Question:
As a Character in the "Just William" books, (author Richmal Crompton) of my childhood (Violet Elizabeth) said "I’ll squeem and squeem and squeem until I’m sick, so there" We hear a lot of squeeming from the Radical Right.
I hadn’t noticed. I think it’s been drowned out by the whining from the Liberal Left. ??? bob
Response:
Actually the process Young describes is just plain old dictatorship. We see more of it under Republicans than under Democrats, but we see too damn much of it under either party.
Bullshit!!! It isn’t the Republicans that want to take away your guns, make the "rich" support the "poor", ad nauseum. bob
Response:
It isn’t the Republicans that want to take away your guns, make the "rich" support the "poor", ad nauseum.
But it *is* the Republicans who want to take away women’s right to choose, take away everyone’s right to raise their children in the religion or non-religion of their choice, etc … ad nauseum. Both parties are opposed to freedom (as Old Biker defined it). We can agree to disagree as to which is worse. Jenny
Response:
And you wouldn’t have any way to get it in anyway.. My last house in the UK (1956) had a 25ft wide lot, and because I wanted a garage to the rear the space between my lot and my neighbors was the access to the garage. You couldn’t have gotten a pop top down between it. The Uk is a very crowded place. Hence the concern over target practice in the yard, even with an air gun, Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Many British backyards aren’t as big as the average campsite. Frederick Right, but I don’t take my rig to UK. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.
Response:
I agree with most of what you have said, but regardless of which country you live in there are crazies in the police and there are overreactors in all countries. When an official has overreacted they invariably then start constructing a reason for there reaction that justifies their stupidity. That applies in the UK, Atlanta, or Fan belt, Wyoming. By the way the latter got it’s name because someone broke a fan belt there in the thirties and decided to settle<G Overreaction is the stuff of which politics is made. Look what happened to Clinton because Monica decided to be accommodating<G Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Bill, If you knew how small the yards were in the UK you would better appreciate that even a pellet gun could do some damage at such a short range. As for the obvious blooper of the police, it happens even here. Frederick Blooper? Which part was the blooper – the riot van, confiscating the airgun, questioning an 11-year old for two hours, or calling an airgun a firearm? Blooper? I don’t think so, but I would think it might be a bit embarrassing to have to enforce such irrational laws. And yes, I know we also have idiots here. Too many. The most ridiculous of them are the liberals who have instituted the Zero Tolerance Policy in schools all over the country, and then have brainlessly applied it – resulting in suspensions and expulsions for things like pointing a fried chicken finger, and saying "Pow", drawing pictures of guns, and possessing a key chain depicting a gun. Then there is the female honor student who was expelled, and not allowed to attend graduation ceremonies. A security guard spotted a 5" kitchen knife on the floorboard of her car. She says it must have fallen out of a box when she was moving. Do you suppose they have also removed all the screwdrivers from shop classes? Perhaps only those with blades longer than 4" have been banned. A number of our States also classify a BB gun as a ‘firearm’ or ‘dangerous weapon’. Aside from making criminals of kids, how much crime and death has that prevented? Idiocy. Rabid, emotional mush sloshing around in the cranial vault where brains should be. And Jumpy Jynndi, who lives in fear of his RV and himself getting holed by a Rambo shooting at figments. 200 million guns in this country. There should be an epidemic of perforated RVs. Has it happened? How many times? — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.
Response:
Many British backyards aren’t as big as the average campsite. Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – And that is why it will take all of us who believe in the right of the law abiding individual to own and know how to use a gun, to continue the fight. That story ought to send a chill up the backs of all the anti-gun nuts reading this. If this is what they want here in the U.S.A., then we are all screwed. Hugh Gee Hugh, I get a chill right up my back every time Ii think that the guy in the next camp site might decide to shoot some imagined intruder, and hit my rig. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.
Response:
Many British backyards aren’t as big as the average campsite. Frederick
Right, but I don’t take my rig to UK. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.
Response:
So I take it you want the freedom to own slaves,…. Only someone who has benefited from involvement in military activities without being involved in the work that military does…. Like most Rednecks …..
