Question:
hi again, Just wanted to be sure everyone was clear on this 
I’m not a psychiatrist and by no means do I believe I have the knowledge or credentials to offer up advice. I am reading the books that were suggested to me by a therapist while I was in hospital. Perhaps they will be helpful, perhaps not. And no, I’m not upset or anything…I just wanted to be sure everyone knew that I’m not doling out therapy here… 
And most likely, if a person isn’t ready to deal with issues from the past they should let sleeping dogs lie. I would imagine that dealing with extremely traumatic, past, issues is something one should do only under the care and direction of a therapist. faeriewings "Stefan J Milenkovic" <scor…@dnai.com> wrote in message news:B67618BB.1F76%scorpio@dnai.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> I hate to be the voice of dissent, I really hope that the Bradshaw books are > great for everyone except me. But I have learned over the years that the > last thing I need to do is to go and dredge something from my past to worry > about, I have all sorts of issues in the present to deal with!!!!
Response:
Years ago I ran across Bradshaw’s Homecoming show on Public TV, and sat there alone in my living room doing the imagery thing, imagining myself as a little girl and telling my mother, who hurt me mainly through invalidation, goodbye, and going into my adult arms for loving care that would never abandon me. I sort of snapped, and it depressed me very much. It triggered my abandonment issues BIG TIME. It *would* have been better for me to be doing that kind of work along with a therapists help, so that I wouldn’t get shattered and not know where to go from there. It’s easier and much more effective for me to do that kind of work now that I have gotten stronger and have done more possitive work toward gaining a strong sense of identity or self. I don’t feel alone in outer space, floating in despair, when doing past work now. Anyway, my 2 and 1/2 cents. –Tez On 1 Jan 2001 21:33:53 -0600, kajira hill <b…@antisocial.com> wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Yeah, I believe Bradshaw even says this in his "Homecoming" book — >not to embark upon it without tutelage of a therapist. (It could be >another of his books, but it *is* in one of ‘em. It’s been years >since I’ve been following him, so I don’t recall in which order they >were published.) I do have his "Homecoming" TV series on tape, and >while it’s true there were times it made me cry and cry — I don’t >think that’s necessarily a bad thing. >And anyone who gives me a (consensual) hug is a good person in my >book! I’ve had nothing but good experiences with and/or about John >Bradshaw in my lifetime. Talk about a shining star in a dark and >stormy night! But my therapy with him was while I was in Reno, and >I’ve not been there since 1991 (timing — all my crap started in the >end of ‘91, after I left Reno!) >Someone spoke of his mentioning Alice Walker (oh ghod… or Alice >Miller. Alice someone!). Whichever it is, he has always spoken >highly of her (just that it meant little to me, I guess, so I’ve >forgotten her name!) >="Stefan J Milenkovic" <scor…@dnai.com> wrote in message >=news:B67618BB.1F76%scorpio@dnai.com… >=> I hate to be the voice of dissent, I really hope that the Bradshaw books >=are >=> great for everyone except me. But I have learned over the years that the >=> last thing I need to do is to go and dredge something from my past to >=worry >=> about, I have all sorts of issues in the present to deal with!!!! >=> >=
Response:
Dawn Black <ddbl…@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:3A4AD747.CA36287D@magma.ca… > A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma and > PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the two > occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not have > PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline.
