Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:49:52 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:37:18 -0800, "kc" ><kelly_marsops_NoS…@msn.com> wrote: >>"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message >>news:u3tspvkvtp9dkt54vjtuqh527nam2r837u@4ax.com… >>> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:24:45 -0800, "kc" >>> <kelly_marsops_NoS…@msn.com> wrote: >>> >"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message >>> >news:74nrpv84j3vos1onk3capd3u79v58t24es@4ax.com… >>> >> It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these >>> >> prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric >>> >> assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close >>> >> or otherwise.. >>> >> Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet >>> >> without ever seeing a doctor.. >>> >you realize that this is a problem with the doctors >>> You blame the doctors for believing drug company disinformation and >>> lies? >>no, i blame doctors for not requiring psych consults before perscribing psyc >>meds. i blame the doctors for not monitoring patients who need to be >>monitored. i don’t see any disinfo here. the med inserts say that suicide >>is a risk in ANY depressed patient, and indeed it is. if the docs hand out >>a pill and ignore a suicidal patient, how on earth can that be the drug co’s >>fault? >>> One primary purpose of such advisories is to correct such >>> disinformation as to the safety and prescribing practices.. >>execpt there was no disinformation. this advisory doesn’t tell anyone >>anything new. >really..?
Yes. Some of us read the literature jake. >"While occurrences of suicidality are not unexpected in patients with >MDD, preliminary data suggest an excess of such reports for patients >assigned to several of these antidepressant drugs compared to those >assigned to placebo. "
and that statement still does not support the conclussion that you are inferring. >>> the use of SSRIs to treat depression is problematic >>> and of increasing concern..whatever spin might be used to hide thr >>> fact >>seriously, i have no idea what your little agenda is all about, but SSRIs, >>among other depression treatments, save MANY more lives than you claim they >>take. >this was the promise..and the sales proposition.. >time has proved the confidence misplaced..
How has that been proven jake? >it has yet to be shown that SSRIs "save childrens lives" in any way >shape or form.. >>i’ve said it before. don’t like them, don’t take them. but there’s no >>reason to wage a campaign against an entire class of meds that have saved so >>many lives. >so lets just sweep the victims and ruined lives >under the carpet then…
alone with the ones who decide that they can no longer go on living because of self riteous assholes like you. ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 16:02:27 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:48:38 -0500, Mark D Morin ><mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >>On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:54:03 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>>despite the attempt to generalise to suicides in general in AD treated >>>patients the report actually is concerned with CHILDREN who are >>>attempting suicide more often when taking the AD than those recieving >>>a placebo. >>>this is headline news… >>>here is the actual alert >>>http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/advisory/mdd.htm >>and where are the nondepressed controls you were talking about who >>became suicidal? >I never suggested for one moment they were in the alert.. >As you know full well..having discussed it before .. >the data on the the normal volunteers >are hidden as "proprietry information" in the drug company archives.
Oh, that’s right. That hidden information that’s somehow not available. Keep at it and you will sound as paranoid as linda. ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
In news message: oi9spvki75gjnik2k7f7pblgd7abkil…@4ax.com, jake <inva…@invalid.com> typed: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:46:56 GMT, "Jon Quixote" > <jpoisel_n_o_s_p_a…@starband.net> wrote: <snip> >> So far as I can tell, you’re both "right", but not for the reason the >> other thinks. 
>> Again, if I read this disagreement correctly, you are correct, AFAIK, the >> FDA has not previously issued a *general* alert for public consumption >> regarding the *possible* link between antiDs and rare increase in >> suicidal ideation. >> Mark is correct in that the information that is being presented in the >> alert regarding that *possible* link is NOT new, and has been included >> with most if not all antidepressant literature for quite a long time, >> including the warning to the prescriber to monitor the patient’s initial >> exposure to the drug closely due to the *possible* risk of increased >> ideation. >> If I misinterpreted either side, my apologies for jumping in on that >> particular part of y’all’s conversation. > If the FDA had listened to Mark of course..they would have realized > that would have been no need to send out this alert to all doctors > and health care professionals.. > In the real world..the data from their studies convinced them there > was….
Interesting. I’m split on the significance of the alert now. On the one hand, the Reuter’s report appears to be a followup on the alert, wherein the FDA clarified what it had issued in the alert in such a way as to tend to support Mark’s POV – but OTOH, the original alert tends to support your POV. > despite the attempt to generalise to suicides in general in AD treated
Perhaps that phrasing is a bit harsh? I don’t know that he’s "attempting" to generalize, rather it appears that he’s saying that the information, if the Reuter’s followup is accurate, is basically saying that irregardless of whether it is being aimed at pediatricians or not, the information contained therein has been known to health care professionals for quite a while. I note that your disagreement gets more specific thereafter insofar as whether medlit included with the drugs are in and of themselves effective for alerting anyone, whether the ingestor or the prescriber, but that’s an issue I don’t feel qualified to comment on except personal feeling: "fine print" is unfortunately both necessary (due to costs otherwise of reproducing mandated FYI material in standard print – and this nation already complains of the cost associated with medication VERY frequently) and IMO more often an artifact to slip unpleasant information under the reader’s threshold of attention. "Fine print" is a legally acceptable compromise and one that’s difficult to make a statement pro or con for. Given that fine print would likely not even be included if not legally mandated, at least the information IS there, rather than not included at all if they weren’t forced to do so. IIRC, it’s already been challenged in the past as inadequate if fine print information that affects the health or wellbeing of the assignee is kept to a "for more information, call/goto/write to such and so place" minimum. That may even be the case for any product or service that materially impacts the assignee whether physically or financially. > patients the report actually is concerned with CHILDREN who are > attempting suicide more often when taking the AD than those recieving > a placebo. > this is headline news… > here is the actual alert > http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/advisory/mdd.htm
<snip> > I guess they should just abandon the meeting huh? > as all the data and findings are on the insert?? > sheesh..
