Question:
morine wrote: > Hi Ron and Jeremy’s Dad > I hope you don’t mind me interrupting here. > I am finding this thread interesting > and thanks for the references you inject into the dialogue. > I’ve begun posting in this news group today and recognise much of what you > are both talking about. > I have something to add and hope this isn’t intruding:- > I am finding the ideas and references that both of you present here to be > helpful > thanks!
Morine, Nancy put it best when she was talking about AA meetings and breaking the cycle. People, like myself, who are raised with violent outbursts being made okay in some way, will very often go on to repeat that pattern. So that makes me wonder, did my father and other abusers have PTSD too, or no one taught me appropriate ways to deal with anger and rage. I’m glad that you are finding some things helpful.
Response:
Jeremy’s Dad wrote: > In any case, I’m going to print it out and read it again to see what > there’s to see. I’d love to hear from others here on in private > e-mail about their take on the article.
I’ve been there far too many times to remember. One dominant emotion for me that took years to recognize was powerlessness. Fight, or flight, and feeling "cornered" set me off. I would be even more enraged when someone said "did the dishes do something wrong."
Response:
Hi Jeremy’s Dad and Ron! > > >This isn’t about you personally. I was talking about the behavior, and trying > > >to point out that this will affect your son. > > Of course it’s about me Ron. You addressed it to me and spoke > > specifically of my behaviour. This is what you wrote… > I won’t argue the point, or try to convince you of a difference.
IMO it takes a lot of hubris to sharp-shoot each other on this ng. If I didn’t haven ‘too much’ remorse for what had happened in my life as a result of trauma, I wouldn’t have PTSD. I think that posting our ‘wins’ and our ‘losses’ on this ng is important in sharing recovery ideas. I, for one, don’t like to post my ‘losses’, especially if I know that someone is going to sharp-shoot me and my reactions, many of which I still have not learned to control ‘better’. Feeling that I need to hide my losses in order to feel better about myself is not conducive to PTSD recovery. Actually, I’m not sure which came first: secondary traumas or innappropriate remorse. I am glad that Jeremy’s Dad said what he said above in such a rational manner. I could not have done so. I would have been off into the ozone with such a personal attack, and probably eventually been able to post ‘thank you for sharing’. It’s nice to be gentle with each other. 
Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
Ron, > > In any case, I’m going to print it out and read it again to see what > > there’s to see. I’d love to hear from others here on in private > > e-mail about their take on the article. > I’ve been there far too many times to remember. One dominant emotion > for me that took years to recognize was powerlessness. Fight, or > flight, and feeling "cornered" set me off. I would be even more > enraged when someone said "did the dishes do something wrong."
Salt in the wounds huh? Sarcasm when someone is obviously upset is baffling to me. It seems to serve to distract from the issue at hand. It would seem so much easier to deal with the issue straight on wouldn’t it? Thanks for responding Gary Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Response:
morine, Nice to see you here and get another point of view added to th emix. > ‘numbing of responsivenes" a form of passive resistance perhaps? > Numbing of responsiveness, perhaps even a form of emotional ‘flight’ > to me, this ’shutting down’ sounds like an energy saving > mechanism or perhaps technique, > or perhaps, if we look at this alternatively, > energy building, perhaps in preparation for possible ‘fight’.
Cool, there’s a thought I had not even considered. I have always viewed the numbing as a form of defensive retreat. I hadn’t thought of "live to fight another day". Is that what you’re saying? > possibly the bursts of ‘intermittent hyperarousal’ might be a > mechanism to release the energy that might be building in > the ‘numbing of responsiveness’phase,
Makes me think of the pressure cooker idea. I need to learn ways to effectively take the "edge" off the stress in order to prevent a bigger bloout. > just guesses, or perhaps just delving into my own experience.
They make sense to me. Either they’re right or we’re both in need of enlightenment <warm smile>. > Also ‘conditional traumatic stimuli’ is an important point here, I > would say conditional on the memory, or the impact and significance > of the stimuli that first caused the trauma.
So that in cases of stress that are not reminiscent of past traumatic events, the "effect" is not the same as in cases where it is? That too makes some sense to me. I have been told I dealt well with stressful situations when I did not find them to be so. On th eother hand, I have had other cases where I can’t think of an association but reacted in ways that were out of proportion to the actual stress. Hmmm… > For myself a significant ‘conditional traumatic stimuli’ is the > feeling of being ‘trapped’. This includes caustrophobia, in closed > conditions.{Took my husband 6 years to convince me that we should > marry ;-)}
HUGE GRIN. I sometimes tease my wife by saying I am 13 years into a life sentence <giggle>. I willingly committed myself to her and to this marriage and can say that it’s the best darn thing I ever did. Katie has been my security, my root and my motivation to change and grow. I love her with all that I have and can’t imagine me being without her. > the bit where ya go "I’m just fine thanks, how are you doing?" > is the bit where you realise the inappropriateness of the outburst > and one attempts to redeem the self somewhat, making light of an > otherwise horrendous situation.
While I have had that experience as well. On a couple of occassions, I have also had myself not recognize how I had reacted or why/how it was inappropriate to the situation till I was able to look at it again later. > > "The loss of affective modulation that is so central in PTSD mayhelp > > explain the observation that traumatized people lose the capacity to > > utilize affect states as signals (18). > I’m a bit lost with this, is "affects state" the same as ‘triggers’?
"Affect" is pyschological jargon that refers to the emotionional state. I understood that sentence to be addressing our "normal" ability to "sense" what is going on. Some discussion was held here a couple of years back about a book (can’t remember the name, does anyone else?) that spoke about learning to trust those "intuitions" that tell us something is about to go wrong. I understood that sentence to mean that those with PTSD don’t have the ability to "listen" to those messages. Does that help? A following sentence then states this… > > Instead of using feelings as cues to attend to incoming > > information, in people with PTSD arousal is likely to precipitate > > flight or fight reactions (19). Thus, they are prone to go > > immediately from stimulus to response without making the > > necessary psychological assessment of the meaning of what is going > > on. This makes them prone to freeze, or, alternatively, to > > overreact and intimidate others in response to minor provocations
This was the point I was making to Ron about the lack of time to "reason" an appropriate response. > well I never thought "I’m gonna die" that doesn’t come into it for me. > It’s more like, "push me and I’ll push you harder" sometimes, > but most of the time, its’ "push me and I’ll bend to set you off > balance" 
So then, does this still fit within what you see as the "Fight/Flight" model? Your "bending" is a "fight" tactic? Does this have some measure of being out of control as well? That was the point I was addressing, th elack of time to "plan" a response. For me, it’s purely instinctive, no thinking involved. > Noise is not a problem for me, danger of physical or emotional abusive > threat to myself or my family is what does it for me. > Although if i have had extended contact with anxiety causing > stimulus, then I can become jumpy with sudden noise.
Back to the pressure cooker concept huh? > > "Kolb (29) was the first to propose that excessive stimulation of > > the CNS at the time of the trauma may result in permanent neuronal > > changes that have a negative effect on learning, habituation, and > > stimulus discrimination. These neuronal changes would not depend on > > actual exposure to reminders of the trauma for expression. The > > abnormal startle response characteristic of PTSD (10) exemplifies > > such neuronal changes. " > Does anyone know if this has anything to do with adrenalin? > I have been in various emergency situations and felt the rush of > adrenalin, where an emergency response kicks in and we react without > thought, with heightened response time. It is the same rush that > comes with extreme anxiety attack coupled with shakes, increased > heart rate, sweat.