Hi Dawn, I think there is a problem of definition with the word ‘trauma’. I was never ‘traumatized’ as a child, I know- no sexual or physical abuse, my parents married and never fought (aside from their predictable bickering…). Slowly, I began to realize the emotional suffering I *had* endured all those years for various reasons. Whether trauma is the right word or not, it certainly was gradual, emotional injury, if only to a moderate degree. But the end result was being ill-prepared for adulthood, aye, for life itself, for me. It is the nature of a child to repress any undesirable feelings from awareness as a means to survive, I believe. The more I became aware of my true emotional history and how I am affected today, the more things began improving for me, including several physical symptoms for which doctors could give no explanation. Just thought I’d offer my friendly input. regards, Zigler
Response:
hi Zigler and all, I’m currently reading "Homecoming, Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner Child"…Don’t know what anyone could find "negative" about his books or philosophy other than the fact that he believes one needs to bring old pain to the fore in order for it to be healed. I’m certainly no expert but I do know that I have stuff that has lain dormant and festered for far too long and I want to get it out of my system for good. Is this possible? Don’t know, but I am willing to try…:) I’ve found it to be painful along the way, but the pain is cleansing somehow… faeriewings "Zigler" <re…@group.please> wrote in message
news:L8J36.1134$CE.131164@news.uswest.net… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> faeriewings <faeriewi…@nospam.ameritech.net> wrote in message > news:L0J26.42620$4Z5.966004@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net… > > hi, > > I’m new here and sticking my nose in…:p > > First off PLEASE don’t get offended. I am only offering up an opinion > here > > and am aware that it is just that! > > Hehe I’m reading a book *wince* but i swear it is helping me. > > It’s by John Bradshaw…ever heard of him > Hi. > I’m curious which title you are reading. Somehow in my > mind I’ve had something negative associated with John > Bradshaw from many years back. Recently I happened > upon some of his books and browsed briefly. In those > moments I decided I would like to have a closer look > into his writing one day (after I finish a few others in line…). > Feel free to comment a bit on the book you’re reading. > thanks, > Zigler
Response:
faeriewings <faeriewi…@nospam.ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:rVL36.44147$4Z5.1226890@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net… > hi Zigler and all, > I’m currently reading "Homecoming, Reclaiming and Championing Your Inner > Child"…Don’t know what anyone could find "negative" about his books or > philosophy other than the fact that he believes one needs to bring old pain > to the fore in order for it to be healed
By negative I’m referring to a ‘gut’ feeling or vague association from some earlier time. *Sometimes* we form these in error, or base them on information which denies some awareness of reality… When browsing through a new book I usually start with the bibliography, index, etc. to find any familiar references. What caught my attention was a reference in one of Bradshaw’s bibliographies to a book by Alice Miller, whose books and philosophy have been rather helpful for me (the Drama of the Gifted Child). I plan to have a closer look at his stuff, including the one you mentioned. regards, Zigler
Response:
I hate to be the voice of dissent, I really hope that the Bradshaw books are great for everyone except me. But I have learned over the years that the last thing I need to do is to go and dredge something from my past to worry about, I have all sorts of issues in the present to deal with!!!!
Response:
In article <B67618BB.1F76%scor…@dnai.com>, Stefan J Milenkovic <scor…@dnai.com> wrote: > I hate to be the voice of dissent, I really hope that the Bradshaw > books are great for everyone except me. But I have learned over the > years that the last thing I need to do is to go and dredge something > from my past to worry about, I have all sorts of issues in the present > to deal with!!!!
What I find is that some knowledge of the past is helpful, because it can put the present into a more understandable context. However I see no point in dwelling on it – we can change, but we have to do it in the present. Regards Angelo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Response:
Dawn Black <ddbl…@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:3A4AD747.CA36287D@magma.ca… > A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma and > PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the two > occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not have > PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline. > Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have > suffered trauma, and those who have not.
<snip> Hi Dawn In my country ‘England’ I have read a book on this very subject.I can’t remember the name of the book,but it mentioned something like this. " borderlines can be split into 2 groups.One group has a biological tendency for personality disorders.While the other group have been created that way by trauma and influence by others while developing etc." I actually believe genetics plays a large part in this illness.I believe my Mother is a borderline.Her actions towards me made my condition worse,but I reckon I would have had it anyway without her influence.What affects me most at the moment are the ‘Flash backs’ to her abuse on me.Even thinking of my mother is making me feel bad now. I believe borderlines are pretty much the same from what I have read here.I just Think some of us suffer from post traumatic stress disorder too. PS:….I hope you don’t leave the group Dawn.I like to read what everyone in the group says.Although I don’t join in all the time.You have as much right to your opinion as anyone.
