Question:
I agree: the loss of life (both American ~and~ Vietnamese) was as crime. However, in my opinion, if you want to prosecute anyone for that war you should go after our "leaders" who sacrificed so many men’s lives to their vanity. It’d be great if we could dig up Johnson and try him as a war criminal for prolonging a war so he wouldn’t look like a loser (as his taped conversations show). lou Lou, Whether you, I or anyone else forgives, Jane Fonda, or not of a legally defined crime is a matter for our individual consciences and not the point of my piece. I respectfully suggest you reread it. Further, I would like to introduce you to a few of my friends and acquaintances who are among the 58,000+ American men who lost their lives in Viet Nam and can not now speak for themselves. I’m sorry I can’t provide pictures of all of them. Emmett Ballree Emmett Bailree Record Details Jessie Johnson Jessie L. Johnson Record Details Billy Meador Billy J. Meador Record Details Neil Bateman Record Details Lonnie Butts Record Details Tim Guglielmoni Timothy Guglielmoni Record Details Brian Wallace Record Details Wilfredo Pumarejo Wilfredo (Freddy) Pumarejo Record Details Robert Walsh Record Details
Who knows? I do think forgiveness is a matter of spiritual importance.l
Response:
Who knows? I do think forgiveness is a matter of spiritual importance. l is Jane Fonda a matter of spiritual importance, enough to be placed on the Episc newsgroup And what of the 50,000+ Americans and 1,000,000+ Vietnamese who died to keep Vietnam "safe" from Communism? I think it’s time to heal instead of constantly bringing up the raging passions of the past. The war was stupid, pointless and insulting to all the people on both sides who died. As I understand it, Jane Fonda has expressed regret for her actions. The present-day Vietnamese are willing to forgive and forget: why can’t we? l
Response:
never comprehended enough to connect the dots, sounded to me like political ranting, better in some veterans or anti-commie or whatever ng Who knows? I do think forgiveness is a matter of spiritual importance. l is Jane Fonda a matter of spiritual importance, enough to be placed on the Episc newsgroup And what of the 50,000+ Americans and 1,000,000+ Vietnamese who died to keep Vietnam "safe" from Communism? I think it’s time to heal instead of constantly bringing up the raging passions of the past. The war was stupid, pointless and insulting to all the people on both sides who died. As I understand it, Jane Fonda has expressed regret for her actions. The present-day Vietnamese are willing to forgive and forget: why can’t we? l
Response:
is Jane Fonda a matter of spiritual importance, enough to be placed on the Episc newsgroup And what of the 50,000+ Americans and 1,000,000+ Vietnamese who died to keep Vietnam "safe" from Communism? I think it’s time to heal instead of constantly bringing up the raging passions of the past. The war was stupid, pointless and insulting to all the people on both sides who died. As I understand it, Jane Fonda has expressed regret for her actions. The present-day Vietnamese are willing to forgive and forget: why can’t we? l Lou, I never once said or implied you were a dead horse. When are you guys going to quit insulting us, our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, children and grandchilren? Mike When are you guy going to quit flogging this dead horse? If you read my words, please think, not of me, but of my mother. I’ve been pondering a question for over a year now and have finally decided to ask. When will the insults end? In 1999, 26 years after the end of American involvement in the war in Vietnam, the, "Ladies Home Journal," published their, "100 Most Important Women of the 20th Century." Among the honorees was, Jane Fonda. Now, many Americans know that Vietnam veterans don’t like, Jane Fonda, but, as far as I can tell, few have ever taken the time or trouble to find out why. If you are the parent or grandparent of a young man or young boy who may have to fight in the service of his country one day, you might just want to take that time and trouble now. You could start at: http://www.moorej.org/jane/ Now, some who know a little about, Jane Fonda, will say, "If what she did was so wrong, why wasn’t she prosecuted?" Though I can not prove, I believe, at least in part, she was not prosecuted for the same reason, Barabbas, was set free, while, Jesus Christ, was crucified . Pontius Pilate, was trying to maintain civil order. I would like to say, in defense of, Pontius Pilate, according to one account I’ve read, he ended his days as a Christian. Over the years, as American women bought, Jane Fonda, exercise tapes and attended her movies, it’s sometimes been like, someone, with a lot of pins, had made a voodoo doll of me. If you do decide to learn more about, Jane Fonda, you might want to go ahead and