malicious power-freak bitch",  "be aware that if a really charming sociopath wants to set up a group, nobody can stop him" or even  "… study found that in my state [XX%] of groups were run by people with co-dependent personalities." * Encourage people to only attend groups that you yourself would either attend or vouch for personally. I say these things because another’s recovery is a thing to be respected – more, even, than one’s own. IMO. > I am content if you are willing to say what has worked for you,

Well, I’m pleased to read that Nancy.  I do hope it meets your expectations of quality control. What worked for me was steering the hell clear of any 12-steps group and being responsible for myself.  You can quote me. > not what you so feared

Are you sure you got that from me?  If so, how? Nancy, I told you before.  I read those books before I even knew what 12- steps was.  After I read those books I knew the words "12-steps" but was still none the wiser.  I can’t fear something I don’t know about. Those books were not about 12-steps at all.  Those books were about how to spot abuse and how to think like a healthy, rational, happy, peaceful, confident, mature adult. As a result, I spotted 12-steps straight off as abusing my right to a rapid recovery. I learned that even the original founding members (15 or more years on – yup, ’til death do they part) were still ‘victims’ and had nothing to offer toward recovery, but were walking encyclopedias about how to cope in a rough spot. I ended up not feeling very comfortable because I had too many real solutions that meant giving up group one day and I got rather weary of seeing those pained looks.  It was either that or lie and I feel even less comfortable with that. I have read, in my entire life, ONE book that dealt specifically with 12- steps and ONE other book which covered toxic ‘recovery’ programs, including 12-steps.  I read both of those sometime during the past year – a long time (several years) after I had decided by other means that 12- steps were poison, to be avoided at all costs and their members too while they were under the groupie spell. > that you looked up an amazing amount of information

I should like to point out that I have not told you exactly how many books I read in total (I couldn’t because even I don’t know), nor could you have any idea how much information I gleaned from them.   Please do not disguise lies as accusations or assumptions and throw them at me.  Abusers do that kind of thing to me. I was not ‘looking up’ anything.  I was aiming at at recovering as far as I was able within 12 months.  The books literally landed in my lap.  I did nothing to seek them out beyond reading the back cover out of casual curiosity, getting hooked and going from there. There really *are* books out there that can immunise a person against 12- steps for life while barely making mention of it and then usually in the preface or closing chapters. They didn’t have to debunk group, it did that very thoroughly for itself. > (mostly fallacious, already debunked urban legends)

Again, I haven’t told you *which* books I read (and again, I mostly can’t anyway), so you have no way of knowing yourself if that statement is true.   Please do not tell me lies about myself because I will recognise them instantly as lies. People with PhD’s are usually far too busy to be writing urban legends.   I think it’s a stunning coincidence that so many of them agree with each other, too. Hang on, I don’t believe in coincidences. > to justify your avoidance.

I, um…   What have I said or even implied that warrants this? Avoid what?  I’m recovered, Nancy.  I was recovered 2 years before I even knew that the thing called ‘AA’ that I’d suddenly started hearing about (through friends) was one of these ‘12-step groups’.  I had no reason to avoid anything.   I can’t avoid something I don’t know about, simple as that. I sincerely hope this doesn’t mean you think recovered people are the same as suffering survivors, just with … read more »

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hi – my partner was diagnosed with PTSD about 2 years ago following a life threatening car crash and is only now beginning the process of getting medical and psychological support for it.  we have known each other for about a year (since well after the accident) and he has until recently done an impressive job of hiding all his symptoms from me and the rest of the world.  however, about a month ago his wall came crashing down and we realized that he was long overdue for help.  he started meds (cipramil) over a month ago and will begin cognitive therapy next month (all psychiatrists in europe seem to take the entire summer off).  so there is now the beginning of a structure in place to support him. for me this is a bit tough in terms of understanding how to react/what to do/ what not to do – not only because its new.  he rollercoasters from motivation and a sense of strength that he is taking charge of his life to crushing, stay-in-bed, monosyllabic communication, bad headaches to emotionally numb withdrawal stare at the walls to disoriented mornings after nights of violent nightmares (though this last is not new).  in most of these modes he is not able to make any decisions including is he hungry, is he tired, does he want to do X (he just says yes to everything) – or he is completely withdrawn.  and in moments of clarity he says that there is nothing i can do except put my arms around him.  he gets a bit better with a nap during the day, but other than that he seems to be subject to a lot of unkind and unpredictable forces beyond his control. my questions are basically what else can i do – or we do, outside of the hug thing which although nice still leaves me feeling totally helpless…  and what kind of expectations can he/we have from therapy and drugs – and in what timeline? thanks, nan

Response:

Hi nan! > my partner was diagnosed with PTSD about 2 years ago following a life > threatening car crash and is only now beginning the process of getting > medical and psychological support for it.

                —————-snip—————- > in moments of clarity he says that there is nothing i can do except > put my arms around him.  he gets a bit better with a nap during the > day, but other than that he seems to be subject to a lot of unkind and > unpredictable forces beyond his control. > my questions are basically what else can i do – or we do, outside of > the hug thing which although nice still leaves me feeling totally > helpless…

1. Educate yourself about PTSD.  One place to start is the FAQ at: http://www.astpfaq.bravepages.com/index.html 2. Believe him when he says he needs a hug. Hugs IME are very helpful and powerful against PTSD. > and what kind of expectations can he/we have from therapy > and drugs – and in what timeline?