That makes sense to me. I’m no medical expert (Lea, can you give a medical perspective on what morine and I are addressing in this paragraph? Is adrenaline part of the picture here?) but I think that’s the ticket. > > Hmm, this article has a lot of gems in it. Anybody interested in a > > "group study" of it to see what it means to us? > This is all new to me, I’m not really sure what group study entails, > my knowledge of PTSD is limited, I don’t much like ‘labels’. I can > only tell you what I have experienced.
I used that phrase only to mean that some of us might like to join together and discuss the article. As in this discussion, we can sometimes afford different perspectives to each other. > and I have also recently read that PTSD is similar to battle fatigue, > I had great uncles who had that, came back from the war broken men, > perhaps the propensity toward it runs in families.
My research when first diagnosed (Coming up on 4 years ago) revealed that PTSD is the current term for what was previously called "Shell Shock" and "Battle Fatigue". > > Maybe a synthesis of our responses to the article may be of > > interest to David? > I hope you wont think me rude in asking who’s David?
David Baldwin is a pyschologist who has an excellent series of pages that deal with PTSD. The article I was discussing is on his site. Nice chatting with you morine. Thanks for jumping in Gary Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -morine wrote: > Ron Nicholson <ba…@home.com> wrote in message > news:3A4C7DAA.E2A6C01D@home.com… > > morine wrote: > > > Hi Ron and Jeremy’s Dad > > > I hope you don’t mind me interrupting here. > > > I am finding this thread interesting > > > and thanks for the references you inject into the dialogue. > > > I’ve begun posting in this news group today and recognise much of what > you > > > are both talking about. > > > I have something to add and hope this isn’t intruding:- > > > I am finding the ideas and references that both of you present here to > be > > > helpful > > > thanks! > > Morine, > > Nancy put it best when she was talking about AA meetings and breaking the > > cycle. People, like myself, who are raised with violent outbursts being > made > > okay in some way, will very often go on to repeat that pattern. > > So that makes me wonder, did my father and other abusers have PTSD too, or > no > > one taught me appropriate ways to deal with anger and rage. > > I’m glad that you are finding some things helpful. > I have just within the past hour or so, been thinking along the lines of > what you posted there. > Yes I think you are quite correct. > My Mother was badly burnt when she was 5, they thought she might not live > and significant parts of her body are still scarred from the thigh to the > ribcage. > She has always dealt with rage in the most extreme manner and ‘keyed’ us up > in the events. > Also she often comments how much more interesting life is when it goes from > one extreme to the next. How it’s so marvellous to have ‘highs’ and ‘lows’. > Kind of like going from the ‘basement’ to the ‘rafters’ in one leap. She has > tremendous ‘highs’ then crashes into a massive abyss. So when there is an > important occassion looming or a social or family event, there are massive > flurries of preparation, ‘rehearsal’ and ‘lead up’ to the occassion, which > we were all dragged into and expected to accomodate that level of > ‘excitement’ enthusiasm and ‘anticipation’ so by the time the event came we > were usually massively ‘wound up’ on her ‘high’. Then after the occassions > we usually were expected to join her in the plummet to the abyss and pick up > the pieces somehow. > I think she looks upon ‘it’ as living ‘passionately’, so she thrives on ‘it’ > in some way and expects that we will ‘thrive’ on it also, however I failed > to ‘thrive’ on the ‘extremes’. > She also often commented about how mundane the lives are of those who > -don’t- lurch from one extreme to the other. > So the comments were also setting us up mentally and emotional to seek the > same ‘charge’. I dropped out of that ‘patterning’ > one of my brothers continued the ‘patterning’ and became an abuser of > substances, he never examined any of this. Indeed, he and I only started > discussing this type of issue last year. > Well, again I thank you. > What is really helpful is learning that there are others who share similar > experience and to put a ‘name’ to it. > I’ve been calling it ‘burnout’ and also ‘battle fatigue’ > because, to me, that is what it felt like and I’d heard of similar things > in Uncles who were at war. > thanks
I’m glad that I was of some help. Being aware is half the battle.
Response:
Hi Ron! > > IMO it takes a lot of hubris to sharp-shoot each other on this ng. > Was telling me my actions were abusive, sharp-shooting? I don’t think if > someone spoke of their outbursts that involved hitting someone or damaging > public property that you would sit back and say nothing, or encourage them to > continue?
I did neither. My support was for Jeremy’s Dad’s measured response to your attack. I understood completely that he was NOT bragging about his startle response, but relaying that, try as we might, in the parenting business we sometimes fail … and PTSD symptoms are just one of the reasons. As to my sharp-shooting your comments … at this point, as you still seem to be clueless … if you cannot stand the heat, get out of the kitchen (c) Harry S. Truman (I think) Smile and there will be something to smile about! Nancy
Response:
Ron Nicholson <ba…@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A4C7DAA.E2A6C01D@home.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> morine wrote: > > Hi Ron and Jeremy’s Dad > > I hope you don’t mind me interrupting here. > > I am finding this thread interesting > > and thanks for the references you inject into the dialogue. > > I’ve begun posting in this news group today and recognise much of what you > > are both talking about. > > I have something to add and hope this isn’t intruding:- > > I am finding the ideas and references that both of you present here to be > > helpful > > thanks! > Morine, > Nancy put it best when she was talking about AA meetings and breaking the > cycle. People, like myself, who are raised with violent outbursts being made > okay in some way, will very often go on to repeat that pattern. > So that makes me wonder, did my father and other abusers have PTSD too, or no > one taught me appropriate ways to deal with anger and rage. > I’m glad that you are finding some things helpful.
I have just within the past hour or so, been thinking along the lines of what you posted there. Yes I think you are quite correct. My Mother was badly burnt when she was 5, they thought she might not live and significant parts of her body are still scarred from the thigh to the ribcage. She has always dealt with rage in the most extreme manner and ‘keyed’ us up in the events. Also she often comments how much more interesting life is when it goes from one extreme to the next. How it’s so marvellous to have ‘highs’ and ‘lows’. Kind of like going from the ‘basement’ to the ‘rafters’ in one leap. She has tremendous ‘highs’ then crashes into a massive abyss. So when there is an important occassion looming or a social or family event, there are massive flurries of preparation, ‘rehearsal’ and ‘lead up’ to the occassion, which we were all dragged into and expected to accomodate that level of ‘excitement’ enthusiasm and ‘anticipation’ so by the time the event came we were usually massively ‘wound up’ on her ‘high’. Then after the occassions we usually were expected to join her in the plummet to the abyss and pick up the pieces somehow. I think she looks upon ‘it’ as living ‘passionately’, so she thrives on ‘it’ in some way and expects that we will ‘thrive’ on it also, however I failed to ‘thrive’ on the ‘extremes’. She also often commented about how mundane the lives are of those who -don’t- lurch from one extreme to the other. So the comments were also setting us up mentally and emotional to seek the same ‘charge’. I dropped out of that ‘patterning’ one of my brothers continued the ‘patterning’ and became an abuser of substances, he never examined any of this. Indeed, he and I only started discussing this type of issue last year. Well, again I thank you. What is really helpful is learning that there are others who share similar experience and to put a ‘name’ to it. I’ve been calling it ‘burnout’ and also ‘battle fatigue’ because, to me, that is what it felt like and I’d heard of similar things in Uncles who were at war. thanks
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -BaliKris wrote: > Ron wrote: > > I also wrote a few pointers > >in "anger outburst" > >I do hope that you don’t take this personally, > Well I too have a problem with you RON and I can put it in a few words here. > Whether or not you can hear it is another story and entirely up to you. Your > arrogance in providing "pointers" is acting like a therapist (hated by me and > others here). Your last, qualifying, statement about not taking it personally > is just over the top. You probably cannot see that but it is patently > outrageous! > Yep I’m sick of you on here pedaling your high and mightiness and tips for us > shitty PTSD-in-the-holers. I would be one of those, in my hole, with a > CHEMICALLY caused depression and still miserable. Damn i’m so sick of you > here. > Kristine
I’ve limited myself to speaking about behaviours. I’m sorry if you don’t see a difference. Enough said. I’ll continue to give advice, or to point abusive behaviours, or to simply encourage someone when they have a bad day.