learn more about, Iva Toguri. She was a young woman who we actually did, try, convict and imprison for treason. You’ll just have to type a little more: http://www.dyarstraights.com/orphan_ann/orphanan.html On May 14th, 2000, a Korean veteran, David Hughes, wrote, "Who commanded men who, unlike many from Vietnam, didn’t complain, or protest, or massacre anyone except the overwhelming numbers of enemy flung at them. And they did not come home feeling sorry for themselves. Or try to rip off the VA with phony claims of ‘post traumatic stress syndrome’." Mr. Hughes, wrote this in a letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph." The letter was in response, at that time, to the story about the, alleged, massacre at, "No Gun Ri," during the Korean war. After sending his letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph," Mr. Hughes, released it to be forwarded around the internet via e-mail. That is how I came to have it. I’m not going to argue the points, Mr. Hughes, raises. It’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Vietnam experience. Suffice it to say, Mr. Hughes, could have made his case without mentioning Vietnam veterans at all. How many others are there who harbor the feelings and opinions expressed by, Mr. Hughes? It’s been 33 years since I came back from Vietnam and I still feel less comfortable in my own country than I did in Vietnam. When will it end? Michael Clancy Reply to a person in a secular news group: Steve, I wasn’t going to get involved in this and probably won’t again. As I stated in my original, posting, it’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Viet Nam experience. I am not likely to change your position, any more than you are likely to change mine, making debate rather pointless. First, let’s define terms. We have Italian Fascism, German Nazism and Communism. Now, Fascism and Nazism, are similar enough to be considered two sides of the same coin, so I will, hereafter, refer to them as Fascism. Now Communism just may be the perfect form of government if applied to a perfect species of intelligent beings. Unfortunately, for reasons we could debate until our last breath, the word, perfect, can hardly be applied to, homo sapiens. Soviet economic disarray and the increasing move toward Capitalism by Chinese people demonstrate, better than I ever could, that Communism, on a large scale, just does not work. The ultimate goal of both Fascism and Communism was world domination, differing only in the method of achieving it. Fascism gloried war and used naked military force, resulting in the loss of many lives, making it easy to recognize the necessity of stopping it. Communism encouraged and supported revolution from within, which also resulted in the loss of many lives, but could be viewed as a sovereign nation’s internal affair and no one else’s business. Had Fascism used the methods of Communism, would you, Steve, have protested the, Second World War, and now insult and malign the veterans, of that war, at every opportunity? World War II and Viet Nam were fought for exactly the same reason. It would seem that many, if not most, agree that cheer leading and strong student body support, is important to the success of a high school football team. Do you think, Steve, that there could be a possibility that the, Viet Nam War, might not have lasted any longer than the, Korean War, had the leaders of, North Viet Nam, not been encouraged to prosecute the war, longer than they might have ordinarily, by all their American cheer leaders and draft evaders? How many additional lives, on both sides, do you think that might have cost, Steve? Jane Fonda’s visit to, North Viet Nam, probably came to late in the war to have had much effect on the loss of life. However, Steve, do you think there might be a possibility that her visit might have given the, North Vietnamese, a stronger bargaining position, keeping us from maintaining troops in, South Viet Nam, to enforce the, peace agreement, as we have done these past 47 years in, South Korea? I’m not sure anymore, but I believe it was you, Steve, who quoted, Grace Slick, as having said, "War is good business, invest your sons! I’d rather my country died for me!" If the protesters and draft evaders continue to have their way, their country may, indeed, die for them. They may accomplish in less than three hundred years what it took a thousand in the case of the, Roman Empire. Many people feel that American troops lost the war in, Viet Nam. Richard Nixon won the presidency on his promise to get us out of, Viet Nam. American troops left, Viet Nam, in 73. Saigon, fell in 75. The people who lost the war, were the people who voted for, Richard Nixon. Mike
Response:
