Trauma – PTSD

Question:

thinkanxiety.org – Severe stress can damage a child’s brain, say researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital. The researchers found that children with post-traumatic stress disorder and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol were likely to experience a decrease in the size of the hippocampus – a brain structure important in memory processing and emotion. Although similar effects have been seen in animal studies, this is the first time the findings have been replicated in children. The researchers focused on kids in extreme situations to better understand how stress affects brain development. "We’re not talking about the stress of doing your homework or fighting with your dad," said Packard Children’s child psychiatrist Victor Carrion, MD. "We’re talking about traumatic stress. These kids feel like they’re stuck in the middle of a street with a truck barreling down at them." Carrion, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the medical school and director of Stanford’s early life stress research program, and his collaborators speculate that cognitive deficits arising from stress hormones interfere with psychiatric therapy and prolong symptoms. The children in the study were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a result of undergoing physical, emotional or sexual abuse, witnessing violence or experiencing lasting separation and loss. This type of developmental trauma often impairs the child’s ability to reach social, emotional and academic milestones. "We’d really like to understand why some children are more resilient than others, and what the long-term effects of extreme stress are," said Carrion, who is the first author of the research, to be published in the March issue of Pediatrics. "We know, for example, that these children are at higher risk of developing depression and/or anxiety as adults." …cont. http://www.thinkanxiety.org/article-2996101.htm — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thinkanxiety.org – Severe stress can damage a child’s brain, damage seem sto imply a permanent state of being-this is untrue-certain changes obviously happen, but they can be reversed or at least compensated for with some help-the key is getting the right kind of help  say researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital. The researchers found that children with post-traumatic stress disorder and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol were likely to experience a decrease in the size of the hippocampus – a brain structure important in memory processing and emotion. I am sure there are even more subtle biophysiological changes in many parts of the brain as well as the load the cns responds to-for some a retared cns may result or a numbing and for others a cns that is hyperactive Although similar effects have been seen in animal studies, this is the first time the findings have been replicated in children. How did  they get away with traumatizing the children? That’s a joke  The researchers focused on kids in extreme situations to better understand how stress affects brain development. "We’re not talking about the stress of doing your homework You should have seen my homework  or fighting with your dad," should have seen my dad  said Packard Children’s child psychiatrist Victor Carrion, MD. "We’re talking about traumatic stress. These kids feel like they’re stuck in the middle of a street with a truck barreling down at them." you mean a state of ontological anxiety-the stuff we all have here Carrion, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the medical school and director of Stanford’s early life stress research program, and his collaborators speculate that cognitive deficits arising from stress hormones interfere with psychiatric therapy and prolong symptoms. It is those very cognitive deficits that can be used as compensatroy mechanisms for getting past the nasty conditoned responses ingrained in the brains of these kids and in later life adults The children in the study were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a result of undergoing physical, emotional or sexual abuse, witnessing violence or experiencing lasting separation and loss. This type of developmental trauma often impairs the child’s ability to reach social, emotional and academic milestones. They function as if damaged. "We’d really like to understand why some children are more resilient than others, it is the way they are hardwired and how they use cognitive structure to challenge the way they respond and perceive the world. Much has been written about survivors of great stress like in Nazi Germany or other prisoner of war situations or greately repressed social structures  and what the long-term effects of extreme stress are," we show the results said Carrion, who is the first author of the research, to be published in the March issue of Pediatrics. "We know, for example, that these children are at higher risk of developing depression and/or anxiety as adults." …cont. http://www.thinkanxiety.org/article-2996101.htm Fantastic article on the subject in the March 2002 issue of Scientific American magazine, _Scars that Won’t Heal:  The Neurobiology of Child Abuse_, by Martin H. Teicher.  Worth checking out for anyone with interest in the topic.  If anyone is interested in reading it, and can’t access it through their library or other sources, shoot me an E, and I’ll hook you up with it. if you can post a link I would appreciate it tanks Jessica —

LM- It took a bit of digging but I found the info on a psych 101 prof’s website.  http://mysite.verizon.net/res0im1v/donettesteelepsychology/id14.html Jessica — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

thinkanxiety.org – Severe stress can damage a child’s brain,

damage seem sto imply a permanent state of being-this is untrue-certain changes obviously happen, but they can be reversed or at least compensated for with some help-the key is getting the right kind of help  say researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital. The researchers found that children with post-traumatic stress disorder and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol were likely to experience a decrease in the size of the hippocampus – a brain structure important in memory processing and emotion.

I am sure there are even more subtle biophysiological changes in many parts of the brain as well as the load the cns responds to-for some a retared cns may result or a numbing and for others a cns that is hyperactive Although similar effects have been seen in animal studies, this is the first time the findings have been replicated in children.

How did  they get away with traumatizing the children? That’s a joke  The researchers focused on kids in extreme situations to better understand how stress affects brain development. "We’re not talking about the stress of doing your homework

You should have seen my homework  or fighting with your dad,"

should have seen my dad  said Packard Children’s child psychiatrist Victor Carrion, MD. "We’re talking about traumatic stress. These kids feel like they’re stuck in the middle of a street with a truck barreling down at them."

you mean a state of ontological anxiety-the stuff we all have here Carrion, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the medical school and director of Stanford’s early life stress research program, and his collaborators speculate that cognitive deficits arising from stress hormones interfere with psychiatric therapy and prolong symptoms.

It is those very cognitive deficits that can be used as compensatroy mechanisms for getting past the nasty conditoned responses ingrained in the brains of these kids and in later life adults The children in the study were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a result of undergoing physical, emotional or sexual abuse, witnessing violence or experiencing lasting separation and loss. This type of developmental trauma often impairs the child’s ability to reach social, emotional and academic milestones.

They function as if damaged. "We’d really like to understand why some children are more resilient than others,

it is the way they are hardwired and how they use cognitive structure to challenge the way they respond and perceive the world. Much has been written about survivors of great stress like in Nazi Germany or other prisoner of war situations or greately repressed social structures  and what the long-term effects of extreme stress are," we show the results said Carrion, who is the first author of the research, to be published in the March issue of Pediatrics. "We know, for example, that these children are at higher risk of developing depression and/or anxiety as adults." …cont. http://www.thinkanxiety.org/article-2996101.htm Fantastic article on the subject in the March 2002 issue of Scientific American magazine, _Scars that Won’t Heal:  The Neurobiology of Child Abuse_, by Martin H. Teicher.  Worth checking out for anyone with interest in the topic.  If anyone is interested in reading it, and can’t access it through their library or other sources, shoot me an E, and I’ll hook you up with it.

if you can post a link I would appreciate it tanks Jessica

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thinkanxiety.org – Severe stress can damage a child’s brain, damage seem sto imply a permanent state of being-this is untrue-certain changes obviously happen, but they can be reversed or at least compensated for with some help-the key is getting the right kind of help  say researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital. The researchers found that children with post-traumatic stress disorder and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol were likely to experience a decrease in the size of the hippocampus – a brain structure important in memory processing and emotion. I am sure there are even more subtle biophysiological changes in many parts of the brain as well as the load the cns responds to-for some a retared cns may result or a numbing and for others a cns that is hyperactive Although similar effects have been seen in animal studies, this is the first time the findings have been replicated in children. How did  they get away with traumatizing the children? That’s a joke  The researchers focused on kids in extreme situations to better understand how stress affects brain development. "We’re not talking about the stress of doing your homework You should have seen my homework  or fighting with your dad," should have seen my dad  said Packard Children’s child psychiatrist Victor Carrion, MD. "We’re talking about traumatic stress. These kids feel like they’re stuck in the middle of a street with a truck barreling down at them." you mean a state of ontological anxiety-the stuff we all have here Carrion, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the medical school and director of Stanford’s early life stress research program, and his collaborators speculate that cognitive deficits arising from stress hormones interfere with psychiatric therapy and prolong symptoms. It is those very cognitive deficits that can be used as compensatroy mechanisms for getting past the nasty conditoned responses ingrained in the brains of these kids and in later life adults The children in the study were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a result of undergoing physical, emotional or sexual abuse, witnessing violence or experiencing lasting separation and loss. This type of developmental trauma often impairs the child’s ability to reach social, emotional and academic milestones. They function as if damaged. "We’d really like to understand why some children are more resilient than others, it is the way they are hardwired and how they use cognitive structure to challenge the way they respond and perceive the world. Much has been written about survivors of great stress like in Nazi Germany or other prisoner of war situations or greately repressed social structures  and what the long-term effects of extreme stress are," we show the results said Carrion, who is the first author of the research, to be published in the March issue of Pediatrics. "We know, for example, that these children are at higher risk of developing depression and/or anxiety as adults." …cont. http://www.thinkanxiety.org/article-2996101.htm Fantastic article on the subject in the March 2002 issue of Scientific American magazine, _Scars that Won’t Heal:  The Neurobiology of Child Abuse_, by Martin H. Teicher.  Worth checking out for anyone with interest in the topic.  If anyone is interested in reading it, and can’t access it through their library or other sources, shoot me an E, and I’ll hook you up with it. if you can post a link I would appreciate it tanks Jessica — LM- It took a bit of digging but I found the info on a psych 101 prof’s website.  http://mysite.verizon.net/res0im1v/donettesteelepsychology/id14.html Jessica

Thank you I know Bob pretty well and know this study -the author of the article Teicher makes some very astute obseravtions about the physiology but comes to conclusions regarding the etiology or "cause" of things by faulty reasoning. He asserts that many of those with personality disorders like borderline suffered at the hands of abuse and then developed brain impairments in the limbic and hypothalmic regions of their brains as well as (he  ties this in to Davies’ study as some body of proof to help substantiate his assertion, as well as some other studies that help support his thesis) but, and this but is critical-many, many, many, people who suffer from personality disorders did not suffer environmental abuse or parental abuse-some did-and  of those who  did, the ones who induced the suffering also had personality disorders-ergo- what came first–the developmental creation of limbic abnormality or the genetic creation of same? I have found that most personality disordered individuals had strong familial connections with other family members that had the  same or similar disorders. I also have found that many people who suffer recitivistic or resistant anxiety disorders and depressive disorders to have some fairly potent personality or axis issues as well, and few had childhood trauma-some did of course. Scientists and writers want desperately to find a "magic moment of disease onset" that one strikingspark that igbnites the flame that begins the genesis towards the cascade of illness-the whole field of genetics is devoted to doing this-it may prove of great benefit, or it may, and most likely will, show a route of one possibility-not THE route… I would also postulate that many of those who show limbic abnormality when given adequate levels of cognitive therapy can change the chemical and structural nature of these same abnormalities-some cannot, some can make moderate changes-but change can occur that may refute one notion-that the damage that is seen ir indeed "damage" it may very well be a compensatory mechanism the brain creates to formulate a more stable internal environment to the external level of stress and dissonance-just like those who induce food deprivation (fancy name for stringent dieting) begin to secrete more estrogen-build subcutaneous fat levels, stave off a state of biological starvation etc.. maybe this is a faulty analagy, but my point is —-all may not be as it seems, and conclusions of this magnitude, unless predicated with a great big "maybe" can only be seen as an interesting idea-not an epiphany. The real epiphany is the human brain-the human species is capable of withstanding enormous levels of trauma and continue to grow and develop in healthy ways. After all, panic is traumatic-those who suffer at its hands are traumatized over and over and can still lead fruitful and happy lives-even with a shrunken limbic system and a personality disorder. I don’t like articles that throw the baby out with the bath water and depict a one sided point of view that may create either false hope, or severe pessimism-after all, if the medications we have only really help 40% of those with psychiatric conditions and at reduced percentages of functionality to boot-thinking that ones brain may be faulty, or damaged or diseased can only lead to some pretty nasty self inflicted pity and hopelessness-gee, if only they had better drugs, maybe one day I will feel better-until then I just give up and give into my abnormality.  Trauma is painful and hurts people-it may be an impetus to develop some pretty strong neurotic tendencies and behaviors, it may also through the same process establish brain changes-those changes can be reversed and those neurotic tendencies and behaviors can be modified, to a higher level of functioning, a healthier level…Teicher doesn’t seem to address this. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thinkanxiety.org – Severe stress can damage a child’s brain, say researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital. The researchers found that children with post-traumatic stress disorder and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol were likely to experience a decrease in the size of the hippocampus – a brain structure important in memory processing and emotion. Although similar effects have been seen in animal studies, this is the first time the findings have been replicated in children. The researchers focused on kids in extreme situations to better understand how stress affects brain development. "We’re not talking about the stress of doing your homework or fighting with your dad," said Packard Children’s child psychiatrist Victor Carrion, MD. "We’re talking about traumatic stress. These kids feel like they’re stuck in the middle of a street with a truck barreling down at them." Carrion, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the medical school and director of Stanford’s early life stress research program, and his collaborators speculate that cognitive deficits arising from stress hormones interfere with psychiatric therapy and prolong symptoms. The children in the study were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a result of undergoing physical, emotional or sexual abuse, witnessing violence or experiencing lasting separation and loss. This type of developmental trauma often impairs the child’s ability to reach social, emotional and academic milestones. "We’d really like to understand why some children are more resilient than others, and what the long-term effects of extreme stress are," said Carrion, who is the first author of the research, to be published in the March issue of Pediatrics. "We know, for example, that these children are at higher risk of developing depression and/or anxiety as adults." …cont. http://www.thinkanxiety.org/article-2996101.htm