Are your arguements so bankrupt that you must resort to assumptions and name calling to support them? It is ironic that I, as an immigrant, should have to clarify to you, a native born, what freedom is.
What is ironic is that you, raised in a country of serfs who never knew freedom, would presume to tell any American what freedom is. Maybe that is because the government had a choice …..
You think like a slave. My ancestors chose the government not vice versa. Like most Rednecks you confuse freedom with what you percieve as your right to do anything you want. ….
Oh? The Random House College Dictionary says, "free: 1)enjoying *personal* rights or liberty … 5) exempt from external authority, …." and "freedom: 1)the satae of being at liberty rather than confinement … 2)exemption from external control, interference, regulation, etc., 3) power to determine ones own actions …" It doesn’t say a thing about any process wherein individuals’ liberty gets sacrificed for any greater good. Thus *you* are the one who’s confused the definition of "freedom". Germany was a National Socialist country and for your education Socialist in that sense has no relationship to socialist in the community sense. …
Bullshit. The only difference between Hitler’s dictatorship and what you call "freedom" is that one man headed the former whilst some misinformed majority heads the latter. From any individuals standpoint, there is no difference between control by one man or by many. The result is the same, control, interference and regulation: the antithesis of freedom. I strongly suspect that you were born in the wrong century I think the 19th would have suited you better. You might have had trouble with industry at that time because the industrial barons were also doing their thing then, and your thing might not have suited them too well. The South prior to the Civil War would have suited you, if you had happened to be born to the right Father, otherwise you might have been in a societal limbo. Neither rich, nor as poor as the slave, but perhaps close.
You are obviously misinformed regarding my country’s history. My paternal ancestors came here from Switzerland and settled on what was then the frontier in the early 18th century. Like most, they were craftsmen and farmers with essentially the same standards of living their contemporaries enjoyed. The difference was they faced greater dangers (Indians, Pommys, et al) but did not have to get some lord’s permission to take game, plant crops, or fart as yours still do. Those who were industrious thrived, those who were not indeed lived poorer than a plantation slave – but that was a choice serfs didn’t have. So to recap, your freedom leads to anarchy, mine leads to choice of the majority. We just haven’t found a good way to to deal with tyrrany of the majority
Now we’re getting somewhere. Freedom, as defined by my dictionary, tends toward anarchy. That which you call "freedom" is the "tyrrany of the majority". Moreover, we have found a way to deal with that tyranny, albiet imperfectly: a constitution that restricts government; something Britian lacks and you clearly fail to understand. It may not be enforced as carefully as I’d like but I can still say "The IRA is a fine patriotic lot" if I wish; all because the constitution my ancestors helped write, then whipped yours to preserve, says "Congress shall pass no law ..etc." Is the same true in pommyland? No? Then that’s why you grew up so confused about freedom. Frederick The shameless veteran Navy of WW2 and Korea.
U.S. Navy? Somehow I doubt that. The WW2 vets I knew would have bitch-slapped some sense into you the first time you started spouting socialism at them.
Response:
Jenny, You will perhaps note that I mention tyrrany of the majority in my response to Biker. Both parties have engaged in that, and the Supreme Court is supposed to be the guardian that prevents that. But as they have demonstrated, they sometimes will perpetuate tyrrany of the majority, as they did in the Dred Scott case and more recently in their annointing Bush. What will protect us if Bush is allowed to pack the Court I don’t know. Maybe take to the streets. That’s why we have a lot to thank Jeffers for. He saw it, was affected by it, and acted. Maybe men/women of concience is all we have left. Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. Thats Orwellian doublespeak straight out of 1984 (the book)! Freedom *is* the *ability* to do what you want – period, *not* a "process". You’re both right. I agree with Old Biker that freedom is the ability to do what you want — so long as you don’t do others tangible harm. Unfortunately, there’s not much freedom of that kind in the United States. As a practical matter, Young’s definition is what actually happens in the United States. Example: I want to be and do things that tangibly harm no one. I can’t because the majority of others don’t want me to. That majority in the United States doesn’t care a whit about freedom as Old Biker defines it. They use their power to allow whatever *they* like and to outlaw whatever *they* don’t like. And, of course, in true Orwellian fashion, they insist that the United States is a free country. The "process" Young mentions instead comprises the foundation of socialism … Actually the process Young describes is just plain old dictatorship. We see more of it under Republicans than under Democrats, but we see too damn much of it under either party. The freedom-hating dictatorship of the majority is as American as apple pie. Jenny
Response:
Bill, If you knew how small the yards were in the UK you would better appreciate that even a pellet gun could do some damage at such a short range. As for the obvious blooper of the police, it happens even here. These are pellets, not beebee’s They fit the barrel tight and have a much higher muzzle velocity that a beebee. I had one as a kid, and was a damned good shot! Hit an English penny every time at about 50 ft. Maybe that’s why I was a marksman in the RN on basic training. Biker allows his irrepressible sense of independence to carry him away to the point that he overlooks he is a member of a democratic society. I know it’s a Republic, hence the lower case d. Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. Sounds like a socialist, communist, or liberal democrat to me. Steve ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~ Fred spent too many of his formative years in Britain, "whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met" by doing things like this: Roland Hopper will never forget his 11th birthday party – after an armed police team arrested him as he cut his cake.