I don’t believe he was suggesting abandoning the meeting for any reason. It appeared to me that he was simply saying the information is not new and has been known to pediatricians and other health care professionals for a while. HOWEVER, I will say that the original alert’s phrasing DOES suggest to me that the FDA is emphasizing an even GREATER risk than first believed as applied to children > here is the previous Talk paper that was not "ages ago " > but only four months ago > June 19, 2003 > FDA Talk Paper > http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2003/ANS01230.html
Again, it depends on which phrasing one is reading – Mark’s, that claims the information has been available for quite some time, or yours, where you are emphasizing that for the FDA to make widespread public announcement regarding this phenomenon IS new. >> I note that elsewhere you claimed that "normal" (presumably meaning >> "non-depressed") people committed suicide while taking the drugs in >> question during their trials – where did you get that from? I didn’t see >> any hint of such a statistic. > No..I said became suicidal
So you did. My mistake and my apologies. > nobody did for a long time..the drug company supressed the results of > their safety trials showing this..and only gave then to researchers > when a court forced then too.. > http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s312381.htm
Whom to "condemn", then, if somebody isn’t aware of the fine print – the unpleasant (or even "alarming") news, as it were? In this particular case, I think it depends on how likely the suppression of evidence is, and if so, why there hasn’t been a MUCH bigger stink about it than apparently only one doctor’s concern. If it turns out the suppression isn’t occuring in the way the interview implies, and that the information is, in fact, available – just not widely disseminated without query being involved – we kind of come back full circle: the information IS well known because doctors HAVE done the followup queries. That DOESN’T excuse the pharmaceutical companies from playing "head in the sand" games with their data, of course – but it’s a separate point of debate from this thread, I believe. — Jon Quixote What is axiomatic frequently isn’t.
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:48:38 -0500, Mark D Morin <mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:54:03 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>despite the attempt to generalise to suicides in general in AD treated >>patients the report actually is concerned with CHILDREN who are >>attempting suicide more often when taking the AD than those recieving >>a placebo. >>this is headline news… >>here is the actual alert >>http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/advisory/mdd.htm >and where are the nondepressed controls you were talking about who >became suicidal?
I never suggested for one moment they were in the alert.. As you know full well..having discussed it before .. the data on the the normal volunteers are hidden as "proprietry information" in the drug company archives. Disclosure necessitates court orders. http://www.socialaudit.org.uk/58004-DH.htm Miss Sarah Wark, Senior Scientific Assessor 28 February 2000 Post-Licensing Division, Medicines Control Agency Market Towers, 1 Nine Elms Lane LONDON SW8 5NQ Dear Miss Sarah Wark, [See previous letter] I will be very happy in due course to send you a copy of the full study report when this is available. It may however take some weeks or even some months before I can forward this to you. In the meantime it is my understanding that a number of the studies with various different antidepressants that have been conducted with healthy volunteers as part of a series of pre and post registration tests have noted similar reactions to the ones that I have reported in our study. So much is this the case, that there is a general understanding in the field, certainly among the older practitioners working with different pharmaceutical companies, that strange reactions of this type are almost to be expected from healthy volunteers. 20 or 30 years ago the rationale for accepting such reactions was that antidepressants would never be given to anybody who wasn’t depressed and that there were clearly differences between the brains of people who were hospitalised cases of endogenous depression compared with normal volunteers. These rationales have vanished as depression has extended to the point where cases of what were Valium are now cases of Prozac. The most commonly prescribed use for Prozac it seems to me, and many of the other SSRIs, is for anxiety and stress reactions. These are the people whom I see regularly becoming suicidal on these drugs. This is a group of patients in whom it is not clear that there are likely to be any great differences between their brain states and those of healthy volunteers. My understanding is that there are many people in the field whom the MCA could consult who would be able to confirm this position. There is also likely to be a considerable amount of data that companies have but whether they have submitted this to you or not is less clear to me. I think the study on Sertraline induced suicidality in healthy volunteers is directly relevant to the question of suicide in the Prozac SPC that you say you will consider in the event that new information emerges. I feel this is new information directly relevant to the Prozac SPC. I think it’s highly likely that Lilly in addition to other companies will have data of the kind that I have referred to above. As regards Legal Jeopardy I have consulted with a number of lawyers on this and all appear to agree with me. The situation as I see it is as follows. Patients entering clinical trials have a range of adverse effects which are not at present being coded for either at all or satisfactorily. In the case of side-effects not coded for satisfactorily these include problems such as suicidal ideation, which are coded for under depression. Akathisia is not coded for. Emotional indifference or emotional blunting or disinhibition are not coded for. This is an understandable situation. It is understandable and perhaps acceptable if in the absence of figures to support a proper incidence for these problems, marketeers for a company claim that the incidence of these side-effects is zero. Everybody knows, you included I’m sure, that side-effect data commonly marketed by companies is hopelessly inadequate and underestimates the true extent of the problems probably by a six-fold factor. The legal jeopardy arises when patients who suffer from an adverse effect on the drug to the extent that they consider a legal action are then faced with a company denying that the drug causes the problem based upon the way the side-effect data have been coded in their clinical trials. This could happen to you or me or Dr Jones. Take the side-effects that have happened on Prozac for instance, and the way Lilly have handled the data on this issue in both court cases last year and in print in academic journals within the last 18 months. It is this that constitutes a state of legal jeopardy. I would be very grateful if you could confirm for me that our understandings coincide on this point. If they do not, and you consider that this state is not a state of legal jeopardy, I would be very grateful if you cold explain to me exactly why not. I would not want to mislead any more people than I might have already misled by including this understanding of current practices in any more articles or books that I write. I would be very grateful therefore to hear back from you on this point specifically. Yours sincerely, David Healy MD FRCPsych Director, North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->==================================================== >Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. >"Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It >eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon >that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is >a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. > "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the >lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… >No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul >is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, >you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY >you no longer need to feel it. > "Yo need to forgive your father." >Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" >http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 15:36:14 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:40:42 -0500, Mark D Morin ><mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >>On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:30:33 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>>AFAIAA concern with violating copyright is the issue.. >>>rather than your uglyminded interpretations.. >>This is coming from someone who routinely reposts the entire article >>rather than simply provide a link? >are you being deliberately obtuse? >Its not my issue..and I did not post the >article here..
