Question:
Hiya, Mags! I don’t think I’ve responded to you before. Nice to meet you! I don’t know if my words will be helpful, but at least I thought enough to respond, hey? 
(i’m feeling insecure lately) See ya below!!
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some things we came to understand this week have been tough. Just need to put some things outside to sort them out and eliminate some of the clutter inside. Going to spoiler here cuz I need to talk about some things that could be triggering to some, including some sp*r*tual vs. h*man ideas inside, triggers and dissing, system function etc. don’t know what else will come up in the process so be careful if you are in a vulnerable space kay. 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 Been dealing with much inside stuff regarding spiritual vs human. Please know that we do not expect anyone to believe as we do but just need to express these things to make sense of whats all inside.
BTW, afaik once you’ve spoilered, you needn’t splat. I do occasionally, but you’ve already warned folk you wanna talk spirituality…anyone likely to be triggered by "southern baptist" isn’t reading this! thinking that all evil/bad is of human origin. We were raised by sthrn b*bt*sts (a,i) and p*nt*c*stals so we have been b*ble thumped to death!!!!! To us these "teachings" and those of an organization we belonged to as a teen constitute RA! The idea that we could not question the w*ll of g*d (everything that happened to us was supposedly g*ds will according to these teachings) made the abuse all the more damaging cuz not only could we not tell anyone we couldn’t even tell ourself lest we burn in hell for questioning g*ds will! I really need to scream right now!! this shit make me livid, tears at my soul, makes my brain feel like it will explode!
Yuck. My ab*ser’s a northern baptist…very conservative…very devoted to religion. I am severely triggered by some hymns sung in my church. (’s ok…it helps in the end: he’s dying now and told me when i was 14 that he knows he’s going to hell when he dies. Maybe it’s mean, but I derive some satisfaction from knowing that he cannot enjoy his last days for terror of what’s to come.) On a different level: I started reading a self-help book once, and realized partway thru that it was religion-based, but I was already hooked and kept reading. When I finally talked to my T. abt it, I was a mess. He (not my current T.) helped me straighten out my head, then smiled gently and said "It’s ok: I’m a recovering Episcopalian too." I’ve always loved that phrase. It can clearly be changed to whatever faith is appropriate (hint, hint . On yet another level, my dearest friends are trying to explain to their 4 year old why he can’t have chicken soup on Fridays (they’re reasonably devout catholics). It makes me a little sad to see the cycle continue. I only hope that the little guy doesn’t grow up as guilt-ridden as his dad…. On a last level, I’m aware that my responses don’t address the rage you feel. I’m not really at a point where I can do that, but hopefully my scattered thoughts will hold some meaning for you. think the foo and others need to believe that their actions, bad evil actions are caused by something spiritual, that some *god* a singular entity can dictate their lives and mine so that they never have to take any responsibility for their choices.
*mmm-hmmm…mmm-hmmm!* that sounds about right. I have a degree as an addictions counselor, and that there’s a major stumbling block for some ppl getting clean and sober. I "read" people without even thinking abt it…analyzing their behaviors, figuring out their intentions, etc. (survival mechanism. my hubby can’t stand the way i drive, in part because i "read" other drivers’ intentions so much better than the hubby does that it looks to him like i’m driving unsafely. that, and i used to be a cab driver…;) One thing that’s easy to pick up on is when someone is *so scared* of what they think (or know) they’re capable of doing, that they need to clutch religion like a life-line. It’s very sad to see. Spirituality, belief in some higher power, etc., should imho be a source of comfort and serenity, and perhaps a guideline to suggest appropriate ways to act and react in the world. Well we have existed more on a spiritual plane than a human one for 42 years and have never encountered anything spiritual that was bad or evil, in fact we can see beyond the human and connect with the spirit of these abusers and see the good within even them.