http://icnewcastle.ic24.com/0100news/0100local/page.cfm?objectid=11018 615&method=full – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.
Response:
Nope, none of those things. Just a guy who is sensible enough to recognize that he isn’t going to get all he would like, and is prepared to entertain compromise as a solution. Hardly your everyday Fundamental/Right Wing Radical. As a Character in the "Just William" books, (author Richmal Crompton) of my childhood (Violet Elizabeth) said "I’ll squeem and squeem and squeem until I’m sick, so there" We hear a lot of squeeming from the Radical Right. Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. Sounds like a socialist, communist, or liberal democrat to me. Steve ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~ Nah, just somebody that lives in the real world, and not on a tiny island. Your ego may be just such an island. Had any visitors lately? Wait. That was nasty. What I mean to say is, read it again. Doesn’t your life require a lot of give and take? That is what he is talking about. Is that unreasonable? Freedom has to be something more than "nothing left to lose". Bob
Response:
And that is why it will take all of us who believe in the right of the law abiding individual to own and know how to use a gun, to continue the fight. That story ought to send a chill up the backs of all the anti-gun nuts reading this. If this is what they want here in the U.S.A., then we are all screwed. Hugh
Gee Hugh, I get a chill right up my back every time Ii think that the guy in the next camp site might decide to shoot some imagined intruder, and hit my rig. Digger, AKA Grumps (old and crusty) All errors; spilling, grimatical, ore tieping intenshunal.
Response:
Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. Sounds like a socialist, communist, or liberal democrat to me. Steve ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~
Nah, just somebody that lives in the real world, and not on a tiny island. Your ego may be just such an island. Had any visitors lately? Wait. That was nasty. What I mean to say is, read it again. Doesn’t your life require a lot of give and take? That is what he is talking about. Is that unreasonable? Freedom has to be something more than "nothing left to lose". Bob
Response:
snipped Fred spent too many of his formative years in Britain, "whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met" by doing things like this: Roland Hopper will never forget his 11th birthday party – after an armed police team arrested him as he cut his cake.
http://icnewcastle.ic24.com/0100news/0100local/page.cfm?objectid=1101… — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.
