Question:
Do I have this oppressive sense of fear? Things have been going well for me lately. Life has been pretty even (all things considering). Work is fine. People around me have been quite stable. I haven’t had any huge outbursts, justified or not. My children seem happy. I have this "calm before the storm" feeling brewing in my chest. I have to keep reminding myself to breathe- and I’m not making fun of blondes. Perhaps it’s because it’s coming up to a full moon. Perhaps I just can’t handle things being "fine". Please tell me I’m not the only one who gets anxious when things are going their way? Scorpio
Response:
Hi Scorpio! > Do I have this oppressive sense of fear? Things have been going well > for me lately. Life has been pretty even (all things considering). > Work is fine. People around me have been quite stable. I haven’t had > any huge outbursts, justified or not. My children seem happy. > I have this "calm before the storm" feeling brewing in my chest. I > have to keep reminding myself to breathe- and I’m not making fun of > blondes. Perhaps it’s because it’s coming up to a full moon. Perhaps I > just can’t handle things being "fine".
This is rather standard for those of us with PTSD. It has something to do with a physical addiction to stress hormones IME. One of my therapists explained it as: You have lived with stress hormones for most of your life. Your body remembers this and considers it ‘normal’. When your stress hormone level lowers, your body tries to get back to ‘normal’; one of the ways it does this is by creating ‘fake’ reasons for anxiety (fake is my word, not hers). Waiting for the next ’shoe to drop’ is a standard way for a body to create anxiety IME. This is also characteristic of those with family members who are addicted to alcohol etc. That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us with PTSD. 12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > Please tell me I’m not the only one who gets anxious when things are > going their way?
See above. 
YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -"Nancy" <kipc…@msn.com> wrote in message news:WVONc.5$FW1.0@lakeread06… > Hi Scorpio! > > Do I have this oppressive sense of fear? Things have been going well > > for me lately. Life has been pretty even (all things considering). > > Work is fine. People around me have been quite stable. I haven’t had > > any huge outbursts, justified or not. My children seem happy. > > I have this "calm before the storm" feeling brewing in my chest. I > > have to keep reminding myself to breathe- and I’m not making fun of > > blondes. Perhaps it’s because it’s coming up to a full moon. Perhaps I > > just can’t handle things being "fine". > This is rather standard for those of us with PTSD. > It has something to do with a physical addiction to stress hormones IME. > One of my therapists explained it as: > You have lived with stress hormones for most of your life. Your body > remembers this and considers it ‘normal’. When your stress hormone level > lowers, your body tries to get back to ‘normal’; one of the ways it does > this is by creating ‘fake’ reasons for anxiety (fake is my word, not > hers). > Waiting for the next ’shoe to drop’ is a standard way for a body to > create anxiety IME. This is also characteristic of those with family > members who are addicted to alcohol etc. That is one reason why I > recommend 12 Step groups for those of us with PTSD. 12 Steppers have > created ways in their groups to reduce the need to create anxiety in > ourselves. > > Please tell me I’m not the only one who gets anxious when things are > > going their way?
Thanks for the feedback Nancy. It’s much appreciated. I keep control – I hold the reigns tight for so much of the day and night, when it starts to overwhelm me, I get very anxious. Your therapist makes sense in a way. I think I get so damned tired of analysing things that I’ve reached the stage where I’m just holding on. (in the mental sense)
Response:
Hi Scorpio! > I keep control – I hold the reigns tight for so much of the day and > night, when it starts to overwhelm me, I get very anxious.
Remember that ‘control is only an illusion’. None of us has any ‘real’ control over what will happen next. With PTSD treatment I finally understood that I have no control over the future of my days and nights, no matter how much I tried. By 12 Stepping I learned that this lack of control is OK and a way to for me to live with the lack of control. > Your therapist makes sense in a way. I think I get so damned tired of > analysing things that I’ve reached the stage where I’m just holding > on. (in the mental sense)
Recovering from PTSD is more about ‘letting go’ that it is about ’struggle’ and/or ‘fighting the symptoms’ IME. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
In article <WVONc.5$FW1.0@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… <snipped> > That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us with > PTSD. 12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce the need > to create anxiety in ourselves.
I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and does not aim at independent recovery. As I understand it in essence the 12-step philosophy is such:- * One is irredeemably ’sick’, must attend group and follow a good ‘program’ forever. * One must remind oneself and constantly wallow in one’s ’sickness’. * At some point one must abdicate responsibility for one’s life, actions, thoughts, beliefs and behaviours to a ‘higher power’. * Complete dependence upon ‘god’ does not ‘cure’ but it enables abstinence. * Abstinence, group and ‘god’ are all it takes. * ‘Groupies’ are permanently damaged goods and incapable of looking after themselves without the help of group and ‘god’. * One can only be ‘helped’ by others who have ‘been there’. * If one ever claims to be ‘in recovery’ one is actually in denial. * If one ever tries to leave the group, one is likely to be accused of falling off one’s ‘program’ because one has succumbed to ‘denial’. * ‘Group’ is a case of the non-recovering telling the non-recovered how not to recover. 12-steps were invented by Christian fundamentalists, the very same people who brought about the Temperance movement and Prohibition. 12-steps employ similar recruitment and detainment strategies as fundamentalist Christian religions – find the flaw, make them dependent for eternity, provide the only life-line, restrict outside contact. (Aside – these tactics are ALWAYS accompanied by abuse) If it hadn’t been spawned by religion 12-steps *might* have had a chance, though this is unlikely while groups are wholly and solely organised by people who freely, proudly, admit to living lives fully dependent upon ‘group’, ‘god’ and abstinence. The 12-steppers I know personally do not overcome anxiety. Elements of the program may even induce anxiety by their very nature of dependency. At best these 12-steppers smother anxiety by medicating it with more frequent attendance at ‘group’ and a personal commitment to try harder to connect with the ‘higher power’ (though they be very firmly free-thinker atheist). I do not know *anyone* who has recovered through 12-steps, but I do know several ‘recovered’ alcoholics who only made it after they broke free from 12-steps. In my humble opinion, people with PTSD have enough hurdles to stagger over without them becoming attached to a life-encompassing dependency. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude." - ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.