Response:
Nancy wrote: > Hi Jeremy’s Dad and Ron! > > > >This isn’t about you personally. I was talking about the behavior, and > trying > > > >to point out that this will affect your son. > > > Of course it’s about me Ron. You addressed it to me and spoke > > > specifically of my behaviour. This is what you wrote… > > I won’t argue the point, or try to convince you of a difference. > IMO it takes a lot of hubris to sharp-shoot each other on this ng.
Was telling me my actions were abusive, sharp-shooting? I don’t think if someone spoke of their outbursts that involved hitting someone or damaging public property that you would sit back and say nothing, or encourage them to continue? I have addressed your point, not you specifically.
Response:
Gary, thanks for writing and sharing. I know what ya mean about a houseful. I can’t even handle one visitor lately. I warned husband before our sdaughter (whom I love and doesn’t feel threatening at ALL) came to visit that I’d have a hard time. Well lo and behold it was hard. Add to that her need to talk to me about her own early sexual abuse. My god I was a wreck when she was here. But I survived! I slept a lot, things came to a head and I owned up to my mental problems. She understood, which is good because she was ready to pack it in and leave for feeling so unwanted. She really upset me with talking about her abuse. But I am more of a mother to her than her own is, so she needed me. It was hard. Tomorrow my lovely Borderline Personality mom comes for a short visit. Sigh. She is trying to understand PTSD but can only get some of it. She’s a piece of work alright. I’ve mended with her as much as can be, but just having her in the house (anyone!) is hard for me. I can totally relate to your feelings and would be completely unable to handle a houseful of people. Even on all the drugs I’m on! You’re doing great, planning on the breaks you need (don’t forget bathroom breaks…claim you have a stomach flu Hehehehe.) I can’t stand drinking and drunken behavior (big trigger) so I do wish you well =/ I will read the article when I can get to a better computer at the library. Would you mind sending me the link in an email so I can open it there? Our browser sucks and our computer is just a 75 Megahertz dinosaur. Now that I’m approved for SSDI I hope we can change that!! Best wishes and encouragement for the coming days. I made it and am on the other side but it was hell. You’ll make it too =) Kristine The unexamined life is not worth living – Socrates -good point Socrates- What about my over-examined one that interferes with living?!?
Response:
Ron wrote: > I also wrote a few pointers >in "anger outburst" >I do hope that you don’t take this personally,
Well I too have a problem with you RON and I can put it in a few words here. Whether or not you can hear it is another story and entirely up to you. Your arrogance in providing "pointers" is acting like a therapist (hated by me and others here). Your last, qualifying, statement about not taking it personally is just over the top. You probably cannot see that but it is patently outrageous! Yep I’m sick of you on here pedaling your high and mightiness and tips for us shitty PTSD-in-the-holers. I would be one of those, in my hole, with a CHEMICALLY caused depression and still miserable. Damn i’m so sick of you here. Kristine
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Gary, thanks for posting what you did on the physiological stuff. I DO forget my reaction "tendency" (or whatever you wanna call it.) I react so quickly to noises and other things that it feels like I can’t control it. Blaming myself is usually the route I go, but I have to re-examine my physiological response (as my doc says) based on my wiring. Thank you….Kristine The unexamined life is not worth living – Socrates -good point Socrates- What about my over-examined one that interferes with living?!?
Response:
Kristine, Good to see your name here again. I like you and like hearing what you have to say. As you and I have both commented before, we do seem to have a common outlook on many things. <warm smile> >Gary, thanks for posting what you did on the physiological stuff. I DO forget >my reaction "tendency" (or whatever you wanna call it.) I react so quickly to >noises and other things that it feels like I can’t control it. Blaming myself >is usually the route I go, but I have to re-examine my physiological response >(as my doc says) based on my wiring.
Do you plan on having a read of the article? It’s a bit long so I plan on segmenting it and reading a bit at time (I can handle only so much information before it turns into gobbley gook!) and reading the full article again. It has some stuff that makes some sense to me in what I have read so far. I may find some extra stuff to think over and/or to review with my therapist. In any case, I’m off to one of the toughest gatherings of the year this evening. My wife’s family all comes to town at Christmas and at the end of August for a family shindog. Lot’s of kids, lot’s of noise, too much drinking from a few folks, throw in a few loud arguments (once the drinking get’s going of course) and good natured ribbing and I’m history for a few days. Sleep comes hard and the hypervigilance is hard to get under control. The "busyness" of it all is to hard for me to keep track off so I find myself getting more and more stressed as the gathering goes on. As the description in the article explains, I am faced with "stimuli reminiscent of the trauma" (Cool! I’m an academic description <giggle>) and up go the shields and sensors. My wife and I have talked about it and I have learned to take little breaks from the scene. I frequently zip outside for a walk or go to the kitchen to tidy up (You think Icould do that more often during the rest of the year?! <giggle>) to take the edge of things. I find it very taxing to keep track of all the activities with 20 to 30 people there but the hypervigilance won’t let go. So, I’m in constant "threat analysis" mode. Sigh…. Hmm, time to get the boy in the bath and get the clothes laid out for us all. Will chat with you again soon Kris. Take Care friend Gary
Response:
Jeremy’s Dad wrote: > Ron, > First, let me note that in order to save space (bandwidth for our > European friends who pay dearly for it), I have edited parts of your > response. This was done solely to show those parts of the message that > I wanted to address and should not imply any attempt to misquote or > manipulate your comments. Now that I’ve passed my disclaimers <grin>, > I’ll go on and make them pay for my ramblings instead <HUGE grin>. > >This isn’t about you personally. I was talking about the behavior, and trying > >to point out that this will affect your son. > Of course it’s about me Ron. You addressed it to me and spoke > specifically of my behaviour. This is what you wrote…
I won’t argue the point, or try to convince you of a difference. > >> >I just want to add here that while this a great way to help your son not > >> >to feel responsible, it may also have the effect of teaching him how to > >> >deal with his own anger. I don’t think it benefits children to excuse the > >> >adults lack of control by attributing it to PTSD or any other diagnosis. > >> >I wonder how he’ll react to a girlfriend, or neighbour in a few years if > >> >he sees his outbursts as not being anyone else’s fault. > Does he not also need to recognize that we are all human and will make > mistakes? Try as we might, we goof up. Learning to acknowledge those > errors and to recognize legitimate efforts at correcting them and > avoiding them in future can also serve as experiences that will teach > will they not?
Absolutely. I agree. But would you think of this differently had _I_ hit the dog, or another person and my partner simply chalked it up, the ptsd and human error. I know from my history that the emotional abuse is just as damaging as the physical and sexual. > >What I am suggesting that this will take it’s toll on your son. > As will each event of consequence in our lives. On the other hand, > are individuals lives made up of snapshots or of portfolios? I mean > that to suggest that the overall meaning (the "Big Picture") of a > childhood filled with events good and bad will have far greater effect > on Jeremy than will my occassional failure to model appropriate > behaviour. If he sees more events of successfully dealing with > problems than failing and of concrete measures to correct the > failures, does this not have more long term meaning than the times we > fail?