And what of the 50,000+ Americans and 1,000,000+ Vietnamese who died to keep Vietnam "safe" from Communism? I think it’s time to heal instead of constantly bringing up the raging passions of the past. The war was stupid, pointless and insulting to all the people on both sides who died. As I understand it, Jane Fonda has expressed regret for her actions. The present-day Vietnamese are willing to forgive and forget: why can’t we? l Lou, I never once said or implied you were a dead horse. When are you guys going to quit insulting us, our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, children and grandchilren? Mike
When are you guy going to quit flogging this dead horse? If you read my words, please think, not of me, but of my mother. I’ve been pondering a question for over a year now and have finally decided to ask. When will the insults end? In 1999, 26 years after the end of American involvement in the war in Vietnam, the, "Ladies Home Journal," published their, "100 Most Important Women of the 20th Century." Among the honorees was, Jane Fonda. Now, many Americans know that Vietnam veterans don’t like, Jane Fonda, but, as far as I can tell, few have ever taken the time or trouble to find out why. If you are the parent or grandparent of a young man or young boy who may have to fight in the service of his country one day, you might just want to take that time and trouble now. You could start at: http://www.moorej.org/jane/ Now, some who know a little about, Jane Fonda, will say, "If what she did was so wrong, why wasn’t she prosecuted?" Though I can not prove, I believe, at least in part, she was not prosecuted for the same reason, Barabbas, was set free, while, Jesus Christ, was crucified . Pontius Pilate, was trying to maintain civil order. I would like to say, in defense of, Pontius Pilate, according to one account I’ve read, he ended his days as a Christian. Over the years, as American women bought, Jane Fonda, exercise tapes and attended her movies, it’s sometimes been like, someone, with a lot of pins, had made a voodoo doll of me. If you do decide to learn more about, Jane Fonda, you might want to go ahead and learn more about, Iva Toguri. She was a young woman who we actually did, try, convict and imprison for treason. You’ll just have to type a little more: http://www.dyarstraights.com/orphan_ann/orphanan.html On May 14th, 2000, a Korean veteran, David Hughes, wrote, "Who commanded men who, unlike many from Vietnam, didn’t complain, or protest, or massacre anyone except the overwhelming numbers of enemy flung at them. And they did not come home feeling sorry for themselves. Or try to rip off the VA with phony claims of ‘post traumatic stress syndrome’." Mr. Hughes, wrote this in a letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph." The letter was in response, at that time, to the story about the, alleged, massacre at, "No Gun Ri," during the Korean war. After sending his letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph," Mr. Hughes, released it to be forwarded around the internet via e-mail. That is how I came to have it. I’m not going to argue the points, Mr. Hughes, raises. It’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Vietnam experience. Suffice it to say, Mr. Hughes, could have made his case without mentioning Vietnam veterans at all. How many others are there who harbor the feelings and opinions expressed by, Mr. Hughes? It’s been 33 years since I came back from Vietnam and I still feel less comfortable in my own country than I did in Vietnam. When will it end? Michael Clancy Reply to a person in a secular news group: Steve, I wasn’t going to get involved in this and probably won’t again. As I stated in my original, posting, it’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Viet Nam experience. I am not likely to change your position, any more than you are likely to change mine, making debate rather pointless. First, let’s define terms. We have Italian Fascism, German Nazism and Communism. Now, Fascism and Nazism, are similar enough to be considered two sides of the same coin, so I will, hereafter, refer to them as Fascism. Now Communism just may be the perfect form of government if applied to a perfect species of intelligent beings. Unfortunately, for reasons we could debate until our last breath, the word, perfect, can hardly be applied to, homo sapiens. Soviet economic disarray and the increasing move toward Capitalism by Chinese people demonstrate, better than I ever could, that Communism, on a large scale, just does not work. The ultimate goal of both Fascism and Communism was world domination, differing only in the method of achieving it. Fascism gloried war and used naked military force, resulting in the loss of many lives, making it easy to recognize the necessity of stopping it. Communism encouraged and supported revolution from within, which also resulted in the loss of many lives, but could be viewed as a sovereign nation’s internal affair and no one else’s business. Had Fascism used the methods of