Response:
Hi Celt! >> That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us >> with PTSD. 12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce >> the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for > people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and > does not aim at independent recovery.
That’s a fair point if you truly believe it. I only have > 20 years’ experience in several 12 Step groups, so I don’t know all the answers, but your assumptions above are a little off IMO. > As I understand it in essence the 12-step philosophy is such:-
————snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————- > The 12-steppers I know personally do not overcome anxiety.
Your experience is interesting to me. Most of the aetheists I know are 12 Steppers. ——-more snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————- > I do not know *anyone* who has recovered through 12-steps, but I do > know several ‘recovered’ alcoholics who only made it after they broke > free from 12-steps.
It works for some; for some 12 Stepping is not appropriate when dealing with their own addictions. However, I was not talking about those with addictions, but rather those in the complementary programs, who are forced (by biological or empathetic relationships) to ‘deal’ with the addicts. > In my humble opinion, people with PTSD have enough hurdles to stagger > over without them becoming attached to a life-encompassing dependency.
I agree. However, being involuntarily attached to another person with a life-encompassing dependency (aka addiction) is rather difficult (but almost predictable) if one also has PTSD, don’t you agree? Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
In article <hvfOc.1335$FW1.19@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Celt! > >> That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us > >> with PTSD. 12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce > >> the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > > I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for > > people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and > > does not aim at independent recovery. > That’s a fair point if you truly believe it. I only have > 20 years’ > experience in several 12 Step groups, so I don’t know all the answers, > but your assumptions above are a little off IMO. > > As I understand it in essence the 12-step philosophy is such:- > ————snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————-
********************************************************** REPOSTED SO THAT THE CRUX OF THE ISSUE NOT BE SIDE-STEPPED ********************************************************** * One is irredeemably ’sick’, must attend group and follow a good ‘program’ forever. * One must remind oneself and constantly wallow in one’s ’sickness’. * At some point one must abdicate responsibility for one’s life, actions, thoughts, beliefs and behaviours to a ‘higher power’. * Complete dependence upon ‘god’ does not ‘cure’ but it enables abstinence. * Abstinence, group and ‘god’ are all it takes. * ‘Groupies’ are permanently damaged goods and incapable of looking after themselves without the help of group and ‘god’. * One can only be ‘helped’ by others who have ‘been there’. * If one ever claims to be ‘in recovery’ one is actually in denial. * If one ever tries to leave the group, one is likely to be accused of falling off one’s ‘program’ because one has succumbed to ‘denial’. * ‘Group’ is a case of the non-recovering telling the non-recovered how not to recover. ********************************************************** If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. I’ve sat in on a group or few myself, though never with the intention of becoming a member. The experience was profoundly saddening – to see nearly 2 dozen people wallowing in their misery; at times it looked like a ‘plot thinktank’ for Days Of Our Lives. I wondered how long they’d put their lives on hold – past and future – all for the morbid joy of a weekly rehashing of their woes. Everybody, without exception, was a ‘victim’ – one way or another. I’ve been recovered and maintaining it for several years. I know at least one person who spent longer than that at AA and never progressed past denying herself so much as the scent of alcohol. She was a dedicated Christian from childhood, embraced the ‘god’ thing with a passion and firmly believed in 12-steps. She was never a sponsor, though, because she also believed that if someone called on her to stop them drinking alcohol, she’d end up calling her own sponsor. So it was to the day she died. > > The 12-steppers I know personally do not overcome anxiety. > Your experience is interesting to me. Most of the aetheists I know are > 12 Steppers.