And that is why it will take all of us who believe in the right of the law abiding individual to own and know how to use a gun, to continue the fight. That story ought to send a chill up the backs of all the anti-gun nuts reading this. If this is what they want here in the U.S.A., then we are all screwed. Hugh
Response:
So I take it you want the freedom to own slaves, the freedom to force your employees to shop at the company store, the freedom to dam up the river without regard for those downstream, the freedom to dump your garbage where you please, the freedom to noisily tune up the engine (on your bike) outside your neighbors open window, etc. etc. etc. Only someone who has benefited from involvement in military activities without being involved in the work that military does could be as biased as you seem to be. It is ironic that I, as an immigrant, should have to clarify to you, a native born, what freedom is. Maybe that is because the government had a choice in my case, and in you they had to take you for better or worse. Like most Rednecks you confuse freedom with what you percieve as your right to do anything you want. You don’t live on a desert island over which you hold domain, you live in a society that has to function as such, and cannot if each member thinks in the way you appear to think. Germany was a National Socialist country and for your education Socialist in that sense has no relationship to socialist in the community sense. It was a Dictatorship. It happened that Adolf Hitlers concept of freedom was similar to your own. He was just doing what he wanted (Liking killing Jews). He just carried it a bit further. The Whites in South Africa were just doing what they wanted too. Josef Stalin was a Dictator also. He was doing what he wanted too. Mussolini, and Sukarno in Indonesia. Idi Armin in Uganda. The list is endless down through the ages to Gengis Khan and beyond. All doing what they wanted. They managed to do what they wanted by creating the environment that allowed them to do it. I strongly suspect that you were born in the wrong century I think the 19th would have suited you better. You might have had trouble with industry at that time because the industrial barons were also doing their thing then, and your thing might not have suited them too well. The South prior to the Civil War would have suited you, if you had happened to be born to the right Father, otherwise you might have been in a societal limbo. Neither rich, nor as poor as the slave, but perhaps close. So to recap, your freedom leads to anarchy, mine leads to choice of the majority. We just haven’t found a good way to to deal with tyrrany of the majority. However it’s very encouraging when someone like Jeffers shows us how. BTW, George Orwell wrote "1984" because of his horror at what he saw going on in Germany. His "Animal Farm" was a bit closer because "Cromwell" the Pig was like yourself very kean on doing his own thing. Frederick The shameless veteran Navy of WW2 and Korea.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. Thats Orwellian doublespeak straight out of 1984 (the book)! Freedom *is* the *ability* to do what you want – period, *not* a "process". The "process" Young mentions instead comprises the foundation of socialism: the same socialism enjoyed in Germany under Hitler, the USSR under Stalin and now China – not freedom. The war of yankee aggression was indeed fought because of "the preponderance of that line of thinking in the south" vs NAZI-type ideas in the north; just as the revolutionary war was fought because of "the preponderance of that line of thinking in our founding fathers" vs the Brit notion that all "commoners" are serfs of royalty. A long career as a defense contractor gave me the priviledge of knowing many veterans of WW2, Korea and ‘Nam, including survivors of Pearl and other attacks. They’d all be ashamed of you Frederick.
Response:
snipped Fred spent too many of his formative years in Britain, "whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met" by doing things like this: Roland Hopper will never forget his 11th birthday party – after an armed police team arrested him as he cut his cake. http://icnewcastle.ic24.com/0100news/0100local/page.cfm?objectid=1101… — bill Theory don’t mean squat if it don’t work.
And that is why it will take all of us who believe in the right of the law abiding individual to own and know how to use a gun, to continue the fight. That story ought to send a chill up the backs of all the anyi-gun nuts reading this. If this is what they want here in the U.S.A., then we are all screwed. Hugh
Response:
Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. Thats Orwellian doublespeak straight out of 1984 (the book)! Freedom *is* the *ability* to do what you want – period, *not* a "process".
You’re both right. I agree with Old Biker that freedom is the ability to do what you want — so long as you don’t do others tangible harm. Unfortunately, there’s not much freedom of that kind in the United States. As a practical matter, Young’s definition is what actually happens in the United States. Example: I want to be and do things that tangibly harm no one. I can’t because the majority of others don’t want me to. That majority in the United States doesn’t care a whit about freedom as Old Biker defines it. They use their power to allow whatever *they* like and to outlaw whatever *they* don’t like. And, of course, in true Orwellian fashion, they insist that the United States is a free country. The "process" Young mentions instead comprises the foundation of socialism …
Actually the process Young describes is just plain old dictatorship. We see more of it under Republicans than under Democrats, but we see too damn much of it under either party. The freedom-hating dictatorship of the majority is as American as apple pie. Jenny
Response:
Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met.
Sounds like a socialist, communist, or liberal democrat to me. Steve ~ Illegitimi Non Carborundum ~
Response:
Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met.