Communism, would you, Steve, have protested the, Second World War, and now insult and malign the veterans, of that war, at every opportunity? World War II and Viet Nam were fought for exactly the same reason. It would seem that many, if not most, agree that cheer leading and strong student body support, is important to the success of a high school football team. Do you think, Steve, that there could be a possibility that the, Viet Nam War, might not have lasted any longer than the, Korean War, had the leaders of, North Viet Nam, not been encouraged to prosecute the war, longer than they might have ordinarily, by all their American cheer leaders and draft evaders? How many additional lives, on both sides, do you think that might have cost, Steve? Jane Fonda’s visit to, North Viet Nam, probably came to late in the war to have had much effect on the loss of life. However, Steve, do you think there might be a possibility that her visit might have given the, North Vietnamese, a stronger bargaining position, keeping us from maintaining troops in, South Viet Nam, to enforce the, peace agreement, as we have done these past 47 years in, South Korea? I’m not sure anymore, but I believe it was you, Steve, who quoted, Grace Slick, as having said, "War is good business, invest your sons! I’d rather my country died for me!" If the protesters and draft evaders continue to have their way, their country may, indeed, die for them. They may accomplish in less than three hundred years what it took a thousand in the case of the, Roman Empire. Many people feel that American troops lost the war in, Viet Nam. Richard Nixon won the presidency on his promise to get us out of, Viet Nam. American troops left, Viet Nam, in 73. Saigon, fell in 75. The people who lost the war, were the people who voted for, Richard Nixon. Mike
Response:
Lou, I never once said or implied you were a dead horse. When are you guys going to quit insulting us, our mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers, wives, children and grandchilren? Mike – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – When are you guy going to quit flogging this dead horse? If you read my words, please think, not of me, but of my mother. I’ve been pondering a question for over a year now and have finally decided to ask. When will the insults end? In 1999, 26 years after the end of American involvement in the war in Vietnam, the, "Ladies Home Journal," published their, "100 Most Important Women of the 20th Century." Among the honorees was, Jane Fonda. Now, many Americans know that Vietnam veterans don’t like, Jane Fonda, but, as far as I can tell, few have ever taken the time or trouble to find out why. If you are the parent or grandparent of a young man or young boy who may have to fight in the service of his country one day, you might just want to take that time and trouble now. You could start at: http://www.moorej.org/jane/ Now, some who know a little about, Jane Fonda, will say, "If what she did was so wrong, why wasn’t she prosecuted?" Though I can not prove, I believe, at least in part, she was not prosecuted for the same reason, Barabbas, was set free, while, Jesus Christ, was crucified . Pontius Pilate, was trying to maintain civil order. I would like to say, in defense of, Pontius Pilate, according to one account I’ve read, he ended his days as a Christian. Over the years, as American women bought, Jane Fonda, exercise tapes and attended her movies, it’s sometimes been like, someone, with a lot of pins, had made a voodoo doll of me. If you do decide to learn more about, Jane Fonda, you might want to go ahead and learn more about, Iva Toguri. She was a young woman who we actually did, try, convict and imprison for treason. You’ll just have to type a little more: http://www.dyarstraights.com/orphan_ann/orphanan.html On May 14th, 2000, a Korean veteran, David Hughes, wrote, "Who commanded men who, unlike many from Vietnam, didn’t complain, or protest, or massacre anyone except the overwhelming numbers of enemy flung at them. And they did not come home feeling sorry for themselves. Or try to rip off the VA with phony claims of ‘post traumatic stress syndrome’." Mr. Hughes, wrote this in a letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph." The letter was in response, at that time, to the story about the, alleged, massacre at, "No Gun Ri," during the Korean war. After sending his letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph," Mr. Hughes, released it to be forwarded around the internet via e-mail. That is how I came to have it. I’m not going to argue the points, Mr. Hughes, raises. It’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Vietnam experience. Suffice it to say, Mr. Hughes, could have made his case without mentioning Vietnam veterans at all. How many others are there who harbor the feelings and opinions expressed by, Mr. Hughes? It’s