that last bit is a toughie for me, too… My dad was physically abusive for much of my youth, and I mentioned it to him once after I’d attained my majority. He responded that he’d done the best he could with the tools he had available; meaning that he came from an abusive household and so lacked the ability to be a *good* parent, yet did everything he could to correct for his faults. He did a good job in some ways…a very good job. He instilled a love of learning, for example…making learning fun. Won’t go into too many details, but suffice it to say that it’s really, really hard to h*te(a) someone who tried, but not nearly hard enough. fwiw, I can hear my T. saying "You’re so loyal!" in a manner guaranteed to annoy… His point would be that on some level, I had to identify with my ab*sers – see things from their pov – in order to survive the ab*se. By that train of thought seeing good in one’s ab*ser(s) is a way of absolving them of guilt; of perpetuating the myth that one was somehow at fault for the ab*se. My T. and I use a kind of shorthand, so if the connections btwn the thoughts listed above aren’t clear, please let me know, and I’ll expound upon the theme (i’m in scholar right now (hence the less colloquial choices of words and sentence structure) so expounding on a theme would please me to no end! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – what triggered the dissing that triggered the dissing to yet a deeper level. The *b*se, s*xual, physical, mental emotional, spiritual, all of it came out of humaness, selfish, greedy, destructive human needs, drives, desires, emotions, expressions etc. this makes me shake inside. Something resonates through me, a question or comment the T posed last week regarding connections with people on a human level. Especiall hard is physical contact. prolly making little sense. Can never be safe to be amoung others so long as we are many, that was what pushed us inot seclusion a few years ago. The disconnecing within made us vulnerable to further ab*se. Hve tried to be out in the world but it is making things inside fall apart agian. tired, simply just tired, dont’ want to die just do not want to live this way no more. cannot stand the isolation, the loneliness but also cannot deal with human contact, feel like all there is to look forward to is when the spirit can be freee of bondage of this human existance.
I identify with that…su*cide stopped being a big issue for me once I recognized that I didn’t want to die; I just wanted to stop hurting… The disconnecting is itself a trigger. Say something said triggers me I start to disconnect, the disconnection taked us deeper into what has ben triggered cuz it is on that same plane, level whatever. this is partly what makes this feel so insurmountable and hopeless, this sort of rip-tide effect.
anxiety works like that…one realizes one is anxious, then gets anxious abt the fact that one is anxious. It seems to feed on itself. My T.’s metaphor for that feeling is to think of quicksand: If you get caught in quicksand, the natural reaction is to flail about, trying to get out, cuz it feels like yer gonna drown if you don’t. In reality, if you stop moving, you’ll float, thereby making it easier to get out of. I’m new to the dissociation thingy, so I’m still feeling my way, but I’d think the concept may be similar. What I do now when I start having an anxiety attack is to acknowledge the anxiety, then keep reminding myself that it’s ok to feel anxious. It’s ok to be where I’m at; I’ll be fine; this will pass. It doesn’t help with the original issue, but it stops what you’ve called the rip-tide effect. I don’t know for certain that triggering is an anxiety response at its root, but I think that applying the same concepts might be helpful to you. Worth a try, if nothing else…;) still fighting
keep on fighting… Mags
warmest wishes… dyenths
Response:
Some things we came to understand this week have been tough. Just need to put some things outside to sort them out and eliminate some of the clutter inside. Going to spoiler here cuz I need to talk about some things that could be triggering to some, including some sp*r*tual vs. h*man ideas inside, triggers and dissing, system function etc. don’t know what else will come up in the process so be careful if you are in a vulnerable space kay. 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 Been dealing with much inside stuff regarding spiritual vs human. Please know that we do not expect anyone to believe as we do but just need to express these things to make sense of whats all inside. thinking that all evil/bad is of human origin. We were raised by sthrn b*bt*sts (a,i) and p*nt*c*stals so we have been b*ble thumped to death!!!!! To us these "teachings" and those of an organization we belonged to as a teen constitute RA! The idea that we could not question the w*ll of g*d (everything that happened to us was supposedly g*ds will according to these teachings) made the abuse all the more damaging cuz not only could we not tell anyone we couldn’t even tell ourself lest we burn in hell for questioning g*ds will! I really need to scream right now!! this shit make me livid, tears at my soul, makes my brain feel like it will explode! think the foo and others need to believe that their actions, bad evil actions are caused by something spiritual, that some *god* a singular entity can dictate their lives and mine so that they never have to take any responsibility for their choices. Well we have existed more on a spiritual plane than a human one for 42 years and have never encountered anything spiritual that was bad or evil, in fact we can see beyond the human and connect with the spirit of these abusers and see the good within even them. what triggered the dissing that triggered the dissing to yet a deeper level. The *b*se, s*xual, physical, mental