‘No expectations’ is the best way to go IMO.  IME some folks come out the other side rather quickly and others, like me, are still working on the ‘recovery’ bit after 14 years. It is very good that he only had 2 years before his ‘break’ IMO and that his break was in the new century, rather than the last.  There is treatment available now; ‘before’ they used to drug us ‘to the gills’ and leave us in padded rooms for the rest of our lives. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Hello Nan, learning is important an absolute both for you and your partner, individual and group therapy in combination with medications seems to offer the most. If there is a womans support group in your area I would join, here in the States there is a vet.wives club as an example.I know they do a lot of good work and support for each other, try to find one in your area, I wish you the best of luck and happiness in all things, Stay Healthy, John De

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"dj" <footpri…@theriver.com> wrote in news:ca9rca$5h1$0@216.39.134.199: > I did meds for awhile but they soon stopped my forward progress > as they numbed my brain so I couldn’t think.

A reason that I keep saying and keep saying……. PTSD *can* be treated without drugs. They should be used only as a very, *very* short term fix. [Stenorian Robotic Alarm Voice] "Step away from the drugs" — Peter Lucas Brisbane Australia Cry

"pugsley" <pugsley_…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:B%2rc.3227$2v1.4489@nasal.pacific.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:Vg2rc.17129$UH.3885@bignews2.bellsouth.net… > > "Marutchi" <marut…@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message > > news:rnbpa0tt9i362cruvbqi7gdsbedjjs83ie@4ax.com… > > > On Thu, 20 May 2004 09:05:45 -0400, "tinydancer" > > > <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote: > > > >"Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > > >news:JB1rc.15942$zO3.3089@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > > >> I’m sorry to hear of the trouble going on here with trolls. I am > coming > > in > > > >> the middle of this thing. All I can say is that in the support group > > that > > > >> I’ve started there is a ban feature to the group so that I can ban > > people > > > >if > > > >> necessary. I’m not worried that much about that however. For the most > > > >part, > > > >> from what I have seen, thus far, the conversations seem to be going > > okay. > > > >The only reason the conversations here are ‘going okay’ right now, is > > > >because the target of peter and pugsley’s wrath, Peter Lucas, is on > > > >vacation.  Peter Lucas, had been a regular here for some time, well > over > > a > > > >year.  The other peter and pugsley, along with some of their > ‘associates’ > > > >from alt.ozdebate, decided one day to come here and invade our group > > because > > > >they have a ‘dispute’ with Peter Lucas.  They were asked MANY  times to > > > >knock it off here, take it elsewhere, leave us out of it, and just > plain > > GO > > > >AWAY.  Their only reply to the rest of us was ‘get used to it because > as > > > >long as peter lucas posts here, they will stalk him.’  It didn’t matter > > to > > > >them that they were disrupting a long-standing support group.  If you > > want > > > >’em, you can have ‘em, but they won’t come to your group because their > > only > > > >mission is to stalk peter lucas.  We too can take our serious > discussions > > to > > > >a private place.  We hang around here so that newcomers and lurkers can > > get > > > >the help and support they so desperatly need.  But the regulars don’t > > > >interact with the TROLLS, it only feeds them. > > > >best to you, > > > >td > > > Is lying part of your treatment? > > > No one is stalking Lucas. A couple of misguided people may have tried > > > to warn certain members of your group on how Lucas is a trouble maker. > > Ah, another member of the peanut gallery heard from.  Just proves my > point, > > when the trolls are told to leave us alone, they go straight to oz to call > > up reinforcements once again.  No one even knew ‘oz’ existed before your > > invasion here.  You ‘warned’ us that a regular poster we’d never had any > > trouble with here, was a trouble-maker.  Sort of ironic, isn’t it, and > quite > > hypocritical to say the least.  A whole battalion of TROUBLE MAKERS storm > > into a functioning support group, to warn us against someone *we’d* not > had > > a bit of trouble with.  And warned us and warned us and warned us, until > > finally even the lurkers here came out of the shadows to tell you all to > > piss off. > td, don’t you want this encourage membership to this group? > More members means more life stories…..more change to learn. > pugs

Members who come here to cause disruption, NO.  We take our ‘talk’ elsewhere when that happens, so you see, all you’ve done is harm to the newcomers and lurkers.  I hope they appreciate that and thank you for it. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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"pugsley" <pugsley_…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:x%2rc.3224$2v1.4479@nasal.pacific.net.au… > "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:%t0rc.8927$YB6.6231@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > > "Peter" <wav…@the.fans> wrote in message > > news:MPG.1b16e041437d6a1a989833@news-server…

snipped> > – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Nobody asked you troll-boy.  In fact, the only thing you *were asked*, > along > > with pugsley, numerous times,  was to take argument with Peter Lucas > > elsewhere, of which you refused.  You and pugsley EARNED your reputations > > here as TROLLS. > > PETER AND PUGSLEY are from  alt.ozdebate and are TROLLS in > > alt.support.trauma-ptsd.  The REGULARS here don’t reply to them, ignore > > them, know them for their true  purpose  here, to DISRUPT this group and > > it’s regular posters. > > td > I’m not going to argue with you td, nor am I going attack your friend > (Lucas) again. > I am not going to try and disrupt this group either. > What I share about myself in here is the truth. > Like I Identify with some of the new members. > As for peter Mackay, I haven’t met him and there is no secret plan between > Mackay and I to disrupt this group. > Besides it would be stupid for me to do that. I have too much to lose. There > are now laws in Australia about cyberspace stalking. > I correspond with peter Mackay in a couple of other groups, that is all > there is to it. > Pugs

Ya know what pugs, if you’d come here in peace you would have been accepted just as anyone else who ventures in looking for support is.  But you didn’t. Your sole purpose in coming here was to stalk Peter Lucas.  But the real telling point was "when you were asked to stop it"  "asked by numerous regular posters here"  you didn’t.  It was pointed out to all of you that this was a SUPPORT GROUP, but that didn’t seem to matter to you and yours. You continued your disruption of the group.  You can post here all you want. People come and people go from this group, but there is a core group of posters who’ve been trying to assist newcomers for years now, and I doubt very much they will ever trust anything you have to say here.  Many of us have long-standing relationships with each other, email, talk on the phone, have developed true friendships.  This group has never been about dissent until your crew arrived.  One thing about PTSD survivors, trust is and always has been an issue with us.  You not only didn’t earn our trust, you betrayed us and continue to do so. td – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