Response:
faeriewings <faeriewi…@nospam.ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:L0J26.42620$4Z5.966004@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net… > hi, > I’m new here and sticking my nose in…:p > First off PLEASE don’t get offended. I am only offering up an opinion here > and am aware that it is just that! > Hehe I’m reading a book *wince* but i swear it is helping me. > It’s by John Bradshaw…ever heard of him
Hi. I’m curious which title you are reading. Somehow in my mind I’ve had something negative associated with John Bradshaw from many years back. Recently I happened upon some of his books and browsed briefly. In those moments I decided I would like to have a closer look into his writing one day (after I finish a few others in line…). Feel free to comment a bit on the book you’re reading. thanks, Zigler
Response:
Let me start by saying, that I don’t mean to offend. When i was talking about the two being related, it was from my general reading. I don’t understand the connection, but what I think is unfair is to say that the two are EQUAL. That BPD is PTSD. I don’t know if you would agree, but I would assume that the experience of having one is different than having both. I think that they are completey different in their origin.. meaning PTSD is sort of connected to Anxiety disorders and BPD more closely to mood disorders. <sigh> I did not mean to offend you.. i truly didn’t. the point was, that the PTSD and BPD aren’t the same. Trauma doesn’t mean you will develop BPD and the lack of trauma doesn’t mean you can’t have BPD. When approaching the question of what the hell this is, well you can’t leave this factor out. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -kajira hill wrote: > On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 06:11:20 GMT, Dawn Black allegedly scribst: > =A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma and > =PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the two > =occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not have > =PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline. > = > =Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have > =suffered trauma, and those who have not. > = > =Perhaps trauma as a child makes mental disorders WORSE, or knocks them > =into gear. (Since it seems people with trauma have much more severe > =problems than me). > = > =But, I have BPD.. and, an even more interesting fact, so does my first > =cousin. > = > =Therefore, and perhaps i am just self-interested, i think that we should > =not learn to equate bpd, or even depression and anxiety, with trauma. > =This is unfair to people who suffer these conditions without that > =history. > = > =i mainly make the point because during my deep major depression as i was > =struggling with suicidal impulses this summer someone said the following > =to me: "You shouldn’t be this messed up, you don’t have that many > =problems." > = > =My pain is as real as anyone elses. Yet, sometimes it gets invalidated. > = > =Wurtzel’s book (Prozac Nation) blames depression on dysfunctional > =childhoods and families who have suffered from divorce. This is not my > =demographic, or in fact, that of many people i know who have been or are > =depressed. > = > =I’m not going to blame my parents, they tried the best they could. Other > =people can look to their parents and find tonnes of reasons for their > =illness, but i can’t. But, looking at the families my parents came from > =– there is definately some genetics at play. > = > =Sorry if this has offended someone, or even lacks any clear argument or > =point. > = > =best of luck in the new year, > =Dawn > Dawn – > To tell you the truth, I never saw the two equated until I mentioned > that I suddenly got the dual dx a few months back. I then began > mentioning it in most of my posts, to include a book I’d bought about > the two diagnoses in treatment. I *have* to equate the two together, > as I *have* the two together. I’m sorry if that offends you, but it’s > true. > I was diagnosed BPD in the early 1970s. I did not get a PTSD > diagnosis, nor would I likely agree very quickly to that diagnosis, > until a couple months ago. Although my childhood was not a bed of > roses — there were a few things that are questionable, and I don’t > think of the PTSD as a result of any childhood trauma. I could learn > down the line that that is incorrect, but that’s how I feel about it. > I have been left homeless (ON THE STREET, literally) twice in the past > ten years. I have lost everything I ever owned in my entire life (ya > know, like even the schmaltzy stuff one carries along: prom pictures, > high school year books, and even the big stuff: my car, my furniture, > my clothes, my books. Photo albums that chronicled my wild and crazy > years. Family momentos passed through generations until I ended up > losing them. Curio cabinet filled with expensive collections of > things I cherished. Jewelry. Everything. I lost this in 1995 — > which was when I began to fall apart. I have been promised to (and I > believe promises, something I might learn not to do, but I don’t > intend to get into