Question:
I meant this reply for Wallpaper’s eyes only, but because it bounced I have posted it here. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wallpa…@pop.service.ohio-state.edu wrote: > Posted and e-mailed. > tra…@ameritech.net wrote: > >wallpa…@pop.service.ohio-state.edu wrote: > >> Kyle Arnstead wrote: > <<<<<<<snip>>>>>>> > >>> What is interesting is,since there is adequate proof of literal > >>>altered brain function, PTSD is a true disease. It will, however, be > >>>several years before it is upgraded to reflect the true nature of > >>>the problem. The wheel turns slowly. > >>>So what does this mean to me? Since I am diagnosed with Massive and > >>>chronic PTSD with many under-the-surface or sublimated sub-diagnosis, > >>>all current studies tell me that serious PTSD, involving multiple trauma > >>>that has been repeated over time, will always get worst. > >> I think you need to add the word "untreated" (PTSD) in that sentence. > >Not necessarily. I have been in treament for 23 years and in spite of > >that treatment, I have gotten progressively worse. A common misconception > >amongst doctors and well as even people on this NG is that intervention > >with current treatments is the solution. There are a huge array of people > >on this board whom have suffered traumas to varying degrees. Some people > >whom have suffered mild traumas (relatively speaking) and have remained > >untreated for years can recouperate, while others who have suffered > >massive and repeated, life threatening traumas can start treatment > >immediately and never see any inprovement. [sic] > One thing we try to avoid here is comparing or "degree"ing peoples > traumas.
Please Wallpaper, I think it is wrong to say the WE try to avoid"degreeing" here. I have never seen that ideal posted anywhere on this ng. I thought this NG was for the free exchange of ideas. Also please reread what i said. In a nut shell, I said that there are some people that experience mild traumas and others that experience severe ones. Are you trying to say that there are not mild and severe traumas? Are you trying to tell me that all traumas experienced by even the same person do the same amount of damage? I agree that different people can be traumatized (or not) to different degrees, by the same experience, but it is ridiculous to say that there are not different magnitudes of traumatic events. > What may seem massive to one person and traumatize their > life can seem like nothing to another person.
It may also be possible that the reason the second person is uneffected by whatthe first person says was traumatic is because the event wasn’t traumatic at all, neither to him/her nor the first person. Trauma and ptsd are severely overused terms. I am astounded at how many cases of diagnosed PTSD don’t have any of the telltale symptoms. > Using the same language > you use, I am sure there are many people who "have suffered mild traumas > (relatively speaking)" "can start treatment immediately and never see > any inprovement can start treatment immediately and never see any > inprovement [sic]" and conversely others who have suffered massive and > repeated, life threatening traumas" "and have remained untreated for > years can recouperate". What I am saying is that you can’t compare or > generalize lives/traumas/healing.
But if I am generalizing, so are you, by saying that we can all heal. Also,of course we can generalize. In fact it is almost imparative that we do. We are all human, therefore generalization will bring you to some factual conclusions about humans. If we don’t accept some generalizations then how would you propose we define the condition of PTSD. Will we soon be saying that a person can be traumatized by something that happened in a room while they were present and unconscious? > Each of us has a specific make-up and > we each react to trauma and treatment in our own way and time.
A quote from my original post above: "There are a huge array of people on thisboard whom have suffered traumas to varying degrees". What’s your point: I see no disagreement on this point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I had repeated massive and sometimes life-threatening trauma as a child > and went over 25 years w/o treatment and I feel I am finally on my way > to the final steps of letting it go, of feeling heal and whole. > >>Once they healing process is undertaken, the object is to reprocess > >>the horrible lies > >What if they aren’t lies. If a soldier killed people in the war this is > >not a lie. I’m sure there are soldier who did terrible things even when > >they did have a choice not to, that regret it now. How does one put that > >behind them if they are 100% accountable? > One learns to forgive him/herself. One learns to let the past be in the > past. I’m not saying that’s easy to do…that’s why we need professionals > to help us sort through that which we can’t change and that which we can.