I can tell you from pretty direct contact with several hundred atheists (at least) that they do not support nor follow 12-step programs. Until last September I spent the best part of 4 years debating religion at M$N chat as a freethinking humanist, materialist pantheist. For the whole of that time I helped host (mod) a string of informal freethinker and atheist chat rooms. I really do know quite a few atheists. Ask around about ‘Celt’ over there. Perhaps they will have heard of me. Alas my forum posts were few, but I would post a link if anyone asks. Apart from that, I have one personal acquaintance who openly professes to be Christian. She is a recovered heroin addict who hasn’t done 12-steps because she stumbled upon Church first. The other few dozen are atheist, agnostic, freethinker or pagan. *None* of the atheists I know, whether personally or online has ever stayed with a 12-step program. Very few of them even consider attending. The moment the proselytising begins, they are gone. Certainly *none* of them have ever recovered or even progressed towards recovery at the hands of 12-steps. As soon as they drop abstinence, the whole thing falls over because they don’t ever deal with the PROBLEM, they just stop giving it an outlet. 12-steps *don’t* deal with the PROBLEM. They only address the end result of it. Stop that end result happening = instant cure, or so the 12-steps movement thinks. > ——-more snipped nonsense about 12 step programs ————-
************************************************************************ REPOSTED SO AN IMPORTANT POINT NOT BE CASUALLY CAST ASIDE ************************************************************************ 12-steps were invented by Christian fundamentalists, the very same people who brought about the Temperance movement and Prohibition. 12-steps employ similar recruitment and detainment strategies as fundamentalist Christian religions – find the flaw, make them dependent for eternity, provide the only life-line, restrict outside contact. (Aside – these tactics are ALWAYS accompanied by abuse) ************************************************************************ Please explain how you deem these facts "nonsense", Nancy. Suggesting 12-steps as a solution to an atheist or non-Christian is an insult. The casual assumption that something based on ‘god’ will work is incredibly irritating, disrespectful and often judgmental, too. Many an atheist would argue (quite convincingly) that people who believe in invisible beings have got far greater problems than a mere over- indulgence in alcohol. > > I do not know *anyone* who has recovered through 12-steps, but I do > > know several ‘recovered’ alcoholics who only made it after they broke > > free from 12-steps. > It works for some; for some 12 Stepping is not appropriate when dealing > with their own addictions.
I was not speaking only of substance addictions. I was thinking and speaking of *behavioural* addictions, using alcohol as a best-known general example. Things like co-dependency, dependency, anxiety and depression. 12-steps makes *these* addictions much worse because it feeds and nurtures them. Alcoholism is an addiction to the behaviour of avoiding unpleasant feelings by getting drunk. Co-Dependency is an addiction to the behaviour of not thinking of or being responsible for oneself as a separate individual. Dependency is an addiction to being looked after. Depression is an addiction to negative thinking. Anxiety is an addiction to worry. Histrionics is an addiction to excitement. Borderline is an addiction to control. I will agree that any or all of these addictions are a common and natural part of recovering from abuse or trauma. The post-traumatic psyche is in a highly fragile state which makes a fertile ground for all kinds of dependencys and addictions. > However, I was not talking about those with addictions, but rather those > in the complementary programs, who are forced (by biological or > empathetic relationships) to ‘deal’ with the addicts.
So was I. Al-Anon was far worse for wallowing than either AA or Narc- Anon. Half of the group whined about how victimised they were while the other half encouraged them and told them how helpless they’d be in the face of it if not for Group. (An anecdote from Celt’s informal memiors.) By the way, *most* of what I hold as truth (and present as fact) about 12-steps comes from reading self-help and psychology books and not from personal experience, sharing or chatting. Most of it was researched from an interest in co-dependency, borderline and narcissist – not PTSD or substance addictions. > > In my humble opinion, people with PTSD have enough hurdles to stagger > > over without them becoming attached to a life-encompassing dependency. > I agree. However, being involuntarily attached to another person with a > life-encompassing dependency (aka addiction) is rather difficult (but > almost predictable) if one also has PTSD, don’t you agree?
A case, perhaps, of birds of a feather? People who perceive themselves as victims of abuse have a reputation for attaching themselves to people who present an image of controlled power. Both of these personality types have a roughly equal chance of arising from past trauma. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude." - ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.
Response:
Hi Celt! > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so.
I am not interested in debating these points, Celt. I disagree with you and state simply that your experience is not mine. > By the way, *most* of what I hold as truth (and present as fact) about > 12-steps comes from reading self-help and psychology books and not > from personal experience, sharing or chatting.
That does a lot to explain why we have different POVs. :/ Until you have about 10 meetings of the same group under your belt, it is not possible IME to understand 12 Step recovery. Some p-docs and p-therapists support 12 Step groups and some do not. The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. I, personally, would never have been able to enter therapy without first having 12 Stepped. YMMV Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
In article <sKtOc.2602$FW1.2432@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… > Hi Celt! > > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > I am not interested in debating these points, Celt.
Nor am I, Nancy. It is a commonly held belief that debating provable facts is futile. I was using them to back up my initial aim which was to question whether tossing people into the 12-steps net would be the wisest thing to do to if they have PTSD. These reasons are why it is unlikely to have any real long term or permanent positive results or be in their better interests at all. Simply put, the majority of 12-steps programs feed and nurture unhealthy behaviour. Some of those points have serious implications for people with PTSD and those who live with them. And yet, twice now, you have dismissed the opportunity to show that you take these issues into consideration before suggesting to an individual that they get some group. Upon reflection it has occurred to me that you might well be in no emotional position to withstand an honest appraisal of the 12-steps movement even from within, and therefore I shall leave your reaction and ancillary comments as proof of the validity of my points. 20 years! > I disagree with you and state simply that your experience is not mine.
I’m certainly not surprised that you disagree with me. Were I in your stated position, I’d most likely be disagreeing with me too. I appreciate fully that our paths have differed considerably. I, for example, would say that I recovered this far within 12 months, not 12 steps. > > By the way, *most* of what I hold as truth (and present as fact) about > > 12-steps comes from reading self-help and psychology books and not > > from personal experience, sharing or chatting. > That does a lot to explain why we have different POVs. :/
Yes, you are right, it does. I have collected my knowledge from hardcover books, peer reviewed and published by companies with reputations at stake. I read several of these books from keen interest before I had contact with any groups and so had not succumbed as the unwary into a toxic environment. I haven’t immersed myself in that environment to learn coping strategies and props to support my daily life. As a result I have no idea whatsoever of the strength and intensity of emotional ties that invariably form within informal groups like most of 12-steps. > Until you have about 10 meetings of the same group under your belt, it is > not possible IME to understand 12 Step recovery.