It looks like you are the one being obtuse. Did you not write: "AFAIAA concern with violating copyright is the issue.." – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>It’s been on the warning lables and general print outs each patient >>>>gets from the pharmacist for ages. >>>NO it has not been on inserts for "ages" >>It has been here >>>>>perhaps you should ..without your alterations.. >>>>no alterations jake. >>>(not medication) exists nowhere in the text..it is your addition.. >>don’t know what you are talking about jake–nothing was inserted nor >>deleted in my cutting and pasting. > the words "(not medication)" arrived from where then?
What are you talking about? I cut and paste jake–there was nothing in what I pasted that wasn’t in what I copied. If there was, tell it to microsoft. >>>the thread is about concern that children given ADs in clinical trials >>That’s not what the thread says jake >the thread says nothing..contributors to it do.. >the subject line is > FDA Alert: Watch for Suicide of Kids on AD’s 10/27/03 >on my newsreader anyhow..
and is that equivalent to what you said the thread is about? ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:30:33 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >AFAIAA concern with violating copyright is the issue.. >rather than your uglyminded interpretations..
This is coming from someone who routinely reposts the entire article rather than simply provide a link? >>It’s been on the warning lables and general print outs each patient >>gets from the pharmacist for ages. >NO it has not been on inserts for "ages"
It has been here >>>perhaps you should ..without your alterations.. >>no alterations jake. >(not medication) exists nowhere in the text..it is your addition..
don’t know what you are talking about jake–nothing was inserted nor deleted in my cutting and pasting. >the thread is about concern that children given ADs in clinical trials
That’s not what the thread says jake ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:54:03 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >despite the attempt to generalise to suicides in general in AD treated >patients the report actually is concerned with CHILDREN who are >attempting suicide more often when taking the AD than those recieving >a placebo. >this is headline news… >here is the actual alert >http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/advisory/mdd.htm
and where are the nondepressed controls you were talking about who became suicidal? ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:24:45 -0800, "kc" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<kelly_marsops_NoS…@msn.com> wrote: >"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message >news:74nrpv84j3vos1onk3capd3u79v58t24es@4ax.com… >> It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these >> prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric >> assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close >> or otherwise.. >> Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet >> without ever seeing a doctor.. >you realize that this is a problem with the doctors
You blame the doctors for believing drug company disinformation and lies? One primary purpose of such advisories is to correct such disinformation as to the safety and prescribing practices.. >and internet drug >pushers,
sadly many such sites employ doctors on a commission only basis to prescribe to strangers >not with the medications themselves.
nice try.. the use of SSRIs to treat depression is problematic and of increasing concern..whatever spin might be used to hide thr fact – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->right? >-kelly
Response:
"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:u3tspvkvtp9dkt54vjtuqh527nam2r837u@4ax.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:24:45 -0800, "kc" > <kelly_marsops_NoS…@msn.com> wrote: > >"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message > >news:74nrpv84j3vos1onk3capd3u79v58t24es@4ax.com… > >> It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these > >> prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric > >> assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close > >> or otherwise.. > >> Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet > >> without ever seeing a doctor.. > >you realize that this is a problem with the doctors > You blame the doctors for believing drug company disinformation and > lies?
no, i blame doctors for not requiring psych consults before perscribing psyc meds. i blame the doctors for not monitoring patients who need to be monitored. i don’t see any disinfo here. the med inserts say that suicide is a risk in ANY depressed patient, and indeed it is. if the docs hand out a pill and ignore a suicidal patient, how on earth can that be the drug co’s fault? > One primary purpose of such advisories is to correct such > disinformation as to the safety and prescribing practices..
execpt there was no disinformation. this advisory doesn’t tell anyone anything new. > the use of SSRIs to treat depression is problematic > and of increasing concern..whatever spin might be used to hide thr > fact
seriously, i have no idea what your little agenda is all about, but SSRIs, among other depression treatments, save MANY more lives than you claim they take. i’ve said it before. don’t like them, don’t take them. but there’s no reason to wage a campaign against an entire class of meds that have saved so many lives. -kelly
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 08:40:42 -0500, Mark D Morin <mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:30:33 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>AFAIAA concern with violating copyright is the issue.. >>rather than your uglyminded interpretations.. >This is coming from someone who routinely reposts the entire article >rather than simply provide a link?
are you being deliberately obtuse? Its not my issue..and I did not post the article here.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>It’s been on the warning lables and general print outs each patient >>>gets from the pharmacist for ages. >>NO it has not been on inserts for "ages" >It has been here >>>>perhaps you should ..without your alterations.. >>>no alterations jake. >>(not medication) exists nowhere in the text..it is your addition.. >don’t know what you are talking about jake–nothing was inserted nor >deleted in my cutting and pasting.
the words "(not medication)" arrived from where then? >>the thread is about concern that children given ADs in clinical trials >That’s not what the thread says jake
the thread says nothing..contributors to it do.. the subject line is FDA Alert: Watch for Suicide of Kids on AD’s 10/27/03 on my newsreader anyhow.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->==================================================== >Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. >"Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It >eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon >that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is >a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. > "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the >lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… >No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul >is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, >you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY >you no longer need to feel it. > "Yo need to forgive your father." >Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" >http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
– "Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned; until there is no longer any first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; until the color of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all, without regard to race — until that day, the dreams of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained." Haile Sellassie
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 06:37:18 -0800, "kc" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<kelly_marsops_NoS…@msn.com> wrote: >"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message >news:u3tspvkvtp9dkt54vjtuqh527nam2r837u@4ax.com… >> On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:24:45 -0800, "kc" >> <kelly_marsops_NoS…@msn.com> wrote: >> >"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message >> >news:74nrpv84j3vos1onk3capd3u79v58t24es@4ax.com… >> >> It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these >> >> prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric >> >> assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close >> >> or otherwise.. >> >> Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet >> >> without ever seeing a doctor.. >> >you realize that this is a problem with the doctors >> You blame the doctors for believing drug company disinformation and >> lies? >no, i blame doctors for not requiring psych consults before perscribing psyc >meds. i blame the doctors for not monitoring patients who need to be >monitored. i don’t see any disinfo here. the med inserts say that suicide >is a risk in ANY depressed patient, and indeed it is. if the docs hand out >a pill and ignore a suicidal patient, how on earth can that be the drug co’s >fault? >> One primary purpose of such advisories is to correct such >> disinformation as to the safety and prescribing practices.. >execpt there was no disinformation. this advisory doesn’t tell anyone >anything new.