Agreed. So I am hoping rather than dismissing anger and rage outburst as simply being human, your son is taught that they aren’t acceptable. That adults talk about their feelings and why they happen. As well, I hope that while these incidents happen that your wife, or whoever happens to be the more rational point is pointing out to your son that he has a right to feel angry over this. And give him some guidelines to express it. > >And to help him to grow up without justifying the outbursts. > Your choice of words here bothers me Ron. There was no > "justification", there was a full and heartfelt expression that my > behaviour was wrong. There was a discussion regarding my > difficulties with various events and how I am doing everything in my > power to overcome those difficulties. There was a strong message that > he is worthy of no less than exemplary behaviour from those charged > with his care and that I was sorry for not meeting those standards. > There was discussion of what steps might and will be taken.
And I received a heartfelt apology many times that I was hit. Or times that I was called disgusting. It still happened though. I know the impact that those outburst had on me. > I cannot speak to your implication that Jeremy will be negatively > affected by the events mentioned in one post. Your assumptions about > whether or not this particular event will affect him (and how) will > need to wait for time to bear out.
I appreciate that this may seem like a personal attack, and make you uncomfortable. I think so that the pattern isn’t repeated in your son, that maybe a book like "Toxic Parents" or other books on emotional abuse might let you see in others, so that you don’t have wait to see how your son may be affected. > On the other hand, your interpretation of my actions as being > "excuses", "justifications", "dismissive" or "Psycho Babble" (the > quotation marks imply only my focus on the ideas you presented) are > completely incorrect and they offend me.
I’m sorry. I never meant to suggest that. I wanted to be honest with you. I think there is some benefit for you and son. > As to how my own family history unfolded or the effects it had, you > have not been here long enough to have seen my posts on those issues > or the struggles and victories that have followed. I assure you that > several independent medial professionals and witnesses have > corroborated that the trauma was significant. I can also proudly > state that I have largely managed to rise above it.
This is the difference between personalizing and talking about a behaviour. Earlier on Nancy made the correct observation that me swearing and calling Lea names was abusive. She didn’t need to know me well, or for long to arrive at that conclusion. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >I appreciate your situation, I’m there myself. I hope that when you feel > >these feelings build that you can warn your wife, let her take your son out > >of the house so he doesn’t have to witness this. > Given your description, I have to wonder if you fully read my > description of the events or understand the nature of it. I told of > how I deal regularly with reducing the stress on a daily basis. This > was not such a circumstance. > The suddeness of the noise and it’s closeness offered no opportunity > to gradually deal with it. It was a sudden threat that compromised my > life security (wrong interpretation in hindsight, but absolutely true > at that moment), I had no time to reason out a better response. I did > what I inately knew was necessary to survive. You of course have > heard of the "fight or flight" model. It offers no opportunity for > reason or logic, it is a physiological response. I ran and made a lot > of noise to ward off what I viewed as the aggressor.
My father’s, and other abusers reactions were the same. Instantaneous and not clearly thought out. It scares when anyone starts suggesting that we can’t hold back from reacting for even a split second or two. > > I also wrote a few pointers in "anger outburst" that can help get rid > > of that anger and rage on a daily basis. > There is accepted medical evidence (Robert Sapolsky, Joseph LeDoux, > Bessel van der Kolk and others) of the physical changes to the brain > of the PTSD sufferer (see David Baldwin’s excellent site at > http://www.trauma-pages.com/index.phtml for examples). These data > would contradict your suggestions in cases of extreme and unexpected > stress situations. Day to day stress that builds and accumlates is > another matter but in the event I described, they would not have > helped.
Yes. That’s true. Doesn’t that suggest though that with PTSD we aren’t responsible for our actions. I don’t think you would cite this research if my instantaneous response to a trigger was to kick a dog, or slap a doctor sitting in front of me. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> To quote from one article (UPPER CASE by me for emphasis) located at > http://www.trauma-pages.com/vanderk4.htm: "Abraham Kardiner(6), who > first systematically defined posttraumatic stress for American > audiences, noted that sufferers from "traumatic neuroses" develop an > enduring vigilance for and SENSITIVITY TO ENVIRONMENTAL THREAT, and > stated that "the nucleus of the neurosis is a PHYSIONEUROSIS. This is > present on the battlefield and during the entire process of > organization; it OUTLIVES EVERY INTERMEDIARY ACCOMODATIVE DEVICE, and > persists in the chronic forms. The traumatic syndrome is EVER PRESENT > and UNCHANGED". > Later in the same article, he states: "In "Men under Stress", Grinker > and Spiegel (7) catalogue the PHYSICAL symptoms of soldiers in acute > posttraumatic states: flexor changes in posture, hyperkinesis, > "violently propulsive gait", tremor at rest, masklike facies, cogwheel > rigidity, gastric distress, urinary incontinence, mutism, and a > VIOLENT STARTLE REFLEX. They noted the similarity between many of > these symptoms and those of diseases of the extrapyramidal motor > system. Today we can understand them as the result of stimulation of > BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS, particularly of ascending amine projections. > Contemporary research on the biology of PTSD, generally uninformed by > this earlier research, CONFIRMS that there are PERSISTENT and PROFOUND > ALTERATIONS IN STRESS HORMONES secretion and MEMORY PROCESSING in > people with PTSD." > In short, there is evidence that situations that cause "environmental > threat" don’t get resolved through stress management techniques. They > happen at a physical level prior to the thought process having access. > The individual can learn to adapt his/her environment to reduce the > likelihood of such events happening but when they do, it’s not within > their control. These are the events of which I spoke. > Hope that clears up any confusion. I’m glad you responded Ron but ask > that you carefully read what people write and consider giving more > effort at accepting what is said without making assumpions.
Point taken. I won’t respond on this point anymore with you. I just wanted you to see from someone who isn’t in that specific situation that the "behaviour" of throwing, and punching, and kicking is abusive emotionally to those who witness it. I wonder though what your reaction would be if your son suddenly became very angry and destroyed things in his room. I am sorry for in any way hurting your feelings with what I’ve said.
Response:
Hi Gary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jeremy’s Dad <js…@home.com> wrote in message news:3a4c0bc3.9096517@News… > Boy! I read that article again and found more stuff on the startle > reflex that I had not noticed when I first read it some time back > (What?! A person with PTSD not remembering what they read?! GO > FIGURE!!) I thought perhaps a few snippets might be of interest to > people here. The article can be read in it’s entirety at > http://www.trauma-pages.com/vanderk4.htm. I will not post it all here > as I respect the copyright. > (Ron, this is not an addition to my previous post, I just wanted to > pass on some stuff I learned from.) > In the first section (titled THE SYMPTOMATOLOGY OF PTSD), the writer > has this to say: "In an apparent attempt to compensate for chronic > hyperarousal, traumatized people seem to shut down: on a behavioral > level, by avoiding stimuli reminiscent of the trauma; on a > psychobiological level, by emotional numbing, which extends to both > trauma-related, and everyday experience (15). Thus, people with > chronic PTSD tend to suffer from numbing of responsiveness to the > environment, punctuated by intermittent hyperarousal in response to > conditional traumatic stimuli."