any situation where promises apply ever again) and > those promises broken without a thought over and over. I suicided > once to completion (I was beat upon and "CLEAR!"’d on a few times to > get me back) once and strangely another time. I’ve beaten on things > glass all around me, to include shards’a'flying and me being streaked > with blood afterward — only to have the police pound on my door > because my damn sister called them to check on me (we don’t even live > in the same city). My husband cheated on me and lied about it even in > marriage counseling (even though he’d come home with hickeys and I’d > find strange new men’s underwear that *I* never bought him in the > laundry). I’ve had some horrible physical abuse things happen to me > (previous to the same abuser leaving me homeless) that are so bad I > can’t tell about them (haven’t even told the therp). All this and > probably more in the past 10 years. THAT’S where my PTSD comes from. > NOT my childhood. > I was a fully functioning person who happened to have a diagnosis of > BPD before all that shit happened. So forgive me for equating the two > and finally having a way to figure out why I fell completely apart > when I did, and forgive me for reacting like a person with PTSD and > being a person with PTSD. I am a person with BPD and PTSD. If you > want me outta here, I’ll go. Frankly, I’ve found it much easier to > post here than in the PTSD group, as they don’t understand BPD > behavior. But hell, I’ll go. No doubt in my mind. > Sorry oh so sorry I offended YOU.
Response:
I relate to what you are saying, and have some comments but no time at the moment..aaargh! I will have to wait, but wanted to let you know that I read this and totally relate. Until I have more time and am not headed out the door– –Tez – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Thu, 28 Dec 2000 06:11:20 GMT, Dawn Black <ddbl…@magma.ca> wrote: >A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma and >PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the two >occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not have >PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline. >Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have >suffered trauma, and those who have not. >Perhaps trauma as a child makes mental disorders WORSE, or knocks them >into gear. (Since it seems people with trauma have much more severe >problems than me). >But, I have BPD.. and, an even more interesting fact, so does my first >cousin. >Therefore, and perhaps i am just self-interested, i think that we should >not learn to equate bpd, or even depression and anxiety, with trauma. >This is unfair to people who suffer these conditions without that >history. >i mainly make the point because during my deep major depression as i was >struggling with suicidal impulses this summer someone said the following >to me: "You shouldn’t be this messed up, you don’t have that many >problems." >My pain is as real as anyone elses. Yet, sometimes it gets invalidated. >Wurtzel’s book (Prozac Nation) blames depression on dysfunctional >childhoods and families who have suffered from divorce. This is not my >demographic, or in fact, that of many people i know who have been or are >depressed. >I’m not going to blame my parents, they tried the best they could. Other >people can look to their parents and find tonnes of reasons for their >illness, but i can’t. But, looking at the families my parents came from >– there is definately some genetics at play. >Sorry if this has offended someone, or even lacks any clear argument or >point. >best of luck in the new year, >Dawn
Response:
"Dawn Black" <ddbl…@magma.ca> wrote in message
news:3A4AD747.CA36287D@magma.ca… > A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma and > PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the two > occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not have > PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline.
I don’t think that it’s a "silent" assumption that BPD and trauma occur together. Studies show that BPD is most likely caused by a combination of nature and nurtue. Studies show that 75% of people with BPD have been sexually abused in some way (and that’s only *one* form of abuse). Studies also show that lesser forms of abuse such as neglect or rigid tight marital bonds which exclude adequate protection and support for the child can cause BPD. Studies show that histories of abuse seem to distinguish borderline individuals from other outpatient diagnostic groups. More recently, the role of major traumatic events in childhood and adolescence has been recognized as contributing to BPD. Four out of five patients with BPD have a clear history of strikingly traumatic events. I don’t think it unfair in any way to associate BPD with trauma, especially for those on the list who *have* had trauma occur in their lives. I, like you, have never been diagnosed with PTSD … and I doubt I have it after reading the material about it. But I did suffer trauma as a child, and now I have BPD. > Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have > suffered trauma, and those who have not.