I doubt very much if I’d manage it by then. I would be looking at it from a recovered point of view rather than that of a victimised or healing individual and it is very unlikely I’d fall into the trap. Incidentally, the admonition to attend at least 10 meetings before I make up my mind smacks of obligation, leading me to react to it as emotional blackmail. It also has not escaped my attention that this is a commonly used recruitment ploy, flourished in an attempt to suck the needy in long enough to get them fully hooked. > Some p-docs and p-therapists support 12 Step groups and some do not.
This is very true. Also, some p-docs and p-therapists aim to have their clients recover and take up healthy lifestyles within 12 months and there are others that don’t achieve it in years. Note: this is not necessarily the fault of the p-provider. > The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio.
Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program offered. Where I live in Australia (and some other places both inside and outside the US) the majority of 12-step groups are informal affairs with ‘leadership’ passed down through other groupies. There is no formal training involved; any groupie might be chosen to be leader. This may well depend on how passionately they embrace their program and group or rest on simply having ‘been there’. There is no ‘management’ to ensure group stays within healthy boundaries. It would be one thing to send people only to a professionally monitored group but entirely another where quality control is non- existent. In refusing to respond in any way to any of my points, I have moved toward concluding that minor details like what *quality* of group your targets will end up in are unlikely to trouble you to any extent. In light of this there is also the matter of how atheists react to being encouraged to attend 12-steps. Most atheists (and like-minded others) will interpret it as a sign that the advisor lacks respect for or understanding of their spiritual belief or lack there-of. Atheists do not believe in a ‘god’ and imagining that they can ‘give up’ responsibility for their problem to an invisible crutch shows an alarming degree of inconsideration. There is a widely held attitude that AA is church for non-churchgoers, and that the offshoot 12-step groups (AlAnon et. al) grew because simply not enough heathens are alcoholics. I’m not saying these are your motives, just letting on that this may be how they will be interpreted by those already in the know. Atheists not in the know will catch on within the first few meetings. Either way, it’s unlikely to foster a good opinion of your behaviour and perceived intent. Of course this doesn’t concern me directly at all; I rather hoped it would concern you, though. > I, personally, would never have been able to enter therapy without first > having 12 Stepped.
I, personally, would never have made it to recovery if I had. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude." - ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.
Response:
In article <ceg72n$9b…@216.39.134.150@theriver.com>, bckw…@theriver.com carefully typed… > so, Celt, are you trying to say that you’re an atheist? Is that your > argument against 12 steppers? Is so, just spit it out. We’re adults > here….at least I am….so just what is it that you’re trying to say?
Not at all. I am most assuredly *NOT* atheist. I am pantheist, a view I have held more or less entire for a dozen years or so. In a rare burst of possesive excess I insist that it is *my* belief and you and anyone else will just have to go get their own. I’m trying to say that not only is it pointless to send atheists and non- Christians to a Christian based organisation, it’s insulting to even consider doing so. Many of the atheists I know are atheist because they were abused in the name of religion as children. Suggesting they attend 12-steps is an extension of that abuse. Apart from that it’s arrogant, judgmental and just plain rude – not healthy for anyone, especially people with PTSD, including atheists. I would protest exposing Christians to 12-steps on the grounds that it would only compound things for them. For the others I protest on the grounds that it smacks of subversive conversion *and* it would only compound things. I ought make it clear that I do not think Nancy is recruiting on behalf of religion. If she is, I apologise for my hasty assumption. I am trying to point out that alternative and non- believers are likely to be (rightfully) affronted. I don’t ‘like’ 12-steps because it is inherently ‘toxic’ and seriously flawed at several major and load-bearing junctions. I have nothing at all against 12-steppers, unless they begin to recruit. Even so, it isn’t that they try to recruit that I object to but who, *how* and why. The ‘herd’ mentality – which begins to take over when humans get together in groups – is vastly different from the individual mentality, even within the same individual. Therefore 12-steppers are not inherently bad, sick or devalued – by me at any rate. It’s my considered view that at worst they are most likely misguided and perhaps underinformed. There is no shame in being gulled by something that presents itself as pure, wholesome and good. Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude." - ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.
Response:
"Celt" <celt.NOS…@NOSERVER.gcn.cx> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b763214688b721a98968c@cp-news.centix.net… > In article <sKtOc.2602$FW1.2432@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully > typed… > > Hi Celt!