really..? you were aware of the following by some sort of precognition or ESP then..I presume "While occurrences of suicidality are not unexpected in patients with MDD, preliminary data suggest an excess of such reports for patients assigned to several of these antidepressant drugs compared to those assigned to placebo. " unfortunately the FDA guessed most doctors and health care professionals did not possess your speciaslpowers and issed an alert.. >> the use of SSRIs to treat depression is problematic >> and of increasing concern..whatever spin might be used to hide thr >> fact >seriously, i have no idea what your little agenda is all about, but SSRIs, >among other depression treatments, save MANY more lives than you claim they >take.
this was the promise..and the sales proposition.. time has proved the confidence misplaced.. it has yet to be shown that SSRIs "save childrens lives" in any way shape or form.. >i’ve said it before. don’t like them, don’t take them. but there’s no >reason to wage a campaign against an entire class of meds that have saved so >many lives.
so lets just sweep the victims and ruined lives under the carpet then… I know..why dont we just abandon all safety and regulatory bodies entirely..and give children whatever drugs the multinationals see fit to produce? — "Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned; until there is no longer any first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; until the color of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all, without regard to race — until that day, the dreams of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained." Haile Sellassie
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Mark D Morin wrote: > ==================================================== > Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. > "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It > eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon > that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is > a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. > "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the > lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… > No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul > is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, > you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY > you no longer need to feel it. > "Yo need to forgive your father." > Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven"
Interesting quote, Mark. A friend gave me Albom’s first book as a supposedly very honored and cherished gift … I thought it was complete, self-absorbed rubbish, so I haven’t read his second book — maybe now that Albom has "evolved" a bit away from what looked like a very selfabsorbed life when he apparently dealt with death for the first time at a somewhat mature age, the second book may have more substance? Anyway, this quote coincidentally raises a point which recently surfaced here on ast. I don’t think one necessarily must "forgive and forget" when it comes to awful parents. But, if the anger and fallout from awful parents/parenting is affecting *yourself,* then you must find a way to understand it, resolve it, deal with it, whatever, put it behind you and get to some point of peace and resolution … not for your parents’ sake, necessarily, but for yourself — for your own good. Not for the sake of "forgiving and forgetting," but so that you can go on without baggage, even if you can’t necessarily forgive or forget. Some people who say they have nothing to "get over" or "resolve" may run the risk of finding themselves in very hurting positions when their parents are gone and they realize they had business that needed tending to while there was time, but that door was closed by death — even if that process doesn’t necessarily involve "forgiving and forgetting," rather reaching some point of resolution that allows one to go forward without that baggage. Because holding anger or hurt or frustration or bitterness is a poison, and you may not realize what you’re holding until it’s too late. My point long ago was to examine what you are holding and how it is affecting you while you still have time to ask whatever questions you may want to ask of the parent, who won’t always be around. To be in a position that, even if you can’t "forgive and forget," that you did all you could, and you can be at peace with yourself and your life. For fans of Stephen Schwartz’s "real" music — not his commercial, Academy Award stuff — he has a great song on this topic on one of his recent CD’s, as he worked through that kind of resolution about his parents … don’t remember the name of the CD, would have to ask my son, who is so into all types of great music lately, so I’ve been hearing some really good stuff in the car … where is Blurt? — Tourette Syndrome – Now What? http://tourettenowwhat.tripod.com
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"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:74nrpv84j3vos1onk3capd3u79v58t24es@4ax.com… > It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these > prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric > assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close > or otherwise.. > Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet > without ever seeing a doctor..
you realize that this is a problem with the doctors and internet drug pushers, not with the medications themselves. right? -kelly
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In news message: oijrpv07gfhjm4g6iv646ggfgl506rf…@4ax.com, jake <inva…@invalid.com> typed: > On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, Mark D Morin > <mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote:
<snipt> >> the whole thing–and when reading it NB: >> 1) it is acknowledging that it is saying nothing new > That the FDA is concerned enough to put out an alert is certainly new. > and headine despite your attempts at minimisation.
Not sure what you mean about how "new" this alert is – IIRC, I read the warning *presented* in the alert close to a decade ago in a Paxil brochure. The point appears to be twofold: 1. Some people commit suicide while under clinical trials (or afterword) 2. There isn’t any way they can determine whether it’s the drug’s fault or the fact(?) that the people taking the drug are, in all likelihood, depressed, and hence at highest risk for suicide regardless of whether they are on these medications or not. IMO this is more of a FDA attempt to heighten general public awareness of the risk rather than an attempt to present it as "new". I believe you and Mark are disagreeing over interpretation based on differences of phrasing – you appear to be contending that for the FDA to issue an alert is new, whereas Mark appears to be contending that the information the FDA is presenting isn’t new. So far as I can tell, you’re both "right", but not for the reason the other thinks. Again, if I read this disagreement correctly, you are correct, AFAIK, the FDA has not previously issued a *general* alert for public consumption regarding the *possible* link between antiDs and rare increase in suicidal ideation. Mark is correct in that the information that is being presented in the alert regarding that *possible* link is NOT new, and has been included with most if not all antidepressant literature for quite a long time, including the warning to the prescriber to monitor the patient’s initial exposure to the drug closely due to the *possible* risk of increased ideation. If I misinterpreted either side, my apologies for jumping in on that particular part of y’all’s conversation. I note that elsewhere you claimed that "normal" (presumably meaning "non-depressed") people committed suicide while taking the drugs in question during their trials – where did you get that from? I didn’t see any hint of such a statistic. <snipt> — Jon Quixote What is axiomatic frequently isn’t.