been 33 years since I came back from Vietnam and I still feel less comfortable in my own country than I did in Vietnam. When will it end? Michael Clancy Reply to a person in a secular news group: Steve, I wasn’t going to get involved in this and probably won’t again. As I stated in my original, posting, it’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Viet Nam experience. I am not likely to change your position, any more than you are likely to change mine, making debate rather pointless. First, let’s define terms. We have Italian Fascism, German Nazism and Communism. Now, Fascism and Nazism, are similar enough to be considered two sides of the same coin, so I will, hereafter, refer to them as Fascism. Now Communism just may be the perfect form of government if applied to a perfect species of intelligent beings. Unfortunately, for reasons we could debate until our last breath, the word, perfect, can hardly be applied to, homo sapiens. Soviet economic disarray and the increasing move toward Capitalism by Chinese people demonstrate, better than I ever could, that Communism, on a large scale, just does not work. The ultimate goal of both Fascism and Communism was world domination, differing only in the method of achieving it. Fascism gloried war and used naked military force, resulting in the loss of many lives, making it easy to recognize the necessity of stopping it. Communism encouraged and supported revolution from within, which also resulted in the loss of many lives, but could be viewed as a sovereign nation’s internal affair and no one else’s business. Had Fascism used the methods of Communism, would you, Steve, have protested the, Second World War, and now insult and malign the veterans, of that war, at every opportunity? World War II and Viet Nam were fought for exactly the same reason. It would seem that many, if not most, agree that cheer leading and strong student body support, is important to the success of a high school football team. Do you think, Steve, that there could be a possibility that the, Viet Nam War, might not have lasted any longer than the, Korean War, had the leaders of, North Viet Nam, not been encouraged to prosecute the war, longer than they might have ordinarily, by all their American cheer leaders and draft evaders? How many additional lives, on both sides, do you think that might have cost, Steve? Jane Fonda’s visit to, North Viet Nam, probably came to late in the war to have had much effect on the loss of life. However, Steve, do you think there might be a possibility that her visit might have given the, North Vietnamese, a stronger bargaining position, keeping us from maintaining troops in, South Viet Nam, to enforce the, peace agreement, as we have done these past 47 years in, South Korea? I’m not sure anymore, but I believe it was you, Steve, who quoted, Grace Slick, as having said, "War is good business, invest your sons! I’d rather my country died for me!" If the protesters and draft evaders continue to have their way, their country may, indeed, die for them. They may accomplish in less than three hundred years what it took a thousand in the case of the, Roman Empire. Many people feel that American troops lost the war in, Viet Nam. Richard Nixon won the presidency on his promise to get us out of, Viet Nam. American troops left, Viet Nam, in 73. Saigon, fell in 75. The people who lost the war, were the people who voted for, Richard Nixon. Mike
Response:
When are you guy going to quit flogging this dead horse? If you read my words, please think, not of me, but of my mother. I’ve been pondering a question for over a year now and have finally decided to ask. When will the insults end? In 1999, 26 years after the end of American involvement in the war in Vietnam, the, "Ladies Home Journal," published their, "100 Most Important Women of the 20th Century." Among the honorees was, Jane Fonda. Now, many Americans know that Vietnam veterans don’t like, Jane Fonda, but, as far as I can tell, few have ever taken the time or trouble to find out why. If you are the parent or grandparent of a young man or young boy who may have to fight in the service of his country one day, you might just want to take that time and trouble now. You could start at: http://www.moorej.org/jane/ Now, some who know a little about, Jane Fonda, will say, "If what she did was so wrong, why wasn’t she prosecuted?" Though I can not prove, I believe, at least in part, she was not prosecuted for the same reason, Barabbas, was set free, while, Jesus Christ, was crucified . Pontius Pilate, was trying to maintain civil order. I would like to say, in defense of, Pontius Pilate, according to one account I’ve read, he ended his days as a Christian. Over the years, as American women bought, Jane Fonda, exercise tapes and attended her movies, it’s sometimes been like, someone, with a lot of pins, had made