emotional, spiritual, all of it came out of humaness, selfish, greedy, destructive human needs, drives, desires, emotions, expressions etc. this makes me shake inside. Something resonates through me, a question or comment the T posed last week regarding connections with people on a human level. Especiall hard is physical contact. prolly making little sense. Can never be safe to be amoung others so long as we are many, that was what pushed us inot seclusion a few years ago. The disconnecing within made us vulnerable to further ab*se. Hve tried to be out in the world but it is making things inside fall apart agian. tired, simply just tired, dont’ want to die just do not want to live this way no more. cannot stand the isolation, the loneliness but also cannot deal with human contact, feel like all there is to look forward to is when the spirit can be freee of bondage of this human existance. The disconnecting is itself a trigger. Say something said triggers me I start to disconnect, the disconnection taked us deeper into what has ben triggered cuz it is on that same plane, level whatever. this is partly what makes this feel so insurmountable and hopeless, this sort of rip-tide effect. still fighting Mags
Response:
Mags, I am sorry to hear that you are feeling so much pain right now. What you describe certainly sounds like it constitutes RA, and I think this is a form of RA that doesn’t get enough recognition. It sounds like sp*rituality has been helpful for you once you found a healthier form of it. I am glad to hear that. I hope writing about this was helpful for you. Take care. -Nancy
Response:
dyenths, Just one short comment on something you said… big snip after the spoiler… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hiya, Mags! I don’t think I’ve responded to you before. Nice to meet you! I don’t know if my words will be helpful, but at least I thought enough to respond, hey? (i’m feeling insecure lately) See ya below!! Some things we came to understand this week have been tough. Just need to put some things outside to sort them out and eliminate some of the clutter inside. Going to spoiler here cuz I need to talk about some things that could be triggering to some, including some sp*r*tual vs. h*man ideas inside, triggers and dissing, system function etc. don’t know what else will come up in the process so be careful if you are in a vulnerable space kay. 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7
<snip On yet another level, my dearest friends are trying to explain to their 4 year old why he can’t have chicken soup on Fridays (they’re reasonably devout catholics). It makes me a little sad to see the cycle continue. I only hope that the little guy doesn’t grow up as guilt-ridden as his dad….
I am a mostly-practicing, mostly-contented Catholic. This kid can’t have chicken soup on Friday because his parents won’t let him. It has nothing to do with Canon Law. A) Nothing in Canon Law applies before the age of reason, which the kid is far too young to have reached; B) Dietary restrictions do not apply before the age of 12 or 14 (don’t remember which at the moment) and, in some cases, not even then. (There are many exceptions to dietary restrictions based on health, physically demanding labor, etc, etc.) If you think it might help, I’ll find the reference for these statements. Beyond that, it’s just absurd to expect that a child this age could benefit from this practice. The point of this (and many other religious practices) is to strengthen one’s relationship to God. It’s nonsensical to think that this kid could make the mental connections that underlie the recommendation for this practice. If they think that it is critical to get the kid into this habit, they should own the responsibility for it and not try to pass it off to the Church. They could make a game out of it. "Think we could go the whole day without eating any meat? Let’s see… does *this* have any meat in it?" Dunno why they would *want* to do that, but it would be more honest, at least. Then they’d have to be prepared to wrestle with the whole why is flesh from land animals considered meat and flesh from sea animals is not question. I think that most of the abuse that is justified as a religious practice is a mis-application of the teachings of the religion being blamed. I think that’s true for religions other than Catholicism, too. C*lts and S*t*nism being clear exceptions. ej
Response:
Hi Mags, my friend, I’m under the spoiler.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Some things we came to understand this week have been tough. Just need to put some things outside to sort them out and eliminate some of the clutter inside. Going to spoiler here cuz I need to talk about some things that could be triggering to some, including some sp*r*tual vs. h*man ideas inside, triggers and dissing, system function etc. don’t know what else will come up in the process so be careful if you are in a vulnerable space kay. 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 Been dealing with much inside stuff regarding spiritual vs human. Please know that we do not expect anyone to believe as we do but just need to express these things to make sense of whats all inside. thinking that all evil/bad is of human origin. We were raised by sthrn b*bt*sts (a,i) and p*nt*c*stals so we have been b*ble thumped to death!!!!! To us these "teachings" and those of an organization we belonged to as a teen constitute RA! The idea that we could not question the w*ll of g*d (everything that happened to us was supposedly g*ds will according to these teachings) made the abuse all the more damaging cuz not only could we not tell anyone we couldn’t even tell ourself lest we burn in hell for questioning g*ds will! I really need to scream right now!! this shit make me livid, tears at my soul, makes my brain feel like it will explode!