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 07:46:56 GMT, "Jon Quixote" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<jpoisel_n_o_s_p_a…@starband.net> wrote: >In news message: oijrpv07gfhjm4g6iv646ggfgl506rf…@4ax.com, >jake <inva…@invalid.com> typed: >> On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, Mark D Morin >> <mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: ><snipt> >>> the whole thing–and when reading it NB: >>> 1) it is acknowledging that it is saying nothing new >> That the FDA is concerned enough to put out an alert is certainly new. >> and headine despite your attempts at minimisation. >Not sure what you mean about how "new" this alert is – IIRC, I read the >warning *presented* in the alert close to a decade ago in a Paxil brochure. >The point appears to be twofold: >1. Some people commit suicide while under clinical trials (or afterword) >2. There isn’t any way they can determine whether it’s the drug’s fault or >the fact(?) that the people taking the drug are, in all likelihood, >depressed, and hence at highest risk for suicide regardless of whether they >are on these medications or not. >IMO this is more of a FDA attempt to heighten general public awareness of >the risk rather than an attempt to present it as "new". >I believe you and Mark are disagreeing over interpretation based on >differences of phrasing – you appear to be contending that for the FDA to >issue an alert is new, whereas Mark appears to be contending that the >information the FDA is presenting isn’t new. >So far as I can tell, you’re both "right", but not for the reason the other >thinks. >Again, if I read this disagreement correctly, you are correct, AFAIK, the >FDA has not previously issued a *general* alert for public consumption >regarding the *possible* link between antiDs and rare increase in suicidal >ideation. >Mark is correct in that the information that is being presented in the alert >regarding that *possible* link is NOT new, and has been included with most >if not all antidepressant literature for quite a long time, including the >warning to the prescriber to monitor the patient’s initial exposure to the >drug closely due to the *possible* risk of increased ideation. >If I misinterpreted either side, my apologies for jumping in on that >particular part of y’all’s conversation.
If the FDA had listened to Mark of course..they would have realized that would have been no need to send out this alert to all doctors and health care professionals.. In the real world..the data from their studies convinced them there was…. despite the attempt to generalise to suicides in general in AD treated patients the report actually is concerned with CHILDREN who are attempting suicide more often when taking the AD than those recieving a placebo. this is headline news… here is the actual alert http://www.fda.gov/cder/drug/advisory/mdd.htm FDA PUBLIC HEALTH ADVISORY October 27, 2003 Subject: REPORTS OF SUICIDALITY IN PEDIATRIC PATIENTS BEING TREATED WITH ANTIDEPRESSANT MEDICATIONS FOR MAJOR DEPRESSIVE DISORDER (MDD) Dear Health Care Professional: The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) would like to call your attention to reports of the occurrence of suicidality (both suicidal ideation and suicide attempts) in clinical trials for various antidepressant drugs in pediatric patients with major depressive disorder (MDD). While occurrences of suicidality are not unexpected in patients with MDD, preliminary data suggest an excess of such reports for patients assigned to several of these antidepressant drugs compared to those assigned to placebo. FDA has completed a preliminary review of such reports for 8 antidepressant drugs (citalopram, fluoxetine, fluvoxamine*, mirtazapine, nefazodone, paroxetine, sertraline, and venlafaxine) studied under the pediatric exclusivity provision, and has determined that additional data and analysis, and also a public discussion of available data, are needed. FDA plans to hold an advisory committee meeting before the Psychopharmacologic Drugs Advisory Committee and the Pediatric Subcommittee of the Anti-Infective Drugs Advisory Committee on February 2, 2004. I guess they should just abandon the meeting huh? as all the data and findings are on the insert?? sheesh.. here is the previous Talk paper that was not "ages ago " but only four months ago June 19, 2003 FDA Talk Paper http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/ANSWERS/2003/ANS01230.html FDA Statement Regarding the Anti-Depressant Paxil for Pediatric Population The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) said today it is reviewing reports of a possible increased risk of suicidal thinking and suicide attempts in children and adolescents under the age of 18 treated with the drug Paxil for major depressive disorder (MDD). Although the FDA has not completed its evaluation of the new safety data, FDA is recommending that Paxil not be used in children and adolescents for the treatment of MDD. There is currently no evidence that Paxil is effective in children or adolescents with MDD, and Paxil is not currently approved for use in children and adolescents. Other approved treatment options are available for depression in children. Paxil is approved for use in adults for the treatment of Obsessive Compulsive Disorder (OCD), MDD, Panic Disorder, Social Anxiety Disorder (SAD), Generalized Anxiety Disorder, and Post-traumatic Stress Disorder. There is no evidence that Paxil is associated with an increased risk of suicidal thinking in adults. Three well-controlled trials in pediatric patients with MDD failed to show that the drug was more effective than placebo. The new safety information that is currently under review was derived from trials of Paxil in pediatric patients. Following its review of the same data, the UK Department of Health issued a Press Release on June 10 stating that paroxetine (brand name Seroxat in the UK) must not be used to treat children and teenagers under the age of 18 years for depressive illness because UK authorities have concluded that there is an increase in the rate of self harm and potentially suicidal behavior in this age group, when paroxetine is used for depressive illness. >I note that elsewhere you claimed that "normal" (presumably meaning >"non-depressed") people committed suicide while taking the drugs in question >during their trials – where did you get that from? I didn’t see any hint of >such a statistic.
