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: Well, I *did* mean obsessive-compulsive. I have it myself. I : said it looks that way, because you seem obsessed with the Navy : and a few other things as they seem to be mentioned in most of : your posts… <g It was not meant as an insult, and please The Navy and my dialect talent. I admit I’m quite passionate about the dialects and I hate the military with an equal passion. I did not take it as an insult, since I thought you meant ODD. No worries in any case. I guess my thing with the dialects is like the thing with "born-again" religious types. Instead of being a born-again Christian, I’m a "Born Again Australian"! Both the Navy and the dialects have been major events in my life. The Navy being severely negative, and the dialects being positive. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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: Ned, you sure had an unfortunate experience. That is extremely : clear. But it is not that way for everyone. Maybe it would : help if you told us exactly what "field" you went into in the : Navy. (Or do they even give you a choice? I know that in the I was in the enginerooms of the ship I was on as a "Machinist’s Mate". : Air Force and the Marines, you are given choices of specialty. What they don’t say is that sometimes, your assignment can be changed without warning. While often you do get your choice, there are some who don’t and/or fall for the sales pitch. : Let’s confine that to the Navy, shall we? I’ve certainly nothing : to argue with concerning Navy=bad experience. Enough good : stories from the Marine Corps and Air Force though. Can we : compromise? <grin I guess I got REALLY turned off! — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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Hi, I was at a lecture once and this issue came up. The consensus was that the military can be an ideal situation for some ADDers. The structure provided can be just what is needed for someone who has difficulty in organizing their life. It was noted in the lecture that there is in fact a lot of hidden ADD within the military. The variety and excitement of certain occupations can be a good match. I myself am retired military and now a voc rehab counselor with special interest in ADD.
That is exactly my point. This type of decision is *individual*. When I was on active duty there were some people with obvious mental problems. Some of these problems fit in quite well with military life. Others clashed. BTW, who were you with and what years of service? Now the caveats: —snip—- According to the local recruiting office he needs to have been off medication for at least 5 years. If he does not admit to it and they find out it may be a problem, however, I think that it would be hard for them to confirm this unless he got a job that required a particularly rigorous background investigation.
Don’t apply for something that requires a security clearance. I maintain mine, and I have learned who they speak to in the investigation. Even my second grade teacher (my first grade teacher had died) was contacted (albeit years ago, but, they are thorough). This is one area where it is impossible to hide anything. Mark S. Probert Merrick, New York
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: A slight diversion, but this article might be worth reading for anyone : interested in military and ADHD. See .sig below. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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: Hi, I was at a lecture once and this issue came up. The consensus was that : the military can be an ideal situation for some ADDers. The structure But is the risk worth it? : provided can be just what is needed for someone who has difficulty in : organizing their life. It was noted in the lecture that there is in fact : a lot of hidden ADD within the military. The variety and excitement of Fighter jocks, maybe. My expierences points to the military being for the masochistic type who don’t mind surrendering their personalities at the gate. Ask yourself this: Was lecturer ever "in"? Need some caveats about the military? See .sig below and weep. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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Hello, This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life? Thanks. Linda
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Hello, This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life? Thanks. Linda
Linda, meet Ned. (He’ll be here shortly.) Check out Glenn Danforth’s Humor Factory at: *** http://www.cris.com/~nd1irish/index.htm *** 28 pages of humor and growing. (Like a malignant tumor!)
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He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life?