This is solid logic as far as I’m concerned. You are absolutely correct. If you’re willing to accept my judgment, that is. ; added spoiler. I’m not splatting much and I’m telling a terrible tale that was recently in the news. It’s a tale of a bust of a congregation involved in RA. X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X X The other day I saw a story in the news about a congregation getting busted and the children being taken away from their parents, en masse. A number of families were involved. More than 40 children I think. The bust was about corporal punishment. To "discipline" the children, family members would hold down one of them while the "pastor" beat them with a belt. The bust occurred after children showed up at school with welts. The news showed footage of the kids being taken away. Clearly, they were traumatized by being forcibly taken from their parents. The entire world that their young minds knew depended on their parents and their church. It seems that the only way they could possibly have understood being taken away like that, could have felt it, would be as an even grander punishment than the beatings, and then, of course, they must have believed that they got the punishment of being taken away because they "told" of the beatings. Oh, the complications and indications of trauma related problems for now and the rest of their lives! I could barely stand to watch it, yet, I had to look because it corroborated all of my beliefs, as does your story and logic, about the ritual abuse stuff. Then the f****** minister did a talking head bit, after the trauma footage, and said that he stands firm on his commitment to treat children in that fashion. He even said, "Spare the rod, spoil the child." He said, with pride on his lips and cheeks and defiance in his nostrils and eyes, "I used a belt. I talked to the children the entire time I hit them, telling them what they did wrong. I did not stop until I could hear that they felt remorse. I will not give up this practice in order to have the children returned. The bible tells me that I am correct. I’ll have my day in court and we’ll see what a jury says." He _really_ took responsibility, eh? <mucho sarcasm Now, here’s another story. A friend of mine was raised in a pentacostal church. She was punished with public shamings and beatings for not being able to speak in tongues. Today she is dxed DID and bipolar. I have never seen her enjoy more than ten minutes of life at a time before she reverts into an otherwise perpetual state of panic and suspicion. More than any other person I knew, she consistently and dramatically expresses self-loathing and self-disgust. Still, she tells me how much she loves her parents. Her father remains a big shot in the church. I have talked to him and heard him speak to my friend in his extremely punishing ways. And she tells me how she is a bad daughter! Sometimes she sees the whole trauma drama of it and understands what happened to her, but it never lasts more than an afternoon. Most of the time she switches almost too rapidly for me to keep up with her. I mean big switches. She totally contradicts herself from one sentence to the next and her manner and affect are perpetually unstable. She puts herself in danger day after day. She self-medicates in a very high risk fashion. Besides being enraged at what was done to this woman, who is brilliant and witty during her brief, lucid moments, I am afraid for her. She has nearly died at her own hand on several occasions. One time she ate 400 pills of various types. I wish there was some kind of long term, comfortable, caring treatment facility where she could go and be safe while working through everything. There isn’t. I would go to it with her, if it only existed. And, check this out, The Center has been changed. It was reduced in size and moved into an uglier domain. Everything there is in chaos. The attending psychiatrist just got his work load doubled or more by being assigned to the adolescent unit of PIW as well as The Center. Everyone is in an uproar, but there is nothing they can do about it. I found all of this out in a terribly uncomfortable conversation with the director of the program, Florence Hannagan. She seemed like she was going to need to admit herself any minute. So, now there isn’t even that. And, I wanna say that those digs were groovy. I mean, it was luxurious, compared to any other hsptl scene I have ever witnessed or experienced. And it was good that way. It was comforting, soothing, and safe to do "the work," as they say. think the foo and others need to believe that their actions, bad evil actions are caused by something spiritual, that some *god* a singular entity can dictate their lives and mine so that they never have to take any responsibility for their choices.
Really good point. Well we have existed more on a spiritual plane than a human one for 42 years and have never encountered anything spiritual that was bad or evil, in fact we can see beyond the human and connect with the spirit of these abusers and see the good within even them.
I reiterate and stress and I think that you are 100% correct in your analysis and emotional response to this stuff. what triggered the dissing that triggered the dissing to yet a deeper level. The *b*se, s*xual, physical, mental emotional, spiritual, all of it came out of humaness, selfish, greedy, destructive human needs, drives, desires, emotions, expressions etc. this makes me shake inside.
Yes, again. I totally think you got it. Something resonates through me, a question or comment the T posed last week regarding connections with people on a human level. Especiall hard is physical contact.
You make brilliant sense to me. prolly making little sense.