(good stuff deleted) I would just like to say that I have attended AA one a week for eleven years now and haven’t I attempted the steps. Nor have I got up and shared. During my time at AA my drinking has diminished from about twenty beers to about six beers a day. I have seen a lot come and go and a few have managed not to pick up the first drink. Quite a few drank themselves to death too because of the guilt of picking up a drink after being sober for years. The brain washing can do that, and I’ve witnessed it many times. I’m not into the guilt trips. I show up sober, put my dollar in for a coffee, sit myself down on those god awful chairs and try not to make a nuisance of myself. Say the serenity prayer. Oh I hear some beaut stories too. Old timers occasionally tell me to set an example to the new comers. But I don’t see any sense in being a dry resented old bastard who is in the process of smoking themselves to death like most old timers. Eric
Response:
"Celt" <celt.NOS…@NOSERVER.gcn.cx> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b764a7ef905d00098968d@cp-news.centix.net… > In article <ceg72n$9b…@216.39.134.150@theriver.com>, > bckw…@theriver.com carefully typed… > > so, Celt, are you trying to say that you’re an atheist? Is that your > > argument against 12 steppers? Is so, just spit it out. We’re adults > > here….at least I am….so just what is it that you’re trying to say? > Not at all. I am most assuredly *NOT* atheist. I am pantheist, a view I
(deleted) So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. Eric
Response:
> So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. > Eric
What’s do you mean by that Eric? Dave.
Response:
"sway" <s…@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:410c0fb4@dnews.tpgi.com.au… > > So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. > > Eric > What’s do you mean by that Eric? Dave.
Sorry Dave, but seen I hadn’t a clue what a Pantheist was I looked it up and found a Pantheist is someone who believes that God and the universe are the same. Well there was me thinking it was obvious that God and the universe are the same thing. And then thinking that Celt was trying to bamboozle us with words, I tried to be sarcastic. I have to admit Celt is way ahead of me in the brains department, then again so are most people. Eric
Response:
"bckwrds" <bckw…@theriver.com> wrote in message
news:cehf6k$og6$0@216.39.135.26@theriver.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Not at all. I am most assuredly *NOT* atheist. I am pantheist, a view I > > have held more or less entire for a dozen years or so. In a rare burst > > of possesive excess I insist that it is *my* belief and you and anyone > > else will just have to go get their own. > So you worship "all" gods? Is there no "leader"? > > I’m trying to say that not only is it pointless to send atheists and non- > > Christians to a Christian based organisation, it’s insulting to even > > consider doing so. > I’ll agree with this…..I don’t think it’s possible to make, convert, > (insert > your term) anyone believe who just refuses to do so. > > Many of the atheists I know are atheist because they were abused in the > > name of religion as children. Suggesting they attend 12-steps is an > > extension of that abuse. > I was abused by a so-call pastor….but it was the man who was evil. > Even the church where he preached was clean. But the man was bad. > Different strokes for different folks…..that’s how I see it. I’ve learned > a lot of truths on my healing journey and I hope to learn a lot more. > Donna > > Apart from that it’s arrogant, judgmental and just plain rude – not > > healthy for anyone, especially people with PTSD, including atheists. > > I would protest exposing Christians to 12-steps on the grounds that it > > would only compound things for them. For the others I protest on the > > grounds that it smacks of subversive conversion *and* it would only > > compound things. > > I ought make it clear that I do not think Nancy is recruiting on behalf > > of religion. If she is, I apologise for my hasty assumption. > > I am trying to point out that alternative and non- believers are likely > > to be (rightfully) affronted. > > I don’t ‘like’ 12-steps because it is inherently ‘toxic’ and seriously > > flawed at several major and load-bearing junctions. > > I have nothing at all against 12-steppers, unless they begin to recruit. > > Even so, it isn’t that they try to recruit that I object to but who, > > *how* and why. > > The ‘herd’ mentality – which begins to take over when humans get together > > in groups – is vastly different from the individual mentality, even > > within the same individual. Therefore 12-steppers are not inherently > > bad, sick or devalued – by me at any rate. It’s my considered view that > > at worst they are most likely misguided and perhaps underinformed. > > There is no shame in being gulled by something that presents itself as > > pure, wholesome and good. > > Walk tall, > > Celt.
I tend to believe that it doesn’t matter what you believe in just as long as what you believe doesn’t do others any harm. Me? Although I believe the bible is an exaggerated story, I still chose the Christian way. The need to do good makes me feel good too. But my private belief is that there is not one living soul on this earth who has a clue to why we exist. I chose to believe that we are here to contribute our energy and knowledge to one source, (God.) I also believe that God is continually placing obstacles in our path so we can find a way round them in order to increase our intelligence. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if we soon discover that the speed of light isn’t constant, thus throwing Einstein’s theory of relativity out of the window. Eric
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > So you are The Pantheist. I knew one would appear one day. > > > Eric > > What’s do you mean by that Eric? Dave. > Sorry Dave, but seen I hadn’t a clue what a Pantheist was I looked it up and > found a Pantheist is someone who believes that God and the universe are the > same. Well there was me thinking it was obvious that God and the universe > are the same thing. And then thinking that Celt was trying to bamboozle us > with words, I tried to be sarcastic. I have to admit Celt is way ahead of me > in the brains department, then again so are most people. > Eric
You’re right mate, no worries at all
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Scuse the scissors mates.. > I tend to believe that it doesn’t matter what you believe in just as long as > what you believe doesn’t do others any harm. > But my private belief is that there is not one living soul on this earth who > has a clue to why we exist. > Eric
Eric, you have just disproven your ‘behind in the brains dept theory’! Well said digger Dave.