Thats Orwellian doublespeak straight out of 1984 (the book)! Freedom *is* the *ability* to do what you want – period, *not* a "process". The "process" Young mentions instead comprises the foundation of socialism: the same socialism enjoyed in Germany under Hitler, the USSR under Stalin and now China – not freedom. The war of yankee aggression was indeed fought because of "the preponderance of that line of thinking in the south" vs NAZI-type ideas in the north; just as the revolutionary war was fought because of "the preponderance of that line of thinking in our founding fathers" vs the Brit notion that all "commoners" are serfs of royalty. A long career as a defense contractor gave me the priviledge of knowing many veterans of WW2, Korea and ‘Nam, including survivors of Pearl and other attacks. They’d all be ashamed of you Frederick.
Response:
John, As I read your commentary of these stories I detect an inner satisfaction that you feel from the resort to violence involved in them. Much the same as I detect in the fans of John Wayne. In both, the principle that violence is a last resort in pursuit of social justice seems to get lost. One can’t help thinking that the cry for freedom is an echo of the unshouted cry and love of violent action. Freedom is not the right to do what you or any individual wants, it is a process whereby the needs of as many people in a society as possible can be met, remembering that each individuals needs are not necessarily met. If each individual considers that the course a society takes should be his course, and resorts to violence to get it, that is anarchy. A civil war was fought because of the preponderance of that line of thinking in the south. Regrettably it still appears to be there, although perhaps not so widespread. The popular notion that military service produces men of violence is a complete fallacy. Men who have truly seen the horrors of war are sick of it and seek better methods of resolving problems. Even Dwight Eisenhower stated that "War is hell", and he saw enough of it in his lifetime. When he spoke of the Military Industrial Complex and the dangers that went with it, he was speaking from great experience. We should honor the sacrifice that men and women have made in the wars we have fought, but not all those wars were wars in defense of freedom. Some were crassly political and some should never have been fought at all. When we honor those who made a great sacrifice, it is perhaps more accurate that we honor their willingness to answer the call of their nation, and to make the sacrifices that war entails. However we should also recognize that there are many heroes who did not want to be heroes and were there against their will. Their heroism was in the act of preserving a much smaller unit than their nation. It was in trying to survive themselves, and to help those whom they were closest to in their unit, platoon or even ship, in the heat of combat, to also survive. Probably Freedom was the furthest from their mind at the time of their act of heroism. Make no mistake, in war, at the top of the list of priorities is "Survive". As the skyscraper steel construction worker says, "One hand for me, and one for the boss" Frederick
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – This thread came up on a private mailing list I’m on. Being Memorial Day weekend, I thought I’d share my contribution with the group. I’ve met some Vets, mostly at work, with some very interesting stories. On this weekend, I feel compeled to write about them. Likewise. Maj. Eben A. De Armond, US Army Ret., Dad I learned of the consequences of war from the very beginning. As a child, I didn’t really understand what had happened to Dad. I only knew that he barely walked with a cane, was sick all the time, went in the hospital several times a year for extensive surgery and would drop a piece of shrapnel out of his remaining hip every so often. He never talked about his war experience, never complained and never took any veterans benefits. I once heard him tell someone that the reason why was that being able to live in America was payment enough. I only learned of his exploits when I grew old enough that his old comrades in arms would talk to me as a man instead of a child. Dad was 16 when he and his mother forged a birth certificate so that he could join the National Guard. A year later he moved to the Army. He wanted to be career infantry. Hitler was just starting to secure his power. Within another year, he had made Seargent and was a drill instructor. Seven years from his enlistment when he was wounded, he was a Major in the Army Signal corps. He hit Bloody Omaha on D+1. He marched inland and engaged in the battle of St. Lo. One evening when his company had been given liberty, a report came in that the krauts had cut a como line. Rather than cancel a subordinate’s liberty pass, Dad volunteered to find the cut and repair it. He was standing on a French hedgerow splicing the wire when a kraut artillery round hit a nearby ammo truck. The truck exploded and blew his ass off. He lay in the path between two hedge rows for 3 days. According to a tank driver friend of Dad’s, the rows were so narrow that if they saw a body in the path, they had orders (and no choice but) to run over it. A miracle he survived that long. When he was found, he was transported