Question:
:Looks like I wasn’t the only one trying to win this week’s carnage prize. 
id you recover your self-confidence (and gear), Jesse? : Little early in the day to be talking about recovering self-confidence, : innit? I’ve been in car accidents where I almost died, and didn’t really have much trouble getting back in another car. : Close call = wake-up call. I will definitely pay more attention to scouting stuff that looks like no big deal from now on. But I still feel this river was well within my ability. The big question I am asking myself is about the venues that are appropriate for my Ultrafuge. I made all the moves I was going for yesterday (and the day before) but one big stern squirt put me in a bad spot. I had my Stubby on my car, I could’ve paddled that, but then again, I paddle my ‘fuge about ten times more often than my Stubby, so does that mean it is safer because of familiarity? The thing I wonder about is my pretty firm conviction that I would run that rapid again at the same level in the same boat. I would just know that there was a move down there I had to make. Am I nuts for thinking this? I like to think I have pretty good judgement and good risk management skills, but could I just be a crazy 21 year old who’s vision is clouded by excess testosterone? The Burrito Beast struck, I guess. I will pour a little of my next beer out for ya, Raoul. — jesse kodadek, missoula, mt jkodadek at visi dot com
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – [...stuff...] I am not likely to ask someone who just screwed up what the hell they were doing. [...] unless 1. What they did directly affected my safety (a certain stranger pushing me into a pin comes to mind). 2. What they did was both life threatening and easily fixed (a friend drifting into a low head dam parallel to the back wash with no speed and no attempt to paddle comes to mind). 3. We reached the take out. Neither of the situations described in this thread rises to those standards.
Gary, I guess I read Wilko’s trip report differently. I don’t know Wilko, but it sounded like a case of, experienced boater puts on to a class IV river with strainers, and without realizing that his skill with his chosen equipment (i.e., hand paddles) is not sufficient for him to avoid the strainers. In other words, it sounded like he should have known better. I don’t want you to think that I berate beginners who don’t know better, and I don’t want you to think that I berate victims who are trembling in a state of shock, and many cold miles from the take out. But, if it’s my friend, and if I *KNOW* he should have known better, and if he’s just smiling like it’s no big deal; then I’ll give him my opinion. Like I said, my friends have done it to me. It’s how I know they care. I guess my mistake here was to get involved in somebody else’s conversation. I don’t know Wilko, I don’t know Mary, I should have kept out of it. Sorry, — Jim L.
Response:
Some Pretty stupid paddlers here.
| PLEASE || | DO NOT || | FEED THE || | TROLLS || | | | | PLEASE FEEL FREE TO BORROW THE SIGN FOLKS SO FAR IT SEEMS THE MOST EFFECTIVE MEANS OF PEST CONTROL PLF Nidge
Response:
: When somebody screws up on a river, they usually know they screwed up. More : likely than not, we have a lot of river left to run. They need to get their : act back together as quickly as possible. They need to be sharp mentally Exactly. The last thing I needed after swimming to shore from the midstream boulder was any negative commentary on my poor line. As if I didn’t know. Maybe if I would’ve blundered through the slot and thought the whole thing was a big joke, then I might’ve needed a good talking to. But I am not foolish enough to think my pin was No Big Deal. The fact that there was a friend with a truck right there changed the situation slightly. It would’ve been incredibly easy (and understandable, I think) if I would’ve thrown my boat on his truck and not run the next rapid, which I have already mentioned was by far the longest and biggest on the run. I figured I better just get back in and go – what if something like this were to happen on a wilderness run and I had no choice? It is good to know I can get back in my boat after a bad situation and still paddle safely and competently. — jesse kodadek, missoula, mt jkodadek at selway dot umt dot edu
Response:
[...] Mary Malmros [wrote]: [...] "What the hell are y’all DOIN’?" Trying to recover from something that went wrong. Well, I think she’s right to ask. If I’d been there when you had your encounter, I’d have asked the same question right after, "Are you O.K.?" It’s a question I’ve been asked a few times. It’s how I know people care whether I live or die.