Fantastic article on the subject in the March 2002 issue of Scientific American magazine, _Scars that Won’t Heal:  The Neurobiology of Child Abuse_, by Martin H. Teicher.  Worth checking out for anyone with interest in the topic.  If anyone is interested in reading it, and can’t access it through their library or other sources, shoot me an E, and I’ll hook you up with it. Jessica — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

http://www.theage.com.au/news/in-depth/primary-blues/2007/03/09/11731… Another view. I have taught resilience. It was working. Meryl

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – thinkanxiety.org – Severe stress can damage a child’s brain, damage seem sto imply a permanent state of being-this is untrue-certain changes obviously happen, but they can be reversed or at least compensated for with some help-the key is getting the right kind of help  say researchers at the Stanford University School of Medicine and Lucile Packard Children’s Hospital. The researchers found that children with post-traumatic stress disorder and high levels of the stress hormone cortisol were likely to experience a decrease in the size of the hippocampus – a brain structure important in memory processing and emotion. I am sure there are even more subtle biophysiological changes in many parts of the brain as well as the load the cns responds to-for some a retared cns may result or a numbing and for others a cns that is hyperactive Although similar effects have been seen in animal studies, this is the first time the findings have been replicated in children. How did  they get away with traumatizing the children? That’s a joke  The researchers focused on kids in extreme situations to better understand how stress affects brain development. "We’re not talking about the stress of doing your homework You should have seen my homework  or fighting with your dad," should have seen my dad  said Packard Children’s child psychiatrist Victor Carrion, MD. "We’re talking about traumatic stress. These kids feel like they’re stuck in the middle of a street with a truck barreling down at them." you mean a state of ontological anxiety-the stuff we all have here Carrion, assistant professor of child and adolescent psychiatry at the medical school and director of Stanford’s early life stress research program, and his collaborators speculate that cognitive deficits arising from stress hormones interfere with psychiatric therapy and prolong symptoms. It is those very cognitive deficits that can be used as compensatroy mechanisms for getting past the nasty conditoned responses ingrained in the brains of these kids and in later life adults The children in the study were suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD, as a result of undergoing physical, emotional or sexual abuse, witnessing violence or experiencing lasting separation and loss. This type of developmental trauma often impairs the child’s ability to reach social, emotional and academic milestones. They function as if damaged. "We’d really like to understand why some children are more resilient than others, it is the way they are hardwired and how they use cognitive structure to challenge the way they respond and perceive the world. Much has been written about survivors of great stress like in Nazi Germany or other prisoner of war situations or greately repressed social structures  and what the long-term effects of extreme stress are," we show the results said Carrion, who is the first author of the research, to be published in the March issue of Pediatrics. "We know, for example, that these children are at higher risk of developing depression and/or anxiety as adults." …cont. http://www.thinkanxiety.org/article-2996101.htm Fantastic article on the subject in the March 2002 issue of Scientific American magazine, _Scars that Won’t Heal:  The Neurobiology of Child Abuse_, by Martin H. Teicher.  Worth checking out for anyone with interest in the topic.  If anyone is interested in reading it, and can’t access it through their library or other sources, shoot me an E, and I’ll hook you up with it. if you can post a link I would appreciate it tanks Jessica — LM- It took a bit of digging but I found the info on a psych 101 prof’s website. http://mysite.verizon.net/res0im1v/donettesteelepsychology/id14.html Jessica Thank you I know Bob pretty well and know this study -the author of the article Teicher makes some very astute obseravtions about the physiology but comes to conclusions regarding the etiology or "cause" of things by faulty reasoning. He asserts that many of those with personality disorders like borderline suffered at the hands of abuse and then developed brain impairments in the limbic and hypothalmic regions of their brains as well as (he  ties this in to Davies’ study as some body of proof to help substantiate his assertion, as well as some other studies that help support his thesis) but, and this but is critical-many, many, many, people who suffer from personality disorders did not suffer environmental abuse or parental abuse-some did-and  of those who  did, the ones who induced the suffering also had personality disorders-ergo- what came first–the developmental creation of limbic abnormality or the genetic creation of same? I have found that most personality disordered individuals had strong familial connections with other family members that had the  same or similar disorders. I also have found that many people who suffer recitivistic or resistant anxiety disorders and depressive disorders to have some fairly potent personality or axis issues as well, and few had childhood trauma-some did of course. Scientists and writers want desperately to find a "magic moment of disease onset" that one strikingspark that igbnites the flame that begins the genesis towards the cascade of illness-the whole field of genetics is devoted to doing this-it may prove of great benefit, or it may, and most likely will, show a route of one possibility-not THE route… I would also postulate that many of those who show limbic abnormality when given adequate levels of cognitive therapy can change the chemical and structural nature of these same abnormalities-some cannot, some can make moderate changes-but change can occur that may refute one notion-that the damage that is seen ir indeed "damage" it may very well be a compensatory mechanism the brain creates to formulate a more stable internal environment to the external level of stress and dissonance-just like those who induce food deprivation (fancy name for stringent dieting) begin to secrete more estrogen-build subcutaneous fat levels, stave off a state of biological starvation etc.. maybe this is a faulty analagy, but my point is —-all may not be as it seems, and conclusions of this magnitude, unless predicated with a great big "maybe" can only be seen as an interesting idea-not an epiphany. The real epiphany is the human brain-the human species is capable of withstanding enormous levels of trauma and continue to grow and develop in healthy ways. After all, panic is traumatic-those who suffer at its hands are traumatized over and over and can still lead fruitful and happy lives-even with a shrunken limbic system and a personality disorder. I don’t like articles that throw the baby out with the bath water and depict a one sided point of view that may create either false hope, or severe pessimism-after all, if the medications we have only really help 40% of those with psychiatric conditions and at reduced percentages of functionality to boot-thinking that ones brain may be faulty, or damaged or diseased can only lead to some pretty nasty self inflicted pity and hopelessness-gee, if only they had better drugs, maybe one day I will feel better-until then I just give up and give into my abnormality.  Trauma is painful and hurts people-it may be an impetus to develop some pretty strong neurotic tendencies and behaviors, it may also through the same process establish brain changes-those changes can be reversed and those neurotic tendencies and behaviors can be modified, to a higher level of functioning, a healthier level…Teicher doesn’t seem to address this. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

Is this just a synonym for GAD?

It’s more of an umbrella term, TJ, for a number of manifestations of anxiety. Oops, I think Jackie has just posted a very thorough answer.  :-) xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Is this just a synonym for GAD? I’ve seen ‘anxiety disorder’ mentioned on many websites as a condition in itself,  but I’m not having much luck finding an ‘official’ definition of it.

The American Psychiatric Association calls mental problems "disorders". I don’t know why they picked that term. They could have called them "messes", as in the "panic mess", or the "compulsive mess". anyway, TJ, you can go to the below website and download the latest clinical guidelines for diagnosis and treatment of panic disorder. http://www.psych.org/psych_pract/treatg/pg/prac_guide.cfm Chip :^) — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

snip: ::Is this just a synonym for GAD? I’ve seen ‘anxiety disorder’

snip: snip: Five major types of anxiety disorders are: Generalized Anxiety Disorder Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) Panic Disorder Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) Social Phobia (or Social Anxiety Disorder)http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/anxietymenu.cfm

Hi Jackie: That was such a great reply.  Also, thanx for the web site. I have a question for you.  Do you think, or have you found information, linking these disorders to a primary source (i.e., chemical imbalance, heredity, etc.?). Thanx -frizz — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::I have a question for you.  Do you think, or have you found ::information, linking these disorders to a primary source (i.e., ::chemical imbalance, heredity, etc.?). http://www.news-medical.net/?id=14544 Hypothetical  explanation  panic  disorder   http://www.gjpsy.uni-goettingen.de/gjp-article-howard.pdf Jackie ~*~"It’s the crazy ones that have all the good pills"~*~   ~~Kim Cattrall — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Is this just a synonym for GAD? I’ve seen ‘anxiety disorder’ mentioned on many websites as a condition in itself,  but I’m not having much luck finding an ‘official’ definition of it. thanks — _TJ_ <TJ_IREL at YAHOO dot IE — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::Is this just a synonym for GAD? I’ve seen ‘anxiety disorder’ ::mentioned on many websites as a condition in itself,  but I’m ::not having much luck finding an ‘official’ definition of it. :: ::thanks Anxiety disorder is a broad term to include GAD, PD, PTSD, OCD and social anxiety. Anxiety Disorders What are Anxiety Disorders? Anxiety is a normal reaction to stress. It helps one deal with a tense situation in the office, study harder for an exam, keep focused on an important speech. In general, it helps one cope. But when anxiety becomes an excessive, irrational dread of everyday situations, it has become a disabling disorder. more Five major types of anxiety disorders are: Generalized Anxiety Disorder Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) Panic Disorder Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) Social Phobia (or Social Anxiety Disorder) http://www.nimh.nih.gov/healthinformation/anxietymenu.cfm Jackie ~*~"It’s the crazy ones that have all the good pills"~*~   ~~Kim Cattrall — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

I’ve had headaches during the last couple of weeks for the first time. However, exercise for thirty minutes on a mountain bike seems to take them completely away for the rest of the day. After I bike, the intensity of the headache increases, but after lying down and relaxing for about ten miniutes, they go away completely. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Poll: Do you have an anxiety disorder and also experience chronic daily headaches?

If I am awake, I have a headache. This has been going on for about 45 years now.  Even the strongest over the counter Aspirin is useless against it.  I just live with it unless migraine kicks in. Reference: Juang KD, Wang SJ, Fuh JL, Lu SR, Su TP (2000), Comorbidity of depressive and anxiety disorders in chronic daily headache and its subtypes. Headache 40: 818-823. http://panicdisorder.about.com/cs/comorbiddisorders/a/headachesstudy.htm Jackie ~*~When in doubt, make a fool of yourself.  There is a microscopically thin line between being brilliantly creative and acting like the most gigantic idiot on earth.  So what the hell, leap~*~

– Ron P Member of the invisible generation — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

If I am awake, I have a headache. This has been going on for about 45 years now.  

