Trauma – PTSD

Question:

For one, I have not addressed suicide in a complete manner as in how I feel about it. In fact I only addressed the action of their last post. I still hold the conviction that it was wrong for them to post a message to be used as a emotional stirring stick. When I was 16 my mother (abuser) pulled me to the side and informed me of the fact she had purchased a 38 revolver and was going to first kill my stepfather (abuser). After this act she would in turn put the gun in her mouth and end her life, but everything was ok because she had made sure that the insurance and everything was setup so I would not have anything to worry about. Nothing that anyone said or could do would change what she had preordained. This was a fact that I was just going to have to accept and or get over. As chance would have it, the police in my city had called the house to inform her that her background check had gone through and she could pick up the fire arm at her earliest convenience. The cop asked to speak with my mother after introducing himself. I told him that she was not there and asked what the call was about. He in turn asked my relation to her, when he found out I was in fact her son he told me about the background check and that it had gone through. I then responded by laughing and making the comment "and your going to let her have a GUN because of this"? He asked me what did I mean by that and I told him nothing. He then got quiet and asked a direct question which I could answer honestly because it was him asking and not me telling. Do you feel your mother would ever use the gun if she had it? "Yes she would, she could and would kill someone. She would most definitely kill herself with it eventually." That was the end of the phone call and she was not allowed to pick up the gun. It really messed with me for a very long period of time. I could never really come to grips with what she had done and why she had done it and I am still very upset on many levels to this day with her and that situation. With this action of hers, she set into play a multi-dimensional play that I would be an actor in for the rest of my life to some degree, whether this was a goal or not is not the issue. What is the issue, is that she used me, my emotions, minds, feeling and soul, everything that makes me who I am, my being. She manipulated me on all levels of my being for her own purposes without regard to the effects it would have on me. I say without regard because if in fact she did consider me before her actions and what the possible effects could be and still went through with it, would be even harder to grasp emotionally and mentally or to even accept on the smallest level of understanding. The actions/posts of Phoenix’s are not the equation that give the result of how they were. I do not debate Phoenix, their abuses in their life, the right or wrong of killing themselves. It is not my place to say whether it is right or wrong for them to make that choice and act on that choice. But because it affected me in reading the post, I have come to my own conclusions as to meaning of it. This is where I find myself in a position of debate over the merit of the post. For me, it is multidimensional, yes he was in pain and yes they suffered untold abuses that no one should, or at least this is how they felt, I do not presume to know what took place in their life and I never had the chance to discuss this with them. Yes I can feel compassion for this person… But that compassion can not and will not over ride the fact that the post resulted in an extremely negative result. Or the fact that it was manipulation by all definitions. The post put people into the same position that was pushed on them as children, teens and adults when in a abusive relationship. Be it a relationship based on friends, family, work or any relationship that involves abuse. The abuser attempts to put you into a position of being at fault for the abuse, even if this is not a conscious goal of theirs. Abuse thrives on the ability of it causing the abused to be in a state of emotional and mental confusion. In effect they leave you being the cause of what is projected upon you. They manipulate you, your being. The result of the action/post stands as an example of just how deeply it has affected this group. People branched off into things that are important to them and argue/ed it out and are still doing so.People turned personal opinions and positions into things to be brandished for personal attacks. Emotions run high, fear, anger, pain, love and all of the other products that are a results of the post triggering people are displayed very openly in the continuing discussion about the meaning behind the words of the post and what it means to each person on a personal level. Focus on the act of suicide and the reactions of people either numbing themselves to what they see as the meaning behind the post and what the words held for them, or what others whose personal conclusions conflicted with their own position held. Discussing all of these things is a good thing, and the result of the manipulation is very positive on one hand, but the negative resides there also. These are all issues that are held very deeply by each and everyone in this group and those outside of it for that matter. Each person will decide if they are ready and with who they will share these thoughts and feelings. They will discusse them in their own time in there own way. They are very personal emotions, thoughts and feelings that are part of the being of the person. This one post has triggered these things being shared, used against others, lines drawn in the sand to stand behind, told, explained, ranted, raved and or communicated. If that is not proof of manipulation then I for one need to rethink my emotional and mental position in life. Did Phoenix have a right to make such a post, yes without question. Do people have the right to their position and opinions, yes again without question. Is my position that the post was an act of manipulation, yes again without question and based on any possible definition of the word. Is this only my opinion as far as I know, yes. Does that mean it is right or wrong? Or that anyone else’s is right or wrong because of it? NO Do I, personally, feel that the post was nothing less than an act of manipulation when everything is weighed out and the majority of the effects are looked at, without question. I am not saying there is nothing else involved with the post, the meaning of it. What I am saying is that it was a manipulative post, and that it also succeeded hands down. I for one do not feel it is ok to manipulate people on an emotional level and then just walk away leaving them in a position of being an emotional hostage. With no other recourse than the argue it out from the outside perspective while denying the critical information to base a factual conclusion on. Sorry, but thats my opinion. John PS. If Phoenix is dead, it is a very sad thing and very unfair to them. If Phoenix is not dead, it could be considered an even sadder thing if the circumstance in actuality was that they did this for nothing less than a negative high, this would place them in the position of being a abuser, a waste of air and space.

Response:

[...] The abuser attempts to put you into a position of being at fault for the abuse, even if this is not a conscious goal of theirs. Abuse thrives on the ability of it causing the abused to be in a state of emotional and mental confusion. In effect they leave you being the cause of what is projected upon you.  [...]

