Trauma – PTSD

Question:

I suffer from major depressive disorder. I had a depressive breakdown 17 years ago and again 14 years ago. Second time was very difficult and it took a long time to recover. I had another depressive incident 5 years ago but it was treated quickly with medication and no breakdown occurred. My question is – can the experience of breakdown itself cause PTSD? I have never reconciled myself to what happened during these breakdowns and what it felt like. Thanks for any thoughts.

Response:

Hi brizzolatti! > I suffer from major depressive disorder. I had a depressive breakdown > 17 years ago and again 14 years ago. Second time was very difficult > and it took a long time to recover. I had another depressive incident > 5 years ago but it was treated quickly with medication and no > breakdown occurred. > My question is – can the experience of breakdown itself cause PTSD? I > have never reconciled myself to what happened during these breakdowns > and what it felt like. > Thanks for any thoughts.

Well, those more knowledgeable than I haven’t posted a response, so I will wade into this one. Firstly, I’m sorry that you have had these experiences.  Depression sucks. Secondly, I don’t know, from my own experience, if one (or more) depressive incident breakdown(s) can cause PTSD. IME, depression and PTSD can be co-diagnoses … I have no idea which came first: the chicken or the egg. For a PTSD diagnosis (or not) to ‘clear the air’ for yourself, I suggest you see a psychiatrist or therapist who specializes in PTSD and ask if you have it … there are a series of tests which they can administer to make a determination.  If you do have PTSD they can also provide chemical and talk therapies to help you with it in the future.  If you do not have PTSD, they can probably suggest some help for you to learn to stop fearing another breakdown. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

I’m not an expert either and it sounds like brizz has been through some tough times but I have to defend the ptsd label as belonging to someone who has been in a very traumatic event such as is well defined in the criterion. "The person has been exposed to a traumatic event in which both of the following were present: the person experienced, witnessed, or was confronted with an event or events that involved actual or threatened death or serious injury, or a threat to the physical integrity of self or others. the person’s response involved intense fear, helplessness, or horror." I think going to a professional will hopefully give you the answers.

Response:

As a chronic ptsd sufferer, I’d agree that the definition is a pretty good guide, without wishing in any way to diminish the posters experiences.                       Andy An ‘appy day with Fuzzy on the rush Will last an ‘ealthy Tommy for a year.

Response:

When I first experienced PTSD I met someone with the same memory and concentration problems and numbness etc.  She had just had a breakdown. I was often told I hadnt got PTSD because I didnt have a life threatening episode.  I just had a mind-threatening episode and like a lot of other cult survivors (alt.cult) I have the same concentration, memory problems etc. Recently a psychiatrist described my symptoms as hypervigilence. If you can find an EMDR book, they define PTSD as being caused by anything that was sufficiently terrible for you, whatever it was. In other words, if it looks like PTSD, sounds like PTSD … it is PTSD. I feel really angry with psychologists who go by book definitions and dont look at the cases in the real world. Estelle Estelle

Response:

Diagnosis for any mental condition is made from the DSM IV, not an EMDR handbook, which is very narrow in scope. PTSD is unique in that it requires an actual event or events to cause it. You may have several symtoms that are similar to those of PTSD, but it doen’t necessarily mean you have PTSD. That is because the therapy programs for PTSD are unique in that they are centered on resolving the traumatic incidents. (in effect "getting over it") I have been in treatment for almost three years. I lived with the sympyoms completely unawares. It finally broke me. The first therapist I had specialized in Police/Veteran PTSD and was a great help. Unfortunately he had a stroke and never returned to work. The therapist I am seeing now is a "general practicioner" and has a hard time dealing with me (in his own words). PTSD is unique among mental disorders in that there must be  an incident along with a constellation of symptomology and a the symptoms must persist for a long period of time. It isn’t easy or pretty to get PTSD. It’s the kind of thing can totally disable a youg strong healthy man/woman. Fighting the good fight day by day, Kenn Capman In article <20020225144228.16743.00000…@mb-fv.aol.com>, EddaB – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<ed…@aol.com> wrote: > When I first experienced PTSD I met someone with the same memory and > concentration problems and numbness etc.  She had just had a breakdown. > I was often told I hadnt got PTSD because I didnt have a life threatening > episode.  I just had a mind-threatening episode and like a lot of other cult > survivors (alt.cult) I have the same concentration, memory problems etc. > Recently a psychiatrist described my symptoms as hypervigilence. > If you can find an EMDR book, they define PTSD as being caused by anything > that > was sufficiently terrible for you, whatever it was. > In other words, if it looks like PTSD, sounds like PTSD … it is PTSD. > I feel really angry with psychologists who go by book definitions and dont > look > at the cases in the real world. > Estelle > Estelle

Response:

Hi Kenn! > Diagnosis for any mental condition is made from the DSM IV, not an EMDR > handbook, which is very narrow in scope.

OK > PTSD is unique in that it requires an actual event or events to cause > it. You may have several symtoms that are similar to those of PTSD, but > it doen’t necessarily mean you have PTSD.