I can’t speak for the Navy specifically. As Glenn said, Ned will be along shortly to discuss that (Hint: His signature "tag line" reads "The Navy: It’s not just a job, it’s $cientology Lite"). I have some experience with the military as a officer trainee (cadet) at the US Air Force Academy. I did not graduate. It is probably different than enlisted service in many significant ways, but in some important ways it’s all the same military. First, the military is all about FOCUSED ATTENTION. From the beginning, drill instructor will bring one to task (ha!) for not focusing on what seem to trivial details (IT’S NOT A GUN IT’S A RIFLE!! FEET AT A PRECISE 45 DEGREE ANGLE! THUMBS PRECISELY ALONG THE SEAMS OF YOU TROUSERS! PANTS, BELT BUCKLE, SHIRT ALL LINED UP FLUSH ON THE RIGHT SEAM!). This aspect of military life was particularly hard on me. Because I did not find any of these details the least bit interesting, it was EXTREMELY hard for me to focus on them. I now see that difficulty as almost a defining characteristic of ADD. AND IT NEVER GOES AWAY!! IN THE MILITARY SOMEONE IS ALWAYS TRYING TO FOCUS YOUR ATTENTION ON SOMETHING THAT SEEMS TRIVIAL. Second, cleanliness and organization. Like many ADDers, I have emense trouble keeping organized. My desk behind me right now is a mass of papers and books. I stopped carrying a comb years ago, because, except for that moment in front of the mirror every morning, I NEVER think to comb my hair. In the military there are inspections of all types, daily personal appearance inspections, weekly room/work-site inspections, inspections before and after parades, beginning and end of work shift, etc., etc., etc. And I was quite simply incapable of doing it! In my tests and homework I was at the head of my class in freshman chemistry, but I was flunking lab because I COULD NOT KEEP MY LAB AREA SPOTLESS. I used to have nightmares of scrubbing one last almost clean spot in my room for hours until it was perfect, then turning present my room for inspection and seeing my clothes strewn everywhere. The real inspections were different from the nightmare only in degree. No matter how well I thought I had prepared, there were always an enormous number of disorganized and "dirty" places in my room. Third, conformity. This one is too painful, you’ll just have to take my word for it. A military unit has to "think as a team"; suffice it to say I never understood my unit and my unit never understood me. I am not saying that everyone has to be a perfect clone of everone else, but they have to understand each other’s strengths, weaknesses, ways of thinking, ways of acting, etc., etc. I never got there. Well, that’s about as far as I can go tonight. I expect Ned will take it from here, if he feels like talking about it.
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Hello, This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life?
Some ADHDers have reoported VERY positive experiences in military life ("Hunters," remember?) Others, such as Ned Kelly (and you’ll doubtless hear from him shortly) found it to be unadulterated Hell. Part of the discrepancy may have to do with the nature of the environment. NK was shipboard in the Navy, where there is more than the usual military intolerance for deviation and no escape for months at a time (and frankly, I’m quite content that the ordies and Air Boss are nitpicking superfarmers, thank you.) OTOH, Army and Air Force routines are different and leave some slack that is probably necessary for ADHDers. Maybe the best bet would be to talk to an Army recruiter and set up a visit to a base where he can actually get an idea of how life in the Service works. — D. C. Sessions
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Hello, I posted recently regarding my 17 year old son who has ADHD and has just gotten his GED. I asked if anyone knew about the military and people with this disability. I have not received any replies, so thought I would give it one more try. I need some facts as we are making some decisions. Thanks, Linda Morris
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I can’t help you much. But what I have heard is that if you are on stimulant drugs (i.e. Ritilan) you can’t take it while in the military. On the other hand, if I am wrong, then the strict scheduling and lifestyle will be good. Only problem comes when you get out and have to answer to yourself for yourself with no structure then. Actually I think Ned Kelly who posts here often will have a very NEGATIVE opinion…but then ask Ned… good luck Nessa Hello, I posted recently regarding my 17 year old son who has ADHD and has just gotten his GED. I asked if anyone knew about the military and people with this disability. I have not received any replies, so thought I would give it one more try. I need some facts as we are making some decisions. Thanks, Linda Morris
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life? Some ADHDers have reoported VERY positive experiences in military life ("Hunters," remember?) Others, such as Ned Kelly (and you’ll doubtless hear from him shortly) found it to be unadulterated Hell. Part of the discrepancy may have to do with the nature of the environment.