I don’t think there’s any need to break the BP’s into two groups. Whether or not you suffered trauma is not the point of the group. Whether or not you have a personality disorder *is* the point of the group, and if you didn’t suffer trauma, then don’t talk about it. Yes, it surprises me when I see a person with BPD and hear them say they experienced no trauma, as my opinion is that *some* sort of trauma had to occur for the disorder to manifest itself – whether it be sexual, physical, or emotional (neglect, unsupportive parents … whatever). > Therefore, and perhaps i am just self-interested, i think that we should > not learn to equate bpd, or even depression and anxiety, with trauma. > This is unfair to people who suffer these conditions without that > history.
I think perhaps you are being self-interested. I think that asking people who have BPD and did suffer from trauma to not associate the two is like asking them to not talk about it. And I don’t think that’s fair at all. > i mainly make the point because during my deep major depression as i was > struggling with suicidal impulses this summer someone said the following > to me: "You shouldn’t be this messed up, you don’t have that many > problems." > My pain is as real as anyone elses. Yet, sometimes it gets invalidated.
All of us here have to deal with having our pain invalidated at times. All the best, BPD`Star
Response:
hi, I’m new here and sticking my nose in…:p First off PLEASE don’t get offended. I am only offering up an opinion here and am aware that it is just that! Hehe I’m reading a book *wince* but i swear it is helping me. It’s by John Bradshaw…ever heard of him? In this book he talks about the "many" faces and degrees of trauma in the 3 developmental stages of childhood…I’m thinking that maybe just because trauma isn’t DEVESTATING or even intentionally administered, it is STILL trauma…For instance…I was born prematurely…I suffered from chronic colic…I cried and screamed for 8 hrs. straight, daily. You wouldn’t really call that trauma…i.e. being abandoned, beaten, molested…etc. But I believe it was a factor in my subsequent suffering from BPD and BP. Perhaps PTSD is more prevelant than we imagine…perhaps many of us are not aware of minor things that had BIG impact…I also believe that one can be "genetically primed" for some of these disorders. Dunno’ this is just a theory I have…cause I have struggled with this very same thought….My parents were GREAT parents and still are…I was a little spoiled even and have often hated myself, because i think "Look what a great start I was given…how can I be such a whining, pathetic, loser?" All I am saying is perhaps your mother set you on Santas lap and scared the shit out of you and it triggered a set of circumstances to set you up for BPD…hehehe or maybe I’m just a looney, darling. hugs-n-kisses faeriewings "Angelo" <angelo_ma…@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:92epc0$oio$1@nnrp1.deja.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> In article <3A4AD747.CA362…@magma.ca>, > Dawn Black <ddbl…@magma.ca> wrote: > > A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma > > and PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the > > two occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not > > have PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline. > > Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have > > suffered trauma, and those who have not. > _o/ (hand in air) me too I’m borderline with no trauma. It is odd isn’t > it – since aiui the lack of a specific trauma is one of the indicators > for BPD. Borderline with trauma would seem to be a contradiction in > terms. I’m not sure how the whole multiple dx thing works, but would be > interested to hear about it from folks who do. > > Perhaps trauma as a child makes mental disorders WORSE, or knocks them > > into gear. (Since it seems people with trauma have much more severe > > problems than me). > > But, I have BPD.. and, an even more interesting fact, so does my first > > cousin. > I have read that it can run in families. I think maybe my mother had it, > but then she had trauma so who knows. Afters years on therapy and meds > she’s relatively stable and happy these days. > > Therefore, and perhaps i am just self-interested, i think that we > > should not learn to equate bpd, or even depression and anxiety, with > > trauma. This is unfair to people who suffer these conditions without > > that history. > yep. Equally we need to acknowledge the effect of trauma – but I’m sure > that that is what you meant > > i mainly make the point because during my deep major depression as i > > was struggling with suicidal impulses this summer someone said the > > following to me: "You shouldn’t be this messed up, you don’t have that > > many problems." > Ah I HATE