OK > That is because the therapy programs for PTSD are unique in that they > are centered on resolving the traumatic incidents. (in effect "getting > over it")

You’ve lost me if you are trying to say that surviving therapeutic abuse or a cult or child abuse is not PTSD-causing.  Of course it is, IME.  What’s the difference between being assaulted with a gun or with a fist or with a penis or with an ongoing series of words (including threats)?  Not much, in my book. > I have been in treatment for almost three years. I lived with the > sympyoms completely unawares. It finally broke me.

Been there, done that for slightly longer. :/ > The first therapist I had specialized in Police/Veteran PTSD and was a > great help. Unfortunately he had a stroke and never returned to work. > The therapist I am seeing now is a "general practicioner" and has a > hard time dealing with me (in his own words).

If he has a hard time dealing with you, maybe he is suggesting you find someone more experienced than he who specializes in PTSD. > PTSD is unique among mental disorders in that there must be an > incident along with a constellation of symptomology and a the symptoms > must persist for a long period of time. > It isn’t easy or pretty to get PTSD. > It’s the kind of thing can totally disable a youg strong healthy > man/woman.

I agree.  It can also totally disable an old man/woman. Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy

Response:

Hi Kenn. Very small children can get PTSD from sheer neglect. That is, to a small child, a life- threatening situation. When they grow up, they’ll have no memory of what caused their PTSD, and their flashbacks will be impossible to understand, as they stem from a mind that has a different perception than adults: No language, among other things. That’s the case with me. It makes me angry to see you tell me that you, with your 3 years in therapy, know and can second diagnose me. I prefer to believe in my psychiatrist, my psychotherapist since 18 years, and my own experience of chronic PTSD since 1978. I’ve been in traumatic situations many times, bad enough to give anyone PTSD. But I entered into them, because I didn’t know security. The one traumatic event that finally did it was just one in an endless row of stupidities that I let myself get exposed to, and I refuse to blame that one event for my condition. Lotte "Kenn Capman" <si…@earthlinkNOSPAM.net> skrev i meddelandet news:260220021526051742%sir54@earthlinkNOSPAM.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Diagnosis for any mental condition is made from the DSM IV, not an EMDR > handbook, which is very narrow in scope. > PTSD is unique in that it requires an actual event or events to cause > it. You may have several symtoms that are similar to those of PTSD, but > it doen’t necessarily mean you have PTSD. > That is because the therapy programs for PTSD are unique in that they > are centered on resolving the traumatic incidents. (in effect "getting > over it") > I have been in treatment for almost three years. I lived with the > sympyoms completely unawares. It finally broke me. > The first therapist I had specialized in Police/Veteran PTSD and was a > great help. Unfortunately he had a stroke and never returned to work. > The therapist I am seeing now is a "general practicioner" and has a > hard time dealing with me (in his own words). > PTSD is unique among mental disorders in that there must be  an > incident along with a constellation of symptomology and a the symptoms > must persist for a long period of time. > It isn’t easy or pretty to get PTSD. > It’s the kind of thing can totally disable a youg strong healthy > man/woman. > Fighting the good fight day by day, > Kenn Capman > In article <20020225144228.16743.00000…@mb-fv.aol.com>, EddaB > <ed…@aol.com> wrote: > > When I first experienced PTSD I met someone with the same memory and > > concentration problems and numbness etc.  She had just had a breakdown. > > I was often told I hadnt got PTSD because I didnt have a life threatening > > episode.  I just had a mind-threatening episode and like a lot of other cult > > survivors (alt.cult) I have the same concentration, memory problems etc. > > Recently a psychiatrist described my symptoms as hypervigilence. > > If you can find an EMDR book, they define PTSD as being caused by anything > > that > > was sufficiently terrible for you, whatever it was. > > In other words, if it looks like PTSD, sounds like PTSD … it is PTSD. > > I feel really angry with psychologists who go by book definitions and dont > > look > > at the cases in the real world. > > Estelle > > Estelle

Response:

embies wrote: >I’m not a regular around here, and I’m a bit nervous putting out this >somewhat different position,

I’ll support your position embies. I’ve seen your posts here and in other newsgroups I read. You give level-headed, well thought out responses. >I’ve had breakdowns and they >increased my ptsd symptoms, easpecially being in the hospital and being in >a vulnerable state of mind. also, seeing ppl being taken down, drugged, >etc. to me, some of that was secondary trauma.

I’ve had some of that happen to me, when it wasn’t necessary, because it was how staff controlled patients-fear and intimidation. It didn’t work very well on me, ’cause not much intimidates me. It just pisses me off and I go out afterward and get those people relieved of their jobs. I can see where it would be VERY traumatic to someone who has never been in that situation before or who is feeling particularly vulnerable. I don’t think anyone can definitively say that this situation can cause PTSD and that one can’t. It’s certainly worth seeing a psychiatrist or psychologist for a diagnostic interview. And it’s always helpful to keep in mind that a correct diagnosis can take several tries to narrow down. Risa My cats only let me live here because I pay the rent.

Response:

Hi there! I’m not sure, but I wonder if not some of the rougher symptoms could aggravate your PTSD. Read the "A common PTSD experience" posts: IME, some of those night frights and lucid dreams are the worst experiences I’ve been through, and the very real feeling of believing you’re dying could well set something off. For the rest, I second Risa’s and embie’s post, and embie: Don’t be afraid to post here, please. Be welcome. We’ve had some trouble in the past, but we’re trying to deal with it. Lotte

Response:

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