Part of it also may be ignorance versus knowledge. Here are some excerpts from an e-mail that I sent Linda earlier today: : : Linda: : : Hello, : I posted recently regarding my 17 year old son who has ADHD and has just : gotten his GED. I asked if anyone knew about the military and people : with this disability. I have not received any replies, so thought I : would give it one more try. [snip] : Did you intend for us to send you e-mail replies? Nothing in your : original posting said anything like "please respond by e-mail," so : the four of us who have responded sent followup postings to the : newsgroup. They are enclosed below for your convenience. : : My posting is "POSTING #2" below. I stand by every bitter word, but : please remember while reading it that my ADD was *UNDIAGNOSED* at the : time. I knew I was having trouble with things everyone else could : do, but I didn’t know WHY. Knowing what the pitfalls are, and having : a strategy to cope with them, could make someone else’s military : experience a good deal more positive than mine was. [snip] : Good luck to you and your son! And feel free to reply by e-mail if : you think there is anything I can do to help. : [snip (copies of postings)] XXXX / /XXX / X / X///X / *** Software Instructor *** / / / / / / X / X / X X DISCLAIMER HAIKU: //X/ XX //X/ X X X / X/X X C R^H^H^H^H S G I may not / X///X / / X//XX X / X X Share these opinions with me / X X // X X X///X /XXX/ X///X /XXX/ This is not my fault
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: Just curious, Ned — are you *only* ADD or do you have OCD as : well? Sometimes it *looks* that way! <g If you mean ODD, maybe. I was never diagnosed with ODD. Any ODD I may have was definitely brought out by the military environment. Before I joined, I was mildly conservative, now I’m a rabid liberal/libertarian, the exact opposite of the current GOP. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military You will hear some very negative comments about the Navy from one of our regulars. However, every ADHDer is an individual. Perhaps speaking with your son’s therapist (if he has one) or one referred toyou by the Navy would be a good idea. It IS a tough decision. I do know of one ADHDer who was 1st Trainee in his Marine Boot Camp class. Mark S. Probert Merrick, New York
Hi, I was at a lecture once and this issue came up. The consensus was that the military can be an ideal situation for some ADDers. The structure provided can be just what is needed for someone who has difficulty in organizing their life. It was noted in the lecture that there is in fact a lot of hidden ADD within the military. The variety and excitement of certain occupations can be a good match. I myself am retired military and now a voc rehab counselor with special interest in ADD. My son has it– combined type and I think it would be a good thing for him to try. I did quite well in the service and probably have ADD as well (I have given myself the Brown Adult ADD screen). Now the caveats: If your son cannot control impulsivity or has comorbid personality disorder, the military may not be for him. A good way to assess this is his high school experience–suspensions, disciplinary actions, fights, contacts with law enforcement, conflicts with authority. Another thing to watch out for is the admission of medication. According to the local recruiting office he needs to have been off medication for at least 5 years. If he does not admit to it and they find out it may be a problem, however, I think that it would be hard for them to confirm this unless he got a job that required a particularly rigorous background investigation. Good luck, Mike M
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Panel Releases Report on Human Radiation Experiments The American Institute of Physics Bulletin of Science Policy News Number 147: October 20, 1995 "The information that is available indicates that the physical harm from the radiation is probably less than the damage – to individuals, communities, and the government – caused by the initial secrecy, however well motivated, and by subsequent failures to deal honestly with the public thereafter." — Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments After a year and a half of intensive investigating, collecting hundreds of thousands of pages of records, holding public hearings and private interviews, the Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments has released its final report. The huge 925-page volume provides an unprecedented, in-depth review and analysis of past radiation research on human subjects in the context of the ethical standards and policy guidelines of the times. It also includes a review of current policies, and recommendations on how to compensate victims of past abuses as well as to ensure that no similar abuses occur in the future. The Committee was formed by President Clinton in January 1994,after the end of the Cold War and press coverage of radiation experiments prompted Energy Secretary Hazel O’Leary to decide that the history should be made public. The President met with committee members at the first meeting on April 21, 1994. According to the report, he urged them to "tell the full story to the American public," and to "ensure that whatever wrongdoing may have occurred in the past cannot be repeated." The 14-member Committee is composed of experts in various aspects of medicine, health, ethics, history and law, and a citizen representative. It was charged with reviewing the history of government-sponsored human radiation experiments and intentional radiation releases between 1944 and 1974, and determining "the ethical and scientific standards by which to evaluate" them. The committee was also authorized to examine samples of current research on human subjects. The committee reports that it "had to collect information scattered in warehouses throughout the country… [and] create and test the framework needed to ensure that there would be a ‘big picture’ into which all the pieces of the puzzle would fit." Although many records had inevitably been lost or destroyed, the document commends the cabinet-level Human Radiation Interagency Working Group – comprised of the secretaries of defense, energy, HHS, VA, and other government officials – for their efforts at making federal records available. The report follows the government’s history of human radiation experiments, beginning with Second World War and Cold War-era concerns about preparing for and surviving an atomic war. The Committee was able to trace, from existing documents, the evolution