No..I said became suicidal nobody did for a long time..the drug company supressed the results of their safety trials showing this..and only gave then to researchers when a court forced then too.. http://www.abc.net.au/pm/s312381.htm Researcher and academic raises questions about common anti-depressants PRINT FRIENDLY EMAIL STORY PM Archive – Wednesday, 13 June , 2001 00:00:00 Reporter: Mark Colvin MARK COLVIN: Now more on a story we brought you yesterday on the question surrounding some of the most widely prescribed anti-depressant drugs. The questions were raised by a researcher in Wales who has been delving into the archives of one of the big drug companies. He’s Dr David Healy of the North Wales Department of Psychological Medicine, a leading expert on, and critic of, anti-depressants and he’s on the line now from Wales. Dr Healey how did you find this new information? Where, where were you digging? DAVID HEALY: Okay, well roughly a year-and-a-half ago now in the university department here, we had – as part of some research – to look at how the anti-depressants work, given one of the anti-depressants that acts on the serotonin system – Zoloft, and another anti-depressant that has no action from the serotonin system, to a group of medical and nursing colleagues here. We found that Zoloft could make some absolutely normal people better than well, but equally it made two of our normal volunteers acutely suicidal. Now I’ve also been involved in some legal actions where people have committed suicide or homicide on, on SSRI’s [Selective Serotonin Reuptake Inhibitor] and following our work here I was curious to look at the healthy volunteer archives that companies like SmithKline and Pfizer have. MARK COLVIN: SmithKline which is now, I think, called Glaxo SmithKline, is that right? DAVID HEALY: That is the case yes. You see in order to get these drugs onto the market in the first instance, they’ve got to do what are phase one studies which usually involve giving the drug either once, or over the course of a few weeks, to several hundred healthy volunteers. MARK COLVIN: Are these documents closely guarded secrets, or were they easy for you to get? DAVID HEALY: Well no they are a closely guarded secret. My understanding is that very few other people have ever seen any of this work. And the interesting thing about this is the companies portray themselves as being in a scientific business, but in actual fact the emphasis I think needs to be on the business rather than the science, because one of the cardinal rules of science is that you make all of your data freely available. MARK COLVIN: Are you saying then that because of business reasons they covered up information which they should have released? DAVID HEALY: Well what I’m saying is the company responses on an issue like this will be that the findings from their healthy volunteer work is proprietary data and that you would never get a response like that from a university department. MARK COLVIN: But what did it say? Did it confirm your feeling that these drugs had side effects or could give people withdrawal symptoms? DAVID HEALY: Yes it did. What the argument from the companies has been is when people who are depressed become suicidal or nervous on their drug that that’s the illness. Now what the healthy volunteer work shows is that during the 1980s when this was actually being done, several years before these drugs reached the marketplace, that healthy volunteers being put on these drugs were becoming agitated at a rate of up to one in four. And in the case of Glaxo SmithKline’s … read more »
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:50:52 GMT, "Annelisa" <Annel…@nospam.com> wrote: >If he is so obsessed with L that he is attempting to press others into >service as proxy for L, perhaps, he ought to seek professional help and >have a therapist act as the proxy.
talking about yourself in the third person again? ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:02:00 -0500, Mark D Morin <mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:30:23 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>>I think most readers are intelligent enough to form their own opinions >>>based the entire text rather than paragraphs quoted here and there. >>clearly you do not think any such thing >>..as your spinning would then be redundant >Clearly you
perhaps you should clean your spectacles(or get some if you dont wear them) if you wish to talk of clearly.. FWIMBW I posted it in another group in its entirety.. you on the contrary added to it.. >and linda are the two who cut and paste info from the >alert.
I will disuss issues but not your obsession with Linda.. AFAIAA concern with violating copyright is the issue.. rather than your uglyminded interpretations.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>For most readers..I supect the original Reuters headline is clear >>enough.. >>Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says >>Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET >>WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued a >>public health advisory on Monday to alert doctors to reports that >>children and teen-agers with major depression thought about or >>attempted suicide in several clinical trials of antidepressants. >>>>"Nevertheless, it is not possible at this point to rule out an >>>>increased risk of these adverse events for any of these drugs, >>>>including Paxil (paroxetine)." >>>Close supervision of high-risk patients should accompany >>>initial drug therapy," the FDA advised. >>>i.e., nothing new. >>nothing new? >that’s correct
really ..? its always been public knowledge that children are attempting suicide whilst antidepressants are tested on them in clinical trials has it? >>It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these >> prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric >>assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close >>or otherwise.. >It’s been on the warning lables and general print outs each patient >gets from the pharmacist for ages.
NO it has not been on inserts for "ages" the drug companies have been forced by court cases and been overidden by regulatory bodies.. kicking and screaming all the way to do such.. Stock prices fall as a result of such warnings. Furthermore as global operators the amount of information revealed ..as to adversive reactions..varies from country to country depending upon what each national legistature has insisted upon. In any event an insert from the pharmacy hardly constitutes monitoring or supervision.. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet >>without ever seeing a doctor.. >>>>>3) it notes that depression (not medication) is the leading cause of >>>>>suicide >>>>"But it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the >>>>suicide, because depression is the leading cause of suicide." >>>>hardly the same >>>Try reading the sentence you quoted again. >>perhaps you should ..without your alterations.. >no alterations jake.
(not medication) exists nowhere in the text..it is your addition.. >>The report certainly does not rule out suicidal depression brought on >>by medications as in the case of the Paxil "normal volunteers.. >>Just what part of "it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs >>actually caused the suicide" do you fail to understand? >I understand it just fine.
Then why persist in the stale… old discredited drug company spin that the suicidal ideation has nothing to do with the drug but is a symptom of the depression? that normal volunteers become suicidal in drug trials has totally discredited that idea.. >what part don’t you understand
very droll… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>>>just a slightly different spin than what the original poster put on it >>>>>by selectively quoting >>>>The only spin I see is yours. >>>Thats probably because of your particular set of biases–Linda being >>>one of the biggest. >>I will discuss issues ..such as children attempting suicide whilst >>undergoing clinical trials for drug companies..but your obsession with >>Linda you will have to deal with on your own.. >I find it interesting that you have never (or not in the past two >years anyway) corrected linda when she has been blatently wrong. The >many times she has summarized an article and said something 180 >degrees opposite what the article said. Not once have you called her >to task for her slander, her lies, her vindictiveness. >Who is it that is biased jake?
I will discuss issues with you but not your obsession with Linda frankly it is really tedious.. the thread is about concern that children given ADs in clinical trials are attempting suicide..not how much you hate another poster.. — "Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned; until there is no longer any first-class and second-class citizens of any nation; until the color of a man’s skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all, without regard to race — until that day, the dreams of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained." Haile Sellassie
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On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, Mark D Morin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:42:30 GMT, "Nick" <N…@nospam.com> wrote: >>X-No-Archive: Yes >>Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says >>Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET >>Entire story. >>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3698… >>Key points >the whole thing–and when reading it NB: >1) it is acknowledging that it is saying nothing new
That the FDA is concerned enough to put out an alert is certainly new. and headine despite your attempts at minimisation. >2) it is not purporting a link between antidepressants and suicidal >ideation
It is saying the data do not establish a CLEAR link.. hardly the same "Nevertheless, it is not possible at this point to rule out an increased risk of these adverse events for any of these drugs, including Paxil (paroxetine)." >3) it notes that depression (not medication) is the leading cause of >suicide
"But it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the suicide, because depression is the leading cause of suicide." hardly the same >just a slightly different spin than what the original poster put on it >by selectively quoting
The only spin I see is yours.