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"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:%t0rc.8927$YB6.6231@bignews3.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Peter" <wav…@the.fans> wrote in message > news:MPG.1b16e041437d6a1a989833@news-server… > > In article <2dWqc.1112$Sc….@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, > > tinydan…@nowhere.com says… > > > So let me see, you claim to suffer from PTSD, yet when you were asked by > > > many posters and even some lurkers here to knock off the crap, told you > were > > > upsetting them, distressing them, that meant absolutely nothing to you. > You > > > continued to post your crap here, unabated, in a group with ’support’ in > the > > > title… > > <snip more in the same vein> > > Uh, td, THIS is a group with "support" in the title, and you are being > > anything but supportive. In fact you aren’t being very sensitive at all, > > because it looks like you are doing exactly what you accuse others of. > > Please take the time to reflect before you post and if you need help and > > support, you have only to ask for it. > Nobody asked you troll-boy.  In fact, the only thing you *were asked*, along > with pugsley, numerous times,  was to take argument with Peter Lucas > elsewhere, of which you refused.  You and pugsley EARNED your reputations > here as TROLLS. > PETER AND PUGSLEY are from  alt.ozdebate and are TROLLS in > alt.support.trauma-ptsd.  The REGULARS here don’t reply to them, ignore > them, know them for their true  purpose  here, to DISRUPT this group and > it’s regular posters. > td

I’m not going to argue with you td, nor am I going attack your friend (Lucas) again. I am not going to try and disrupt this group either. What I share about myself in here is the truth. Like I Identify with some of the new members. As for peter Mackay, I haven’t met him and there is no secret plan between Mackay and I to disrupt this group. Besides it would be stupid for me to do that. I have too much to lose. There are now laws in Australia about cyberspace stalking. I correspond with peter Mackay in a couple of other groups, that is all there is to it. Pugs

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"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:Vg2rc.17129$UH.3885@bignews2.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Marutchi" <marut…@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message > news:rnbpa0tt9i362cruvbqi7gdsbedjjs83ie@4ax.com… > > On Thu, 20 May 2004 09:05:45 -0400, "tinydancer" > > <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote: > > >"Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > >news:JB1rc.15942$zO3.3089@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > >> I’m sorry to hear of the trouble going on here with trolls. I am coming > in > > >> the middle of this thing. All I can say is that in the support group > that > > >> I’ve started there is a ban feature to the group so that I can ban > people > > >if > > >> necessary. I’m not worried that much about that however. For the most > > >part, > > >> from what I have seen, thus far, the conversations seem to be going > okay. > > >The only reason the conversations here are ‘going okay’ right now, is > > >because the target of peter and pugsley’s wrath, Peter Lucas, is on > > >vacation.  Peter Lucas, had been a regular here for some time, well over > a > > >year.  The other peter and pugsley, along with some of their ‘associates’ > > >from alt.ozdebate, decided one day to come here and invade our group > because > > >they have a ‘dispute’ with Peter Lucas.  They were asked MANY  times to > > >knock it off here, take it elsewhere, leave us out of it, and just plain > GO > > >AWAY.  Their only reply to the rest of us was ‘get used to it because as > > >long as peter lucas posts here, they will stalk him.’  It didn’t matter > to > > >them that they were disrupting a long-standing support group.  If you > want > > >’em, you can have ‘em, but they won’t come to your group because their > only > > >mission is to stalk peter lucas.  We too can take our serious discussions > to > > >a private place.  We hang around here so that newcomers and lurkers can > get > > >the help and support they so desperatly need.  But the regulars don’t > > >interact with the TROLLS, it only feeds them. > > >best to you, > > >td > > Is lying part of your treatment? > > No one is stalking Lucas. A couple of misguided people may have tried > > to warn certain members of your group on how Lucas is a trouble maker. > Ah, another member of the peanut gallery heard from.  Just proves my point, > when the trolls are told to leave us alone, they go straight to oz to call > up reinforcements once again.  No one even knew ‘oz’ existed before your > invasion here.  You ‘warned’ us that a regular poster we’d never had any > trouble with here, was a trouble-maker.  Sort of ironic, isn’t it, and quite > hypocritical to say the least.  A whole battalion of TROUBLE MAKERS storm > into a functioning support group, to warn us against someone *we’d* not had > a bit of trouble with.  And warned us and warned us and warned us, until > finally even the lurkers here came out of the shadows to tell you all to > piss off.

td, don’t you want this encourage membership to this group? More members means more life stories…..more change to learn. pugs

Response:

I’m  sorry td for the troubles that you went through in finding a good therapist. I’m glad that you finally found one. Good on you for that. A good marriage is one that takes a lot of work. You have been together a long time. That’s great. My wife and I have been together now for ten years and counting. We’re really happy. I wish you and your husband well as I do to Mike. I hope you all find peace and happiness in the new year. — Take care and be well always … Mickey Maschke The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ My Personal Web Site: http://windgate.info/ "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:%eTqc.5816$l%4.4989@bignews4.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mike" <morrison_…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:a1da2831.0405191455.7099a8a7@posting.google.com… > > It totally destroyed my marriage. We were together over 20 > > years, married for twelve. She just didn’t understand my > > symptoms – hypervigilance, insomnia, deep depression. anxiety. > > Either did I. Poor – very poor – treatment didn’t help either. > > It didn’t help that when I was at my worst she didn’t > > come with me to the dr. > > We are separated and I am always sad. > > This was after an auto accident where I was broadsided by some careless > > asshole who ran a red light. > > m > Sorry to hear that Mike.  A good therapist is a must.  The first one I had > nearly caused us a divorce.  The few times my husband went with me to a > session, we came out so hostile to each other, it’s amazing we made it. > Finally my husband told me "I’m not going back to see this guy again, if you > want to see him, that’s your choice, but I don’t want to talk to him again. > I think if we keeping talking to him, we’ll either divorce or kill each > other."  Everything this therapist said and did was so counter-productive to > our well-being as a couple.  I quit therapy for a year, my condition > deteriorated significantly.  I finally realized ‘yes I needed therapy, but I > needed a different therapist to try with again.’  I was surprised my husband > agreed to see the ‘new guy’ with me, after I’d been seeing him for awhile. > I told dh, ‘this guy is way different from the last one.’  So he came to a > session with me.  And when ever we go together now, we always come out arm > in arm.  We have a long time commitment to each other, dh and I.  We’ve been > married since I was 18 yrs. old. > Is there any chance the separation can be worked on Mike?  I hope you are > recovered from you physical injuries due to the accident?  Would it be > possible to talk with your wife, now that you’ve found our group?  Perhaps > discussing how common marital problems are with PTSD, and how helpful and > important it is to have some couples sessions? > best, > td > > richardj…@hotmail.com (jgd1128) wrote in message > <news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com>… > > > Happy Tuesday all > > > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > > > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > > > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > > > how did you overcome it. > > > Any advice would help > > > thanks > > > rj

Response:

"Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:JB1rc.15942$zO3.3089@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > I’m sorry to hear of the trouble going on here with trolls. I am coming in > the middle of this thing. All I can say is that in the support group that > I’ve started there is a ban feature to the group so that I can ban people if > necessary. I’m not worried that much about that however. For the most part, > from what I have seen, thus far, the conversations seem to be going okay.

The only reason the conversations here are ‘going okay’ right now, is because the target of peter and pugsley’s wrath, Peter Lucas, is on vacation.  Peter Lucas, had been a regular here for some time, well over a year.  The other peter and pugsley, along with some of their ‘associates’ from alt.ozdebate, decided one day to come here and invade our group because they have a ‘dispute’ with Peter Lucas.  They were asked MANY  times to knock it off here, take it elsewhere, leave us out of it, and just plain GO AWAY.  Their only reply to the rest of us was ‘get used to it because as long as peter lucas posts here, they will stalk him.’  It didn’t matter to them that they were disrupting a long-standing support group.  If you want ‘em, you can have ‘em, but they won’t come to your group because their only mission is to stalk peter lucas.  We too can take our serious discussions to a private place.  We hang around here so that newcomers and lurkers can get the help and support they so desperatly need.  But the regulars don’t interact with the TROLLS, it only feeds them. best to you, td – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m sorry for the dispute that is going on, and I’m sorry if I had any part > in causing it. > And anyone who wants to join The Moon List can join it. It’s open to the > public. > — > Take care and be well always … > Mickey Maschke > The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ > My Personal Web Site: http://windgate.info/ > "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:%t0rc.8927$YB6.6231@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > > "Peter" <wav…@the.fans> wrote in message > > news:MPG.1b16e041437d6a1a989833@news-server… > > > In article <2dWqc.1112$Sc….@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, > > > tinydan…@nowhere.com says… > > > > So let me see, you claim to suffer from PTSD, yet when you were asked > by > > > > many posters and even some lurkers here to knock off the crap, told > you > > were > > > > upsetting them, distressing them, that meant absolutely nothing to > you. > > You > > > > continued to post your crap here, unabated, in a group with ’support’ > in > > the > > > > title… > > > <snip more in the same vein> > > > Uh, td, THIS is a group with "support" in the title, and you are being > > > anything but supportive. In fact you aren’t being very sensitive at all, > > > because it looks like you are doing exactly what you accuse others of. > > > Please take the time to reflect before you post and if you need help and > > > support, you have only to ask for it. > > Nobody asked you troll-boy.  In fact, the only thing you *were asked*, > along > > with pugsley, numerous times,  was to take argument with Peter Lucas > > elsewhere, of which you refused.  You and pugsley EARNED your reputations > > here as TROLLS. > > PETER AND PUGSLEY are from  alt.ozdebate and are TROLLS in > > alt.support.trauma-ptsd.  The REGULARS here don’t reply to them, ignore > > them, know them for their true  purpose  here, to DISRUPT this group and > > it’s regular posters. > > td

Response:

