Trauma – PTSD

Question:

>  "Horowitz hypothesizes that this processing is carried out through a >computerlike, match-mismatch mechanism for assimilating and accommodating new >information.

Sounds like the guy studied Piaget

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you sound just like me, and I have ocd

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Flydream4 wrote >My friend told me that without my luvox: >a) I talk twice as fast >b) When I start talking about something I don’t finish the thought, and I go >off into a tangent based on some obscure association. Without the luvox my >thoughts are shorter, less connected, less well developed, and less organized. >I have trouble finishing one idea because another one arrives too soon. My >thoughts are like listening to 10 different stations at the same time on a weak >battery powered radio. I guess I just don’t make sense. >c) I go on and on and on, I can’t stop talking and go round in circles.

Hi Flydream4, That strongly reminds me of a woman in group therapy who was suffering from hysteria. Her speech was normal until someone asked her to describe her problems. Her following 10 minute description was totally (literally) incomprehensible, like a non-stop gush of random words. Everybody’s lower jaw crashed onto the floor in disbelief. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->1) I read a book – I can’t recall the title – which noted that people with OCD >tend to relate in a more or less tangential manner. >2) What is the reason behind this tangential, circumstantial thinking and why >does it correlate so strongly with OCD? Is it because the thought processes in >OCD contain more anxiety provoking triggers, thereby making it more likely to >set off a stream of unrelated thoughts? For example, when I start a simple >thought such as "I’m afraid I won’t enjoy my vacation in Arizona….." anxiety >makes it more likely for me to find a trigger in that sentence, which causes me >to go off into a tangent and more, and so the original thought gets completely >buried: ….."Arizona is too hot, I won’t be able to wear my favorite shirt –> >My favorite shirt is in the wash right now. –> Oh no I have detergent on my >hands!!!! –> Uhoh I need to wash them again!!!! –>Again!!!!! Why do I always >have the need to do things again and again!? –>My sister always did things >again and again –>MY SISTER! WHY DIDN’T SHE CALL ME?" >3) This is why I go on and on. These tangents make it impossible for me to >organize my thoughts, and since the original thoughts are never completed, I >NEVER feel a sense of CLOSURE. And the search for this feeling is what propels >me to go on and on. I go off on so many tangents that after an hour I end up >having 200 things to worry about instead of 1. I keep ruminating, I can’t stop >talking, I can’t stop typing. My thoughts trip all over themselves. They’re >totally disorganized. I keep finding more junk in my head that I can’t remember >what I was supposed to be worried about.

That’s how I used to be. Anxiety seemed to be the root cause because as I lowered my anxiety level (over about 2-3 years) the problem gradually diminished. Basically, it seemed that the anxiety had destroyed my concentration and I was also thinking too quickly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->4) OCD is all or nothing thinking = black and white. Now or never. Nothing in >between is acceptable. >5) In the OCD mind, the only solution to a problem seems to be a magical, >ritualistic one, especially when I feel like I’ve done something wrong and >can’t stop obsessing about it. I don’t know how many times I’ve obsessed over >something I’ve just said or done. ‘If only I could turn back the hands of >time’….I can’t remember how often I’ve uttered that phrase to myself. I find >myself talking to a friend about a problem, for example, one time I said: "I >just quit my job. I’m so upset. What do I do now??" Well, my friend gave me >very good advice, she said "Find another one. Or try to get your old job back." >But the trouble was I vetoed almost every practical solution she gave me "No I >can’t do that because…….."

That was pointed out to me by a group therapist, who said that I rejected every suggestion with a sentence beginning: "Yes, but…".  I was just experiencing too high an anxiety level to sensibly consider taking any practical steps to solve my problems. The "Yes, but…" was a means of validating and excusing my inactivity to myself (and to others). >7) I’ve noticed that while off my meds I have trouble switching from one >activity to another. I get stuck in one gear. Once I’m on the internet, for >example, I can’t get off. At times it’s almost comical. At 3 in the morning >here I am, I have to get up for work at 7. But I just have to keep checking >this NG for new posts. I ricochet back and forth from my email to the NG on >AOL, back to this NG, then back again to my email. I don’t know if the activity >is compulsive or rewarding. Once I’ve done the email and AOL circuit, I figure >enough time will have elapsed that I may find a new post here. lol it’s

4:05. Are you on/off meds these days? (Presumably off, from what you say above.) Kind regards, Steve

Response:

Steven George wrote: >Are you on/off meds these days? >(Presumably off, from what you say above.)

Off and hopefully, for good!!!

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I’m like this also. Thanks for putting it in words.WOW!Do you wonder if there is any group of people that are as like minded as us ocders?