‘numbing of responsivenes" a form of passive resistance perhaps? Numbing of responsiveness, perhaps even a form of emotional ‘flight’ to me, this ’shutting down’ sounds like an energy saving mechanism or perhaps technique, or perhaps, if we look at this alternatively, energy building, perhaps in preparation for possible ‘fight’. possibly the bursts of ‘intermittent hyperarousal’ might be a mechanism to release the energy that might be building in the ‘numbing of responsiveness’ phase, just guesses, or perhaps just delving into my own experience. Also ‘conditional traumatic stimuli’ is an important point here, I would say conditional on the memory, or the impact and significance of the stimuli that first caused the trauma. For myself a significant ‘conditional traumatic stimuli’ is the feeling of being ‘trapped’. This includes caustrophobia, in closed conditions. {Took my husband 6 years to convince me that we should marry ;-) } > My somewhat maudlin sense of humour pictures someone "going off" and > when asked if he/she is okay, they respond "I’m just fine thanks, how > are you doing?" <giggle>
yep done that the bit where ya go "I’m just fine thanks, how > are you doing?" <giggle>"
is the bit where you realise the inappropriateness of the outburst and one attempts to redeem the self somewhat, making light of an otherwise horrendous situation. > "The loss of affective modulation that is so central in PTSD mayhelp > explain the observation that traumatized people lose the capacity to > utilize affect states as signals (18).
I’m a bit lost with this, is "affects state" the same as ‘triggers’? > Instead of using feelings as > cues to attend to incoming information, in people with PTSD arousal is > likely to precipitate flight or fight reactions (19). Thus, they are > prone to go immediately from stimulus to response without making the > necessary psychological assessment of the meaning of what is going on. > This makes them prone to freeze, or, alternatively, to overreact and > intimidate others in response to minor provocations (12,20). " > Boy, ain’t it the truth?! When I get triggered, it can sometimes be a > long time coming while other times, a seemingly inane situation can > get me going in a flash. Either way, at the end, I’m not a > "reasoning" kinda guy. I *KNOW* the threat is real, I *KNOW* I’m > gonna die and I just want to deal with that. Ever hear that old joke > "My mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with facts".
well I never thought "I’m gonna die" that doesn’t come into it for me. It’s more like, "push me and I’ll push you harder" sometimes, but most of the time, its’ "push me and I’ll bend to set you off balance" > In a section entitled PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGY, are these comments: "Abnormal > psychophysiological responses in PTSD have been demonstrated on two > different levels: 1) in response to specific reminders of the trauma > and 2) in response to intense, but neutral stimuli, such as acoustic > startle" > Noise has *ALWAYS* been a problem for me. Anything unrecognized or > unexpected is understood as a threat. The louder or closer to me it > is, the more likely I am to respond in a defensive fashion.
Noise is not a problem for me, danger of physical or emotional abusive threat to myself or my family is what does it for me. Although if i have had extended contact with anxiety causing stimulus, then I can become jumpy with sudden noise. > "Kolb (29) was the first to propose that excessive stimulation of the > CNS at the time of the trauma may result in permanent neuronal changes > that have a negative effect on learning, habituation, and stimulus > discrimination. These neuronal changes would not depend on actual > exposure to reminders of the trauma for expression. The abnormal > startle response characteristic of PTSD (10) exemplifies such neuronal > changes. "
Does anyone know if this has anything to do with adrenalin? I have been in various emergency situations and felt the rush of adrenalin, where an emergency response kicks in and we react without thought, with heightened response time. It is the same rush that comes with extreme anxiety attack coupled with shakes, increased heart rate, sweat. > So, the "connection" to specific events that have happened during a > trauma do not need to be present at the time in order to have a cause > and effect relationship. I understand that to be a generalized > learning experience. Any one else see it that way?
I know what you are saying here. We can react in a similar way when the specific events of the trauma are not present. ie when faced with a ‘perceived’ unpleasant experience or duty that in no way relates to any memory of trauma, performing the exercise can be accompanied with the shakes, sweat, anxiety, even in the lead up to the exercise, the mental rehearsal for it can summon the ‘monsters’. Similar perhaps to what they term stage fright. The way I look at it, it is not all negative, sometimes the ‘monsters’ can be our friends. Rehearsal for those ‘perceived’ negative experiences and perhaps the act of ’summoning’ the mental monsters puts us into a state of heightened awareness, well that’s my experience. you likely see it differently. > Hmm, this article has a lot of gems in it. Anybody interested in a > "group study" of it to see what it means to us?
This is all new to me, I’m not really sure what group study entails, my knowledge of PTSD is limited, I don’t much like ‘labels’. I can only tell you what I have experienced. and I have also recently read that PTSD is similar to battle fatigue, I had great uncles who had that, came back from the war broken men, perhaps the propensity toward it runs in families. > Maybe a synthesis of > our responses to the article may be of interest to David?
I hope you wont think me rude in asking who’s David? >WHOAH! On > the other hand, it would probably bother people to have their comments > passed on. Forget I said it, I was just thinking out loud.
I’m using a pseudonym, does that matter? I don’t care where my comments go under *this* name. > In any case, I’m going to print it out and read it again to see what > there’s to see. I’d love to hear from others here on in private > e-mail about their take on the article.
I’ll read it some more too thanks – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Gary
Response:
Hi Ron and Jeremy’s Dad I hope you don’t mind me interrupting here. I am finding this thread interesting and thanks for the references you inject into the dialogue. I’ve begun posting in this news group today and recognise much of what you are both talking about. I have something to add and hope this isn’t intruding:- Ron Nicholson <ba…@home.com> wrote in message
news:3A4BB6A3.FCDFE231@home.com… snip >. In my case, this is exactly how my abusive father responded, and > surprise it was how I responded. Like you though, I never physically hit > anyone. So now I’m stuck trying to undo what was done to me.
I know about fight -and- flight. I do both, it depends on the circumstances, it depends if there is a safe place to ‘get away’ to, or not. Mostly I try to take flight, because I know what I am capable of, or it would be more accurate to say that, I don’t know what I am capable of. I’m female and only of small build, however there have been occassions when I have been trapped in circumstances where there is perceived threat and I have become wound up, over time, sometimes weeks or months. At those times I have errupted into uncrontollable / uncontrolled rage, I attack with everything I have got. At those times when serious events occurred, the result was startling, even for me. My husband is significantly bigger than myself, I have attacked him twice in 10 years, both times he was nagging me about minor things, it seemed to me reminiscent of how I was nagged as a child, he was following me around and not letting up, I couldn’t get away from the tirade, so without warning I turned on him. We were both stunned, he didn’t know what to do, he is no stranger to physical fighting, I guess if I was a man he would have handled the situation differently, so he let me go at it until I had used up all my energy, he turned the other cheek, as they say. > I’m suggesting that twice the effort needs to be made in showing him healthy > ways to deal with anger.
Not always easy to do, I sympathise with Jeremy’s Dad, knowing how difficult it is when the ’survival mechanism’ (well that’s what I call it) kicks in, however I also hear what you say and appreciate your words. Once we have dealt with the outbursts what is said and done can’t be taken back. >Not to dismiss your outburst with "dad had bad > things happen to him," "or dad’s sick and this is the only thing that helps > him." this isn’t psycho babble.