My God, Ron … that is awful.  I don’t know how you can stay sane. Headaches seriously deplete me. (Fortunately I’m not a frequent sufferer.) Poor you. I’m really sorry! xxoo Anne — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Anxiety Disorders and HeadachesFrom Cathleen Henning, Your Guide to Panic / Anxiety Disorders. Study shows they frequently go hand-in-hand If you have an anxiety disorder and suffer from daily headaches, you’re not alone. Researchers in Taiwan have found that the majority of people with chronic daily headaches, particularly women, have either anxiety or depressive disorders. The researchers conducted the study because there were few studies on the occurence of psychiatric disorders with chronic daily headaches. The study took place at a headache clinic during the period from November 1998 to December 1999. A neurologist examined the participants and took a thorough headache history. Participants were then interviewed for the diagnosis of anxiety and depressive disorders. These disorders included major depression, dysthymia, panic disorder, generalized anxiety disorder (GAD), obsessive compulsive disorder (OCD), post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), and social anxiety disorder. Of the participants, 79% experienced chronic daily headaches. Chronic daily headaches are those that occur for more than 15 days per month and for more than 4 hours per day if untreated. Of those with chronic daily headaches, the majority experienced either transformed migraines (58%) or chronic tension-type headaches (35%). The remainder experienced other types of daily headaches. The results of the study show a high rate of comorbidity (or co-occurence) of chronic daily headaches and anxiety or depressive disorders: 70% of participants with transformed migraines also had depressive disorders, and 43% had anxiety disorders. 59% of participants with chronic tension-type headaches also had depressive disorders, and 25% had anxiety disorders. More women (67%) than men (36%) with chronic tension-type headaches also had depressive disorders. Additionally, more women (46%) than men (21%) with transformed migraines had anxiety disorders. Of all the disorders, major depression and panic disorder were most likely to co-occur with chronic daily headaches. Half of the participants with chronic daily headaches had depressive disorders and one quarter had panic disorder. The researchers theorize that the co-occurence of chronic daily headaches with panic disorder may result from the relationship of both conditions with serotonergic dysfuntion. Another theory is that because the symptoms of these conditions overlap, diagnosis is easier. The researchers feel that further studies, particularly community-based studies, need to be done. In the meantime, they urge health providers to be alert of depressive and anxiety disorders in their patients with chronic daily headaches. Poll: Do you have an anxiety disorder and also experience chronic daily headaches? Reference: Juang KD, Wang SJ, Fuh JL, Lu SR, Su TP (2000), Comorbidity of depressive and anxiety disorders in chronic daily headache and its subtypes. Headache 40: 818-823.http://panicdisorder.about.com/cs/comorbiddisorders/a/headachesstudy.htm Jackie

I’ve get frequent headaches. I can remember I started getting frequent headaches in high school, possibly earlier than that, and I would take OTC meds for them – my mother told me that she had only had ONE headache during her entire lifetime! I could not believe that.. I don’t think much about mine, I just pop a tylenol, and I’m good to go in about 20 minutes — I’ve had migraines, but they are extremely rare. I may have had  5 in my lifetime – most occurred near the end of my marriage and during my divorce – but regular headaches are just part of my life, I am used to getting them. Sally — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::If I am awake, I have a headache. This has been going on for about 45 years ::now.  Even the strongest over the counter Aspirin is useless against it. I ::just live with it unless migraine kicks in. Dear Ron, What does your doctor say about this? I’m sorry you are made to suffer this way. It really doesn’t seem fair. (((((Ron)))))

I have been to several doctors about this and it seems that I have the choice of being "doped up" or learning to "live with it." For me, learning to live with it is the best choice. Living with my headache doesn’t compare at all to the severity of the pain many ailments give that I can think of. In this regard I consider myself lucky. Many people in this group have it far worse than I do and my heart goes out to them all. — Ron P Member of the invisible generation — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::If I am awake, I have a headache. This has been going on for about 45 years ::now.  Even the strongest over the counter Aspirin is useless against it.  I ::just live with it unless migraine kicks in. Dear Ron, What does your doctor say about this? I’m sorry you are made to suffer this way. It really doesn’t seem fair. (((((Ron)))))  .

Question:

MediciNova Announces Completion of Enrollment in a Phase II/III

Generalized MN-305 is a novel, potent and highly selective serotonin 5-HT(1A) receptor agonist

That sounds similar to BuSpar, which is a partial agonist of the serotonin 1A receptor. Chip — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

MediciNova Announces Completion of Enrollment in a Phase II/III Generalized   SAN DIEGO, Feb. 27 /PRNewswire/ — MediciNova, Inc., a specialty pharmaceutical company that is publicly traded on the Hercules Market of the Osaka Securities Exchange (Code Number: 4875), today announced completion of enrollment in its Phase II/III clinical trial of MN-305 in 416 patients with Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD). "MN-305 may offer effective treatment of GAD without the side effects (e.g., increased risk of suicide, sexual dysfunction, agitation) associated with antidepressants currently used to treat anxiety disorders such as GAD," said Yuichi Iwaki, M.D., Ph.D., Executive Chairman and Acting CEO of MediciNova, Inc. "Completion of enrollment in a large, pivotal-design trial demonstrates MediciNova’s commitment to advancing our clinical programs through at least the proof-of-concept stage and into Phase III clinical testing." In December 2004, MediciNova initiated a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled multi-center Phase II/III clinical trial of MN-305 in GAD patients. Four hundred and sixteen (416) patients have been randomized to receive placebo or one of two flexible dose regimens of MN-305 at 25 clinical sites in the U.S. The results from this trial are expected by the end of 2Q 2006. MN-305 is a novel, potent and highly selective serotonin 5-HT(1A) receptor agonist under development by MediciNova for the treatment of anxiety disorders beginning with GAD. This orally bioavailable compound has shown preliminary evidence of efficacy in animal models of anxiety and in an open-label study conducted in Japan by Mitsubishi Pharma Corporation in a group of patients with a variety of anxiety disorders. MN-305 was well tolerated in previous clinical studies involving over 800 volunteers and patients with either anxiety or mood disorders. GAD is a mental disorder consisting of chronic, excessive worry and fear that seems to have no real cause. This anxiety disorder is characterized by the presence of excessive, uncontrollable anxiety and worry about two or more life circumstances for six months or longer, accompanied by some combination of restlessness, fatigue, muscle tension, irritability, disturbed concentration or sleep, and somatic symptoms. More than 19 million Americans suffer from anxiety disorders: GAD affects about 4 million people, panic disorder about 2.8 million, phobias roughly 3.5 million, obsessive-compulsive disorder 4.2 million and post-traumatic stress disorder about 3.2 million. MediciNova acquired a license to MN-305 from Mitsubishi Pharma Corporation for global markets, with the exception of Japan and other selected Asian countries. The data acquired from Mitsubishi includes extensive preclinical and clinical safety data, including that from full carcinogenicity testing in rodents. About MediciNova MediciNova, Inc. is a publicly traded specialty pharmaceutical company focused on accelerating the global development and commercialization of innovative pharmaceutical products. MediciNova’s pipeline, which includes several compounds in clinical testing, targets a variety of prevalent medical conditions, including cancer, asthma, Generalized Anxiety Disorder, multiple sclerosis, interstitial cystitis, preterm labor and urinary incontinence. For more information on MediciNova, Inc., please visit http://www.medicinova.com/. This press release may contain "forward-looking statements" within the meaning of the Private Securities Litigation Reform Act of 1995. These statements include statements regarding clinical trials supporting efficacy of one of our product candidates as well as the potential novelty of that candidate as a treatment for disease. These statements are based on certain assumptions made by the Company’s management that are believed to be reasonable at the time. Such statements are subject to a number of risks and uncertainties, many of which are beyond the control of the Company, including the results of clinical studies and other risks and uncertainties, including those described in the Company’s filings with the Securities and Exchange Commission. These assumptions, risks and uncertainties could cause the Company’s actual results to differ materially from those implied or expressed by the forward-looking statements. Website: http://www.medicinova.com/ http://sev.prnewswire.com/health-care-hospitals/20060227/LAM033270220… Jackie ~*~Be kind, remember everyone you meet is fighting a hard battle~*~   ~~ T.H. Thompson — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can often be comorbid with other disorders. If you have PTSD and if you are interested in helping further research in this area, I would like your help. I am doing my master’s thesis on PTSD and anger. On my website, www.ptsdsurvey.com you can take a survey about PTSD. This is anonymous, for research purposes only, and backed by my university. It takes about 30 minutes. Thanks for your help in advance. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Dear Group — I have emailed the psychology department at St Johns University to find out if this is legitimate. I’ll let you know what I find out. Deirdre

Post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) can often be comorbid with other disorders. If you have PTSD and if you are interested in helping further research in this area, I would like your help. I am doing my master’s thesis on PTSD and anger. On my website, www.ptsdsurvey.com you can take a survey about PTSD. This is anonymous, for research purposes only, and backed by my university. It takes about 30 minutes. Thanks for your help in advance. — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

– The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

::Dear Group — I have emailed the psychology department at St Johns ::University to find out if this is legitimate. I’ll let you know what I find ::out. Thanks Deirdre! Good thinking Jackie ~*~When you find yourself the victim of other people’s bitterness, ignorance, smallness or insecurities; remember, things could be worse.  You could be them~*~ — The charter is available at: http://readystump.algebra.com/~asapm

Response:

Question:

Charm wrote: > Lucky me. > At least I know what’s wrong with me now. > How do you hurry time and fix it?

Do not make the mistake of rushing. It won’t work.

Response:

paneon on 05/11/2005 12:52 pm wrote: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> A lifetime of abuse, rape, emotional abuse. > Same here. And all I got was a heap of phobia problems, and a shit-load of > body scarring from Hilariously Stupid Suicide Attempt #1(TM). > (Oh yes – and this crappy t-shirt.) >> But recently, Car accident which nearly killed me, Busted my right ankle > and >> left wrist. This left me mildly disabled, but unable to perform my current >> job. Then motorbike accident that busted my knee. A boyfriend that ripped > me >> off and told me a bunch of lies. I believe and trusted him, when I should >> have known better. >> I know that may sounds trivial to some, However, I was a workaholic and a >> perfectionist. > Ditto on the workaholic perfectionist thing. No ditto on the triviality. >> A person can only tolerate so much. > Don’t ‘tolerate’ the past then…  (‘Accept’.) > Just because bad things have happened in the past doesn’t mean they will > continue to happen in the future. > (-paneon)

As long as we can live and learn. Learn to risk assess… I know I often bang on about risk assessing, but it’s worth learning the art/science. I start with the premise "what am I prepared to lose?". If someone then goes off with something I’m prepared to lose, then it’s not really a loss; it’s a planned purchase. [kind of thing].

Response:

Lucky me. At least I know what’s wrong with me now. How do you hurry time and fix it? — Charm

Response:

Charm on 04/11/2005 12:13 pm wrote: > Lucky me. > At least I know what’s wrong with me now. > How do you hurry time and fix it?

So how did you get that then?

Response:

"Charm" (ch…@cyberone.com.au) writes: > Lucky me. > At least I know what’s wrong with me now. > How do you hurry time and fix it?

Sunds lie I happened toget hat one right;-). I oughta know. I am stil coming out of mine:):) Nothing can be done to hurry it, save knowing what it is, and knowign of the various steps one goes through, where oen can know where they are at in the process, and know what will be next, so as to not thin each time there is a new stage thqt they are losing heir mind or soemthing. Given all you went through, you’d be *abnormal* to *not* have post traumatic stress. I find it he normal and healthy rection to some abnormal event or series of events. Again, oen would have to be insane to not have PTS living such things. Hang in there and give Time the time to tke the time it takes…. Besides, it is not as f the progress is only at the end of the process. As much as it might not always feel thsi way, it happens daily. Best of courage, Charm! You’ll pull through. Chloe  >  > —  > Charm  > —

Response:

A lifetime of abuse, rape, emotional abuse. But recently, Car accident which nearly killed me, Busted my right ankle and left wrist. This left me mildly disabled, but unable to perform my current job. Then motorbike accident that busted my knee. A boyfriend that ripped me off and told me a bunch of lies. I believe and trusted him, when I should have known better. I know that may sounds trivial to some, However, I was a workaholic and a perfectionist. A person can only tolerate so much. — Charm "Sklenge" <skle…@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message

news:BF90F41D.D030%sklenge@yahoo.co.uk… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Charm on 04/11/2005 12:13 pm wrote: >> Lucky me. >> At least I know what’s wrong with me now. >> How do you hurry time and fix it? > So how did you get that then?

Response:

Charm wrote: > Lucky me. > At least I know what’s wrong with me now. > How do you hurry time and fix it?

Been there, done that. There is no quick fix, passage of time is part of the solution.

Response:

Charm wrote: > A lifetime of abuse, rape, emotional abuse. > But recently, Car accident which nearly killed me, Busted my right ankle and > left wrist. This left me mildly disabled, but unable to perform my current > job. Then motorbike accident that busted my knee. A boyfriend that ripped me > off and told me a bunch of lies. I believe and trusted him, when I should > have known better. > I know that may sounds trivial to some, However, I was a workaholic and a > perfectionist. > A person can only tolerate so much.

What job did you do?

Response:

> A lifetime of abuse, rape, emotional abuse.