that. I get that too! Actually I am a lucky guy in many ways – > but an abundance of creativity doesn’t stop me getting depressed or > pushing people away or hurting the ones I love, or feeling that I am a > worthless shit. In fact the depression etc seems to be a package deal > with the creativity (this is supported by one or two medical studies, > but hasn’t been looked into in a comprehensive way). > > My pain is as real as anyone elses. Yet, sometimes it gets > > invalidated. > Quite right. Pain is pain. And if there is anything worse than > depression, then I guess it’s BPD. > I think what happens is that people don’t deal well with us being in > pain. Ever noticed how you’ll tell someone you’re in pain (physical, > mental, emotional whatever) and the first thing they say starts "have > you tired….." Fill in any number of quack rememdies, therpists and > books. It’s their discomfort at your pain that they are trying to deal > with. I find this with probably 19 out of 20 people. > > Wurtzel’s book (Prozac Nation) blames depression on dysfunctional > > childhoods and families who have suffered from divorce. This is not my > > demographic, or in fact, that of many people i know who have been or > > are depressed. > The causes of depression of many – but people want simple answers. > Because with simple answers, come simple solutions. Unfortunately the > universe is invariably more complex than we could ever imagine. A simple > answer sells a lot of books though huh? > > I’m not going to blame my parents, they tried the best they could. > > Other people can look to their parents and find tonnes of reasons for > > their illness, but i can’t. But, looking at the families my parents > > came from — there is definately some genetics at play. > well from what I’ve read again there are a lot of factors, including > genetic and environmental (ie parents). My mother caused me pain in my > infancy, but she didn’t do it on purpose. We have a good friendship now > and I can see that neither she nor I are the same person that we were > 30+ years ago when the difficulties began. Blame doesn’t actually > achieve anything anyway – except it allows us to temporarily not accept > responsibility for our actions. > I reckon there’s no reason for having BPD – it’s entirely unreasonable > that we should have it. Makes no fucking sense what so ever! > The important thing is where do we go from here. It helps to know where > we’ve come from, but is less important than deciding where we want to > be, and how we are going to get there. > > Sorry if this has offended someone, or even lacks any clear argument > > or point. > Nah it was good! Gave me a chance for another rave Nod to the > traumatised amonst us though bpd/pstd must be a nasty combination. > BTW I hope that shoulder pain clears up OK – us computer jockies have to > be careful. Everyone I know in the computer industry either has RSI, is > recovering from it, or has it under control. It’s not a matter of "if" > it seems, but when. > Regards > Angelo > Sent via Deja.com > http://www.deja.com/
Response:
In article <3A4AD747.CA362…@magma.ca>, Dawn Black <ddbl…@magma.ca> wrote: > A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma > and PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the > two occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not > have PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline. > Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have > suffered trauma, and those who have not.
_o/ (hand in air) me too I’m borderline with no trauma. It is odd isn’t it – since aiui the lack of a specific trauma is one of the indicators for BPD. Borderline with trauma would seem to be a contradiction in terms. I’m not sure how the whole multiple dx thing works, but would be interested to hear about it from folks who do. > Perhaps trauma as a child makes mental disorders WORSE, or knocks them > into gear. (Since it seems people with trauma have much more severe > problems than me). > But, I have BPD.. and, an even more interesting fact, so does my first > cousin.
I have read that it can run in families. I think maybe my mother had it, but then she had trauma so who knows. Afters years on therapy and meds she’s relatively stable and happy these days. > Therefore, and perhaps i am just self-interested, i think that we > should not learn to equate bpd, or even depression and anxiety, with > trauma. This is unfair to people who suffer these conditions without > that history.
yep. Equally we need to acknowledge the effect of trauma – but I’m sure that that is what you meant > i mainly make the point because during my deep major depression as i > was struggling with suicidal impulses this summer someone said the > following to me: "You shouldn’t be this messed up, you don’t have that > many problems."