to the beach, given a Blue Betty (morphine and Sulfa) and left for 3 more days. By the time he made it to the hospital ship, gas gangrene had set in on his hip and leg, along with osteomelitis, a disease that eats away the bone. Penicillin was in such short supply that urine was collected from the patients so that the waste penicillin could be filtered out and reused. Dad was triaged as "dying" and placed in a ward where the only treatment was morphine until death. A nurse thought he was cute and smuggled him enough penicillin so that he could be taken off death watch and moved to a treatment ward. I got to meet this lovely lady a few years ago. This lady told me his fever was so high that he popped the mercury capsule on her thermometer. Needless to say, I was in awe. They brought him back to the States on a hospital ship. He was placed in a government hospital where he spent the next 2 years in a body cast. He came home with no hip joint, one leg 8" shorter than the other and 17 pieces of shrapnel in his back, hip and legs. He has a chronic staph infection and until after I graduated from high school, he had a fistula from one of the pieces of shrapnel that drained continuously. Unfortunately the Army wasn’t as enlightened back then so they drummed him out with a disability discharge. He lost the only thing he’d ever wanted – a career in the army. My earliest memories were of my dad studying to pass the CPA license exam. He hated accounting and the study was rough but that was the only field of study open to him as a wounded veteran at the U of Chattanooga. True to the "press on regardless" ethic of that generation, Dad stuck it out, build a practice and provided us a comfortable life. Dad suffered badly from Post Traumatic Stress syndrome. Of course, they didn’t know about that back then, much less how to treat it. But it took his personality and inverted it. Whereas before, he was an aggressive soldier’s soldier, my early memories were of a quiet, introverted, passive man. A short fireplug of a man with arms the size of my thighs and who was the best shooter I’ve ever know (he was the Army’s champion marksman in ‘42). (I didn’t realize what this PTS thing was until I went through a the same thing after being trapped in my house fire.) Now he’s one of those guys who literally doesn’t have an enemy in this world. Though we’ve never had a real close relationship (real men don’t get squishy, after all!), he has been my role model and my hero for years. I’m in awe of his accomplishments and his tribulations and his sacrifices and cannot imagine going through that myself. During the Viet Nam war, like most of his generation, he hated the demonstrators and waved the flag with the best of them. But things were changing inside. I was lucky that a combination of "forgetting" to register for the draft for a year followed by very lucky lottery numbers kept me out of that mess. One of the most remarkable conversations I’ve ever had occurred a few years ago. He told me that in case I had been drafted, he had made quiet arrangements to sprint me off to Canada. I had no clue. He wasn’t willing to sacrifice another De Armond to a government he was beginning to loathe. He continues to be my sanity check as my hatred for the government builds while my love for America continues unabated. Not many people get to be born to and raised by a hero. I was one of the lucky ones. Sgt. Bill White, US Army, ret. Tellico Plains is a lovely little cove in the Great Smokey Mountains. There is great trout fishing, lovely mountains, plenty of trails to ride (until the Forest Service Gestapo came to town.), lots of woods to hunt. A perfect place for a young disabled GI and his bride to hide away. So started Dad’s relationship with the mountains. Over 50 years ago, mom and dad honeymooned there in a one room cabin owned by my uncle. Twenty five years ago, my wife and I did the same thing, only this time we had a small house that we refer to as the cabin. Just below the cabin was a HUGE log motel called the Tellico Lodge. I first met Bill White when we started camping in an RV at the adjacent RV park. Bill owned the Lodge. Bill was a tough-as-nails, quiet mountain man, the master of the one-word-sentence. Initially he didn’t like me and my brother too much because we were kids but after Bill and Dad met and clicked those invisible brotherhood rings that only combat veterans have, we became favorites of Bill. We shortly outgrew the camper and decided to build a cabin. The cabin was quickly built right behind the Lodge and we began to furnish it. Mom was always just a little paranoid so she had a burglar alarm installed. One day Bill was visiting the cabin and Mom told him about the alarm. She asked him if he’d call her if it ever went off. "No need", Bill said. "I’ll just shoot the bastards and then go back to sleep." His stature climbed immensely to all in the room. Then came the fire. Great guy that he was, Bill was not an electrician. The Lodge suffered the consequences. We arrived at
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Response:
This thread came up on a private mailing list I’m on. Being Memorial Day weekend, I thought I’d share my contribution with the group. I’ve met some Vets, mostly at work, with some very interesting stories. On this weekend, I feel compeled to write about them.