Do you really need a professional for that? Where did they gain the insight todo this? You give these people far to much credit. > We can’t change what we’ve done (or in most cases had done to us) but we > can change the way we look at it. Sorta like, to use a personal example, > seeing all the bad I do and yet believing that my sins are covered by the > blood of Jesus Christ and I’m held blameless.
I am glad this works for you, but for me it cannot: I am a big believer in accountability. Where goes accountability, also goes right and wrong. Without right and wrong we have nothing. I too believe that a person should try to see things correctly and absolve themselves of blame, where possible. Making an argument to a person who was an abused child and blames themselves, that it was not their fault is an easy argument to make for most of us. I can come up with non-religious reasons why it is not a persons fault that they were beat as a child, but I would have a very hard time making the same argument to a person who killed someone, when that killing was avoidable. What if some of us don’t believe in a God that can wash away our sins? I was brought up catholic, but rejected it as nonsense when I was about 10 years old. I don’t want to criticize your beliefs or get into a religious debate, but my mind simply will not allow me to believe in something which is so unbelievable and for which there is absolutely no evidence. Is God or faith mandatory to healing, in your opinion? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> It’s a change of perspective, > in this case looking at it through God’s eyes, and fact. We need to do > the same thing in ouur healing, whether it’s over regret for killing in a > war or being a victim of terrible abuse. We need to look at things as, > first of all as having happened, and secondly, whether we are going to let > these things forever run our lives. > Forgiving oneself is the hardest thing to do. It takes awhile to build up > to that point. It takes strength that only comes with strong professional > and personal support, as well as a desire/will to go through whatever it > takes to get though to the other side. > For me EMDR was a strong tool in giving me a look at fact uncolored by > my own feelings. Each of us has to find our own key. > <<<<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>>>>> > >>>My life has been rather ’story book’ in it’s intensity and violence. > >>That’s obvious from the intensity and anger in some of your posts. > >>>I have murdered people for my employer, the United States of America. > >>>I’ve been places and done things I guess movies are made of, I don’t > >>>know… I don’t watch them. > >> I can’t watch dramatic movies either. It’s surprising the types of > >> movies with surprise triggers. 
> >>>I do know I can hardly do anything. Everything is a tremendous effort. > >>You’re not alone on that one! Medication helps fight off this level of > >>depression. There is a way to feel better while you’re "getting better". > >Wallpaper, why would you assume that "this depression" is the symptom > >that makes it hard for him to do anything? > Because that is a symptom basic to depression. Lack of energy, initiative, > and basic desire to do anything are indicators of depression, whether it > is a slight depression or one that needs clinical intervention.
Anxiety and flashbacks can cause agoraphobia that would also make things atremendous effort to do. > I’ve > seen questions asking about these symptoms on every clinical test/survey > I’ve ever taken about depression and have read much on the subject since > being diagnosed. From reading his own description of how he feels > indicates a depression…and I know how debilitating depression can be. > I’m no doctor/therapist, but I’ve been in this thing long enough to see > certain things and recognize patterns
Patterns? Your generalizing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> …I guess that’s why those of us > (not just me) that have been on this road a long time can give some help > to others. That’s why this group is so helpful to so many. > (Plus, I always reserve the right to be wrong.) :- > <<<<<snip>>>>>>> > wallpaper
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -wallpa…@pop.service.ohio-state.edu wrote: > Posted and e-mailed > Kyle Arnstead wrote: > >Kevin, I have no idea who you are but you seem to have a fairly > >realistic take on the newgroup and those who are playing social games. > >This group was suggested to me as a place where I could advance my > >knowledge of Posttrautatic Stress as I’ve elected to pursue self help, > >rather than dance to the music of half-baked doctors. > >I have gone so far as talk to researchers at Harvard and have read > >(or had read to me) countless articles. It appears PTSD is in it’s > >extreme manifestation over many years, actually destroys synaptic > >electrical/chemical function and diverts neuropathway function > >to the wrong receptors. This causes an array of dysfunctional behaviors. > Kyle, that’s why medication is so important, some of it "fools" the brain > into believing it is producing the needed chemicals and others help us > live through the day (and through therapy!). Once we reprocess our thoughts, > the plan is to slowly reduce the meds and allow the "fooled" brain to > gradually learn to make up the chemical difference *naturally* because it > has grown used to, over time, being balanced. > > What is interesting is,since there is adequate proof of literal > >altered brain function, PTSD is a true disease. It will, however, be > >several years before it is upgraded to reflect the true nature of > >the problem. The wheel turns slowly. > >So what does this mean to me? Since I am diagnosed with Massive and > >chronic PTSD with many under-the-surface or sublimated sub-diagnosis, > >all current studies tell me that serious PTSD, involving multiple trauma > >that has been repeated over time, will always get worst. > I think you need to add the word "untreated" (PTSD) in that sentence.