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"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:oijrpv07gfhjm4g6iv646ggfgl506rf4uc@4ax.com… | On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, snipped The original FDA alert was with regards to clinical studies evidencing SSRI’s activate suicidal ideations in non-suicidal people. The FDA followed up that alert up with one warning clinical studies evidence Effexor activates suicide ideations in non-suidical people. This FDA alert is newsworthy because the FDA expanded the alert to include two more AD’s….Serzone and Remeron. Remeron being added to the list is most especially newsworthy because, Remeron isn’t generally perceived to be similiar to the SSRI’s, or SNRI’s or Effexor. If or should I say, when the FDA get’s around to adding Lexapro to the list, making it 9 AD’s altogether, I will post that FDA alert too.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:16:53 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, Mark D Morin ><mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >>On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:42:30 GMT, "Nick" <N…@nospam.com> wrote: >>>X-No-Archive: Yes >>>Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says >>>Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET >>>Entire story. >>>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3698… >>>Key points >>the whole thing–and when reading it NB: >>1) it is acknowledging that it is saying nothing new >That the FDA is concerned enough to put out an alert is certainly new. >and headine despite your attempts at minimisation.
If I minimized, so did the alert as it repeated that this is not based on new findings. >>2) it is not purporting a link between antidepressants and suicidal >>ideation >It is saying the data do not establish a CLEAR link..hardly the same
Well, what it *says* is "The data do not clearly establish an association between the use of these drugs and increased suicidal thoughts or actions by pediatric patients." I think most readers are intelligent enough to form their own opinions based the entire text rather than paragraphs quoted here and there. >"Nevertheless, it is not possible at this point to rule out an >increased risk of these adverse events for any of these drugs, >including Paxil (paroxetine)."
and the next sentence was: "The labeling of antidepressant drugs already carries precautionary language that the possibility of a suicide attempt is inherent in major depressive disorder and may persist until significant remission occurs. Close supervision of high-risk patients should accompany initial drug therapy," the FDA advised. i.e., nothing new. >>3) it notes that depression (not medication) is the leading cause of >>suicide >"But it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the >suicide, because depression is the leading cause of suicide." >hardly the same
Try reading the sentence you quoted again. >>just a slightly different spin than what the original poster put on it >>by selectively quoting >The only spin I see is yours.
Thats probably because of your particular set of biases–Linda being one of the biggest. ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
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"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message
news:74nrpv84j3vos1onk3capd3u79v58t24es@4ax.com… | On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:55:26 -0500, Mark D Morin | <mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote:
| | >Thats probably because of your particular set of biases–Linda being | >one of the biggest. | | I will discuss issues ..such as children attempting suicide whilst | undergoing clinical trials for drug companies..but your obsession with | Linda you will have to deal with on your own.. If he is so obsessed with L that he is attempting to press others into service as proxy for L, perhaps, he ought to seek professional help and have a therapist act as the proxy.
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:45:07 GMT, "Annelisa" <Annel…@nospam.com> wrote: >"jake" <inva…@invalid.com> wrote in message >news:oijrpv07gfhjm4g6iv646ggfgl506rf4uc@4ax.com… >| On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, >snipped >The original FDA alert was with regards to clinical studies evidencing >SSRI’s activate suicidal ideations in non-suicidal people.
Could you post that alert linda? I’m willing to bet that that is NOT what it said. ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
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On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 03:30:23 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>I think most readers are intelligent enough to form their own opinions >>based the entire text rather than paragraphs quoted here and there. >clearly you do not think any such thing >..as your spinning would then be redundant
Clearly you and linda are the two who cut and paste info from the alert. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->For most readers..I supect the original Reuters headline is clear >enough.. >Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says >Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET >WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued a >public health advisory on Monday to alert doctors to reports that >children and teen-agers with major depression thought about or >attempted suicide in several clinical trials of antidepressants. >>>"Nevertheless, it is not possible at this point to rule out an >>>increased risk of these adverse events for any of these drugs, >>>including Paxil (paroxetine)." >>Close supervision of high-risk patients should accompany >>initial drug therapy," the FDA advised. >>i.e., nothing new. >nothing new?
that’s correct >It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these > prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric >assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close >or otherwise..
It’s been on the warning lables and general print outs each patient gets from the pharmacist for ages. >Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet >without ever seeing a doctor.. >>>>3) it notes that depression (not medication) is the leading cause of >>>>suicide >>>"But it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the >>>suicide, because depression is the leading cause of suicide." >>>hardly the same >>Try reading the sentence you quoted again. >perhaps you should ..without your alterations..
no alterations jake. >The report certainly does not rule out suicidal depression brought on >by medications as in the case of the Paxil "normal volunteers.. >Just what part of "it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs >actually caused the suicide" do you fail to understand?
I understand it just fine. What part don’t you understand >>>>just a slightly different spin than what the original poster put on it >>>>by selectively quoting >>>The only spin I see is yours. >>Thats probably because of your particular set of biases–Linda being >>one of the biggest. >I will discuss issues ..such as children attempting suicide whilst >undergoing clinical trials for drug companies..but your obsession with >Linda you will have to deal with on your own..