Thank you Mickey, I wish the same for you and your wife.  PTSD, or any mental disorder, can be very hard on those around us.  I think it takes a special commitment, a special bond, to keep you together.  It involves a lot of work and understanding on the part of your partner and yourself.  But once you attain that level, life at home becomes much easier because the two of you are working together, rather than at odds with each other.  We here are at all levels of treatment/recovery, and most posters have commented that ‘it’s good to hear there is hope at the end of the long dark tunnel’ of recovery.  It’s good to hear from folks who’ve ‘been there, done that’ and truly understand. I too take medication to treat my Major Depression/PTSD/DID diagnosis and have found that, for me, sleep medication has been a great help with the nightmares and night terrors.  It’s hard enough to go through the days and nights, but trying to do it without any rest was so much harder.  I’m on zoloft, xanax, and ambien.  The combination works for me.  But it was a long road to find the right combinations of medication in the proper dosages. I wish you and your wife the very best, glad to see you’ve found a life-partner. td "Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:5F1rc.15947$zO3.3454@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I’m  sorry td for the troubles that you went through in finding a good > therapist. I’m glad that you finally found one. Good on you for that. A good > marriage is one that takes a lot of work. You have been together a long > time. That’s great. My wife and I have been together now for ten years and > counting. We’re really happy. I wish you and your husband well as I do to > Mike. I hope you all find peace and happiness in the new year. > — > Take care and be well always … > Mickey Maschke > The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ > My Personal Web Site: http://windgate.info/ > "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:%eTqc.5816$l%4.4989@bignews4.bellsouth.net… > > "Mike" <morrison_…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > news:a1da2831.0405191455.7099a8a7@posting.google.com… > > > It totally destroyed my marriage. We were together over 20 > > > years, married for twelve. She just didn’t understand my > > > symptoms – hypervigilance, insomnia, deep depression. anxiety. > > > Either did I. Poor – very poor – treatment didn’t help either. > > > It didn’t help that when I was at my worst she didn’t > > > come with me to the dr. > > > We are separated and I am always sad. > > > This was after an auto accident where I was broadsided by some careless > > > asshole who ran a red light. > > > m > > Sorry to hear that Mike.  A good therapist is a must.  The first one I had > > nearly caused us a divorce.  The few times my husband went with me to a > > session, we came out so hostile to each other, it’s amazing we made it. > > Finally my husband told me "I’m not going back to see this guy again, if > you > > want to see him, that’s your choice, but I don’t want to talk to him > again. > > I think if we keeping talking to him, we’ll either divorce or kill each > > other."  Everything this therapist said and did was so counter-productive > to > > our well-being as a couple.  I quit therapy for a year, my condition > > deteriorated significantly.  I finally realized ‘yes I needed therapy, but > I > > needed a different therapist to try with again.’  I was surprised my > husband > > agreed to see the ‘new guy’ with me, after I’d been seeing him for awhile. > > I told dh, ‘this guy is way different from the last one.’  So he came to a > > session with me.  And when ever we go together now, we always come out arm > > in arm.  We have a long time commitment to each other, dh and I.  We’ve > been > > married since I was 18 yrs. old. > > Is there any chance the separation can be worked on Mike?  I hope you are > > recovered from you physical injuries due to the accident?  Would it be > > possible to talk with your wife, now that you’ve found our group? Perhaps > > discussing how common marital problems are with PTSD, and how helpful and > > important it is to have some couples sessions? > > best, > > td > > > richardj…@hotmail.com (jgd1128) wrote in message > > <news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com>… > > > > Happy Tuesday all > > > > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > > > > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > > > > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > > > > how did you overcome it. > > > > Any advice would help > > > > thanks > > > > rj

Response:

"Marutchi" <marut…@REMOVEhotmail.com> wrote in message

news:rnbpa0tt9i362cruvbqi7gdsbedjjs83ie@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Thu, 20 May 2004 09:05:45 -0400, "tinydancer" > <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote: > >"Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > >news:JB1rc.15942$zO3.3089@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > >> I’m sorry to hear of the trouble going on here with trolls. I am coming in > >> the middle of this thing. All I can say is that in the support group that > >> I’ve started there is a ban feature to the group so that I can ban people > >if > >> necessary. I’m not worried that much about that however. For the most > >part, > >> from what I have seen, thus far, the conversations seem to be going okay. > >The only reason the conversations here are ‘going okay’ right now, is > >because the target of peter and pugsley’s wrath, Peter Lucas, is on > >vacation.  Peter Lucas, had been a regular here for some time, well over a > >year.  The other peter and pugsley, along with some of their ‘associates’ > >from alt.ozdebate, decided one day to come here and invade our group because > >they have a ‘dispute’ with Peter Lucas.  They were asked MANY  times to > >knock it off here, take it elsewhere, leave us out of it, and just plain GO > >AWAY.  Their only reply to the rest of us was ‘get used to it because as > >long as peter lucas posts here, they will stalk him.’  It didn’t matter to > >them that they were disrupting a long-standing support group.  If you want > >’em, you can have ‘em, but they won’t come to your group because their only > >mission is to stalk peter lucas.  We too can take our serious discussions to > >a private place.  We hang around here so that newcomers and lurkers can get > >the help and support they so desperatly need.  But the regulars don’t > >interact with the TROLLS, it only feeds them. > >best to you, > >td > Is lying part of your treatment? > No one is stalking Lucas. A couple of misguided people may have tried > to warn certain members of your group on how Lucas is a trouble maker.

Ah, another member of the peanut gallery heard from.  Just proves my point, when the trolls are told to leave us alone, they go straight to oz to call up reinforcements once again.  No one even knew ‘oz’ existed before your invasion here.  You ‘warned’ us that a regular poster we’d never had any trouble with here, was a trouble-maker.  Sort of ironic, isn’t it, and quite hypocritical to say the least.  A whole battalion of TROUBLE MAKERS storm into a functioning support group, to warn us against someone *we’d* not had a bit of trouble with.  And warned us and warned us and warned us, until finally even the lurkers here came out of the shadows to tell you all to piss off.

Response:

"Peter" <wav…@the.fans> wrote in message

news:MPG.1b16e041437d6a1a989833@news-server… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <2dWqc.1112$Sc….@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, > tinydan…@nowhere.com says… > > So let me see, you claim to suffer from PTSD, yet when you were asked by > > many posters and even some lurkers here to knock off the crap, told you were > > upsetting them, distressing them, that meant absolutely nothing to you. You > > continued to post your crap here, unabated, in a group with ’support’ in the > > title… > <snip more in the same vein> > Uh, td, THIS is a group with "support" in the title, and you are being > anything but supportive. In fact you aren’t being very sensitive at all, > because it looks like you are doing exactly what you accuse others of. > Please take the time to reflect before you post and if you need help and > support, you have only to ask for it.