Likewise. Maj. Eben A. De Armond, US Army Ret., Dad I learned of the consequences of war from the very beginning. As a child, I didn’t really understand what had happened to Dad. I only knew that he barely walked with a cane, was sick all the time, went in the hospital several times a year for extensive surgery and would drop a piece of shrapnel out of his remaining hip every so often. He never talked about his war experience, never complained and never took any veterans benefits. I once heard him tell someone that the reason why was that being able to live in America was payment enough. I only learned of his exploits when I grew old enough that his old comrades in arms would talk to me as a man instead of a child. Dad was 16 when he and his mother forged a birth certificate so that he could join the National Guard. A year later he moved to the Army. He wanted to be career infantry. Hitler was just starting to secure his power. Within another year, he had made Seargent and was a drill instructor. Seven years from his enlistment when he was wounded, he was a Major in the Army Signal corps. He hit Bloody Omaha on D+1. He marched inland and engaged in the battle of St. Lo. One evening when his company had been given liberty, a report came in that the krauts had cut a como line. Rather than cancel a subordinate’s liberty pass, Dad volunteered to find the cut and repair it. He was standing on a French hedgerow splicing the wire when a kraut artillery round hit a nearby ammo truck. The truck exploded and blew his ass off. He lay in the path between two hedge rows for 3 days. According to a tank driver friend of Dad’s, the rows were so narrow that if they saw a body in the path, they had orders (and no choice but) to run over it. A miracle he survived that long. When he was found, he was transported to the beach, given a Blue Betty (morphine and Sulfa) and left for 3 more days. By the time he made it to the hospital ship, gas gangrene had set in on his hip and leg, along with osteomelitis, a disease that eats away the bone. Penicillin was in such short supply that urine was collected from the patients so that the waste penicillin could be filtered out and reused. Dad was triaged as "dying" and placed in a ward where the only treatment was morphine until death. A nurse thought he was cute and smuggled him enough penicillin so that he could be taken off death watch and moved to a treatment ward. I got to meet this lovely lady a few years ago. This lady told me his fever was so high that he popped the mercury capsule on her thermometer. Needless to say, I was in awe. They brought him back to the States on a hospital ship. He was placed in a government hospital where he spent the next 2 years in a body cast. He came home with no hip joint, one leg 8" shorter than the other and 17 pieces of shrapnel in his back, hip and legs. He has a chronic staph infection and until after I graduated from high school, he had a fistula from one of the pieces of shrapnel that drained continuously. Unfortunately the Army wasn’t as enlightened back then so they drummed him out with a disability discharge. He lost the only thing he’d ever wanted – a career in the army. My earliest memories were of my dad studying to pass the CPA license exam. He hated accounting and the study was rough but that was the only field of study open to him as a wounded veteran at the U of Chattanooga. True to the "press on regardless" ethic of that generation, Dad stuck it out, build a practice and provided us a comfortable life. Dad suffered badly from Post Traumatic Stress syndrome. Of course, they didn’t know about that back then, much less how to treat it. But it took his personality and inverted it. Whereas before, he was an aggressive soldier’s soldier, my early memories were of a quiet, introverted, passive man. A short fireplug of a man with arms the size of my thighs and who was the best shooter I’ve ever know (he was the Army’s champion marksman in ‘42). (I didn’t realize what this PTS thing was until I went through a the same thing after being trapped in my house fire.) Now he’s one of those guys who literally doesn’t have an enemy in this world. Though we’ve never had a real close relationship (real men don’t get squishy, after all!), he has been my role model and my hero for years. I’m in awe of his accomplishments and his tribulations and his sacrifices and cannot imagine going through that myself. During the Viet Nam war, like most of his generation, he hated the demonstrators and waved the flag with the best of them. But things were changing inside. I was lucky that a combination of "forgetting" to register for the draft for a year followed by very lucky lottery numbers kept me out of that mess. One of the most remarkable conversations I’ve ever