of ethical standards for human-subject research over the time period studied. An important benchmark in scientific ethics was the 1947 development of the Nuremberg Code as a standard by which to judge Nazi researchers. The committee found that the concept of informed consent from subjects was commonly used in human experimentation prior to that, going back to the turn-of-the-century use of military volunteers in Yellow Fever research. A number of government agencies and officials, in particular the Atomic Energy Commission (AEC), held discussions and formulated statements about the need for informed consent in radiation experiments, but these guidelines, the report says, were often not made public or effectively disseminated to theexperimenters who needed them. Policies for use of radiation on sick patients and vulnerable populations were less clear-cut and slower to evolve, according to the report. In the case of sick subjects in particular, the report finds that issues of doctor-patient confidence and the possibility of potential benefits clouded the ethics issue. It was only in 1974, the endpoint of the committee’s study, that the Department of Health, Education and Welfare adopted a comprehensive set of regulations for all human-subject research, and not until 1991 that the regulations were instituted government-wide. Over the 30-year period, the committee reports that the government sponsored, through several different agencies, thousands of human radiation experiments and several hundred intentional releases of radiation. The committee found that the majority of experiments were radioactive tracer studies that were "unlikely to have caused physical harm," and asserts that overall, "the legacy of distrust…is probably more significant than the legacy of physical harm." In some cases, the committee holds the government and government officials responsible for failure to disseminate and implement their own policies. In other instances, it charges that individual researchers were responsible when they did not comply with the accepted standards of professional ethics at the time. With respect to experiments most closely related to national security, the committee says, "it does not appear that such considerations would have barred satisfying the basic elements of voluntary consent." To the question of whether similar abuses could occur again,particularly in the case of intentional releases, the committee gives "a qualified yes." It notes that some agencies can still invoke national security considerations to waive consent requirements, that agencies are often responsible for their own oversight, and that environmental impact statements relating to classified projects are not available for public scrutiny. The report recommends numerous changes to current federal policies; most significantly, it calls for elimination of all exemptions from informed consent requirements. On the subject of compensation, the committee suggests that the government provide a personal, individualized apology to those people used as research subjects without their knowledge, or to surviving family members. If physical harm resulted, or if the government deliberately attempted to conceal their participation to avoid liability or embarrassment, the committee recommends that the government also provide financial compensation. A copy of the report, with additional materials, will be available on Internet at http://www.seas.gwu.edu/nsarchive/radiation. The report may also be purchased from the Superintendent of Documents,GPO, at (202)512-1800; fax (202)512-2250. In response to many of the concerns indicated by the committee, on October 3 President Clinton announced that a National Bioethics Advisory Commission will be established by executive order. All federal agencies involved in human-subject research are ordered to review their policies for such research, taking "account of the recommendations contained in the report of the Advisory Committee on Human Radiation Experiments," and report within 120 days to the Bioethics Commission.
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: Actually, the service is considered to be a pretty good choice for a : lot of us–the "in your face" discipline of the service keeps us on : our toes, at least for a while. I would, however, not choose the : Navy–there’s a bar at the end of every pier, and a lot of ADD sailors : never make it past it…. I have had an email conversation with Thom Hartmann about this very issue. He has tended to agree with me about the military being a bad choice in the majority of cases. He hated it. The military is a bad choice for an ADDer, unless the ADDer is so well-adjusted he could pass for normie anyways. As far as the pub at the end of the pier, a lot of normie sailors don’t make it past it either. Also, if you’re doing Rit, the militray will not give it to you. The military is VERY ignorant about this issue. They can care less. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military
You will hear some very negative comments about the Navy from one of our regulars. However, every ADHDer is an individual. Perhaps speaking with your son’s therapist (if he has one) or one referred toyou by the Navy would be a good idea. It IS a tough decision. I do know of one ADHDer who was 1st Trainee in his Marine Boot Camp class. Mark S. Probert Merrick, New York
Response:
Hello, This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life? Thanks. Linda
The best thing you can tell your child is NO, do NOT even consider joining the Military as an option. You have to give up ALL righ= ts under the Constitution and may have to commit crimes against humanity. Explain to him that it is important for him to do somethi= ng constructive in his life, and that cannot be achieved by joining an organization whose 2 major purposes are to kill and destroy. = We all must work together in making this Planet Earth a safe and healthy place, but that can never be achieved by guns, tanks, or = nuclear bombs! Plus, he may be exposed to toxic chemicals and will probably not be compensated for it, such as: *World War II Veterans exposed to Atomic Radiation *Vietnam Vets exposed to Agent Orange *Gulf War Vets exposed to Gulf War Syndrome. Plus, he may be ordered to kill women, children and innocent civilians. This could lead to Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome and other= maladies later in life. Please seek out and read the book by Tod Ensign and Michael Uhl called "GI Guinea Pigs: How The Pentagon Exposed Our Troops To Dange= rs More Deadly Than War."