Nobody asked you troll-boy.  In fact, the only thing you *were asked*, along with pugsley, numerous times,  was to take argument with Peter Lucas elsewhere, of which you refused.  You and pugsley EARNED your reputations here as TROLLS. PETER AND PUGSLEY are from  alt.ozdebate and are TROLLS in alt.support.trauma-ptsd.  The REGULARS here don’t reply to them, ignore them, know them for their true  purpose  here, to DISRUPT this group and it’s regular posters. td

Response:

Right. I get daymares, nightmares, death dreams, and all sorts of stuff popping everyday. I know what you mean. I take three meds to control my PTSD and other illnesses, and then I take one med for my  cholesterol, and something for my breathing problem. I never thought I would end up being this dependent on meds in my life. But here I am. LOL. — Take care and be well always … Mickey Maschke The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ My Personal Web Site: http://windgate.info/ "pugsley" <pugsley_…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:caWqc.2474$2v1.3901@nasal.pacific.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:Y2Tqc.5600$YB6.1538@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > > "Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > news:zUSqc.21792$KE6.5191@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > snipped>:L > > . If you need a friend, I’m learning that this group is a good place to > > > be. > > Just so long as you don’t feed the trolls.  If you feed ‘em, ya gotta take > > ‘em home.  Once their ‘prey’ gets back from his holiday, you’ll see what I > > mean. > > td > > Troll list: > > Peter > > pugsley aka ‘pugs’ > I have to admit I was outraged when I read in here that Peter Lucas claimed > to suffer from PSTD. > Although I still believe he has an ulterior motive for claiming to have > PSTD, I have dismissed him from my mind. > However I reinstate that I’m glad he blazed the trail to here. > You see before posting here I was under the impression that only battle > fatigued soldiers suffered PTSD. > As I was in an almost constant state of panic for twenty years I abused > alcohol, tranquilizers, and hoping to escape panic attacks, I went to work > in remote places. > I have to say, though it doesn’t really matter now, through this group I > found that I had suffered PTSD. > Although my life has turned around, I still experience some of the symptoms, > like nightmares & flashbacks. > pugs

Response:

I’m sorry to hear of the trouble going on here with trolls. I am coming in the middle of this thing. All I can say is that in the support group that I’ve started there is a ban feature to the group so that I can ban people if necessary. I’m not worried that much about that however. For the most part, from what I have seen, thus far, the conversations seem to be going okay. I’m sorry for the dispute that is going on, and I’m sorry if I had any part in causing it. And anyone who wants to join The Moon List can join it. It’s open to the public. — Take care and be well always … Mickey Maschke The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ My Personal Web Site: http://windgate.info/ "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:%t0rc.8927$YB6.6231@bignews3.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Peter" <wav…@the.fans> wrote in message > news:MPG.1b16e041437d6a1a989833@news-server… > > In article <2dWqc.1112$Sc….@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, > > tinydan…@nowhere.com says… > > > So let me see, you claim to suffer from PTSD, yet when you were asked by > > > many posters and even some lurkers here to knock off the crap, told you > were > > > upsetting them, distressing them, that meant absolutely nothing to you. > You > > > continued to post your crap here, unabated, in a group with ’support’ in > the > > > title… > > <snip more in the same vein> > > Uh, td, THIS is a group with "support" in the title, and you are being > > anything but supportive. In fact you aren’t being very sensitive at all, > > because it looks like you are doing exactly what you accuse others of. > > Please take the time to reflect before you post and if you need help and > > support, you have only to ask for it. > Nobody asked you troll-boy.  In fact, the only thing you *were asked*, along > with pugsley, numerous times,  was to take argument with Peter Lucas > elsewhere, of which you refused.  You and pugsley EARNED your reputations > here as TROLLS. > PETER AND PUGSLEY are from  alt.ozdebate and are TROLLS in > alt.support.trauma-ptsd.  The REGULARS here don’t reply to them, ignore > them, know them for their true  purpose  here, to DISRUPT this group and > it’s regular posters. > td

Response:

"tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:Y2Tqc.5600$YB6.1538@bignews3.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:zUSqc.21792$KE6.5191@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… > snipped>:L > . If you need a friend, I’m learning that this group is a good place to > > be. > Just so long as you don’t feed the trolls.  If you feed ‘em, ya gotta take > ‘em home.  Once their ‘prey’ gets back from his holiday, you’ll see what I > mean. > td > Troll list: > Peter > pugsley aka ‘pugs’

I have to admit I was outraged when I read in here that Peter Lucas claimed to suffer from PSTD. Although I still believe he has an ulterior motive for claiming to have PSTD, I have dismissed him from my mind. However I reinstate that I’m glad he blazed the trail to here. You see before posting here I was under the impression that only battle fatigued soldiers suffered PTSD. As I was in an almost constant state of panic for twenty years I abused alcohol, tranquilizers, and hoping to escape panic attacks, I went to work in remote places. I have to say, though it doesn’t really matter now, through this group I found that I had suffered PTSD. Although my life has turned around, I still experience some of the symptoms, like nightmares & flashbacks. pugs

Response:

"pugsley" <pugsley_…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:caWqc.2474$2v1.3901@nasal.pacific.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message > news:Y2Tqc.5600$YB6.1538@bignews3.bellsouth.net… > > "Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > > news:zUSqc.21792$KE6.5191@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > snipped>:L > > . If you need a friend, I’m learning that this group is a good place to > > > be. > > Just so long as you don’t feed the trolls.  If you feed ‘em, ya gotta take > > ‘em home.  Once their ‘prey’ gets back from his holiday, you’ll see what I > > mean. > > td > > Troll list: > > Peter > > pugsley aka ‘pugs’ > I have to admit I was outraged when I read in here that Peter Lucas claimed > to suffer from PSTD. > Although I still believe he has an ulterior motive for claiming to have > PSTD, I have dismissed him from my mind. > However I reinstate that I’m glad he blazed the trail to here. > You see before posting here I was under the impression that only battle > fatigued soldiers suffered PTSD. > As I was in an almost constant state of panic for twenty years I abused > alcohol, tranquilizers, and hoping to escape panic attacks, I went to work > in remote places. > I have to say, though it doesn’t really matter now, through this group I > found that I had suffered PTSD. > Although my life has turned around, I still experience some of the symptoms, > like nightmares & flashbacks. > pugs