had occurred a few years ago. He told me that in case I had been drafted, he had made quiet arrangements to sprint me off to Canada. I had no clue. He wasn’t willing to sacrifice another De Armond to a government he was beginning to loathe. He continues to be my sanity check as my hatred for the government builds while my love for America continues unabated. Not many people get to be born to and raised by a hero. I was one of the lucky ones. Sgt. Bill White, US Army, ret. Tellico Plains is a lovely little cove in the Great Smokey Mountains. There is great trout fishing, lovely mountains, plenty of trails to ride (until the Forest Service Gestapo came to town.), lots of woods to hunt. A perfect place for a young disabled GI and his bride to hide away. So started Dad’s relationship with the mountains. Over 50 years ago, mom and dad honeymooned there in a one room cabin owned by my uncle. Twenty five years ago, my wife and I did the same thing, only this time we had a small house that we refer to as the cabin. Just below the cabin was a HUGE log motel called the Tellico Lodge. I first met Bill White when we started camping in an RV at the adjacent RV park. Bill owned the Lodge. Bill was a tough-as-nails, quiet mountain man, the master of the one-word-sentence. Initially he didn’t like me and my brother too much because we were kids but after Bill and Dad met and clicked those invisible brotherhood rings that only combat veterans have, we became favorites of Bill. We shortly outgrew the camper and decided to build a cabin. The cabin was quickly built right behind the Lodge and we began to furnish it. Mom was always just a little paranoid so she had a burglar alarm installed. One day Bill was visiting the cabin and Mom told him about the alarm. She asked him if he’d call her if it ever went off. "No need", Bill said. "I’ll just shoot the bastards and then go back to sleep." His stature climbed immensely to all in the room. Then came the fire. Great guy that he was, Bill was not an electrician. The Lodge suffered the consequences. We arrived at the cabin to find a smothering heap where that magnificent log mansion had stood. Bill never said a bad word about the fire that I ever heard. He simply built a small house next to the ashes and carried on operating the small general store that was detached from the Lodge and didn’t burn. I knew Bill was a war hero. Everyone did. He fought at Corregidor and Bataan, being one of the few to escape. I knew he was missing a finger and had a huge scar on his chest from fighting a sword fight with a Jap general in a blacked out underground bunker. The Jap got Bill’s little finger and stuck him good. Bill got the Jap’s sword, his uniform, his scalp and his life. He had pounds of medals. And he was locally famous for killing a black bear with a home-made indian spear and hunting Russian Boar with a knife. But I had no idea what sort of hero he really was. Then one day Bill came up to the cabin with a small box like shirts used to come back from the cleaners in. He told Dad he wanted to show him something. Inside was a stack of old newspaper clippings and other old documents. On top was a clipping of a newspaper photo showing one of the baddest dudes I’d ever seen. This guy was standing on a makeshift platform speaking to a crowd. He was dressed in battle fatigue pants and a white tee shirt with a pack of smokes twisted up in the sleeves. Arms the size of tree trunks came out of those sleeves. Held over his head in one hand was an M1 Garrand. Bill was organizing what became known as the Battle of Athens. I had heard about the Battle of Athens. Mom and Dad told us about coming over a hill on Highway 11 and being stopped by a National Guard road block. But I never made the connection. Then the Statute of Limitation ran out and Bill completed the story. Bill and his GI brothers had returned home to find that his town had been taken over by political thugs, something known as "The Machine". Unlike most people, Bill and his buddies were not about to give up the rights they’d just fought for without a fight. And fight they did. The fight was so good a book was written about it. Rather than recount the Battle in my words, I’ll allow the author of the book, Howard Cook do it for me. What follows is first a scan of the dust jacket and then part of the first chapter of the book. Any typos are brought to you by Hewlett Packard and Omniscan 
SWIFTER THAN EAGLES BILL WHITE AND THE BATTLE OF ATHENS by HOWARD COOK ISBN 0-938212-00-1 Incredible! The word used again and again to describe the Battle of Athens in 1946 is still the only word that adequately sums it up. "It was incredible," wrote the staid Chattanooga Times on the day after … read more »
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