I am not likely to ask someone who just screwed up what the hell they were doing. I might ask them before if I know they are thinking of doing something I consider to be foolish but I will not do it afterward unless 1. What they did directly affected my safety (a certain stranger pushing me into a pin comes to mind). 2. What they did was both life threatening and easily fixed (a friend drifting into a low head dam parallel to the back wash with no speed and no attempt to paddle comes to mind). 3. We reached the take out. Neither of the situations described in this thread rises to those standards. When somebody screws up on a river, they usually know they screwed up. More likely than not, we have a lot of river left to run. They need to get their act back together as quickly as possible. They need to be sharp mentally and relaxed physically or they are more likely to screw up again. My getting into their face and into their head works counter to those goals. I’d rather they compartmentalize the situation, finish the run and contemplate the situation later. That seems to be what is happening here with Wilko. Gary
Response:
:Looks like I wasn’t the only one trying to win this week’s carnage prize. id you recover your self-confidence (and gear), Jesse? : Little early in the day to be talking about recovering self-confidence, : innit? I’ve been in car accidents where I almost died, and didn’t really have much trouble getting back in another car.
This could be purely a matter of individual reaction; I wasn’t trying to say, "Gee, no one’s gonna have self-confidence after a near-death experience!" What I was getting at was that for most folks, the same day of a near-death experience is probably early for trying to recover your self-confidence _as a goal_. If it happens, great, but if — as would be true of many/most folks — your self-confidence is shook after a near-death on the river, I think it’s probably premature to think that you _ought_ to be "fixing" it. As an aside, I wonder if cars are different. For most of us, our paddling is governed more by pleasure than by necessity, while the opposite is true of our driving — or at least, if you want to say that necessity governs both, the need to paddle (for those not making a living at it) is different from the need to drive to work so you can keep a roof over your head. People who’ve had a bad car accident are still expected to get back in the saddle pretty quickly, as long as they’re physically capable of doing so. Whether that’s the ideal way of handling it is a different matter. : Close call = wake-up call. I will definitely pay more attention to scouting stuff that looks like no big deal from now on. But I still feel this river was well within my ability. The big question I am asking myself is about the venues that are appropriate for my Ultrafuge. I made all the moves I was going for yesterday (and the day before) but one big stern squirt put me in a bad spot. I had my Stubby on my car, I could’ve paddled that, but then again, I paddle my ‘fuge about ten times more often than my Stubby, so does that mean it is safer because of familiarity?
And I’m sure in no position to tell you what you shoulda done. To rephrase what I said, a close call is a gift, a gift of information, or wisdom. I think it’s not always immediately obvious just the message is. And I think the message is often quite complex, whereas tick-lists of "what I did wrong" are simplistic. Most of all, while I’m pretty sure that a message was there in your accident, I think only you will ever really know just what the message was. The thing I wonder about is my pretty firm conviction that I would run that rapid again at the same level in the same boat. I would just know that there was a move down there I had to make. Am I nuts for thinking this? I like to think I have pretty good judgement and good risk management skills, but could I just be a crazy 21 year old who’s vision is clouded by excess testosterone?
Suppose it’s a possibility, but excess testosterone and thoughtful analysis don’t often go hand in hand 
Maybe that was the message, or part of it: knowing what you now know about that rapide that you didn’t know before. And knowing that other rapids might turn out the same way. Glad yer okay, in any event. It sounded pretty scary. Give yourself credit for keeping your wits about you; it got you through. — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart for the joys of the multitude"
Response:
: Eek! : Looks like I wasn’t the only one trying to win this week’s carnage prize. : Did you recover your self-confidence (and gear), Jesse? Yeah, Elvez chased all my gear down. I decided I better just keep going (the guy on the bank wasn’t paddling, and had his truck there) or else my confidence might be forever harmed. The biggest rapid, by far, was right around the corner. I had a bad feeling in the pit of my stomach but knew it was well within my ability. I had no problems, but it probably would have been a lot more fun without the realization that I had just gotten VERY lucky, and that my poor line could’ve been my last. Glad you are ok too, Wilko. — jesse kodadek, missoula, mt jkodadek at selway dot umt dot edu
Response:
Little early in the day to be talking about recovering self-confidence, innit? Why’s that, Mary?