True enough, I doubt my daughter will ever understand why I have reacted in various ways over the years, no matter how much I explain what I have witnessed and lived through. They can’t feel the pain unless they have been there. However, if a serious event has occurred, the triggers were set and we have reacted in ways that impacted negatively for the children and it becomes too late to take it all back, it is important to allow the children to know that the event is not solely their fault and they are not to blame for the parent’s actions. Not explaining the events in ways which necessarily ‘justify’ the action, simply a making the child/ren aware that there are outside factors which contributed to the incidents that are in no way the fault of the child/ren. >Your son will repeat what he learns, not just > the good verbal messages that he you and your wife DO give, but he will also > model the bad, uncontrolled behaviours. If he doesn’t already.
Again I agree, parents can give out good verbal messages but if children are also witness to extreme and unpredictable behaviours, then the message become, "do as I say, not as I do", a form of contradiction. > I appreciate your situation, I’m there myself. I hope that when you feel > these feelings build that you can warn your wife, let her take your son out > of the house so he doesn’t have to witness this. I also wrote a few pointers > in "anger outburst" that can help get rid of that anger and rage on a daily > basis.
An escape route, or contingency plan is always a good measure. I don’t have anger or rage on a daily basis, in fact it is quite rare. However when it strikes, sometimes without warning, it is imperative there is good access to an escape route and I think it also important for those close to us to know . > I do hope that you don’t take this personally, and see that it intended to > help you and mostly your son.
I am finding the ideas and references that both of you present here to be helpful thanks!
Response:
Boy! I read that article again and found more stuff on the startle reflex that I had not noticed when I first read it some time back (What?! A person with PTSD not remembering what they read?! GO FIGURE!!) I thought perhaps a few snippets might be of interest to people here. The article can be read in it’s entirety at http://www.trauma-pages.com/vanderk4.htm. I will not post it all here as I respect the copyright. (Ron, this is not an addition to my previous post, I just wanted to pass on some stuff I learned from.) In the first section (titled THE SYMPTOMATOLOGY OF PTSD), the writer has this to say: "In an apparent attempt to compensate for chronic hyperarousal, traumatized people seem to shut down: on a behavioral level, by avoiding stimuli reminiscent of the trauma; on a psychobiological level, by emotional numbing, which extends to both trauma-related, and everyday experience (15). Thus, people with chronic PTSD tend to suffer from numbing of responsiveness to the environment, punctuated by intermittent hyperarousal in response to conditional traumatic stimuli." My somewhat maudlin sense of humour pictures someone "going off" and when asked if he/she is okay, they respond "I’m just fine thanks, how are you doing?" <giggle> "The loss of affective modulation that is so central in PTSD mayhelp explain the observation that traumatized people lose the capacity to utilize affect states as signals (18). Instead of using feelings as cues to attend to incoming information, in people with PTSD arousal is likely to precipitate flight or fight reactions (19). Thus, they are prone to go immediately from stimulus to response without making the necessary psychological assessment of the meaning of what is going on. This makes them prone to freeze, or, alternatively, to overreact and intimidate others in response to minor provocations (12,20). " Boy, ain’t it the truth?! When I get triggered, it can sometimes be a long time coming while other times, a seemingly inane situation can get me going in a flash. Either way, at the end, I’m not a "reasoning" kinda guy. I *KNOW* the threat is real, I *KNOW* I’m gonna die and I just want to deal with that. Ever hear that old joke "My mind’s made up, don’t confuse me with facts". In a section entitled PSYCHOPHYSIOLOGY, are these comments: "Abnormal psychophysiological responses in PTSD have been demonstrated on two different levels: 1) in response to specific reminders of the trauma and 2) in response to intense, but neutral stimuli, such as acoustic startle" Noise has *ALWAYS* been a problem for me. Anything unrecognized or unexpected is understood as a threat. The louder or closer to me it is, the more likely I am to respond in a defensive fashion. "Kolb (29) was the first to propose that excessive stimulation of the CNS at the time of the trauma may result in permanent neuronal changes that have a negative effect on learning, habituation, and stimulus discrimination. These neuronal changes would not depend on actual exposure to reminders of the trauma for expression. The abnormal startle response characteristic of PTSD (10) exemplifies such neuronal changes. " So, the "connection" to specific events that have happened during a trauma do not need to be present at the time in order to have a cause and effect relationship. I understand that to be a generalized learning experience. Any one else see it that way? Hmm, this article has a lot of gems in it. Anybody interested in a "group study" of it to see what it means to us? Maybe a synthesis of our responses to the article may be of interest to David? WHOAH! On the other hand, it would probably bother people to have their comments passed on. Forget I said it, I was just thinking out loud. In any case, I’m going to print it out and read it again to see what there’s to see. I’d love to hear from others here on in private e-mail about their take on the article. Gary
Response:
Ron, First, let me note that in order to save space (bandwidth for our European friends who pay dearly for it), I have edited parts of your response. This was done solely to show those parts of the message that I wanted to address and should not imply any attempt to misquote or manipulate your comments. Now that I’ve passed my disclaimers <grin>, I’ll go on and make them pay for my ramblings instead <HUGE grin>. >This isn’t about you personally. I was talking about the behavior, and trying >to point out that this will affect your son.
Of course it’s about me Ron. You addressed it to me and spoke specifically of my behaviour. This is what you wrote… >> >I just want to add here that while this a great way to help your son not >> >to feel responsible, it may also have the effect of teaching him how to >> >deal with his own anger. I don’t think it benefits children to excuse the >> >adults lack of control by attributing it to PTSD or any other diagnosis. >> >I wonder how he’ll react to a girlfriend, or neighbour in a few years if >> >he sees his outbursts as not being anyone else’s fault.
Does he not also need to recognize that we are all human and will make mistakes? Try as we might, we goof up. Learning to acknowledge those errors and to recognize legitimate efforts at correcting them and avoiding them in future can also serve as experiences that will teach will they not? >What I am suggesting that this will take it’s toll on your son.
As will each event of consequence in our lives. On the other hand, are individuals lives made up of snapshots or of portfolios? I mean that to suggest that the overall meaning (the "Big Picture") of a childhood filled with events good and bad will have far greater effect on Jeremy than will my occassional failure to model appropriate behaviour. If he sees more events of successfully dealing with problems than failing and of concrete measures to correct the failures, does this not have more long term meaning than the times we fail? >And to help him to grow up without justifying the outbursts.
Your choice of words here bothers me Ron. There was no "justification", there was a full and heartfelt expression that my behaviour was wrong. There was a discussion regarding my difficulties with various events and how I am doing everything in my power to overcome those difficulties. There was a strong message that he is worthy of no less than exemplary behaviour from those charged with his care and that I was sorry for not meeting those standards. There was discussion of what steps might and will be taken. I cannot speak to your implication that Jeremy will be negatively affected by the events mentioned in one post. Your assumptions about whether or not this particular event will affect him (and how) will need to wait for time to bear out. On the other hand, your interpretation of my actions as being "excuses", "justifications", "dismissive" or "Psycho Babble" (the quotation marks imply only my focus on the ideas you presented) are completely incorrect and they offend me. As to how my own family history unfolded or the effects it had, you have not been here long enough to have seen my posts on those issues or the struggles and victories that have followed. I assure you that several independent medial professionals and witnesses have corroborated that the trauma was significant. I can also proudly state that I have largely managed to rise above it. >I appreciate your situation, I’m there myself. I hope that when you feel >these feelings build that you can warn your wife, let her take your son out >of the house so he doesn’t have to witness this.