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omg!!!!! Yes that is me also…I am so just like that also, very nice job putting that into words. Its all so true. Bonnie

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I just came across something in a book that might further explain this feeling of incompleteness that we obsessonal thinkers seem to be forever encapsulated by in spite of our own insights. Why I would come across this passage now, as opposed to a week from now (when I will have forgotten everything) can only be attributed to a god of ocd if there is one.   Tormenting Thoughts and Secret Rituals by Ian Osborn, brings forth several hypotheses which may explain further the mechanisms behind obsessional thinking, or why it might be so hard to just go out, abandon our OCD, and get laid (I’ve had mine for so long that it might be unfaithful) PP 166-167: "Why do our minds bring back painful thoughts against our will? Studies of post-traumatic responses offer a hint. Pilots returning from combat missions, it has been shown, often replay a battle over and over in their mind’s eye before they can let it go. People who have witnessed a terrorist attack frequently suffer intrusive thoughts and nightmares until they adjust. Rape victims develop flashbacks until psychological healing occurs. It is clear that instant replays of traumatic events are somehow necessary for our adapting to them."    "The landmark studies on post-traumatic thoughts were done by psychiatrist Mardi Horowitz at the University of California in 1977. Students were shown grisly movies of industrial accidents, such as machine operators getting their fingers sawed off. Afterward, the students had intrusive unpleasant images of the accidents, images that recurred over and over, until gradually they began to lose their unpleasantness and fade away. Horowitz concluded from his experiments that some sort of "mental processing" is necessary for us to come to terms with traumatic memories."   "Horowitz hypothesizes that this processing is carried out through a computerlike, match-mismatch mechanism for assimilating and accommodating new information. When the memory of a traumatic event comes to mind, it is compared with preexisting wishes and fears and appraised in relation to coping capacity. If there is a match, if the memory harmonizes with preexisting associations about the self and the world, then the memory is quickly stored. But if there is a mismatch, if the post-traumatic memory does not fit with existing information, then a process is initiated by which additional associations are formed, integrating the new information with the old.   "…Most experts now agree that obsessions, like post-traumatic thoughts, repeat themselves again and again in order to be further processed. If you try to bypass this mechanism, to skip out the replay of a painful thought, the result is that the thought is brought back again, and even stronger, so that next time you’ll let the processing be done. Harvard’s Pitman concludes in a 1987 review article,  ’ The core problem in OCD is the persistence of a mismatch.’  It is a person’s inability to complete the processing of intrusive, unacceptable thoughts that lies at the heart of OCD." Simon Smith wrote:

 >Freud said something interesting about his patients with obsessional – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->neurosis – he said that when he started he would go through the process >of therapy with them and think it had been very successful because the >person had shown so much self-understanding and expressed it so >articulately. But then he realised that actually no real progress or >change had been achieved at all, and the process of therapy would have >to begin all over again. >Actually I don’t believe that Freud was successful with any of his >obsessional patients but I do believe what he says reflects a truth >about them – as you do, they can brilliantly and articulately express >the obsessional state of mind and still be as much imprisoned by it as >ever. >Anyway I can identify with almost everything you say. That evil feeling >of incompleteness, of something not resolved. Fucked up my life. >I am totally confused about this. Totally and utterly confused. ‘Oh, why >don’t you just go out and get laid’ people say to me (or someone did >once or twice). I am trying to find a dog, which is something, maybe. >I will say, Flydream, that you are being brilliant at what you are >brilliant at, but maybe it is time to just be crap or quite good at >something else. >– >simon   my head’s not empty, it’s full with my brain

Response:

In article <19990721040559.00129.00000…@ng-ff1.aol.com>, Flydream4 <flydre…@aol.com> writes >In the OCD mind

<snip before and after> Freud said something interesting about his patients with obsessional neurosis – he said that when he started he would go through the process of therapy with them and think it had been very successful because the person had shown so much self-understanding and expressed it so articulately. But then he realised that actually no real progress or change had been achieved at all, and the process of therapy would have to begin all over again. Actually I don’t believe that Freud was successful with any of his obsessional patients but I do believe what he says reflects a truth about them – as you do, they can brilliantly and articulately express the obsessional state of mind and still be as much imprisoned by it as ever. Anyway I can identify with almost everything you say. That evil feeling of incompleteness, of something not resolved. Fucked up my life. I am totally confused about this. Totally and utterly confused. ‘Oh, why don’t you just go out and get laid’ people say to me (or someone did once or twice). I am trying to find a dog, which is something, maybe. I will say, Flydream, that you are being brilliant at what you are brilliant at, but maybe it is time to just be crap or quite good at something else. — simon   my head’s not empty, it’s full with my brain

Response:

My friend told me that without my luvox: a) I talk twice as fast b) When I start talking about something I don’t finish the thought, and I go off into a tangent based on some obscure association. Without the luvox my thoughts are shorter, less connected, less well developed, and less organized. I have trouble finishing one idea because another one arrives too soon. My thoughts are like listening to 10 different stations at the same time on a weak battery powered radio. I guess I just don’t make sense. c) I go on and on and on, I can’t stop talking and go round in circles. 1) I read a book – I can’t recall the title – which noted that people with OCD tend to relate in a more or less tangential manner. 2) What is the reason behind this tangential, circumstantial thinking and why does it correlate so strongly with OCD? Is it because the thought processes in OCD contain more anxiety provoking triggers, thereby making it more likely to set off a stream of unrelated thoughts? For example, when I start a simple thought such as "I’m afraid I won’t enjoy my vacation in Arizona….." anxiety makes it more likely for me to find a trigger in that sentence, which causes me to go off into a tangent and more, and so the original thought gets completely buried: ….."Arizona is too hot, I won’t be able to wear my favorite shirt –> My favorite shirt is in the wash right now. –> Oh no I have detergent on my hands!!!! –> Uhoh I need to wash them again!!!! –>Again!!!!! Why do I always have the need to do things again and again!? –>My sister always did things again and again –>MY SISTER! WHY DIDN’T SHE CALL ME?" 3) This is why I go on and on. These tangents make it impossible for me to organize my thoughts, and since the original thoughts are never completed, I NEVER feel a sense of CLOSURE. And the search for this feeling is what propels me to go on and on. I go off on so many tangents that after an hour I end up having 200 things to worry about instead of 1. I keep ruminating, I can’t stop talking, I can’t stop typing. My thoughts trip all over themselves. They’re totally disorganized. I keep finding more junk in my head that I can’t remember what I was supposed to be worried about. 4) OCD is all or nothing thinking = black and white. Now or never. Nothing in between is acceptable. 5) In the OCD mind, the only solution to a problem seems to be a magical, ritualistic one, especially when I feel like I’ve done something wrong and can’t stop obsessing about it. I don’t know how many times I’ve obsessed over something I’ve just said or done. ‘If only I could turn back the hands of time’….I can’t remember how often I’ve uttered that phrase to myself. I find myself talking to a friend about a problem, for example, one time I said: "I just quit my job. I’m so upset. What do I do now??" Well, my friend gave me very good advice, she said "Find another one. Or try to get your old job back." But the trouble was I vetoed almost every practical solution she gave me "No I can’t do that because…….." Why is this?? Why can’t I take her advice, accept it as a solution, plan to act on it, and be done with the conversation?? Why can’t I just stop talking, swallow my losses and move onto something else?? It’s like I have to keep the subject alive, as if I’m somehow waiting for her to rescue me….like if she said "You’re now a millionaire. You never have to go back to work because I found a mansion in the sky." or "I just received a broadcast from God that you will now die and go to heaven." Why am I waiting for a solution that I KNOW doesn’t exist?? Why do I waste my time continuing to bore her when I won’t even accept her advice? I guess I keep at it because I don’t "feel right" in the head. I will pound things into the ground until I’m utterly exhausted, the "perfect solution" comes by, or a nuclear explosion occurs. It’s as if I’m waiting for something magical to happen. Or maybe I’m waiting for that feeling in my head to go away. 6) In OCD, an all or nothing solution (or the *magical* solution) is the only one that gives us the feeling of "closure" that we so desperately crave. Sometimes we will use magic if there is no natural solution that eases that queasy feeling in our stomach. (Forgive me if I’m using the word "we" here. To all natural writers: How the heck do I word this paragraph so that no one has to share their stomachs with anyone else????) In OCD we don’t know what we want. Nothing will satisfy us. The faulty error detection mechanism in our brain works overtime and so everything feels wrong. We pure obsessionals seem to have internal compulsions. Whether it’s obvious or not, we perform rituals in our heads. I’m not referring to the more apparent counting or warding-off-bad-thoughts kind. I mean the vaguer stream-of-consciousness worrying, obsessing, writing, talking, crying, blabbing kind. The going on-and-on-long after-our-friends-have-told-us-enuff-already kind. Our search for that feeling of "rightness" is so elusive that we will circle the globe fifteen times to achieve it. Or we run away from ourselves. We don’t even know what the heck we’re looking for. It never feels right. No wonder magic is all that helps us sometimes. No wonder I tap my alarm clock twice to make sure that it has been set. 7) I’ve noticed that while off my meds I have trouble switching from one activity to another. I get stuck in one gear. Once I’m on the internet, for example, I can’t get off. At times it’s almost comical. At 3 in the morning here I am, I have to get up for work at 7. But I just have to keep checking this NG for new posts. I ricochet back and forth from my email to the NG on AOL, back to this NG, then back again to my email. I don’t know if the activity is compulsive or rewarding. Once I’ve done the email and AOL circuit, I figure enough time will have elapsed that I may find a new post here. lol it’s 4:05.  

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