Same here. And all I got was a heap of phobia problems, and a shit-load of body scarring from Hilariously Stupid Suicide Attempt #1(TM). (Oh yes – and this crappy t-shirt.) > But recently, Car accident which nearly killed me, Busted my right ankle and > left wrist. This left me mildly disabled, but unable to perform my current > job. Then motorbike accident that busted my knee. A boyfriend that ripped me > off and told me a bunch of lies. I believe and trusted him, when I should > have known better. > I know that may sounds trivial to some, However, I was a workaholic and a > perfectionist.

Ditto on the workaholic perfectionist thing. No ditto on the triviality. > A person can only tolerate so much.

Don’t ‘tolerate’ the past then…  (‘Accept’.) Just because bad things have happened in the past doesn’t mean they will continue to happen in the future. (-paneon)

Response:

Question:

Inshallah, Islam will reject fanaticism, fantasy, paranoia, terrorism and rise again to those glorious days of intellectual and scientific advance.

Didn’t Muslims invent the Hookah?  Very useful device for smoking a mixture of camel shit, cannabis, and opium. Funny thing, that was their last invention…

Response:

Inshallah, Islam will reject fanaticism, fantasy, paranoia, terrorism and rise again to those glorious days of intellectual and scientific advance.

Response:

…sadly many western children have been sucked into Islam and a early death. http://www.truthandgrace.com/muslimconvert.htm

Response:

SCIENCE IN ISLAM By Paul Lunde Islamic culture was pre-eminently a culture of the book. In the ninth century, the library of the  monasrry of St.Gall was the largest in Europe , it boasted 36 volumes. At the same time, that of- Cordaba- contained 500,000. It took much more than paper to create an intellectual and scientific culture like that of Islamic Spain. Islam which tolerance and encouragement of both secular and religious learning, created the necessary climate for the exchange of ideas. It has been estimated that today there are 250,000 Arabic manuscripts in Western and Eastern libraries, including private collections. Yet in the 10th century private libraries existed which contained as many as 500,000 books. Literally millions of books must have perished, and with them the achievements of a great many scholars and scientists, whose books, had they survived, might have changed the course of history. As it is now a tiny proportion of existing Arabic scientific texts have been studied , and it will take years to form a more exact idea of the contributions of Muslim scientists to history of ideas. http://web.mit.edu/mitmsa/www/NewSite/libstuff/nasr/nasrspeech1.html

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once a ’sweet kid’, now a terror suspect August 12, 2005 – 2:14PM As a youth Mathew Stewart loved surfing and partying. Now he’s suspected of being an al-Qaeda terrorist. Known by his old school friends as a "sweet kid" with a stutter, the former soldier from the Sunshine Coast may be the masked man in the latest al-Qaeda video. The balaclava-clad figure in combat gear and holding an automatic rifle berates western values and calls on Britain and the United States to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stewart, who left the Australian Army psychologically scarred by his service in East Timor, hasn’t been seen by his family for four years. It’s suspected he went to Afghanistan shortly before the September 11 terrorist attacks to train with the al-Qaeda terror network. But his mother Vicki Stewart, who works in the Sunshine Coast property industry, says the man in the video released this week is not her son. A spokesman for Mrs Stewart confirmed the family had been contacted by the Australian Federal Police. "Mrs Stewart had been shown photos, and advised the federal police that it definitely was not Mathew. AdvertisementAdvertisement "The family supports the work done by the federal police and is still grieving over Mathew who disappeared without a trace four years ago." A friend of Mathew Stewart reportedly believes the man in the video released this week resembles and sounds like him. But Stewart’s brother Ryan today dismissed reports that his brother was the terror suspect as "bullshit". Stewart, who would now be 28, had been traumatised by events in East Timor, where he served for six months from 1999. The private with 2RAR regiment was among a group of diggers who discovered the mutilated body of Dutch journalist Sander Thoenes in a Dili street. Stewart spent much of his tour of East Timor under psychiatric care for post traumatic stress disorder. He was also treated on his return from East Timor at the Army’s Gallipoli barracks in Brisbane and was kept on suicide watch at one time before being medically discharged. "In Dili there were dead bodies in the gutters, limbs, people who had been scalped," one former Army colleague said. "At the end of the day we received a grand total of zero counselling." Stewart left the Army aged 25 on July 8, 2001, following four years service. Less than a month later he flew out of Australia bound for Kuala Lumpur and hasn’t been heard of since. A statement issued by Defence Minister Robert Hill and then federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams in 2002 said it was believed Stewart had entered Afghanistan from Iran about August 8, 2001. Stewart attended Immanuel Lutheran College on the Sunshine Coast and he was known as an "quite a sensitive kid" who was an enthusiastic surfer. "He did have a bit of a stutter and he was a late developer, small for his age," one former school friend says. Before joining the Army, Stewart worked in construction and was a regular at nightclubs at beachfront Mooloolaba on the Sunshine Coast. Stewart family spokesman Ron Smith says Mathew Stewart had never shown any interest in Islamic causes.

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Once a ’sweet kid’, now a terror suspect August 12, 2005 – 2:14PM As a youth Mathew Stewart loved surfing and partying. Now he’s suspected of being an al-Qaeda terrorist. Known by his old school friends as a "sweet kid" with a stutter, the former soldier from the Sunshine Coast may be the masked man in the latest al-Qaeda video. The balaclava-clad figure in combat gear and holding an automatic rifle berates western values and calls on Britain and the United States to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stewart, who left the Australian Army psychologically scarred by his service in East Timor, hasn’t been seen by his family for four years. It’s suspected he went to Afghanistan shortly before the September 11 terrorist attacks to train with the al-Qaeda terror network. But his mother Vicki Stewart, who works in the Sunshine Coast property industry, says the man in the video released this week is not her son. A spokesman for Mrs Stewart confirmed the family had been contacted by the Australian Federal Police. "Mrs Stewart had been shown photos, and advised the federal police that it definitely was not Mathew. AdvertisementAdvertisement "The family supports the work done by the federal police and is still grieving over Mathew who disappeared without a trace four years ago." A friend of Mathew Stewart reportedly believes the man in the video released this week resembles and sounds like him. But Stewart’s brother Ryan today dismissed reports that his brother was the terror suspect as "bullshit". Stewart, who would now be 28, had been traumatised by events in East Timor, where he served for six months from 1999. The private with 2RAR regiment was among a group of diggers who discovered the mutilated body of Dutch journalist Sander Thoenes in a Dili street. Stewart spent much of his tour of East Timor under psychiatric care for post traumatic stress disorder.

If this is true it’s a very sad case of Stockholm syndrome. The guy was traumatized by killing in East Timor (which it has to be said was in part a quasi-jihad against "rebellious infidels" by a Muslim army), then he follows the path of jihadis – the people who traumatized him. TEXT: Bin Laden statement broadcast on al-Jazeera TV [excerpt via Reuters]: "Look at the position of the Europeans and the United Nations towards events in Indonesia, when they moved to divide the biggest Muslim country in terms of population. This criminal Kofi Annan speaks publicly and puts pressure on the government of Indonesia, saying it had 24 hours to let go of East Timor. We should not look at this event as separate. It is part of a long chain of plots. It is a war of annihilation." * * * * * * * * * * * * New Zealand troops in East Timor told to stay alert WELLINGTON, Nov 5 (AFP) – Prime Minister Helen Clark Monday urged New Zealand soldiers in East Timor "to stay on alert" after threats from suspected terrorist mastermind Osama bin Laden to target United Nations peacekeepers there. http://www.etan.org/et2001c/november/04-10/05newz.htm – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – He was also treated on his return from East Timor at the Army’s Gallipoli barracks in Brisbane and was kept on suicide watch at one time before being medically discharged. "In Dili there were dead bodies in the gutters, limbs, people who had been scalped," one former Army colleague said. "At the end of the day we received a grand total of zero counselling." Stewart left the Army aged 25 on July 8, 2001, following four years service. Less than a month later he flew out of Australia bound for Kuala Lumpur and hasn’t been heard of since. A statement issued by Defence Minister Robert Hill and then federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams in 2002 said it was believed Stewart had entered Afghanistan from Iran about August 8, 2001. Stewart attended Immanuel Lutheran College on the Sunshine Coast and he was known as an "quite a sensitive kid" who was an enthusiastic surfer. "He did have a bit of a stutter and he was a late developer, small for his age," one former school friend says. Before joining the Army, Stewart worked in construction and was a regular at nightclubs at beachfront Mooloolaba on the Sunshine Coast. Stewart family spokesman Ron Smith says Mathew Stewart had never shown any interest in Islamic causes.

Response:

Once a ’sweet kid’, now a terror suspect August 12, 2005 – 2:14PM As a youth Mathew Stewart loved surfing and partying. Now he’s suspected of being an al-Qaeda terrorist. Known by his old school friends as a "sweet kid" with a stutter, the former soldier from the Sunshine Coast may be the masked man in the latest al-Qaeda video. The balaclava-clad figure in combat gear and holding an automatic rifle berates western values and calls on Britain and the United States to withdraw troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Stewart, who left the Australian Army psychologically scarred by his service in East Timor, hasn’t been seen by his family for four years. It’s suspected he went to Afghanistan shortly before the September 11 terrorist attacks to train with the al-Qaeda terror network. But his mother Vicki Stewart, who works in the Sunshine Coast property industry, says the man in the video released this week is not her son. A spokesman for Mrs Stewart confirmed the family had been contacted by the Australian Federal Police. "Mrs Stewart had been shown photos, and advised the federal police that it definitely was not Mathew. AdvertisementAdvertisement "The family supports the work done by the federal police and is still grieving over Mathew who disappeared without a trace four years ago." A friend of Mathew Stewart reportedly believes the man in the video released this week resembles and sounds like him. But Stewart’s brother Ryan today dismissed reports that his brother was the terror suspect as "bullshit". Stewart, who would now be 28, had been traumatised by events in East Timor, where he served for six months from 1999. The private with 2RAR regiment was among a group of diggers who discovered the mutilated body of Dutch journalist Sander Thoenes in a Dili street. Stewart spent much of his tour of East Timor under psychiatric care for post traumatic stress disorder. He was also treated on his return from East Timor at the Army’s Gallipoli barracks in Brisbane and was kept on suicide watch at one time before being medically discharged. "In Dili there were dead bodies in the gutters, limbs, people who had been scalped," one former Army colleague said. "At the end of the day we received a grand total of zero counselling." Stewart left the Army aged 25 on July 8, 2001, following four years service. Less than a month later he flew out of Australia bound for Kuala Lumpur and hasn’t been heard of since. A statement issued by Defence Minister Robert Hill and then federal Attorney-General Daryl Williams in 2002 said it was believed Stewart had entered Afghanistan from Iran about August 8, 2001. Stewart attended Immanuel Lutheran College on the Sunshine Coast and he was known as an "quite a sensitive kid" who was an enthusiastic surfer. "He did have a bit of a stutter and he was a late developer, small for his age," one former school friend says. Before joining the Army, Stewart worked in construction and was a regular at nightclubs at beachfront Mooloolaba on the Sunshine Coast. Stewart family spokesman Ron Smith says Mathew Stewart had never shown any interest in Islamic causes.

Response:

Question:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bobb wrote: > "WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message > news:XE99e.1351$NU4.1096@attbi_s22… > > "bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message > > news:mZGdnbfNOe6BnfjfRVn-3g@comcast.com… > >> "WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message > >> news:N_w8e.22319$xL4.20745@attbi_s72… > >>> "bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message > >>> news:erudnRSLCtZZnPzfRVn-sw@comcast.com… > >>>> What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon > >>>> to become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?  Seems to me > >>>> most families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year > >>>> old "adult" children, on the street the day after his birthday. Or cut > >>>> off his allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals. > >>> ‘Most’, is that like ‘many’? > >>> And you better bet your ass that ’some’ parents do! > >>> As a matter of fact, I was one of them. > >>>> The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal > >>>> responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.  If fact, it > >>>> used to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t > >>>> even finished high school at age 18… but.. so what.  CPS rids itself > >>>> of another problem and  seeks  other little kids… some like a > >>>> predator, wouldn’t you say? > >>> So what you are saying is that DFS seeks out kids to keep in foster care > >>> until they turn 18. then they dump their asses out on the street with no > >>> money, no feed and nowhere to go, and then look for more kids to keep > >>> for the funding until they turn 18, rolling over and over again? > >>> Absurd. > >> If that seems harsh… just think about it.  Isn’t that exactly what CPS > >> does? > >> It’s a self-serving organization.  They do a great job in worse case > >> situations > >> but please recognize those are the costly ones… and because of the few > >> numbers in need… a massive budget would be impossible to justify. > > So you are saying that the MAJORITY of kids within families that have DFS > > involvement have cases open simply to justify the funding for children who > > are severely abused? > If one kid in the family  is ’severely’ abused or not.. the rest of the kids > are > removed as well.