So brilliant that it is clarevoyant. Can never be safe to be amoung others so long as we are many, that was what pushed us inot seclusion a few years ago. The disconnecing within made us vulnerable to further ab*se. Hve tried to be out in the world but it is making things inside fall apart agian. tired, simply just tired, dont’ want to die just do not want to live this way no more. cannot stand the isolation, the loneliness but also cannot deal with human contact, feel like all there is to look forward to is when the spirit can be freee of bondage of this human existance.
This keeps happening to me, too. I work and work and work on myself, by myself, to get the strength together to go out and do something that I think will mean something to me and others, then somebody else talks to me and kaplewy — everybody inside goes b’zonkers. Then I retreat to my isolation and start over again. I feel defeated. The disconnecting is itself a trigger. Say something said triggers me I start to disconnect, the disconnection taked us deeper into what has ben triggered cuz it is on that same plane, level whatever. this is partly what makes this feel so insurmountable and hopeless, this sort of rip-tide effect.
Ditto. The rip-tide metaphor is perfect. still fighting
Me, too, Mags. Even if sometimes it means floating with the tide. Even if sometimes it means treading water to exhaustion. And sometimes I feel like drowning. But, right now, I’m connecting with you because you have connected with me. Right now I am writing to you, reaching out, still fighting. Please write back. And imagine this, Mags. Imagine being the first person ever to figure out the relationship of the moon to the tide. with care and an effort toward hope, trill – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mags
Response:
i have a penny’s worth to add at the very end…
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – dyenths, Just one short comment on something you said… big snip after the spoiler… Hiya, Mags! I don’t think I’ve responded to you before. Nice to meet you! I don’t know if my words will be helpful, but at least I thought enough to respond, hey? (i’m feeling insecure lately) See ya below!! Some things we came to understand this week have been tough. Just need to put some things outside to sort them out and eliminate some of the clutter inside. Going to spoiler here cuz I need to talk about some things that could be triggering to some, including some sp*r*tual vs. h*man ideas inside, triggers and dissing, system function etc. don’t know what else will come up in the process so be careful if you are in a vulnerable space kay. 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 7 <snip On yet another level, my dearest friends are trying to explain to their 4 year old why he can’t have chicken soup on Fridays (they’re reasonably devout catholics). It makes me a little sad to see the cycle continue. I only hope that the little guy doesn’t grow up as guilt-ridden as his dad…. I am a mostly-practicing, mostly-contented Catholic. This kid can’t have chicken soup on Friday because his parents won’t let him. It has nothing to do with Canon Law. A) Nothing in Canon Law applies before the age of reason, which the kid is far too young to have reached; B) Dietary restrictions do not apply before the age of 12 or 14 (don’t remember which at the moment) and, in some cases, not even then. (There are many exceptions to dietary restrictions based on health, physically demanding labor, etc, etc.) If you think it might help, I’ll find the reference for these statements. Beyond that, it’s just absurd to expect that a child this age could benefit from this practice. The point of this (and many other religious practices) is to strengthen one’s relationship to God. It’s nonsensical to think that this kid could make the mental connections that underlie the recommendation for this practice. If they think that it is critical to get the kid into this habit, they should own the responsibility for it and not try to pass it off to the Church. They could make a game out of it. "Think we could go the whole day without eating any meat? Let’s see… does *this* have any meat in it?" Dunno why they would *want* to do that, but it would be more honest, at least. Then they’d have to be prepared to wrestle with the whole why is flesh from land animals considered meat and flesh from sea animals is not question. I think that most of the abuse that is justified as a religious practice is a mis-application of the teachings of the religion being blamed. I think that’s true for religions other than Catholicism, too.
i agree with this. i, like Mags, was raised southern b*ptist (i tried to write to you about that, Mags, but it didn’t happen. sorry. we’re not functioning well enough lately to make sense of our thoughts.) my pet peeve these days is all the WWJD consumer items. hats, bracelets, bookmarks, key chains, you name it. i guess the point is to have a ready reminder of how to channel your thoughts when you’re slipping into sin. it bugs me because a good percentage of the so-called Chr*stians i’ve been acquainted with wouldn’t know WJWD if he materialized then and there and told them. otoh, i’m not well versed in Chr*stian doctrine, so maybe they really do think J was a mindless goody two-shoes, in which case there’s no misapplication. what do i know. still, it bugs me. one of the V C*lts and S*t*nism being clear exceptions. ej
– If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people together to collect wood and don’t assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea. – Antoine de Saint-Exup
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