Given your description, I have to wonder if you fully read my description of the events or understand the nature of it. I told of how I deal regularly with reducing the stress on a daily basis. This was not such a circumstance. The suddeness of the noise and it’s closeness offered no opportunity to gradually deal with it. It was a sudden threat that compromised my life security (wrong interpretation in hindsight, but absolutely true at that moment), I had no time to reason out a better response. I did what I inately knew was necessary to survive. You of course have heard of the "fight or flight" model. It offers no opportunity for reason or logic, it is a physiological response. I ran and made a lot of noise to ward off what I viewed as the aggressor. > I also wrote a few pointers in "anger outburst" that can help get rid > of that anger and rage on a daily basis.
There is accepted medical evidence (Robert Sapolsky, Joseph LeDoux, Bessel van der Kolk and others) of the physical changes to the brain of the PTSD sufferer (see David Baldwin’s excellent site at http://www.trauma-pages.com/index.phtml for examples). These data would contradict your suggestions in cases of extreme and unexpected stress situations. Day to day stress that builds and accumlates is another matter but in the event I described, they would not have helped. To quote from one article (UPPER CASE by me for emphasis) located at http://www.trauma-pages.com/vanderk4.htm: "Abraham Kardiner(6), who first systematically defined posttraumatic stress for American audiences, noted that sufferers from "traumatic neuroses" develop an enduring vigilance for and SENSITIVITY TO ENVIRONMENTAL THREAT, and stated that "the nucleus of the neurosis is a PHYSIONEUROSIS. This is present on the battlefield and during the entire process of organization; it OUTLIVES EVERY INTERMEDIARY ACCOMODATIVE DEVICE, and persists in the chronic forms. The traumatic syndrome is EVER PRESENT and UNCHANGED". Later in the same article, he states: "In "Men under Stress", Grinker and Spiegel (7) catalogue the PHYSICAL symptoms of soldiers in acute posttraumatic states: flexor changes in posture, hyperkinesis, "violently propulsive gait", tremor at rest, masklike facies, cogwheel rigidity, gastric distress, urinary incontinence, mutism, and a VIOLENT STARTLE REFLEX. They noted the similarity between many of these symptoms and those of diseases of the extrapyramidal motor system. Today we can understand them as the result of stimulation of BIOLOGICAL SYSTEMS, particularly of ascending amine projections. Contemporary research on the biology of PTSD, generally uninformed by this earlier research, CONFIRMS that there are PERSISTENT and PROFOUND ALTERATIONS IN STRESS HORMONES secretion and MEMORY PROCESSING in people with PTSD." In short, there is evidence that situations that cause "environmental threat" don’t get resolved through stress management techniques. They happen at a physical level prior to the thought process having access. The individual can learn to adapt his/her environment to reduce the likelihood of such events happening but when they do, it’s not within their control. These are the events of which I spoke. Hope that clears up any confusion. I’m glad you responded Ron but ask that you carefully read what people write and consider giving more effort at accepting what is said without making assumpions. Gary
Response:
Ron, >I just want to add here that while this a great way to help your son not >to feel responsible, it may also have the effect of teaching him how to >deal with his own anger. I don’t think it benefits children to excuse the >adults lack of control by attributing it to PTSD or any other diagnosis. >I wonder how he’ll react to a girlfriend, or neighbour in a few years if >he sees his outbursts as not being anyone else’s fault.
I’m not sure I’m following your meaning Ron. Are you saying that what happened *WAS* his fault? Perhaps that I should have told him that if he had not dropped that book none of this would have happened? As to being responsible for his actions, my response was *GREATLY* over the top. Should he have been more careful? Maybe. Then again, he is usually. This was a one time event that happened purely by happenstance. Should he hang on to that one unusual event in defining his responsibility? I can’t see it. He sure enough is held responsible when he misbehaves deliberately. I provided a snapshot of one event in both our lives. I didn’t cover the other events that have been part of his development. I trust yu won’t be developing a theory based on that one description as I can assure you, that you would be off. How would you have suggested I handle it? Gary
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jeremy’s Dad wrote: > Ron, > >I just want to add here that while this a great way to help your son not > >to feel responsible, it may also have the effect of teaching him how to > >deal with his own anger. I don’t think it benefits children to excuse the > >adults lack of control by attributing it to PTSD or any other diagnosis. > >I wonder how he’ll react to a girlfriend, or neighbour in a few years if > >he sees his outbursts as not being anyone else’s fault. > I’m not sure I’m following your meaning Ron. Are you saying that what > happened *WAS* his fault? Perhaps that I should have told him that if > he had not dropped that book none of this would have happened? > As to being responsible for his actions, my response was *GREATLY* > over the top. Should he have been more careful? Maybe. Then again, > he is usually. This was a one time event that happened purely by > happenstance. Should he hang on to that one unusual event in defining > his responsibility? I can’t see it. He sure enough is held > responsible when he misbehaves deliberately. > I provided a snapshot of one event in both our lives. I didn’t cover > the other events that have been part of his development. I trust yu > won’t be developing a theory based on that one description as I can > assure you, that you would be off. > How would you have suggested I handle it?
This isn’t about you personally. I was talking about the behavior, and trying to point out that this will affect your son. I was devastated the first time my partner said to me that I was being abusive for throwing some dishes into the sink after days of rage building. It’s true. It’s abusive. What I’m suggesting is that these reactions that you have with your son in the house with you are unhealthy for him in the long run. My partner told me he was leaving me if I didn’t do something about the rages — even though they only happened every 9 months or so. I did, and we are still together. What I am suggesting that this will take it’s toll on your son. And to help him to grow up without justifying the outbursts. Look at your own family history. In my case, this is exactly how my abusive father responded, and surprise it was how I responded. Like you though, I never physically hit anyone. So now I’m stuck trying to undo what was done to me. I’m suggesting that twice the effort needs to be made in showing him healthy ways to deal with anger. Not to dismiss your outburst with "dad had bad things happen to him," "or dad’s sick and this is the only thing that helps him." this isn’t psycho babble. Your son will repeat what he learns, not just the good verbal messages that he you and your wife DO give, but he will also model the bad, uncontrolled behaviours. If he doesn’t already. I appreciate your situation, I’m there myself. I hope that when you feel these feelings build that you can warn your wife, let her take your son out of the house so he doesn’t have to witness this. I also wrote a few pointers in "anger outburst" that can help get rid of that anger and rage on a daily basis. I do hope that you don’t take this personally, and see that it intended to help you and mostly your son.
Response:
Hi there everyone! I am new to the Ng. I read everyone’s postings every now and then. I guess I am not sure if I should even be posting. I do not feel like I am having the same issues as some of you in the NG. That is why I am not sure if I should even bee posting. I can relate in some cases. I guess you can say I am still in denial. I do have a lot of the same issues that you all have.. I am not understanding why I have these burst of anger. They are so out of control. I was just wondering if anyone has any suggestions???? LOLA
Response:
Lola, >Hi there everyone!
Hi yourself! Welcome to our little corner of craziness. <Smile> >I am new to the Ng. I read everyone’s postings every now and >then. I guess I am not sure if I should even be posting. I >do not feel like I am having the same issues as some of you >in the NG. That is why I am not sure if I should even bee >posting.
Keep in mind that while those who deal with this beast called PTSD tend to have the same symptoms, the specifics are all different. Have you taken a look at the DSM criteria for PTSD? I’m sure that if you have been properly diagnosed, most of them will be present in some form or another for you. >I can relate in some cases. I guess you can say I am still >in denial.
Denial? That’s a river in Egypt isn’t it? <grin> Why wouldn’t you deny some of the madness that brought you here? It isn’t pretty for any of us. Somewhere, I saw a great definition of PTSD as being a normal reaction to abnormal circumstances. We just get "stuck" there and need to "Adjust" ourselves when we get back to a normal situation. >I do have a lot of the same issues that you all have.. I am >not understanding why I have these burst of anger. They are >so out of control.