That’s correct. > Not for any danger but as a matter of convenience.

That’s a lie. It’s for the safety of the children and the integrety of witness for the investigation. Where did you get the idea the if a family is being investigated for abuse or neglect CPS knows by magic the other kids aren’t being abused or neglected? > So… for each kid removed "justifiably’  one,  or two, or more, are removed > without reason and just cause.

Safety and investigation evidence and witness testimony integrety. And often what is found is that yes, indeed, other children than the child the abuse or neglect call was made on was in fact previously abused or neglected, and not found out at that time in the past. And indeed, very often the allegation is not on the one child, but in fact the caller often is concerned about other children in the family as well. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Boy, that ‘industry’ sure needs an overhaul…that’s just not cost > > effective, and any business owner will tell you that. > >> Even Kane falls victim to their bull.  He thinks every kid removed from > >> home is in need of services while forgetting the kids in foster care did > >> nothing wrong.  It was the parents who messed up. Some left their > >> kids alone too long… running to the quick mart, or having a clutter > >> house, > >> or engaged in very subjective behaviors CPS does not approve of. > >> Many kid would do better if not for current interventions when it means > >> disrupting entire families. > > Many again? > > How many is ‘many’? > Many… hmmm…  as opposed to ‘most’?  How about anyone, regardless of > numbers, who would do better without state intervention.

And proof they would have done better if they come from a household with an abuser in it? > Someone bantered > about the number of 96,000… and I would suppose that would be ‘many’, > right?

Yep. That would be many. Problem is that number did not pertain to those proven to have not been victims. And children that witness abuse are victimized by seeing it happen to their brothers and sisters. They don’t come into the data count, however. Or do you think a child that witnesses a parent batter a child, or otherwise injure them is free of psychological injury themselves? Imagine yourself trapped in a household this way. You, a child, who my NOT leave…and your daddy is fucking your sister regularly. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >>>> Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them > >>>> with ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an > >>>> allowance, clothes, and the promise of a better life without their > >>>> interferring parents.  Sound familiar? > >>> It does NOT sound familiar to me. > >>> My daughter was one of those beyond parental control kids. > >>> She made a file folder full of DFS complaints against me for almost five > >>> years. > >>> My goal in life for those five years was to get her in control. > >>> DFS never once told that child that she could have a better life without > >>> interfering parents etc etc. > >>> What they told her was that *I* was the mom, and *SHE* was the kid and > >>> she would do as I told her or suffer her consequences. > >> Trouble, was… there were no consequences.  No one followed though. Idle > >> threats. The kid was smarter than those around her. > > You think so?  Exactly how would you know? > > Are you sure that no one followed through? > > Are you sure that she was smarter than everyone else? > > I can betcha 9 months in Delmina Wood says different. > >>> She once had a friend make a report that I had hit her with a broom > >>> When the worker arrived to investigate she asked if I had hit her with > >>> the broom. > >>> I said that I had, that I was sweeping the floor, and that she had > >>> called me a ‘bitch’ and when she did I tapped he on the leg with the > >>> broom handle. > >>> The worker asked to see her leg, did not see a mark, because I had not > >>> hit her hard at all, just TAPPED her to get her attention. > >>> And then she proceeded to give my daughter an hour long speech about how > >>> fortunate she was to live in a nice home, to have food on the table, and > >>> parents who cared enough about her to go out hunting for her all night > >>> when she didn’t come home on time, etc. > >>> I don’t recall the worker mentioning a ‘better’ place to live. > >>>> It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place > >>>> them in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ > >>>> being sexually abused.  Actually, the risk so often mentioned by > >>>> CPS… rises to the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent. > >>> Ahhhh, yes, first teachers are fulfilling the fantasies of young boys by > >>> having sex with them and should be thanked, then sexual abuse is not > >>> sexual abuse nor is rape rape, and now homosexuals are potentially > >>> (more) a risk for abuse than anyone else. > >>> Please, do show me where DFS says that children of homosexual homes are > >>> at more risk of abuse. > >>> I have never seen such a thing. > >> Do you really think CPS would admit it?  Hahahaha… of course not. It > >> wouldn’t be politicallly correct, would it?  Picking on those poor queer > >> people… we just can’t have that. > > DFS has never admitted it?  Even hinted at it? > > Are you sure it’s not just some kind of DFS ‘witch hunt’? > > Are you sure the media isn’t out for blood and the citizens of this > > country aren’t looking for anyone to blame but themselves? > >>>> If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child > >>>> endangerment, neglect, and abuse. > >>> And here I can agree with you. > >>> At time the actions of DFS, and even doctors and hospitals and > >>> therapists (mandated reporters) mimics the same behaviors that would > >>> warrant investigation of a parent. > >>> Fired one thrapist for behaviors that would have gotten my ass nailed, > >>> and threatened the whole pediatric staff at a local hospital with > >>> lawsuit for behaviors that would have gotten me founded by DFS for > >>> abuse, or at the least, neglect. > >>> But exactly what does that have to do with it? > >>> Does DFS charge parents who put out the 18 year old kid and refuse to > >>> take care of them? > >>> I highly doubt it Bob…show me, I’m from Missouri.  Unless that child > >>> is mentally or physically unable to care for themselves…then no, prove > >>> it. > >>> Does DFs file against a parent who allows a child, for whatever reason, > >>> to live with a homosexual aunt or uncle or cousin for ‘risk of harm’? > >>> Hell no, if they do you show me where it’s happened.  I KNOW that’s a > >>> lie. > >> Hmmm…. CPS will place a child in the care of a homosexual aunt, uncle, > >> or > >> stranger… that is true… but not with anyone on the sex register list. > > Would you? > Yep.

With a heterosexual someone in the sex register? Oh, goodie for you. But not with a homosexual who is NOT in the sex register? That’s quaint. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> >> Even > >> the 19 year old who had sex with his 16 year old girl friend. > > Lie.  My newphew, Robert, was in the care of my father and step mother for > > a few years. > > My father has been convicted of statutory rape. > > He was exactly 19, had sex with his 16 year old GF, got her pregnant, her > > daddy got mad, filed a police report against my father, (the GF was my

… read more »

Response:

"WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message

news:XE99e.1351$NU4.1096@attbi_s22… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message > news:mZGdnbfNOe6BnfjfRVn-3g@comcast.com… >> "WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message >> news:N_w8e.22319$xL4.20745@attbi_s72… >>> "bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message >>> news:erudnRSLCtZZnPzfRVn-sw@comcast.com… >>>> What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon >>>> to become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?  Seems to me >>>> most families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year >>>> old "adult" children, on the street the day after his birthday.  Or cut >>>> off his allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals. >>> ‘Most’, is that like ‘many’? >>> And you better bet your ass that ’some’ parents do! >>> As a matter of fact, I was one of them. >>>> The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal >>>> responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.  If fact, it >>>> used to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t >>>> even finished high school at age 18… but.. so what.  CPS rids itself >>>> of another problem and  seeks  other little kids… some like a >>>> predator, wouldn’t you say? >>> So what you are saying is that DFS seeks out kids to keep in foster care >>> until they turn 18. then they dump their asses out on the street with no >>> money, no feed and nowhere to go, and then look for more kids to keep >>> for the funding until they turn 18, rolling over and over again? >>> Absurd. >> If that seems harsh… just think about it.  Isn’t that exactly what CPS >> does? >> It’s a self-serving organization.  They do a great job in worse case >> situations >> but please recognize those are the costly ones… and because of the few >> numbers in need… a massive budget would be impossible to justify. > So you are saying that the MAJORITY of kids within families that have DFS > involvement have cases open simply to justify the funding for children who > are severely abused?

If one kid in the family  is ’severely’ abused or not.. the rest of the kids are removed as well. Not for any danger but as a matter of convenience. So… for each kid removed "justifiably’  one,  or two, or more, are removed without reason and just cause. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Boy, that ‘industry’ sure needs an overhaul…that’s just not cost > effective, and any business owner will tell you that. >> Even Kane falls victim to their bull.  He thinks every kid removed from >> home is in need of services while forgetting the kids in foster care did >> nothing wrong.  It was the parents who messed up. Some left their >> kids alone too long… running to the quick mart, or having a clutter >> house, >> or engaged in very subjective behaviors CPS does not approve of. >> Many kid would do better if not for current interventions when it means >> disrupting entire families. > Many again? > How many is ‘many’?

Many… hmmm…  as opposed to ‘most’?  How about anyone, regardless of numbers, who would do better without state intervention. Someone bantered about the number of 96,000… and I would suppose that would be ‘many’, right? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>>> Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them >>>> with ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an >>>> allowance, clothes, and the promise of a better life without their >>>> interferring parents.  Sound familiar? >>> It does NOT sound familiar to me. >>> My daughter was one of those beyond parental control kids. >>> She made a file folder full of DFS complaints against me for almost five >>> years. >>> My goal in life for those five years was to get her in control. >>> DFS never once told that child that she could have a better life without >>> interfering parents etc etc. >>> What they told her was that *I* was the mom, and *SHE* was the kid and >>> she would do as I told her or suffer her consequences. >> Trouble, was… there were no consequences.  No one followed though. Idle >> threats. The kid was smarter than those around her. > You think so?  Exactly how would you know? > Are you sure that no one followed through? > Are you sure that she was smarter than everyone else? > I can betcha 9 months in Delmina Wood says different. >>> She once had a friend make a report that I had hit her with a broom >>> When the worker arrived to investigate she asked if I had hit her with >>> the broom. >>> I said that I had, that I was sweeping the floor, and that she had >>> called me a ‘bitch’ and when she did I tapped he on the leg with the >>> broom handle. >>> The worker asked to see her leg, did not see a mark, because I had not >>> hit her hard at all, just TAPPED her to get her attention. >>> And then she proceeded to give my daughter an hour long speech about how >>> fortunate she was to live in a nice home, to have food on the table, and >>> parents who cared enough about her to go out hunting for her all night >>> when she didn’t come home on time, etc. >>> I don’t recall the worker mentioning a ‘better’ place to live. >>>> It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place >>>> them in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ >>>> being sexually abused.  Actually, the risk so often mentioned  by >>>> CPS… rises to the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent. >>> Ahhhh, yes, first teachers are fulfilling the fantasies of young boys by >>> having sex with them and should be thanked, then sexual abuse is not >>> sexual abuse nor is rape rape, and now homosexuals are potentially >>> (more) a risk for abuse than anyone else. >>> Please, do show me where DFS says that children of homosexual homes are >>> at more risk of abuse. >>> I have never seen such a thing. >> Do you really think CPS would admit it?  Hahahaha… of course not. It >> wouldn’t be politicallly correct, would it?  Picking on those poor queer >> people… we just can’t have that. > DFS has never admitted it?  Even hinted at it? > Are you sure it’s not just some kind of DFS ‘witch hunt’? > Are you sure the media isn’t out for blood and the citizens of this > country aren’t looking for anyone to blame but themselves? >>>> If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child >>>> endangerment, neglect, and abuse. >>> And here I can agree with you. >>> At time the actions of DFS, and even doctors and hospitals and >>> therapists (mandated reporters) mimics the same behaviors that would >>> warrant investigation of a parent. >>> Fired one thrapist for behaviors that would have gotten my ass nailed, >>> and threatened the whole pediatric staff at a local hospital with >>> lawsuit for behaviors that would have gotten me founded by DFS for >>> abuse, or at the least, neglect. >>> But exactly what does that have to do with it? >>> Does DFS charge parents who put out the 18 year old kid and refuse to >>> take care of them? >>> I highly doubt it Bob…show me, I’m from Missouri.  Unless that child >>> is mentally or physically unable to care for themselves…then no, prove >>> it. >>> Does DFs file against a parent who allows a child, for whatever reason, >>> to live with a homosexual aunt or uncle or cousin for ‘risk of harm’? >>> Hell no, if they do you show me where it’s happened.  I KNOW that’s a >>> lie. >> Hmmm…. CPS will place a child in the care of a homosexual aunt, uncle, >> or >> stranger… that is true… but not with anyone on the sex register list. > Would you?