Not necessarily. I have been in treament for 23 years and in spite of that treatment, I have gotten progressively worse. A common misconception amongst doctors and well as even people on this NG is that intervention with current treatments is the solution. There are a huge array of people on this board whom have suffered traumas to varying degrees. Some people whom have suffered mild traumas (relatively speaking) and have remained untreated for years can recouperate, while others who have suffered massive and repeated, life threatening traumas can start treatment immediately and never see any inprovement. > Once they healing process is undertaken, the object is to reprocess the > horrible lies
What if they aren’t lies. If a soldier killed people in the war this is not a lie. I’m sure there are soldier who did terrible things even when they did have a choice not to, that regret it now. How does one put that behind them if they are 100% accountable? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> and memories into the framework of today, to be able to > someday be able to remember the trauma and put it into it’s proper > place in our memory, to be able to distinguish between then and now, > between truths and lies, between the safety of who you REALLY are now, > where you are now and the seeming reality of flashbacks. Actually, I > have discovered that the flashbacks diminish as I’ve grown and gained > the strength to stop and re-orient myself. > >My life has been rather ’story book’ in it’s intensity and violence. > That’s obvious from the intensity and anger in some of your posts. > >I have murdered people for my employer, the United States of America. > >I’ve been places and done things I guess movies are made of, I don’t > >know… I don’t watch them. > I can’t watch dramatic movies either. It’s surprising the types of > movies with surprise triggers. > > I do know I can hardly do anything. Everything is a tremendous > >effort. > You’re not alone on that one! Medication helps fight off this level of > depression. There is a way to feel better while you’re "getting better".
Wallpaper, why would you assume that "this depression" is the symptom that makes it hard for him to do anything? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> <<<<<snip>>>>>>> > >Even this post is taking forever, I’ve been at it over a hour. > I’m glad you were able to finish it. Sharing is not easy and can be > very trigering. You have done a very brave thing. > <<<<<<<<snip>>>>>>>>>> > >Anyway, I am looking for something to ease this pain, this > >disorganization, this paranoia, this terrible numbness in my brain > >and heart. I will sit back and listen and maybe this is one avenue > >to explore. I apologize in advance for my aggressive outbursts that > >will surely happen. They have been happening most of my life. > >Kyle > You might want to wait a while before you post what you type, > re-read what you’ve written and ask yourself if it’s an aggressive > outburst you might what to edit or if it is good to go. One measure > you may want to use is to ask yourself if your post is attacking a > person, commenting on a post, or simply sharing where you’re at or > what you’re thinking/learning. Taking a time out can help you reflect > on what you have written, just don’t allow it to keep you from posting > what you NEED to, even if you have to apologize afterwards. Talking helps. > >Trauma wrote: > >> I have always had substantial avoidance behavior as a result > >> of my trauma and flashbacks. I see a lot of cases where > >> their seems to be no avoidance behavior. Can you send me an > >> email or post whether or not you show avoidance behavior?