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: Hello, G’day. : This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few : answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and : is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have : disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been : discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his : qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military : life? Please, read my web page about my disasterous expierences in the Navy. I can’t handle college either, and I tried the Navy too. I got absolutely no marketable job skills in there, unless I can market my Aussie drinking accent. It’s a waste of time, and it can be ruinous to at least some ADDers. Has your son had a bad childhood with no friends? If so, the cretins in there will pick up where the class bullies left off. At best, it’s a waste of time. At worst, it’s a ticket to Leavenworth. It’s just not worth it. ADD and the military go together as well as drinking and driving. Please. Read my Web Page, and show your son my Web Page. I can’t stress this enough. Posted and mailed. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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: military. On the other hand, if I am wrong, then the strict : scheduling and lifestyle will be good. Only problem comes when you The problem here is the military goes to the EXTREME. : Actually I think Ned Kelly who posts here often will have a very : NEGATIVE opinion…but then ask Ned… I already emailed and posted with a pointer to my Web Page. That’s one reason I made the web page, so as not to pollute the newsgroup with my flames. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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I want to thank everyone who has responded to my questions. From what I’ve heard, I’m not sure Evan could function well in all of the areas that he would need to do so. We are at a cross-roads. Following years of struggle with school, etc we now are faced with easing him into adulthood and taking care of himself. We live in a low populated, country atmosphere and he has had the advantage of the open spaces to roam in. He is now with Skills, Inc. in conjunction with a Vocational Rehab. Program. His work performance was adequate for the first three months, but now he is becoming bored and restless. Time to move on, and we don’t know to what. Vocational rehab. will pay college expenses, but he is unable to cope and live on his own. The closest college is 80 miles away. Also, he can’t function in full time college courses. Thanks again for all your input. Regards, Linda Morris
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: I want to thank everyone who has responded to my questions. From what : I’ve heard, I’m not sure Evan could function well in all of the areas : that he would need to do so. We are at a cross-roads. Following years of You’re welcome. I’m always happy to help in this matter. That’s why I made the web page of mine, to serve as a warning of just how harsh the military can get. Since you’re out in the middle of nowhere (the "outback" as I’d say), this makes ADD an even bigger problem. I couldn’t handle the boredom of the suburbs, let alone in some small town in the middle of nowhere like Jordan Montana as the example. Too bad college is so hard on many of us. I’d like to get a job skill, but can’t. Once again, you’re welcome. — Ned Kelly Lives!!!!!! http://www.suburbia.net/~nedkelly/Seppo_Navy.html "That isn’t a knife…. This is a KNIFE!" – Paul Hogan The Navy: It’s Not Just A Job….. It’s $cientology Lite!
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, This is my first time to post anything and I hope someone may have a few answers. My son who just turned 17 has ADHD. He has gotten his GED and is working full time at a place that helps people of all ages who have disabilities. He can’t handle full time college and we have been discussing the possilities of the Navy. Can a person with his qualifications be accepted and how do ADHD persons adjust to military life? Thanks. Linda Linda, meet Ned. (He’ll be here shortly.) Check out Glenn Danforth’s Humor Factory at: *** http://www.cris.com/~nd1irish/index.htm *** 28 pages of humor and growing. (Like a malignant tumor!)
Ooooh…(LOL) Actually, the service is considered to be a pretty good choice for a lot of us–the "in your face" discipline of the service keeps us on our toes, at least for a while. I would, however, not choose the Navy–there’s a bar at the end of every pier, and a lot of ADD sailors never make it past it….
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