Yep. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Even >> the 19 year old who had sex with his 16 year old girl friend. > Lie.  My newphew, Robert, was in the care of my father and step mother for > a few years. > My father has been convicted of statutory rape. > He was exactly 19, had sex with his 16 year old GF, got her pregnant, her > daddy got mad, filed a police report against my father, (the GF was my > step mother whom my father married) and the rest is history. > And yes, DFS KNEW that he had the charge and was convicted. > .. or even the >> nine year >> old who was found play doctor and labeled as a predator.  In today’s age, >> I >> think any homosexual who even looks at a child wrong is asking to be put >> on someone’s list > Yeah, a list.  Like the posts in this very NG about homosexuals who > foster? > ….  hmmm… according to Kane… that could include >> heterosexuals, >> as well.  We gotta watch out for those who truely care for kids.. .they >> are probably >> grooming them. > Are you denying that it happens? > Are you denying that people who molest and sexually abuse chidlren exist? > Are you denying that there are certain behaviors that could indicate who > is abusing or molesting children?

It’s not about denying anything.. but the numbers certainly do not warrant the out-rage, costs, or attention.  Out of 300 million people, 500,00 are registered sex offenders… of all sorts… and most or not violent sexual incidents, either.  There are ‘career’ criminal of every discrption… paid killers, life-time burglars and theives, con-men, and embezzlers… yet they get nary a spot in the media.  Sex sells… that’s what it’s all about.  It’s like the accident along side the road…everyone has to slow down and ’see’ what happened.  Me. I speed up to make up for lost time. I ain’t got time for the trivial. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Let me tell you a story about a nice family guy. > He was respectedi n his community. > He was dedicated to his family. > He spent his free time working with a well known social organization, he > was active in church, and he did a great deal community service. > He acted as entertainer for kids at social events, and even visited local > hospitals to

… read more »

Response:

"bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message

news:mZGdnbfNOe6BnfjfRVn-3g@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message > news:N_w8e.22319$xL4.20745@attbi_s72… >> "bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message >> news:erudnRSLCtZZnPzfRVn-sw@comcast.com… >>> What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon to >>> become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?  Seems to me most >>> families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year old >>> "adult" children, on the street the day after his birthday.  Or cut off >>> his allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals. >> ‘Most’, is that like ‘many’? >> And you better bet your ass that ’some’ parents do! >> As a matter of fact, I was one of them. >>> The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal >>> responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.  If fact, it >>> used to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t even >>> finished high school at age 18… but.. so what.  CPS rids itself of >>> another problem and  seeks  other little kids… some like a predator, >>> wouldn’t you say? >> So what you are saying is that DFS seeks out kids to keep in foster care >> until they turn 18. then they dump their asses out on the street with no >> money, no feed and nowhere to go, and then look for more kids to keep for >> the funding until they turn 18, rolling over and over again? >> Absurd. > If that seems harsh… just think about it.  Isn’t that exactly what CPS > does? > It’s a self-serving organization.  They do a great job in worse case > situations > but please recognize those are the costly ones… and because of the few > numbers in need… a massive budget would be impossible to justify.

So you are saying that the MAJORITY of kids within families that have DFS involvement have cases open simply to justify the funding for children who are severely abused? Boy, that ‘industry’ sure needs an overhaul…that’s just not cost effective, and any business owner will tell you that. > Even Kane falls victim to their bull.  He thinks every kid removed from > home is in need of services while forgetting the kids in foster care did > nothing wrong.  It was the parents who messed up. Some left their > kids alone too long… running to the quick mart, or having a clutter > house, > or engaged in very subjective behaviors CPS does not approve of. > Many kid would do better if not for current interventions when it means > disrupting entire families.

Many again? How many is ‘many’? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them >>> with ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an >>> allowance, clothes, and the promise of a better life without their >>> interferring parents.  Sound familiar? >> It does NOT sound familiar to me. >> My daughter was one of those beyond parental control kids. >> She made a file folder full of DFS complaints against me for almost five >> years. >> My goal in life for those five years was to get her in control. >> DFS never once told that child that she could have a better life without >> interfering parents etc etc. >> What they told her was that *I* was the mom, and *SHE* was the kid and >> she would do as I told her or suffer her consequences. > Trouble, was… there were no consequences.  No one followed though. Idle > threats. The kid was smarter than those around her.

You think so?  Exactly how would you know? Are you sure that no one followed through? Are you sure that she was smarter than everyone else? I can betcha 9 months in Delmina Wood says different. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> She once had a friend make a report that I had hit her with a broom >> When the worker arrived to investigate she asked if I had hit her with >> the broom. >> I said that I had, that I was sweeping the floor, and that she had called >> me a ‘bitch’ and when she did I tapped he on the leg with the broom >> handle. >> The worker asked to see her leg, did not see a mark, because I had not >> hit her hard at all, just TAPPED her to get her attention. >> And then she proceeded to give my daughter an hour long speech about how >> fortunate she was to live in a nice home, to have food on the table, and >> parents who cared enough about her to go out hunting for her all night >> when she didn’t come home on time, etc. >> I don’t recall the worker mentioning a ‘better’ place to live. >>> It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place >>> them in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ >>> being sexually abused.  Actually, the risk so often mentioned  by >>> CPS… rises to the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent. >> Ahhhh, yes, first teachers are fulfilling the fantasies of young boys by >> having sex with them and should be thanked, then sexual abuse is not >> sexual abuse nor is rape rape, and now homosexuals are potentially (more) >> a risk for abuse than anyone else. >> Please, do show me where DFS says that children of homosexual homes are >> at more risk of abuse. >> I have never seen such a thing. > Do you really think CPS would admit it?  Hahahaha… of course not. It > wouldn’t be politicallly correct, would it?  Picking on those poor queer > people… we just can’t have that.

DFS has never admitted it?  Even hinted at it? Are you sure it’s not just some kind of DFS ‘witch hunt’? Are you sure the media isn’t out for blood and the citizens of this country aren’t looking for anyone to blame but themselves? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->>> If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child >>> endangerment, neglect, and abuse. >> And here I can agree with you. >> At time the actions of DFS, and even doctors and hospitals and therapists >> (mandated reporters) mimics the same behaviors that would warrant >> investigation of a parent. >> Fired one thrapist for behaviors that would have gotten my ass nailed, >> and threatened the whole pediatric staff at a local hospital with lawsuit >> for behaviors that would have gotten me founded by DFS for abuse, or at >> the least, neglect. >> But exactly what does that have to do with it? >> Does DFS charge parents who put out the 18 year old kid and refuse to >> take care of them? >> I highly doubt it Bob…show me, I’m from Missouri.  Unless that child is >> mentally or physically unable to care for themselves…then no, prove it. >> Does DFs file against a parent who allows a child, for whatever reason, >> to live with a homosexual aunt or uncle or cousin for ‘risk of harm’? >> Hell no, if they do you show me where it’s happened.  I KNOW that’s a >> lie. > Hmmm…. CPS will place a child in the care of a homosexual aunt, uncle, > or > stranger… that is true… but not with anyone on the sex register list.

Would you? > Even > the 19 year old who had sex with his 16 year old girl friend.

Lie.  My newphew, Robert, was in the care of my father and step mother for a few years. My father has been convicted of statutory rape. He was exactly 19, had sex with his 16 year old GF, got her pregnant, her daddy got mad, filed a police report against my father, (the GF was my step mother whom my father married) and the rest is history. And yes, DFS KNEW that he had the charge and was convicted. .. or even the > nine year > old who was found play doctor and labeled as a predator.  In today’s age, > I > think any homosexual who even looks at a child wrong is asking to be put > on someone’s list

Yeah, a list.  Like the posts in this very NG about homosexuals who foster? ….  hmmm… according to Kane… that could include > heterosexuals, > as well.  We gotta watch out for those who truely care for kids.. .they > are probably > grooming them.

Are you denying that it happens? Are you denying that people who molest and sexually abuse chidlren exist? Are you denying that there are certain behaviors that could indicate who is abusing or molesting children? Let me tell you a story about a nice family guy. He was respectedi n his community. He was dedicated to his family. He spent his free time working with a well known social organization, he was active in church, and he did a great deal community service. He acted as entertainer for kids at social events, and even visited local hospitals to see sick children, and was the role model of a whole community. It was in the fall of 1978 that this dear man confessed to killing at least 30 young men, mostly teens, and buriying their remains in the crawl space of his home. And there you have the story of John Wayne Gacy. A ‘heterosexual’ man with a wife and kids, who just happened to like to have sex with teen boys and then kill them and bury them under his house.  But while he was not pusuing his interests in sexual assault, he was volunteering to dress up like a clown and entertain sick kids, hosting block parties, etc. Great guy. And there are more of them out there.  Well, I gotta admit… I ‘groomed’ all of my kids. Bought > them > presents, did nice things for them and with them, spent a lotta time with > them. > We  talked about… ohmygosh… sex.   We even slept together (will I go > to > jail with Micheal jackson) on occassion.  Terrible person that I am,  did > much > the same with my neices and nephews, too.  Apply their ‘risk assessment’ > to > me and I’d fail for sure.  I even swatted one young feller up aside the > head… > certainly a jailable offense these days.

One difference, you didn’t molest any of them, did you? And do you really think that no one was looking for signs of that while you were rearing those kids? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> bobb >>> bobb

Response:

"WitchWirsen" <johncwir…@mchsi.com> wrote in message

news:N_w8e.22319$xL4.20745@attbi_s72… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> "bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message > news:erudnRSLCtZZnPzfRVn-sw@comcast.com… >> What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon to >> become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?  Seems to me most >> families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year old >> "adult" children, on the street the day after his birthday.  Or cut off >> his allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals. > ‘Most’, is that like ‘many’? > And you better bet your ass that ’some’ parents do! > As a matter of fact, I was one of them. >> The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal >> responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.  If fact, it >> used to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t even >> finished high school at age 18… but.. so what.  CPS rids itself of >> another problem and  seeks  other little kids… some like a predator, >> wouldn’t you say? > So what you are saying is that DFS seeks out kids to keep in foster care > until they turn 18. then they dump their asses out on the street with no > money, no feed and nowhere to go, and then look for more kids to keep for > the funding until they turn 18, rolling over and over again? > Absurd.

If that seems harsh… just think about it.  Isn’t that exactly what CPS does? It’s a self-serving organization.  They do a great job in worse case situations but please recognize those are the costly ones… and because of the few numbers in need… a massive budget would be impossible to justify. Even Kane falls victim to their bull.  He thinks every kid removed from home is in need of services while forgetting the kids in foster care did nothing wrong.  It was the parents who messed up. Some left their kids alone too long… running to the quick mart, or having a clutter house, or engaged in very subjective behaviors CPS does not approve of. Many kid would do better if not for current interventions when it means disrupting entire families. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them with >> ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an allowance, >> clothes, and the promise of a better life without their interferring >> parents.  Sound familiar? > It does NOT sound familiar to me. > My daughter was one of those beyond parental control kids. > She made a file folder full of DFS complaints against me for almost five > years. > My goal in life for those five years was to get her in control. > DFS never once told that child that she could have a better life without > interfering parents etc etc. > What they told her was that *I* was the mom, and *SHE* was the kid and she > would do as I told her or suffer her consequences.

Trouble, was… there were no consequences.  No one followed though. Idle threats. The kid was smarter than those around her. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> She once had a friend make a report that I had hit her with a broom > When the worker arrived to investigate she asked if I had hit her with the > broom. > I said that I had, that I was sweeping the floor, and that she had called > me a ‘bitch’ and when she did I tapped he on the leg with the broom > handle. > The worker asked to see her leg, did not see a mark, because I had not hit > her hard at all, just TAPPED her to get her attention. > And then she proceeded to give my daughter an hour long speech about how > fortunate she was to live in a nice home, to have food on the table, and > parents who cared enough about her to go out hunting for her all night > when she didn’t come home on time, etc. > I don’t recall the worker mentioning a ‘better’ place to live. >> It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place >> them in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ >> being sexually abused.  Actually, the risk so often mentioned  by  CPS… >> rises to the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent. > Ahhhh, yes, first teachers are fulfilling the fantasies of young boys by > having sex with them and should be thanked, then sexual abuse is not > sexual abuse nor is rape rape, and now homosexuals are potentially (more) > a risk for abuse than anyone else. > Please, do show me where DFS says that children of homosexual homes are at > more risk of abuse. > I have never seen such a thing.