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"sway" <s…@yahoo.com> wrote in news:410cbca6@dnews.tpgi.com.au: >> Well there was me thinking it was obvious that God and the >> universe are the same thing. And then thinking that Celt was trying >> to bamboozle us with words, I tried to be sarcastic. I have to admit >> Celt is way ahead of > me >> in the brains department, then again so are most people. >> Eric > You’re right mate, no worries at all
Well, being a good Catholic boy Dragged to the Church by my Mother every bloody Sunday, buggering up a good weekend (we lived in the country, took 4 hours out of a Sunday) I have a different theory. On this planet there are different races, none quite the same. There have been sitings of UFO’s for centuries, so, how about an idea where a few planets got together and decided to habitate another planet with a mixture of humanoids and animals and see what happened. The rest is history, they keep coming back and piss off as quick as they arrived, and who would blame them. It’s a mess, mainly caused by religion and bias. The animals were a success in some areas, mixed races… okay, mixed beliefs NO! I shall take my pills and go to bed Nite all, Ron
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"Nancy" <kipc…@msn.com> wrote in message
news:hvfOc.1335$FW1.19@lakeread06… > Hi Celt! > >> That is one reason why I recommend 12 Step groups for those of us > >> with PTSD. 12 Steppers have created ways in their groups to reduce > >> the need to create anxiety in ourselves. > > I would question whether the 12-step movement truly is ideal for > > people with PTSD given that it is dependency-based, disempowering and > > does not aim at independent recovery. > That’s a fair point if you truly believe it. I only have > 20 years’ > experience in several 12 Step groups, so I don’t know all the answers, > but your assumptions above are a little off IMO.
I’ve known 2 people who have participated in 12 Steps and have had positive experiences there. There must be something to it if it was able to help them help themselves as much as they did. One has PTSD, the other one doesn’t.
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Hi Celt! >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt. > Nor am I, Nancy. It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > facts is futile.
—————large snip ————– >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > offered.
Not a chance! The VA only provides rentable rooms with chairs and a multitiude of vets with addictions. The groups run the same way that you describe below. > Where I live in Australia (and some other places both inside > and outside the US) the majority of 12-step groups are informal > affairs with ‘leadership’ passed down through other groupies. There is > no formal training involved; any groupie might be chosen to be > leader. This may well depend on how passionately they embrace their > program and group or rest on simply having ‘been there’. There is no > ‘management’ to ensure group stays within healthy boundaries. > It would be one thing to send people only to a professionally > monitored group but entirely another where quality control is non- > existent. In refusing to respond in any way to any of my points, I > have moved toward concluding that minor details like what *quality* of > group your targets will end up in are unlikely to trouble you to any > extent.
Targets? Is that how you view the folks on this ng? I expect also that you feel a need to define the ‘quality’ of a group. Very Hamiltonian of you. Reminds me of the question I heard from a prof in a MBA ethics course. Should all people be able to vote in an election or only landowners and educated folks? His opinion was that the ‘great unwashed masses’ make pretty good decisions in the USA … over time. Very Jeffersonian of him. ————–another snip————– > I’m not saying these are your motives, just letting on that this may > be how they will be interpreted by those already in the know. Atheists > not in the know will catch on within the first few meetings. Either > way, it’s unlikely to foster a good opinion of your behaviour and > perceived intent. Of course this doesn’t concern me directly at all; > I rather hoped it would concern you, though.
My motives do not require interpretation or perception of intent. I merely state what has worked for me. Usually I also say YMMV. I am content if you are willing to say what has worked for you, not what you so feared that you looked up an amazing amount of information (mostly fallacious, already debunked urban legends) to justify your avoidance. IME it is much easier to be authentic when talking about things I know and/or have discussed extensively with pros, rather than things someone with no experience on the subject has told me or written hysterically about. As always, YMMV. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
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In article <vjiPc.6660$FW1.1647@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Hi Celt! > >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt. > > Nor am I, Nancy. It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > > facts is futile. > —————large snip ————– > >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > > offered. > Not a chance! The VA only provides rentable rooms with chairs and a > multitiude of vets with addictions. The groups run the same way that you > describe below.
There were 6 blind men in the middle of a deserted carpark. They were hot and thirsty so they decided to go get a drink. To keep together and stay on track, each man took hold of another man’s shirt. And so, they set forth. Some time later a man approached. "What are you doing?" "Going for a drink" "How are you getting there?" "I’m following him" The man was silent for a long moment. Finally he spoke. "Where’s he going?" "He doesn’t know because none of us can see, but we know there are drinks to be had out there somewhere and we must be getting close ‘cos we’ve been walking for hours." Walk tall, Celt. — "If you can’t change your place, you gotta change your attitude." - ’The Kitchen God’s Wife’, Amy Tan. Remove .spamoff & noserver. to reply.
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"Celt" <celt.NOS…@NOSERVER.gcn.cx> wrote in message
news:MPG.1b78996daab29c7898968f@cp-news.centix.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <vjiPc.6660$FW1.1647@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully > typed… > > Hi Celt! > > >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > > >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt. > > > Nor am I, Nancy. It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > > > facts is futile. > > —————large snip ————– > > >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > > > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > > > offered. > > Not a chance! The VA only provides rentable rooms with chairs and a > > multitiude of vets with addictions. The groups run the same way that you > > describe below. > There were 6 blind men in the middle of a deserted carpark. They were > hot and thirsty so they decided to go get a drink. To keep together and > stay on track, each man took hold of another man’s shirt. And so, they > set forth. > Some time later a man approached. > "What are you doing?" > "Going for a drink" > "How are you getting there?" > "I’m following him" > The man was silent for a long moment. Finally he spoke. "Where’s he > going?" > "He doesn’t know because none of us can see, but we know there are drinks > to be had out there somewhere and we must be getting close ‘cos we’ve > been walking for hours."