Response:
Kevin, I have no idea who you are but you seem to have a fairly realistic take on the newgroup and those who are playing social games. This group was suggested to me as a place where I could advance my knowledge of Posttrautatic Stress as I’ve elected to pursue self help, rather than dance to the music of half-baked doctors. I have gone so far as talk to researchers at Harvard and have read (or had read to me) countless articles. It appears PTSD is in it’s extreme manifestation over many years, actually destroys synaptic electrical/chemical function and diverts neuropathway function to the wrong receptors. This causes an array of dysfunctional behaviors. What is interesting is, since there is adequate proof of literal altered brain function, PTSD is a true disease. It will, however, be several years before it is upgraded to reflect the true nature of the problem. The wheel turns slowly. So what does this mean to me? Since I am diagnosed with Massive and chronic PTSD with many under-the-surface or sublimated sub-diagnosis, all current studies tell me that serious PTSD, involving multiple trauma that has been repeated over time, will always get worst. My life has been rather ’story book’ in it’s intensity and violence. I have murdered people for my employer, the United States of America. I’ve been places and done things I guess movies are made of, I don’t know… I don’t watch them. I do know I can hardly do anything. Everything is a tremendous effort. I even have trouble driving because I can’t concentrate well enough to know what the fuck is happening. Even this post is taking forever, I’ve been at it over a hour. I do have a family and as a result there are people in my house and I feel god-awful uncomfortable and excuse myself and go upstairs. I can’t allow anyone to stand behind me. I feel like my brain is in a box and I can’t tear it open to see out… my world has closed in on me. I "feel" the deaths I’ve caused and wake scared, but never remember my dreams, only the reaction to whatever was dancing in my brain. Anyway, I am looking for something to ease this pain, this disorganization, this paranoia, this terrible numbness in my brain and heart. I will sit back and listen and maybe this is one avenue to explore. I apologize in advance for my aggressive outbursts that will surely happen. They have been happening most of my life. Kyle – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Trauma wrote: > I have always had substantial avoidance behavior as a result > of my trauma and flashbacks. I see a lot of cases where > their seems to be no avoidance behavior. Can you send me an > email or post whether or not you show avoidance behavior?
Response:
Hi Trauma! Trauma wrote: > Did you avoid those things to prevent a fearful or depressed feeling? > If so, was it one, the other, or both?
I have no idea … I suspect that I must have dissociated rather than deal with the situation. Sorry I cannot be more helpful. My answer seems to have been dissociation for a long time. :/ Nancy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Trauma wrote: > > > I have always had substantial avoidance behavior as a result > > > of my trauma and flashbacks. I see a lot of cases where > > > their seems to be no avoidance behavior. Can you send me an > > > email or post whether or not you show avoidance behavior? > > If -I- had known that I had avoidance behaviors, I would have > > avoided them 
> > Actually, it took several years of therepy and some meds before I > > could see my own avoidance behaviors. Some of these are very > > subtle … such as avoiding reality and staying in denial about > > abuse … I somehow thought I deserved to be abused and stuck > > with an abusive situation for 19 years. > > I.E. I avoided marital separation … which has proven to be part > > of my recovery efforts over the last 18 months. > > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > > Nancy
Response:
I have always had substantial avoidance behavior as a result of my trauma and flashbacks. I see a lot of cases where their seems to be no avoidance behavior. Can you send me an email or post whether or not you show avoidance behavior?
Response:
Hi! Trauma wrote: > I have always had substantial avoidance behavior as a result > of my trauma and flashbacks. I see a lot of cases where > their seems to be no avoidance behavior. Can you send me an > email or post whether or not you show avoidance behavior?
If -I- had known that I had avoidance behaviors, I would have avoided them Actually, it took several years of therepy and some meds before I could see my own avoidance behaviors. Some of these are very subtle … such as avoiding reality and staying in denial about abuse … I somehow thought I deserved to be abused and stuck with an abusive situation for 19 years. I.E. I avoided marital separation … which has proven to be part of my recovery efforts over the last 18 months. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
Did you avoid those things to prevent a fearful or depressed feeling? If so, was it one, the other, or both? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kipco wrote: > Hi! > Trauma wrote: > > I have always had substantial avoidance behavior as a result > > of my trauma and flashbacks. I see a lot of cases where > > their seems to be no avoidance behavior. Can you send me an > > email or post whether or not you show avoidance behavior? > If -I- had known that I had avoidance behaviors, I would have > avoided them > Actually, it took several years of therepy and some meds before I > could see my own avoidance behaviors. Some of these are very > subtle … such as avoiding reality and staying in denial about > abuse … I somehow thought I deserved to be abused and stuck > with an abusive situation for 19 years. > I.E. I avoided marital separation … which has proven to be part > of my recovery efforts over the last 18 months. > Smile and there will be something to smile about! > Nancy
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.