Do you really think CPS would admit it?  Hahahaha… of course not. It wouldn’t be politicallly correct, would it?  Picking on those poor queer people… we just can’t have that. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child >> endangerment, neglect, and abuse. > And here I can agree with you. > At time the actions of DFS, and even doctors and hospitals and therapists > (mandated reporters) mimics the same behaviors that would warrant > investigation of a parent. > Fired one thrapist for behaviors that would have gotten my ass nailed, and > threatened the whole pediatric staff at a local hospital with lawsuit for > behaviors that would have gotten me founded by DFS for abuse, or at the > least, neglect. > But exactly what does that have to do with it? > Does DFS charge parents who put out the 18 year old kid and refuse to take > care of them? > I highly doubt it Bob…show me, I’m from Missouri.  Unless that child is > mentally or physically unable to care for themselves…then no, prove it. > Does DFs file against a parent who allows a child, for whatever reason, to > live with a homosexual aunt or uncle or cousin for ‘risk of harm’?  Hell > no, if they do you show me where it’s happened.  I KNOW that’s a lie.

Hmmm…. CPS will place a child in the care of a homosexual aunt, uncle, or stranger… that is true… but not with anyone on the sex register list. Even the 19 year old who had sex with his 16 year old girl friend… or even the nine year old who was found play doctor and labeled as a predator.  In today’s age, I think any homosexual who even looks at a child wrong is asking to be put on someone’s list….  hmmm… according to Kane… that could include heterosexuals, as well.  We gotta watch out for those who truely care for kids.. .they are probably grooming them.  Well, I gotta admit… I ‘groomed’ all of my kids. Bought them presents, did nice things for them and with them, spent a lotta time with them. We  talked about… ohmygosh… sex.   We even slept together (will I go to jail with Micheal jackson) on occassion.  Terrible person that I am,  did much the same with my neices and nephews, too.  Apply their ‘risk assessment’ to me and I’d fail for sure.  I even swatted one young feller up aside the head… certainly a jailable offense these days. bobb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->> bobb

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -bobb wrote: > <kane_poh…@yahoo.com> wrote in message > news:1113528727.328949.163590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… > > Greegor wrote: > >> Kane excused supervisory chain of command at CPS agencies > >> for not being aware of what takes place on their watch? > > No I didn’t. I pointed out the difficulties involved. Or are you > > suggesting it’s an easy job? And of course mistakes would not happen if > > you were doing it? > >> Any supervisor, and any level, bears a responsibility to > >> supervise the activities under their supervision. > > That’s right. They are not psychics, however. Or is it required that no > > unacceptable events may happen and any supervisor upon whose watch they > > do must be fired? > > I have a hunch we’d run out of supervisors. What do you think? > >> In law suits, the phrases are "knew or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN" > >> and "Failure to supervise". > > Ah, the "should have known." > > You do not understand the implications. > > That would suggest there are events judged by others, as NOT being > > KNOWN because there was no reason the supervisor "SHOULD HAVE KNOWN." > > In other words, it’s been decided that supervisors are not required to > > be psychics. If it was sent to a supervisor in a form that is > > recognized as being a "should have known" say an email, or memo, or in > > conference, then the super should have known. > > If it was being passed around the office as rumor, it may well be the > > supervisor had not way to know for sure. Of if an event was reported > > while the supervisor was away on say vacation, and during the time > > after returning they were going through their correspondance and had > > not come to the item that exploded into a major event, they would not > > be seen as having ‘SHOULD HAVE KNOWN," since it was physically > > impossible to do so. > > The trick you folks like to play doesn’t work if YOU are in the > > hotseat. > > You would scream foul. In fact, geegor, you scream fould even when you > > SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, that is you were told point blank, publically, but > > chose to ignore or go against what you were told. > >> Supervisors who don’t supervise because they think > >> their deliberate ignorance will shield them are getting > >> some REALLY BAD legal advice! > > Nope. It doesn’t work that way. If they were officially and or > > according to standards of practice not informed or couldn’t know, by > > virtue say of extenuating circumstances, like absense, making it > > physically impossible for them to know. Then they weren’t ignorant for > > deliberate intend to be, but because they could NOT know. > Since we all report to someone, I gotta tell ya there are three words > a manager does not want to hear.. "I don’t know".

Oh, even if it’s the truth? > Of course, the > manager must ask all the right questions, he need information to > set the course and to prepare for the unexpected…  speaking of > good manager, of course.

And sometimes the worker simply does not know. > I suspect CPS neither asks the right > questions, don’t know the questions to ask, or just don’t care.

You "suspect" a lot of things, and not just about CPS, that are ridiculous speculative unethical assumptions based on lack of facts, and your enjoyment of remaining ignorant so you can spout such suspicions. When you are told the facts you run from them, as do your cronies. > Go one step futher.. if the caseworkers don’t do the job > properly… it is once again the manager’s problem in that proper > direction and/or direction was not afforded.

It can be. And it can not be. Depends if the worker followed the practices that are considered standard, and any directions of the supervisor. I take it perfection is the only acceptable performance standard. You, of course, always performed your work perfectly. 0;-> > Hmmm… you mentioned  something caseworkers employing use > of a "Psychic hotline" which I would be rather caseworkers are rather > adept.

Actually when I mention that it’s an accusation that one of you twits have demanded workers know things they could not unless they had access to psychic abilities. My you are a dullard. > Let’s see, they accurately predict ‘risk’ of injury, neglect, and > abuse.

No, they do not. Nor do they claim to. > They forsee hazards before they occur and immediately remove > children from ‘harms’ way.

They utilize the same tools that actuaries do…charting of prior events with known outcomes. Would you suggest that actuaries are psychics? In the recent posting on the assessment tool for one state, a tool that was lauded as the best in the nation by the way, they in fact created it out of known factors in cases of abuse and neglect. It’s like reverse engineering. If you know the outcome, which of course you do by picking those cases that do have adverse outcomes, and those that don’t, and looking at the factors leading to both outcomes, it’s not magic or psychic abilities that make outcome predictable. We know for instance, in a city with outdoor private swiming pools that are unfenced, that a predicatable number of drownings of children will take place. It’s like clockwork. All you have to know is the number of such pools and the number of children in a particular age range in the town. The rest is simple math. >   By the time caseworkers advance to manager I’d suggest they should >  have these skills well practiced and should have no trouble recognizing > caseworkers who are not doing their jobs properly. I mean just > ask them… they are professionals, remember?

You’d be surprized to find out that that in fact is a fact. They do generally have the skills, and they do know when a worker isn’t doing their job properly. They apply various techniques, just as in any discipline, to both intervene proactively (training and low numbers of easier caseloads to start with), then provide not only their own supervision, but have experienced long time workers provide oversight and assistance on casework issues. Your determination to remain stupid and ignorant is becoming something of a minor miracle. It’s hard to believe someone can be so dedicated. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22training+the+new%22+%2BCPS+%2… http://tinyurl.com/9s98a > > If you think otherwise, pop up some proof other than innuendo. > > No one, least of all I, is defending a supervisor that KNOWS what is > > going on and yet does not act correctly on that information. You don’t > > read what I write, you just see what you want, instead of what, from my > > statements, you "SHOULD HAVE KNOWN." > They why did you throw in that little tidbit about needing  ’ a psychic hot > line’?

Because your expectation if that they know what is impossible to know. > There is no defense for a manager that fails to keep informed.  There is no > defense for a manager to keep an enept employee in his/her charge.

Of course their is. Not all employees start off perfect in their job performance. Are you this stupid? And managers (we are actually talking her about supervisors, the next layer down, dummy) cannot be completely informed at any given time. Information flow takes time. Even with E-mail. And supervisors have duties other than supervision. They do case review. They serve one in house as well as extra CPS committees and workgroups. There are layers of supervision that include "lead workers," officially designated job titles that include combinations of "trainer, mentor, assistant" to workers. Sometimes even experienced workers are snowed under by unforseen events and these staffers, usually folks close to retirement with a great deal of experience, can step in and help them. They LIVE with the work units and stay familiar with all the cases for just these purposes. > A manager cannot plead ignorance.

Of course they can. You are setting impossible standards that no other discipline demands. If a doctor, for instance, is given a lab report that is inaccurate, and proceeds with TX that injures or kills, who is responsible? The lab tech, of course, even though the boss is the doctor. Only a fool would claim the doctor had to be a psychic. If an event happens that is critical to a case, and the worker does not record it and inform their supervisor, is the supervisor at fault? Tell us you were a perfect worker, bobber. I need a laugh. You can’t even understand what is written here, and constantly bollocks up facts and simple events. > bobb > > Point out where I defend the supervisor that knew what was going on and > > failed to act properly.

You failed to respond. Just as you nearly always do when you screw up and I challenge you to provide support for your messy mind and stupid mistakes. > > 0:->

0:->

Response:

<kane_poh…@yahoo.com> wrote in message

news:1113528727.328949.163590@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Greegor wrote: >> Kane excused supervisory chain of command at CPS agencies >> for not being aware of what takes place on their watch? > No I didn’t. I pointed out the difficulties involved. Or are you > suggesting it’s an easy job? And of course mistakes would not happen if > you were doing it? >> Any supervisor, and any level, bears a responsibility to >> supervise the activities under their supervision. > That’s right. They are not psychics, however. Or is it required that no > unacceptable events may happen and any supervisor upon whose watch they > do must be fired? > I have a hunch we’d run out of supervisors. What do you think? >> In law suits, the phrases are "knew or SHOULD HAVE KNOWN" >> and "Failure to supervise". > Ah, the "should have known." > You do not understand the implications. > That would suggest there are events judged by others, as NOT being > KNOWN because there was no reason the supervisor "SHOULD HAVE KNOWN." > In other words, it’s been decided that supervisors are not required to > be psychics. If it was sent to a supervisor in a form that is > recognized as being a "should have known" say an email, or memo, or in > conference, then the super should have known. > If it was being passed around the office as rumor, it may well be the > supervisor had not way to know for sure. Of if an event was reported > while the supervisor was away on say vacation, and during the time > after returning they were going through their correspondance and had > not come to the item that exploded into a major event, they would not > be seen as having ‘SHOULD HAVE KNOWN," since it was physically > impossible to do so. > The trick you folks like to play doesn’t work if YOU are in the > hotseat. > You would scream foul. In fact, geegor, you scream fould even when you > SHOULD HAVE KNOWN, that is you were told point blank, publically, but > chose to ignore or go against what you were told. >> Supervisors who don’t supervise because they think >> their deliberate ignorance will shield them are getting >> some REALLY BAD legal advice! > Nope. It doesn’t work that way. If they were officially and or > according to standards of practice not informed or couldn’t know, by > virtue say of extenuating circumstances, like absense, making it > physically impossible for them to know. Then they weren’t ignorant for > deliberate intend to be, but because they could NOT know.

Since we all report to someone, I gotta tell ya there are three words a manager does not want to hear.. "I don’t know".  Of course, the manager must ask all the right questions, he need information to set the course and to prepare for the unexpected…  speaking of good manager, of course.  I suspect CPS neither asks the right questions, don’t know the questions to ask, or just don’t care. Go one step futher.. if the caseworkers don’t do the job properly… it is once again the manager’s problem in that proper direction and/or direction was not afforded. Hmmm… you mentioned  something caseworkers employing use of a "Psychic hotline" which I would be rather caseworkers are rather adept.   Let’s see, they accurately predict ‘risk’ of injury, neglect, and abuse. They forsee hazards before they occur and immediately remove children from ‘harms’ way.   By the time caseworkers advance to manager I’d suggest they should  have these skills well practiced and should have no trouble recognizing caseworkers who are not doing their jobs properly. I mean just ask them… they are professionals, remember? > If you think otherwise, pop up some proof other than innuendo. > No one, least of all I, is defending a supervisor that KNOWS what is > going on and yet does not act correctly on that information. You don’t > read what I write, you just see what you want, instead of what, from my > statements, you "SHOULD HAVE KNOWN."