a voodoo doll of me. If you do decide to learn more about, Jane Fonda, you might want to go ahead and learn more about, Iva Toguri. She was a young woman who we actually did, try, convict and imprison for treason. You’ll just have to type a little more: http://www.dyarstraights.com/orphan_ann/orphanan.html On May 14th, 2000, a Korean veteran, David Hughes, wrote, "Who commanded men who, unlike many from Vietnam, didn’t complain, or protest, or massacre anyone except the overwhelming numbers of enemy flung at them. And they did not come home feeling sorry for themselves. Or try to rip off the VA with phony claims of ‘post traumatic stress syndrome’." Mr. Hughes, wrote this in a letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph." The letter was in response, at that time, to the story about the, alleged, massacre at, "No Gun Ri," during the Korean war. After sending his letter to the editor of the, "Colorado Springs Gazette Telegraph," Mr. Hughes, released it to be forwarded around the internet via e-mail. That is how I came to have it. I’m not going to argue the points, Mr. Hughes, raises. It’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Vietnam experience. Suffice it to say, Mr. Hughes, could have made his case without mentioning Vietnam veterans at all. How many others are there who harbor the feelings and opinions expressed by, Mr. Hughes? It’s been 33 years since I came back from Vietnam and I still feel less comfortable in my own country than I did in Vietnam. When will it end? Michael Clancy Reply to a person in a secular news group: Steve, I wasn’t going to get involved in this and probably won’t again. As I stated in my original, posting, it’s not my job to educate you on the complexities of the entire Viet Nam experience. I am not likely to change your position, any more than you are likely to change mine, making debate rather pointless. First, let’s define terms. We have Italian Fascism, German Nazism and Communism. Now, Fascism and Nazism, are similar enough to be considered two sides of the same coin, so I will, hereafter, refer to them as Fascism. Now Communism just may be the perfect form of government if applied to a perfect species of intelligent beings. Unfortunately, for reasons we could debate until our last breath, the word, perfect, can hardly be applied to, homo sapiens. Soviet economic disarray and the increasing move toward Capitalism by Chinese people demonstrate, better than I ever could, that Communism, on a large scale, just does not work. The ultimate goal of both Fascism and Communism was world domination, differing only in the method of achieving it. Fascism gloried war and used naked military force, resulting in the loss of many lives, making it easy to recognize the necessity of stopping it. Communism encouraged and supported revolution from within, which also resulted in the loss of many lives, but could be viewed as a sovereign nation’s internal affair and no one else’s business. Had Fascism used the methods of Communism, would you, Steve, have protested the, Second World War, and now insult and malign the veterans, of that war, at every opportunity? World War II and Viet Nam were fought for exactly the same reason. It would seem that many, if not most, agree that cheer leading and strong student body support, is important to the success of a high school football team. Do you think, Steve, that there could be a possibility that the, Viet Nam War, might not have lasted any longer than the, Korean War, had the leaders of, North Viet Nam, not been encouraged to prosecute the war, longer than they might have ordinarily, by all their American cheer leaders and draft evaders? How many additional lives, on both sides, do you think that might have cost, Steve? Jane Fonda’s visit to, North Viet Nam, probably came to late in the war to have had much effect on the loss of life. However, Steve, do you think there might be a possibility that her visit might have given the, North Vietnamese, a stronger bargaining position, keeping us from maintaining troops in, South Viet Nam, to enforce the, peace agreement, as we have done these past 47 years in, South Korea? I’m not sure anymore, but I believe it was you, Steve, who quoted, Grace Slick, as having said, "War is good business, invest your sons! I’d rather my country died for me!" If the protesters and draft evaders continue to have their way, their country may, indeed, die for them. They may accomplish in less than three hundred years what it took a thousand in the case of the, Roman Empire. Many people feel that American troops lost the war in, Viet Nam. Richard Nixon won the presidency on his promise to get us out of, Viet Nam. American troops left, Viet Nam, in 73. Saigon, fell in 75. The people who lost the war, were the people who voted for, Richard Nixon. Mike
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