I take it that you are suggesting that the leader needs to have sight. If so, the leader may turn out to be someone not to be trusted and intends to lead the other five men astray. If it were me who was one of those unfortunate blind people I would tend to stick with my blind mates until we all could taste the drink put in front of us. Its a bit like the before the "big bang" universe creationist theory where most people think that first there was this unimaginable endless space with something the size of a orange in the middle. And then in a split second the orange exploded to fill the empty space with matter. Not so.The common theory is that the only thing that existed before the "big bang" was the orange without the surrounding space. You see space was created after the "big bang" Now how does my analogy relate to those six blind men? Well in this case, first those men they were only six in number and the six of them were all on the same path sticking together until water came their way. Then after a drink they discussed the problem and set out on different paths to solve the water problem. And how does all relate to AA? First there is a group of people two discuss a common problem and then after learning something they set out on different paths for the common good. Not the other way around where there is one well meaning person devoid of the problem, armed with knowledge, who sets out to gather problematic together in order to help them. Bring the case, the only person to benefit is usually the well meaning person who may go on to form other groups of well meaning people to eventually exist by virtue off the problematic people. Now as Ron says, "I’ll take my meds" Eric
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"Eric" <EricNOS…@bigpond.com> wrote in news:tVnPc.28686$K53.12039@news-server.bigpond.net.au: > Now how does my analogy relate to those six blind men? > Well in this case, first those men they were only six in number and > the six of them were all on the same path sticking together until > water came their way. > Then after a drink they discussed the problem and set out on different > paths to solve the water problem. > Now as Ron says, "I’ll take my meds" > Eric
Saw an interesting article the other day, a bar has been set up for blind people, no lights, blind barmen and blind waiters. Those who can see are at a big disadvantage, as every one else is fine and enjoying them selves in complete darkness. I guess I can understand it, they are safe amongst themselves, and any robber who arrives has lost his big advantage, sight! Cheers, Ron
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In article <Xns9539C964454D9nof…@129.250.170.90>, Ron the Barbarian <Newsguy> says… > Saw an interesting article the other day, a bar has been set up for blind > people, no lights, blind barmen and blind waiters. Those who can see are > at a big disadvantage, as every one else is fine and enjoying them selves > in complete darkness. > I guess I can understand it, they are safe amongst themselves, and any > robber who arrives has lost his big advantage, sight!
Surely even the dimmest robber would take along a flashlight if he was going into a dark place? He wouldn’t even need to hide his face, and there would be no danger from security cameras. But I suggest that the blind people don’t do it for security, but rather so that they don’t feel like second-class citizens when they are having a bit of a relax in company. Peter
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In article <vjiPc.6660$FW1.1647@lakeread06>, kipc…@msn.com carefully typed… > Hi Celt! > >> > If you can refute any of these points, Nancy, please do so. > >> I am not interested in debating these points, Celt. > > Nor am I, Nancy. It is a commonly held belief that debating provable > > facts is futile. > —————large snip ————– > >> The VA supports the groups in Becksville, Ohio. > > Perhaps the VA also has some input into the *quality* of the program > > offered.
Dealt with elsewhere. <snip> > Targets? Is that how you view the folks on this ng?
What makes you think I think of them as targets? <snip> > I expect also that you feel a need to define the ‘quality’ of a group. > Very Hamiltonian of you.
I have no idea who ‘Hamilton’ is and care even less. The ‘quality’ of the group is in the results it achieves. How long to recover, how sound a recovery, what crutches remain afterwards – stuff like that. Another factor which might be taken into account is how many otherwise cheerful, productive *worthwhile* years are wasted in groups with not much more to show for it than small progress made even after *decades* of regular and religious attendance, ‘recovery’ that wobbles and crumbles every time life throws 3 spits at the back of the hand, and a continuing lifestyle that requires the group to sustain itself. > Reminds me of the question I heard from a prof in a MBA ethics course. > Should all people be able to vote in an election or only landowners and > educated folks?
Should ’sick’ people (using the image created by 12-steps) be allowed to manage and administer their own treatment? Or, to put it another way, should the blind lead each other across the street? Or do you mean 12- steps = ‘recovery’ for the stupid? > His opinion was that the ‘great unwashed masses’ make pretty good > decisions in the USA … over time.
Well, if I might be so bold as to make an assumption of my own, I shall assume you mean decisions like going to war or demanding ‘Fair’ Trade agreements with ‘Allies’ that take much from the ‘Ally’ and give all to the USA because their farmers cannot possibly support themselves if they play by the same trade conditions as, say, Australian farmers or Pacific Islanders and so we should, of course, subsidise them. Torturing prisoners. Dictating to countries on the basis of a *defence* agreement what plants may legally be grown within said country or possessed by its citizens. Imprisoning people for being where the US didn’t want them to be for *years* without laying one single charge, not even for spitting on the nice sergeant’s shiny boots. Tolerating a welfare system that leaves the aged and infirm living on the streets in any weather and quibbles over little things like whether poor people really *deserve* quality medical care they can’t pay for. Annihilating the political structure of another country because they don’t like the way they do business; bring war upon it’s citizenry based on a pack of lies and in defiance of the UN they voted to support; render the country a humanitarian nightmare with the people suffering worse hardship than under any kind of government, and still can’t seem to just mind their own business and at least wait to be *asked*. Inflicting religion (Christian only, thanks) on the world at large. Dictating market forces. Fighting over another country’s resources. And while I think of it, have you ever delved into the 9/11 conspiracy theories? Yup. I like those kind of decisions. *IF* I were a Yank. Ah, no hang on… the unwashed masses don’t do those things. They only elect the people who do. Was that *un*washed or *brain*washed? > Very Jeffersonian of him.