I find it interesting that you have never (or not in the past two years anyway) corrected linda when she has been blatently wrong. The many times she has summarized an article and said something 180 degrees opposite what the article said. Not once have you called her to task for her slander, her lies, her vindictiveness. Who is it that is biased jake? ==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
Response:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 21:55:26 -0500, Mark D Morin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 02:16:53 +0000, jake <inva…@invalid.com> wrote: >>On Mon, 27 Oct 2003 20:54:57 -0500, Mark D Morin >><mdmp…@nospsmgwi.net> wrote: >>>On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:42:30 GMT, "Nick" <N…@nospam.com> wrote: >>>>X-No-Archive: Yes >>>>Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says >>>>Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET >>>>Entire story. >>>>http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3698… >>>>Key points >>>the whole thing–and when reading it NB: >>>1) it is acknowledging that it is saying nothing new >>That the FDA is concerned enough to put out an alert is certainly new. >>and headine despite your attempts at minimisation. >If I minimized, so did the alert as it repeated that this is not based >on new findings.
an alert is quite the opposite of minimising the dangers.. It is drawing attention to them.. >>>2) it is not purporting a link between antidepressants and suicidal >>>ideation >>It is saying the data do not establish a CLEAR link..hardly the same >Well, what it *says* is >"The data do not clearly establish an association between the use of >these drugs and increased suicidal thoughts or actions by pediatric >patients." >I think most readers are intelligent enough to form their own opinions >based the entire text rather than paragraphs quoted here and there.
clearly you do not think any such thing ..as your spinning would then be redundant For most readers..I supect the original Reuters headline is clear enough.. Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued a public health advisory on Monday to alert doctors to reports that children and teen-agers with major depression thought about or attempted suicide in several clinical trials of antidepressants. >>"Nevertheless, it is not possible at this point to rule out an >>increased risk of these adverse events for any of these drugs, >>including Paxil (paroxetine)." >Close supervision of high-risk patients should accompany >initial drug therapy," the FDA advised. >i.e., nothing new.
nothing new? It is certainly new to the millions of people prescribed these prescribed these drugs by a GP ..without an initial psychiatric assessment..let alone any monitoring or supervision of any kind..close or otherwise.. Not to mention the hundreds of thousands ordering them on the internet without ever seeing a doctor.. >>>3) it notes that depression (not medication) is the leading cause of >>>suicide >>"But it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the >>suicide, because depression is the leading cause of suicide." >>hardly the same >Try reading the sentence you quoted again.
perhaps you should ..without your alterations.. The report certainly does not rule out suicidal depression brought on by medications as in the case of the Paxil "normal volunteers.. Just what part of "it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the suicide" do you fail to understand? >>>just a slightly different spin than what the original poster put on it >>>by selectively quoting >>The only spin I see is yours. >Thats probably because of your particular set of biases–Linda being >one of the biggest.
I will discuss issues ..such as children attempting suicide whilst undergoing clinical trials for drug companies..but your obsession with Linda you will have to deal with on your own.. __ "When society turns a blind eye to the dangers of drugs and rushes to embrace a pharmaceutical cure for nearly every condition, there is almost no end to the harm that may result". Thomas.J.Moore
Response:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2003 00:42:30 GMT, "Nick" <N…@nospam.com> wrote: >X-No-Archive: Yes >Watch for Suicide with Depression Drugs, FDA Says >Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET >Entire story. >http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=healthNews&storyID=3698… >Key points
the whole thing–and when reading it NB: 1) it is acknowledging that it is saying nothing new 2) it is not purporting a link between antidepressants and suicidal ideation 3) it notes that depression (not medication) is the leading cause of suicide just a slightly different spin than what the original poster put on it by selectively quoting Mon October 27, 2003 02:31 PM ET WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued a public health advisory on Monday to alert doctors to reports that children and teen-agers with major depression thought about or attempted suicide in several clinical trials of antidepressants. Only one drug, fluoxetine, sold by Eli Lilly and Co. under the name Prozac, is approved for treating pediatric depression. But doctors are free to prescribe any approved drug and several are being tested. "The data do not clearly establish an association between the use of these drugs and increased suicidal thoughts or actions by pediatric patients," the FDA said in a statement. "Nevertheless, it is not possible at this point to rule out an increased risk of these adverse events for any of these drugs, including Paxil (paroxetine)." Paxil is made by GlaxoSmithKline Plc . "The labeling of antidepressant drugs already carries precautionary language that the possibility of a suicide attempt is inherent in major depressive disorder and may persist until significant remission occurs. Close supervision of high-risk patients should accompany initial drug therapy," the FDA advised. It said no one should stop taking the drugs abruptly, and certainly not without consulting a doctor. The FDA said it had reviewed reports about eight antidepressant drugs — Paxil, Prozac, citalopram, fluvoxamine, mirtazapine, nefazodone, sertraline, and venlafaxine. "FDA is aware of press and medical journal reports of suicide attempts and completed suicides in pediatric patients receiving antidepressants, and many such reports have also been submitted to FDA as spontaneous reports," the agency said. But it said it is hard to tell whether the drugs actually caused the suicide, because depression is the leading cause of suicide. The FDA has scheduled a meeting on Feb. 2, 2004, of the Psychopharmacologic Drugs Advisory committee and the Pediatric Subcommittee of the Anti-Infective Drugs Advisory Committee. Experts say an estimated 750,000 U.S. adolescents suffer from depression and 500,000 attempt suicide every year. About 1,700 succeed. >WASHINGTON (Reuters) – The U.S. Food and Drug Administration issued a >public health advisory on Monday to alert doctors to reports that >children and teen-agers with major depression thought about or >attempted suicide in several clinical trials of antidepressants. >The FDA said it had reviewed reports about eight antidepressant drugs >– Paxil, Prozac, citalopram, fluvoxamine, mirtazapine, nefazodone, >sertraline, and venlafaxine. >Experts say an estimated 750,000 U.S. adolescents suffer from >depression and 500,000 attempt suicide every year.
==================================================== Ruby stepped toward him. "Edward," she said softly. "Learn this from me. Holding anger is a poison. It eats you from inside. We think that hating is a weapon that attacks the person who harmed us. But hatred is a curved blade. And the harm we do, we do to ourselves. "Forgive, Edward, Forgive. Do you remember the lightness you felt when you first arrived in heaven?… No one is born with anger. And when we die, the soul is freed of it. But now, here, in order to move on, you must understand WHY you felt what you did, and WHY you no longer need to feel it. "Yo need to forgive your father." Mitch Albom, "the five people you meet in heaven" http://home.gwi.net/~mdmpsyd/index.htm
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