Probably because it’s the same day as a near death experience. I suffered from post-traumatic stress syndrome as a result of my near miss last summer. A friend (who is also a practicing clinical psychologist) pointed out to me that everytime I talked about the incident, I started laughing inappropriately. We’re talking here about an incident in which I really thought I was going to die. I still remember putting my head water to see how it would feel, and sensing all the bubbles rushing by my head, and thinking, "I thought drowning was supposed to be peaceful. This is not peaceful!" and struggling into a heads-up position once more and screaming my head off for help. – Mothra
Response:
[...] Mary Malmros [wrote]: [...] "What the hell are y’all DOIN’?" Trying to recover from something that went wrong.
Well, I think she’s right to ask. If I’d been there when you had your encounter, I’d have asked the same question right after, "Are you O.K.?" It’s a question I’ve been asked a few times. It’s how I know people care whether I live or die. One time, a long time ago, I tried to ferry above an ugly pourover with its exit blocked by a boulder seive. After I escaped from it, the guy I was running with said with a slightly amused look, "I guess you got recirculated in that, huh?" and, "I was kind of surprised when you tried that ferry." I always knew he was kind of a bum, but he was an expert paddler, and I thought I could learn something from him. When he DIDN’T ask what the hell I thought I was doing, I learned that I didn’t care to ever follow him down another river. — Jim L. P.S.: It’s not the hand paddles. *ANYTHING* and strainers is a bad combination.
Response:
It is rumoured that Mary Malmros couldn’t help typing: Eek! Looks like I wasn’t the only one trying to win this week’s carnage prize. Did you recover your self-confidence (and gear), Jesse? Little early in the day to be talking about recovering self-confidence, innit? Why’s that, Mary?
Because, from the description, it was a very recent event. IMO, that’s a good time to sit back and reflect, rather than charging right back out there. Note that this has nothing to do with handling the situation calmly as it is happening; if you’re posting about it on usenet, you’re past that point. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -I sat on my hands for several posts in this thread. But the thought I’ve had, in reading just about every post, is: "What the hell are y’all DOIN’?" Trying to recover from something that went wrong. BTW, I’m not the one that needs to know the answer to that question. Close call = wake-up call. And what about that (very wise) remark isn’t being addressed here? I think that I have learned something useful from this incident, i.e. being a lot more cautious about what I will run with handpaddles. However, it won’t affect the type of water nor the difficulty of what I run. This might not be how you would handle this, Mary, but it’s how this works for me.
Simmer down, Wilko, nobody said you weren’t free to handle it however you want. But when I read your account, I was struck by the fact that the hand paddles were only one of several "yellow lights". You’re focusing your (public) analysis on that one specific aspect of what happened, and you’re entitled to do so. But you did bring it up in a public forum, and so I don’t think it’s inappropriate for me to say that, in your place, I’d be looking at what happened with a wider focus. — :::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: "I would not exchange the sorrows of my heart for the joys of the multitude"
Response:
I think you could be more direct about WlLKO’s suicidal/homicidal behavior. Remember his paddling companions he said died in the weir, that he then ran? Twice as many WW boats sold have sponsons built-in, compared to the kind that kill almost all of the people (like Wilko). Depending on human skills to save human life is stupid. Rolls fail. And so does judgment. Wilko won’t know he’s dead when it happens. A 10 year old child can turn any ACA instructor into a FOOL in 20 seconds. Clip, clip, the Fastex buckles and any kayak or canoe is stable enough to paddle fully flooded, to safety. The paddler gets warmed immediately. And the body core is out of cold water in 20 seconds. Plus Re-capsize protection. 1. The Instructor is still in the water. 2. The instructor denies the public re-capsize protection, even in a fully flooded canoe or kayak that can be paddled in 20 seconds. 3. The instructor kills people this way. www.sponsonguy.com
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m sure glad we’re able to talk about this one; seriously Wilko, you’ve been featured in threads like how to handle fear etc. enough to last you a couple of years now. Also it seems youknowwho is using such stories to fight for cred, though I can’t see the use of a beach ball in a strainer, — Peik Borud Norway peik<atonline.no Got in a bit of a tight spot today: snip "Look Mum: No sense!"
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