Heard of him, know about as much about him as I do about the other fellow, but care even less. > My motives do not require interpretation or perception of intent.
Well, see, that isn’t up to only you to decide. The person you have the exchange with also has the right, and ability, to form their own opinions of why you chose to throw them at 12-steps. These opinions may not be correct, may even be blatant assumptions and quite possibly have absolutely *no* basis in fact apart from that they were influenced by reminders of an unhappy childhood. Never-the-less, they will be as valid to their owner as any of their other opinions. > I merely state what has worked for me. Usually I also say YMMV.
For the most part, this is good common sense and the best way to support people, with a few minor refinements. I formulated this list by imagining (from my recovered perspective) the things I thought I’d like to know or consider important, were you referring me (as a suffering survivor) to 12-steps:- * Be honest about how long it takes. * Be honest about recovery goals – like do they help define any at all? * Be honest about how ‘good’ the recovery is and how much freedom and inner peace you really have in your recovered life. * Be honest about whether you have been able to maintain your recovery without some kind of prop (med, person, professional, group, eg) how long for, and what changes it made to your life. For example, you might say something like: "Group helped me so much I was able to move on to recovery after a couple of years. I found I could function quite well even without group and didn’t bother to go for [YEARS]. Then after [event] I decided to go back to group to see if I had anything to offer from my experience." * Be honest about the level and number of recovery successes within the group as a whole. * Be honest about the downsides. Things like – "the groups in your area might be run by a bunch of clueless people who just don’t really want to grow up" or "take care that the AlAnon in your area hasn’t been taken over by a manipulative and malicious power-freak bitch", "be aware that if a really charming sociopath wants to set up a group, nobody can stop him" or even "… study found that in my state [XX%] of groups were run by people with co-dependent personalities." * Encourage people to only attend groups that you yourself would either attend or vouch for personally. I say these things because another’s recovery is a thing to be respected – more, even, than one’s own. IMO. > I am content if you are willing to say what has worked for you,
Well, I’m pleased to read that Nancy. I do hope it meets your expectations of quality control. What worked for me was steering the hell clear of any 12-steps group and being responsible for myself. You can quote me. > not what you so feared
Are you sure you got that from me? If so, how? Nancy, I told you before. I read those books before I even knew what 12- steps was. After I read those books I knew the words "12-steps" but was still none the wiser. I can’t fear something I don’t know about. Those books were not about 12-steps at all. Those books were about how to spot abuse and how to think like a healthy, rational, happy, peaceful, confident, mature adult. As a result, I spotted 12-steps straight off as abusing my right to a rapid recovery. I learned that even the original founding members (15 or more years on – yup, ’til death do they part) were still ‘victims’ and had nothing to offer toward recovery, but were walking encyclopedias about how to cope in a rough spot. I ended up not feeling very comfortable because I had too many real solutions that meant giving up group one day and I got rather weary of seeing those pained looks. It was either that or lie and I feel even less comfortable with that. I have read, in my entire life, ONE book that dealt specifically with 12- steps and ONE other book which covered toxic ‘recovery’ programs, including 12-steps. I read both of those sometime during the past year – a long time (several years) after I had decided by other means that 12- steps were poison, to be avoided at all costs and their members too while they were under the groupie spell. > that you looked up an amazing amount of information
I should like to point out that I have not told you exactly how many books I read in total (I couldn’t because even I don’t know), nor could you have any idea how much information I gleaned from them. Please do not disguise lies as accusations or assumptions and throw them at me. Abusers do that kind of thing to me. I was not ‘looking up’ anything. I was aiming at at recovering as far as I was able within 12 months. The books literally landed in my lap. I did nothing to seek them out beyond reading the back cover out of casual curiosity, getting hooked and going from there. There really *are* books out there that can immunise a person against 12- steps for life while barely making mention of it and then usually in the preface or closing chapters. They didn’t have to debunk group, it did that very thoroughly for itself. > (mostly fallacious, already debunked urban legends)
Again, I haven’t told you *which* books I read (and again, I mostly can’t anyway), so you have no way of knowing yourself if that statement is true. Please do not tell me lies about myself because I will recognise them instantly as lies. People with PhD’s are usually far too busy to be writing urban legends. I think it’s a stunning coincidence that so many of them agree with each other, too. Hang on, I don’t believe in coincidences. > to justify your avoidance.
I, um… What have I said or even implied that warrants this? Avoid what? I’m recovered, Nancy. I was recovered 2 years before I even knew that the thing called ‘AA’ that I’d suddenly started hearing about (through friends) was one of these ‘12-step groups’. I had no reason to avoid anything. I can’t avoid something I don’t know about, simple as that. I sincerely hope this doesn’t mean you think recovered people are the same as suffering survivors, just with … read more »
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