Ah I HATE that. I get that too! Actually I am a lucky guy in many ways – but an abundance of creativity doesn’t stop me getting depressed or pushing people away or hurting the ones I love, or feeling that I am a worthless shit. In fact the depression etc seems to be a package deal with the creativity (this is supported by one or two medical studies, but hasn’t been looked into in a comprehensive way). > My pain is as real as anyone elses. Yet, sometimes it gets > invalidated.
Quite right. Pain is pain. And if there is anything worse than depression, then I guess it’s BPD. I think what happens is that people don’t deal well with us being in pain. Ever noticed how you’ll tell someone you’re in pain (physical, mental, emotional whatever) and the first thing they say starts "have you tired….." Fill in any number of quack rememdies, therpists and books. It’s their discomfort at your pain that they are trying to deal with. I find this with probably 19 out of 20 people. > Wurtzel’s book (Prozac Nation) blames depression on dysfunctional > childhoods and families who have suffered from divorce. This is not my > demographic, or in fact, that of many people i know who have been or > are depressed.
The causes of depression of many – but people want simple answers. Because with simple answers, come simple solutions. Unfortunately the universe is invariably more complex than we could ever imagine. A simple answer sells a lot of books though huh? > I’m not going to blame my parents, they tried the best they could. > Other people can look to their parents and find tonnes of reasons for > their illness, but i can’t. But, looking at the families my parents > came from — there is definately some genetics at play.
well from what I’ve read again there are a lot of factors, including genetic and environmental (ie parents). My mother caused me pain in my infancy, but she didn’t do it on purpose. We have a good friendship now and I can see that neither she nor I are the same person that we were 30+ years ago when the difficulties began. Blame doesn’t actually achieve anything anyway – except it allows us to temporarily not accept responsibility for our actions. I reckon there’s no reason for having BPD – it’s entirely unreasonable that we should have it. Makes no fucking sense what so ever! The important thing is where do we go from here. It helps to know where we’ve come from, but is less important than deciding where we want to be, and how we are going to get there. > Sorry if this has offended someone, or even lacks any clear argument > or point.
Nah it was good! Gave me a chance for another rave Nod to the traumatised amonst us though bpd/pstd must be a nasty combination. BTW I hope that shoulder pain clears up OK – us computer jockies have to be careful. Everyone I know in the computer industry either has RSI, is recovering from it, or has it under control. It’s not a matter of "if" it seems, but when. Regards Angelo Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Response:
A lot of what I have read in this NG has associated BPD with trauma and PTSD. There, i think to some degress, a silent assumption that the two occur together. However, I have not suffered from trauma, do not have PTSD.. and yet am still Borderline. Perhaps we could break borderlines into two groups: those who have suffered trauma, and those who have not. Perhaps trauma as a child makes mental disorders WORSE, or knocks them into gear. (Since it seems people with trauma have much more severe problems than me). But, I have BPD.. and, an even more interesting fact, so does my first cousin. Therefore, and perhaps i am just self-interested, i think that we should not learn to equate bpd, or even depression and anxiety, with trauma. This is unfair to people who suffer these conditions without that history. i mainly make the point because during my deep major depression as i was struggling with suicidal impulses this summer someone said the following to me: "You shouldn’t be this messed up, you don’t have that many problems." My pain is as real as anyone elses. Yet, sometimes it gets invalidated. Wurtzel’s book (Prozac Nation) blames depression on dysfunctional childhoods and families who have suffered from divorce. This is not my demographic, or in fact, that of many people i know who have been or are depressed. I’m not going to blame my parents, they tried the best they could. Other people can look to their parents and find tonnes of reasons for their illness, but i can’t. But, looking at the families my parents came from — there is definately some genetics at play. Sorry if this has offended someone, or even lacks any clear argument or point. best of luck in the new year, Dawn
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