Ah yes, my old friend Rage. I have been so close to him for so long but over the last few years have managed to keep him at bay somewhat. I have destroyed a perfectly good lawnmower, bashed walls, lightswitches, garage doors etc and generally screamed horrible things at inanimate objects and (I’m ashamed to say) people. I can’t see that there is any way anyone could have stopped me in a rage. As you describe, I was completely out of control. I really lose it. Being the size I am, that is scary (6 feet 5 inches, over 300 lbs). I have tried to learn to release the pressure before a blow. I’m getting progressively better at sensing the growth of the stress and try to talk (I’m not at all good at this expressing feeling stuff), listen to loud music on earphones while singing out loud (VERY loud!), walk, playfight with the dog etc (a big boxer so she gets good and rough). That seems to take the edge of things. Unexpected major events can still cause an explosion though. Not so long ago, my son accidentally dropped a big book on the linoleum floor a foot or so behind me. It managed to land completely flat and of course made a whopper of a bang. I let go a scream and was off on a tear. I knew enough to get away from my wife and son but on the way took a swing at the wall and destroyed a light switch. It took quite a while to get the energy expended so a lot of screaming and swearing and pacing in the basement followed. My wife managed to get my son to his room and the two of them talked about how Dad was losing it again and she tried to explain that he had done nothing wrong, it was an accident. She reminded him that Dad is pretty tightly strung when it comes to sudden noises and assured him that I would never hurt him but instead dealt with the anger by getting away and trying to vent it. When things had settled down, I had a long talk with him and tried to explain how things go wrong and reminded him that my reaction was all mine and that it was not his fault. He was just there at the time of an accident. As far as I can tell, he understood. Reviewing the events with my therapist, he assured me that I had dealt with the situation as best as I could and that Jeremy would be fine. I often fear that his assessment is wrong but Jeremy cinstantly surprises me with how he speaks directly about these types of events and "checks in" to make sure I’m okay if sudden noises happen. Hope these comments will offer some ideas. Take Care Gary
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Lina Reynolds wrote: > Hi there everyone! > I am new to the Ng. I read everyone’s postings every > now and then. I guess I am not sure if I should even > be posting. I do not feel like I am having the same > issues as some of you in the NG. That is why I am not > sure if I should even bee posting. > I can relate in some cases. I guess you can say I am > still in denial. > I do have a lot of the same issues that you all > have.. I am not understanding why I have these burst > of anger. They are so out of control. > I was just wondering if anyone has any > suggestions???? > LOLA
Hi, Lina. The best suggestion that I can offer for anger is to limit yourself. Even if you voice gets louder, limit yourself to saying that your angry and why. Trying to discussing or work it through with the other person is really difficult. People react to anger anyway. So, if the person who are angry with is going to react it just turns into an argument. That means that I walk away. And I re-think what I wanted to say, and try to say it an a way that I would want to hear it if the other person was angry with me. You can also keep those outbursts and reactions to a minimum by further limiting what you say to the situation, and your thoughts and feelings. Telling people their faults, and making it about them isn’t constructive. Talk about yourself, and how it affects you. You can see a difference. I didn’t follow that advice a few months ago. If you look back you can see how my responses were different. After that, the rest of it is the issue of the person and should be kept to themselves, or be told to someone else who isn’t the person you are angry with. Unless you’ve surrounded yourself with perfect people, it’s almost impossible to work through why you are angry with the person you are angry with. As for the rest, I hope you’ll post more often. Regardless if it’s good news, or bad. Also, I wouldn’t say that you are in denial. I just happen to know from my own experiences that people with the same diagnosis, and history work through their issues in different ways, and from different directions. What happens in daily life seems to be the key. People in couples have different problems that come up than single people, just as one example. Children and no children, brings the same issues up but in different ways.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jeremy’s Dad wrote: > Lola, > >Hi there everyone! > Hi yourself! Welcome to our little corner of craziness. <Smile> > >I am new to the Ng. I read everyone’s postings every now and > >then. I guess I am not sure if I should even be posting. I > >do not feel like I am having the same issues as some of you > >in the NG. That is why I am not sure if I should even bee > >posting. > Keep in mind that while those who deal with this beast called PTSD > tend to have the same symptoms, the specifics are all different. Have > you taken a look at the DSM criteria for PTSD? I’m sure that if you > have been properly diagnosed, most of them will be present in some > form or another for you. > >I can relate in some cases. I guess you can say I am still > >in denial. > Denial? That’s a river in Egypt isn’t it? <grin> Why wouldn’t you > deny some of the madness that brought you here? It isn’t pretty for > any of us. Somewhere, I saw a great definition of PTSD as being a > normal reaction to abnormal circumstances. We just get "stuck" there > and need to "Adjust" ourselves when we get back to a normal situation. > >I do have a lot of the same issues that you all have.. I am > >not understanding why I have these burst of anger. They are > >so out of control. > Ah yes, my old friend Rage. I have been so close to him for so long > but over the last few years have managed to keep him at bay somewhat. > I have destroyed a perfectly good lawnmower, bashed walls, > lightswitches, garage doors etc and generally screamed horrible things > at inanimate objects and (I’m ashamed to say) people. I can’t see > that there is any way anyone could have stopped me in a rage. As you > describe, I was completely out of control. I really lose it. Being > the size I am, that is scary (6 feet 5 inches, over 300 lbs). > I have tried to learn to release the pressure before a blow. I’m > getting progressively better at sensing the growth of the stress and > try to talk (I’m not at all good at this expressing feeling stuff), > listen to loud music on earphones while singing out loud (VERY loud!), > walk, playfight with the dog etc (a big boxer so she gets good and > rough). That seems to take the edge of things. Unexpected major > events can still cause an explosion though. Not so long ago, my son > accidentally dropped a big book on the linoleum floor a foot or so > behind me. It managed to land completely flat and of course made a > whopper of a bang. I let go a scream and was off on a tear. I knew > enough to get away from my wife and son but on the way took a swing at > the wall and destroyed a light switch. > It took quite a while to get the energy expended so a lot of screaming > and swearing and pacing in the basement followed. My wife managed to > get my son to his room and the two of them talked about how Dad was > losing it again and she tried to explain that he had done nothing > wrong, it was an accident. She reminded him that Dad is pretty > tightly strung when it comes to sudden noises and assured him that I > would never hurt him but instead dealt with the anger by getting away > and trying to vent it. > When things had settled down, I had a long talk with him and tried to > explain how things go wrong and reminded him that my reaction was all > mine and that it was not his fault. He was just there at the time of > an accident. As far as I can tell, he understood. Reviewing the > events with my therapist, he assured me that I had dealt with the > situation as best as I could and that Jeremy would be fine. I often > fear that his assessment is wrong but Jeremy cinstantly surprises me > with how he speaks directly about these types of events and "checks > in" to make sure I’m okay if sudden noises happen. > Hope these comments will offer some ideas. > Take Care > Gary
I just want to add here that while this a great way to help your son not to feel responsible, it may also have the effect of teaching him how to deal with his own anger. I don’t think it benefits children to excuse the adults lack of control by attributing it to PTSD or any other diagnosis. I wonder how he’ll react to a girlfriend, or neighbour in a few years if he sees his outbursts as not being anyone else’s fault. I learned how to deal with my anger through my parents. One sat silently never saying a word, while the other hit, slapped, through things, swore, etc.
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