So let me see, you claim to suffer from PTSD, yet when you were asked by many posters and even some lurkers here to knock off the crap, told you were upsetting them, distressing them, that meant absolutely nothing to you.  You continued to post your crap here, unabated, in a group with ’support’ in the title,  and besides that, you took posts over to oz, made snide remarks about us there.  Yeah, you’re a real PTSD sufferer alright.  Did you also happen to notice that when you or your buddy post here, nobody else, none of the other regulars post?  You are like the plague.  Tell ya what, go on over to Mickey’s group and join up.  Let them listen to your lies.   Disrupt their lives for awhile.  Stir up shit with their PTSD group.  See how much they like you. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text –

Response:

In article <2dWqc.1112$Sc….@bignews1.bellsouth.net>, tinydan…@nowhere.com says… > So let me see, you claim to suffer from PTSD, yet when you were asked by > many posters and even some lurkers here to knock off the crap, told you were > upsetting them, distressing them, that meant absolutely nothing to you.  You > continued to post your crap here, unabated, in a group with ’support’ in the > title…

<snip more in the same vein> Uh, td, THIS is a group with "support" in the title, and you are being anything but supportive. In fact you aren’t being very sensitive at all, because it looks like you are doing exactly what you accuse others of. Please take the time to reflect before you post and if you need help and support, you have only to ask for it.

Response:

I’m sorry M. I’m really sorry that things didn’t work out for you. It sounds like you really need a good woman to stand by you. That’s what I found. But what I haven’t said is that it took me five marriages to find my wife, and it took me years and years of searching. We’ve been married now for ten years, and are happy. You will find someone. We all do at some point in our lives. If you need a friend, I’m learning that this group is a good place to be. — Take care and be well always … Mickey Maschke The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ My Personal Web Site: http://windgate.info/ "Mike" <morrison_…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:a1da2831.0405191455.7099a8a7@posting.google.com… > It totally destroyed my marriage. We were together over 20 > years, married for twelve. She just didn’t understand my > symptoms – hypervigilance, insomnia, deep depression. anxiety. > Either did I. Poor – very poor – treatment didn’t help either. > It didn’t help that when I was at my worst she didn’t > come with me to the dr. > We are separated and I am always sad. > This was after an auto accident where I was broadsided by some careless > asshole who ran a red light. > m > richardj…@hotmail.com (jgd1128) wrote in message

<news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Happy Tuesday all > > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > > how did you overcome it. > > Any advice would help > > thanks > > rj

Response:

"Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:zUSqc.21792$KE6.5191@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net… snipped>:L . If you need a friend, I’m learning that this group is a good place to > be.

Just so long as you don’t feed the trolls.  If you feed ‘em, ya gotta take ‘em home.  Once their ‘prey’ gets back from his holiday, you’ll see what I mean. td Troll list: Peter pugsley aka ‘pugs’

Response:

"Mike" <morrison_…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:a1da2831.0405191455.7099a8a7@posting.google.com… > It totally destroyed my marriage. We were together over 20 > years, married for twelve. She just didn’t understand my > symptoms – hypervigilance, insomnia, deep depression. anxiety. > Either did I. Poor – very poor – treatment didn’t help either. > It didn’t help that when I was at my worst she didn’t > come with me to the dr. > We are separated and I am always sad. > This was after an auto accident where I was broadsided by some careless > asshole who ran a red light. > m

Sorry to hear that Mike.  A good therapist is a must.  The first one I had nearly caused us a divorce.  The few times my husband went with me to a session, we came out so hostile to each other, it’s amazing we made it. Finally my husband told me "I’m not going back to see this guy again, if you want to see him, that’s your choice, but I don’t want to talk to him again. I think if we keeping talking to him, we’ll either divorce or kill each other."  Everything this therapist said and did was so counter-productive to our well-being as a couple.  I quit therapy for a year, my condition deteriorated significantly.  I finally realized ‘yes I needed therapy, but I needed a different therapist to try with again.’  I was surprised my husband agreed to see the ‘new guy’ with me, after I’d been seeing him for awhile. I told dh, ‘this guy is way different from the last one.’  So he came to a session with me.  And when ever we go together now, we always come out arm in arm.  We have a long time commitment to each other, dh and I.  We’ve been married since I was 18 yrs. old. Is there any chance the separation can be worked on Mike?  I hope you are recovered from you physical injuries due to the accident?  Would it be possible to talk with your wife, now that you’ve found our group?  Perhaps discussing how common marital problems are with PTSD, and how helpful and important it is to have some couples sessions? best, td > richardj…@hotmail.com (jgd1128) wrote in message

<news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Happy Tuesday all > > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > > how did you overcome it. > > Any advice would help > > thanks > > rj

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"jgd1128" <richardj…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com… > Happy Tuesday all > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > how did you overcome it. > Any advice would help > thanks > rj

It helped a great deal for my husband to attend some of my therapy sessions with me.  My therapist is very good at helping dh to understand what’s going on with me, and giving him advice, tips, etc., on what to say, how to help, and that it’s not up to dh to ‘fix me’.  And that sometimes it’s best to just listen to me, a sort of validation, and then hold me close.  Once we began ‘working together’ on this, dh and me, things improved quite dramatically.  When ever I hit a spot where therapist or I think it might be a good idea once again, I take dh in for a ‘tune up’ session.  ;-)   It works for us, and we’ve been happily married for well over 30 years now. Our sex life is quite good.  :) td