Thanks for a great and honest post. Wanted to highlight this statement as extremely observant and important to remember, especially when the tornado of another person attempts to suck you in. Smartest move to make is away from the funnel. Trick is to recognize one when you see one—THEN  you can find a place that’s safe to talk about the destruction rather than continue, through horrific fascination, attempts to engage it further. A tornado is never your fault, whether you see it coming or not. My best, F |—–Drop: moner to reply; don’t mail what can’t be posted—–|

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – x-no-archive: yes x-no-archive: yes I was forwarded several posts over the past few days from the suicide threads…. I wasn’t forwarded every post on the thread, so I only feel prepared to comment on that situation in general terms. But I thought I might try to address some of the issues that were raised, in the process of trying to talk through what happened to me this summer… I have been diagnosed with chronic major depression, obsessive-compulsive disorder, and post-traumatic stress disorder. I tend to enter depression cycles that last for long periods of time. But the last time I was actively suicidal, before this summer, was 1991. My depression and disorders are not chemically-based. I can point to specific situations and events which have precipitated every severe depression. I’ve been through a mountain of blood tests and an even larger mountain of pills as doctor after doctor experimented with med after med, with no good effects and every side-effect in the book. I’m now finishing coming off the Lithium, Ativan, Paxil, Naprosyn, Tylenol, and Benadryl they experimented with this summer…. Now the doctor is talking about starting me on Nardil, which has the longest drug/food/drink interaction list I’ve ever seen. I just don’t care enough to try again. And very honestly, I’m likely to make a deadly interaction mistake. I still have suicidal thoughts. Very often. But I am not actively suicidal, so please do not have any worries about that. I’m doing fine. I want to share a little of what happened to me, to take me to the point of deciding to make an attempt, and what I thought the effects on my survivors might be, to perhaps set out where I am on these issues…. Several different things led me to my decision to commit suicide three months ago (though I was hospitalized before I made the actual attempt). Some of those things involved actions other people had taken toward me. While I do hold those people responsible for their actions, I do not hold them responsible for my decision to attempt suicide. While these decisions are related, the responsibility is not. In the case of Phoenix, those who responded to him are responsible for their words (positive or negative). However, they are not responsible for his suicide; he alone made that decision. When I was making the decision, I wasn’t trying to harm anyone…. In fact, my main concern WAS the harm I would cause others, particularly my two young sons. I was very very concerned that they would grow up wondering what they had done wrong to cause me to leave them — had they been too naughty, or too much trouble??? In fact, my two sons are what have kept me going as long as I have. But as I made my decision that night, I began to realize that perhaps the question wasn’t "Do I love them enough to stay???" Maybe the more appropriate thing to do was to look to a better future for them when my husband would remarry a much more stable mother for them, and the question became for me, that night, "Do I love them enough to let them go???"  It made all the difference…. In the case of Phoenix, it seems to me that his final post was intended to inflict the maximum possible pain on those around him, even those who tried very hard to reach out to him. It just wasn’t enough for him. While my own last hours before a suicide attempt have always found me very lucid, methodical, and actually calm, it seems that Phoenix’s last hours before this last post were filled with pain and rage. I think it is appropriate for us to recognize Phoenix’s pain…. I think it is also appropriate for us to recognize the pain Phoenix’s actions caused the people of AAR…. Phoenix is just as responsible for his words and actions as are those who spoke with him or chose not to do so. And I think it is appropriate for people to speak to the pain they are feeling because of his actions. But I think it is also appropriate for people to speak to the pain they are feeling FOR Phoenix, in recognizing the pain he must have been in to write such a post. Where does a suicide leave the survivors??? I have a few friends on this newsgroup who have been deeply affected by suicides by members of their families or other loved ones. And my heart goes out to you. Their decision was not your fault. But the legacy of their decision resides with you, in the pain you bear of their loss. I can tell you that in my own situation, I was acutely aware of the pain I would cause…. I can’t express the agony that really caused me, and it weighed heavily in my decision…. But in the end, I decided that over time, my loved ones would recover…. Friends would eventually forget me…. And my children would be better off in the long run…. I knew I would cause immediate pain, but I truly believed that it was the best decision in the long run…. In the case of Phoenix, I honestly cannot tell you what he was thinking. None of us can. Perhaps he was in so much pain that he decided to lash out in anger, in an attempt to swamp everyone in guilt and extend his pain to others…. Perhaps he was in so much agony that he tried to reach out to make one last plea, but the words were lost in his anger…. I just don’t know….. What I do know is the very real pain that is being felt by friends on both sides of this issue. I have talked in depth with a couple of people on both sides of the issue, and it seems as though the pain of Phoenix’s posts and apparent suicide are making it difficult for people on either side to hear the words the other is trying to say…. There has been much talk of compassion — for Phoenix, for those who tried to talk with him, for those who could not talk with him, for those who were unaware of the situation until after his last post, for those who are discussing this very difficult issue now…. Please, can we have compassion for each other now, in this discussion??? This is such a difficult issue for those of us who have contemplated, attempted, or survived the suicide of another. Please, can we try to be gentle with each other while we’re trying to discuss this situation??? Just one more thing…. Phoenix may not be dead at all….. Perhaps he lives, watching the reactions to his posts, trying to determine whether anyone really did care at all…. We have no way of knowing that…. But it is something to consider, because even if Phoenix is indeed gone, there are quite likely other lurkers among us who are suicidal, and who are watching our reactions, as well…. I am not looking for any response to this post….. I only wanted to put my thoughts out here…. Should you wish to reply to me, please do so by e-mail, as I am still unsubscribed from the newsgroup and will not see discussions here. Should you choose to discuss this post on the newsgroup, I ask that you please either snip my post in your reply, or honor the x-no-archive: yes, as I don’t want this very personal discussion archived forever. Thank you for considering my thoughts. Just Lis — For more information about this posting service, contact: If you want an anonymous account, visit our sign-up page: http://asarian-host.org/emailform.html

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