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Glad to hear that. My wife does somewhat the same thing. She feeds information to my therapist and that helps him know better how to handle me and what’s going on with me. But I’m the one that’s in therapy, she just puts in her perspective. We still have sex, just not quite as often. We’ve been happily married though for 10 years and counting. Take care and be well always … Mickey "tinydancer" <tinydan…@nowhere.com> wrote in message

news:i6sqc.1126$YB6.139@bignews3.bellsouth.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "jgd1128" <richardj…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com… > > Happy Tuesday all > > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > > how did you overcome it. > > Any advice would help > > thanks > > rj > It helped a great deal for my husband to attend some of my therapy sessions > with me.  My therapist is very good at helping dh to understand what’s going > on with me, and giving him advice, tips, etc., on what to say, how to help, > and that it’s not up to dh to ‘fix me’.  And that sometimes it’s best to > just listen to me, a sort of validation, and then hold me close.  Once we > began ‘working together’ on this, dh and me, things improved quite > dramatically.  When ever I hit a spot where therapist or I think it might be > a good idea once again, I take dh in for a ‘tune up’ session.  ;-)   It > works for us, and we’ve been happily married for well over 30 years now. > Our sex life is quite good.  :) > td

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"jgd1128" <richardj…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com… > Happy Tuesday all > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > how did you overcome it. > Any advice would help > thanks > rj

My wife is the very rational. She understands physical illnesses more than mental illnesses. Like she thinks that something physical has to cause mental illnesses. e.g. she understands schizophrenia because it is a physical change in the brain. As for PTSD, she doesn’t understand it at all. She is incapable of understanding how events can affect the mind. Her view is, ‘be strong and get over it.’ We will have been married for thirty years in October and I have come to understand that she is incapable of understanding mental illness. Although I love her dearly sometimes I feel very alone with my feelings. But she has not had it easy with me either. I spent long periods of time working away from home in isolated places—-I send money back, but I guess it isn’t the same.  Now we are both in a transitional period. She is also a Nurse and works four nights.  I work afternoons and nights. Hopefully we will come out of this wiser and stronger. I have recently found that I fear being alone at nights. I don’t mind being alone if someone is close by. Oh don’t get me wrong, my wife isn’t a hard person, in fact she is very loving and is a great mother to our adult kids and granddaughter. We have entirely different personalities—–as the old saying goes, opposites are attracted to each other. pugs

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"Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message

news:MQrqc.13847$zO3.3627@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> My wife and I are very close. We just aren’t that close sexually anymore. > I’m 53 and she’s 52. She’s going through the life change for her. And with > me, it’s the meds that I’m on that interferes with my activity. But my wife > and I cope really very well. We have arguments every now and then, but our > love is stronger than our arguments. So it’s not a problem. We’re going to > be together for the rest of our lives. You just have to decide that for > yourself. Once you do, the rest is easy. If I can be of any help, please let > me know. I have PTSD and have had it now for 20 years, plus some other stuff > going on. > Take care and be well always… > Mickey Maschke > http://windgate.info

[snip] I reckon its natural for couples to become less sexually active as they get older. Making love is more than just sex isn’t it. I’m 55 and my wife is 52. pugs

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That’s right. We snuggle a lot of the time, which is just as good as sex. We’re both slowing down a bit. And I know that I’m fighting the meds that I take to get any sex drive at all. But I have to take the meds or I’ll lose it. LOL. It’s just one of those catch 22’s. But we love each other so very much, and that’s what really counts. All I want is to die in her arms. If I get that, then I’ll be happy. — Take care and be well always … Mickey Maschke The Moon List: http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/themoonlist/ ".pugsley." <pugsley_…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:TvHqc.1726$2v1.3244@nasal.pacific.net.au… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "Mickey Maschke" <mickeymasc…@earthlink.net> wrote in message > news:MQrqc.13847$zO3.3627@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net… > > My wife and I are very close. We just aren’t that close sexually anymore. > > I’m 53 and she’s 52. She’s going through the life change for her. And with > > me, it’s the meds that I’m on that interferes with my activity. But my > wife > > and I cope really very well. We have arguments every now and then, but our > > love is stronger than our arguments. So it’s not a problem. We’re going to > > be together for the rest of our lives. You just have to decide that for > > yourself. Once you do, the rest is easy. If I can be of any help, please > let > > me know. I have PTSD and have had it now for 20 years, plus some other > stuff > > going on. > > Take care and be well always… > > Mickey Maschke > > http://windgate.info > [snip] > I reckon its natural for couples to become less sexually active as they get > older. > Making love is more than just sex isn’t it. > I’m 55 and my wife is 52. > pugs

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It totally destroyed my marriage. We were together over 20 years, married for twelve. She just didn’t understand my symptoms – hypervigilance, insomnia, deep depression. anxiety. Either did I. Poor – very poor – treatment didn’t help either. It didn’t help that when I was at my worst she didn’t come with me to the dr. We are separated and I am always sad. This was after an auto accident where I was broadsided by some careless asshole who ran a red light. m – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -richardj…@hotmail.com (jgd1128) wrote in message <news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com>… > Happy Tuesday all > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > how did you overcome it. > Any advice would help > thanks > rj

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Happy Tuesday all How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and how did you overcome it. Any advice would help thanks rj

Response:

My wife and I are very close. We just aren’t that close sexually anymore. I’m 53 and she’s 52. She’s going through the life change for her. And with me, it’s the meds that I’m on that interferes with my activity. But my wife and I cope really very well. We have arguments every now and then, but our love is stronger than our arguments. So it’s not a problem. We’re going to be together for the rest of our lives. You just have to decide that for yourself. Once you do, the rest is easy. If I can be of any help, please let me know. I have PTSD and have had it now for 20 years, plus some other stuff going on. Take care and be well always… Mickey Maschke http://windgate.info "jgd1128" <richardj…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:171daf58.0405180918.199177dd@posting.google.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Happy Tuesday all > How do spouses fit into the mix of healing? My husband and I are > having a terrible time coping. The closeness has died. My doctor says > it’s because of the PTSD. How long does it take to get over this and > how did you overcome it. > Any advice would help > thanks > rj

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