They why did you throw in that little tidbit about needing  ’ a psychic hot line’? There is no defense for a manager that fails to keep informed.  There is no defense for a manager to keep an enept employee in his/her charge. A manager cannot plead ignorance. bobb – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Point out where I defend the supervisor that knew what was going on and > failed to act properly. > 0:->

Response:

"bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message

news:3uedncqKlq-SbcLfRVn-og@comcast.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Kane wrote… > Did you bother to read the letter from a Portland Oregon volunteer > organization that in fact does prepare children to leave the system as > adults? Same problem. Not enough money. They do good work though with > the volunteers who come forward. > There are many, many agencies, mostly, if not all, private organizations > who are attempting to pick up the pieces CPS left behind and dumped on the > streets. > Let’s not forget…  many foster  parents play a part dumping kids on the > streets  as well.  When the money stops coming in.. the kid goes out. > The typical fare is to find the child housing,… and a job… and > possibly school.  Kids are taught to shop, budget their money.. and their > time. Most are two year programs.  The agency begin by picking up 100 > percent of the costs and gradually reduce funding until the program is > completed.  Ya really have to feel sorry for kids without education and > resources… and most, many, and even a lot, come from CPS.

Mmmhmmmm, and do you feel sorry for the kids who are left in abusive and neglectful homes who don’t make it quite so well either? Poor kids, unable to cope with adult life because they have grown up their whole lives in dysfunctional homes, never getting a reprieve or help like those CPS kids. And one more thing, ‘many’ foster parents DO dump their kids….but ‘many’ don’t, and continue to take care of the kids AFTER the money is gone. Many. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> bobb

Response:

"bobb" <bob@somewhere> wrote in message

news:erudnRSLCtZZnPzfRVn-sw@comcast.com… > What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon to > become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?  Seems to me most > families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year old > "adult" children, on the street the day after his birthday.  Or cut off > his allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals.

‘Most’, is that like ‘many’? And you better bet your ass that ’some’ parents do! As a matter of fact, I was one of them. > The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal > responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.  If fact, it > used to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t even > finished high school at age 18… but.. so what.  CPS rids itself of > another problem and  seeks  other little kids… some like a predator, > wouldn’t you say?

So what you are saying is that DFS seeks out kids to keep in foster care until they turn 18. then they dump their asses out on the street with no money, no feed and nowhere to go, and then look for more kids to keep for the funding until they turn 18, rolling over and over again? Absurd. > Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them with > ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an allowance, > clothes, and the promise of a better life without their interferring > parents.  Sound familiar?

It does NOT sound familiar to me. My daughter was one of those beyond parental control kids. She made a file folder full of DFS complaints against me for almost five years. My goal in life for those five years was to get her in control. DFS never once told that child that she could have a better life without interfering parents etc etc. What they told her was that *I* was the mom, and *SHE* was the kid and she would do as I told her or suffer her consequences. She once had a friend make a report that I had hit her with a broom When the worker arrived to investigate she asked if I had hit her with the broom. I said that I had, that I was sweeping the floor, and that she had called me a ‘bitch’ and when she did I tapped he on the leg with the broom handle. The worker asked to see her leg, did not see a mark, because I had not hit her hard at all, just TAPPED her to get her attention. And then she proceeded to give my daughter an hour long speech about how fortunate she was to live in a nice home, to have food on the table, and parents who cared enough about her to go out hunting for her all night when she didn’t come home on time, etc. I don’t recall the worker mentioning a ‘better’ place to live. > It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place > them in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ being > sexually abused.  Actually, the risk so often mentioned  by  CPS… rises > to the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent.

Ahhhh, yes, first teachers are fulfilling the fantasies of young boys by having sex with them and should be thanked, then sexual abuse is not sexual abuse nor is rape rape, and now homosexuals are potentially (more) a risk for abuse than anyone else. Please, do show me where DFS says that children of homosexual homes are at more risk of abuse. I have never seen such a thing. > If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child > endangerment, neglect, and abuse.

And here I can agree with you. At time the actions of DFS, and even doctors and hospitals and therapists (mandated reporters) mimics the same behaviors that would warrant investigation of a parent. Fired one thrapist for behaviors that would have gotten my ass nailed, and threatened the whole pediatric staff at a local hospital with lawsuit for behaviors that would have gotten me founded by DFS for abuse, or at the least, neglect. But exactly what does that have to do with it? Does DFS charge parents who put out the 18 year old kid and refuse to take care of them? I highly doubt it Bob…show me, I’m from Missouri.  Unless that child is mentally or physically unable to care for themselves…then no, prove it. Does DFs file against a parent who allows a child, for whatever reason, to live with a homosexual aunt or uncle or cousin for ‘risk of harm’?  Hell no, if they do you show me where it’s happened.  I KNOW that’s a lie. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> bobb

Response:

 Kane wrote…

Did you bother to read the letter from a Portland Oregon volunteer organization that in fact does prepare children to leave the system as adults? Same problem. Not enough money. They do good work though with the volunteers who come forward. There are many, many agencies, mostly, if not all, private organizations who are attempting to pick up the pieces CPS left behind and dumped on the streets. Let’s not forget…  many foster  parents play a part dumping kids on the streets  as well.  When the money stops coming in.. the kid goes out. The typical fare is to find the child housing,… and a job… and possibly school.  Kids are taught to shop, budget their money.. and their time. Most are two year programs.  The agency begin by picking up 100 percent of the costs and gradually reduce funding until the program is completed.  Ya really have to feel sorry for kids without education and resources… and most, many, and even a lot, come from CPS. bobb

Response:

bobb wrote: > Kane wrote… > Did you bother to read the letter from a Portland Oregon volunteer > organization that in fact does prepare children to leave the system as > adults? Same problem. Not enough money. They do good work though with > the volunteers who come forward. > There are many, many agencies, mostly, if not all, private organizations who > are attempting to pick up the pieces CPS left behind and dumped on the > streets.

Since CPS is not mandated, nor funded, to deal with adults, how is it in fact dumping children on the street if those children are not longer children and what, bobber, do you think should be done about that? While you are cogitating please try to recall that things cost money. Even doing things costs money. And the biggest problem for kids that become adults, just like in my day, and in yours, is how to create a personal income. List your items you think CPS should have done to solve this problem: 1. 2. 3. (add more, at your pleasure) > Let’s not forget…

If we aren’t going to forget then be sure we have a real, not false, memory. > many foster  parents play a part dumping kids on the > streets  as well.  When the money stops coming in.. the kid goes out.

And the alternative would be? > The typical fare is to find the child housing,… and a job… and possibly > school.

Yes, that would make a lot of sense. My take is that about three quarters of the children that are approaching their majority could give a shit. They will not listen to adults trying to prepare them. They will not attend classes. The only two ways they can learn, except from their peers…which of course, tends all to often to be telling them garbage. "Hey, buy my guitar off me and become a rock star, get laid a lot, and do dope, and make millions." > Kids are taught to shop, budget their money.. and their time. Most > are two year programs.  The agency begin by picking up 100 percent of the > costs and gradually reduce funding until the program is completed. Ya > really have to feel sorry for kids without education and resources… and > most, many, and even a lot, come from CPS.

Oh, you mean this takes money then. And that money will come from where, bobber? Why are you ragging the ng about this instead of appealing to the public? CPS, last I heard, was not the treasury. And I believe I’ve been criticized for suggesting CPS is underfunded. What are YOU doing for those teens, bobber? > bobb

0:->

Response:

When a member of a family takes such GLARING problems as the LIE about a sex abuse history used to make a case, to a CPS supervisor, that supervisor can not claim that they did not know. Their refusal to fix that sort of WRONG is culpable. The family should not have to seek out every single level of supervision over their case to seek correction of such glaring CORRUPTION in their agency!

Response:

Greegor wrote: > When a member of a family

You know of such an event? A real blood or by marriage related family member? That would be then, a giant tsk tsk. You go tell Iowa I said so. > takes such GLARING > problems as the LIE about a sex abuse history used > to make a case, to a CPS supervisor, that supervisor > can not claim that they did not know.

You can assure us that no other factors were used? Or would this be one of those "clutter" cases you charmers like to post here, where you focus on one small issue in an investigation and don’t bother to mention the real serious stuff that were the real cause? > Their refusal to fix that sort of WRONG is culpable.

What obligation do they have to fix it if, by chance, the "family memeber" is in fact not one, and in fact has other issues that are the reason the child was remove? > The family should not have to seek out every single > level of supervision over their case to seek correction > of such glaring CORRUPTION in their agency!

Since we doubt the ‘family member’ actually was one, and that there was ample OTHER issues that no doubt at all contributed to the case, we think you are blowing a long….let’s comin’ up on four years now….stream of smoke up people’s xxxxxx in this ng. Tell us your story, greegor. Such what did happen, in precise detail, recalling of course much of the story you shared already…so try to keep the details sorted out. Say, by the way. What do you think about parents using lethal force to try and take their children from state custody?

Response:

What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon to become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?  Seems to me most families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year old "adult" children, on the street the day after his birthday.  Or cut off his allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals. The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.  If fact, it used to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t even finished high school at age 18… but.. so what.  CPS rids itself of another problem and  seeks  other little kids… some like a predator, wouldn’t you say? Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them with ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an allowance, clothes, and the promise of a better life without their interferring parents.  Sound familiar? It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place them in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ being sexually abused.  Actually, the risk so often mentioned  by  CPS… rises to the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent. If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child endangerment, neglect, and abuse. bobb

Response:

bobb wrote: > What about the mis-spent money leading up to the time the child, soon to > become an adult by some arbitray, pre-determined age?

"Mis-spent money?" (sic) You mean the money spent for other equally, if sometimes even more important mandated requirements of CPS, such as investigations or other duties? Just tell your legislator how YOU wish the money apportioned…money that is, according to media reports, being cut all over the country. > Seems to me most > families don’t dump their kids, oh, I forgot, their now 18 year old "adult" > children, on the street the day after his birthday.  Or cut off his > allowance, or refuse to provide housing, or even meals.

CPS has no mandate to parent children, let alone when parent them when they are adults. One of the favorite mantras of the anti Government crowd is that the state does not make a good parent. They are correct, nor should it even try. While programs to help children exist, you seem to forget that programs for adult indigents exist too, bobber. Most of what happens to young people that is considered bad after leaving state custody has to do with the unwillingness of some youth to accept any services from the state. When you figure out how to deal with this issue, you’ll be a national hero. > The state, as suragate parents, need to recognize their parantal > responibilities should not  end at an age they determine.

Your mistake is in assuming that the state is mandated to be a surrogate parent. It is not. It is, and the public demands, only a stop gap. The fantasy that children are, the day they become adults, thrown out on the street with NO OTHER RESOURCES AVAILABLE is a pile of crap and any person that has even rudimentary knowledge of government services and agencies, and for that matter charitable private sources knows you twits are lost in your anti Government hallucinations. http://www.co.arapahoe.co.us/Departments/HS/ChildProtectionServices/a… Here for instance, is the typical population of teens in state custody or or otherwise in need of state services. " The Adolescent Intake team supports teens with serious problems in school, lack of respect for authority, drug or alcohol involvement, severe legal involvement, conflicted family relationships, and runaways. Youth In Conflict services work to alleviate conflicts, protect youth and the community, re-establish family stability, or assist youth to emancipate successfully.  Services are provided when the conflicts have the potential to affect the youth’s well-being, the normal functioning of the family, or the well-being of the community.  " Do you think such "children" are going to lend themselves to state services on their birthday, if they are already in trouble with the state criminal system? All persuasion that existed at 17 years 364 days is gone on day 365. The "child" may walk, and does, most often. > If fact, it used > to be 21… but that was lowered to age 18.  Most kids haven’t even finished > high school at age 18…

Oh? What backwater are you in? Many children graduate at 17. It’s these troubled and disadvantaged children that don’t graduate at all that you are concerned about. And CPS lacks a mandate to continue services, with rare exception, after they turn 18. Your problem, bobber is that you want to BLAME instead of seek answers. The state this and the state that…but bobber, YOU are the state, despite your denial of the fact. What are YOU doing to help this children you anquish over?  but.. so what.  CPS rids itself of another problem > and  seeks  other little kids… some like a predator, wouldn’t you

say? No, but you would, obviously. The CPS I know is filled with workers that volunteer their time to these children after their regular work hours in programs to help them learn to become responsible adults. They fail a lot. And they fail a lot not because of foster families, or CPS, but because the children came from horrendous birth families that have not prepared them to become adults. > Hmmm… yeah, they seek out little kids, groom them by treating them with > ‘care’ and ‘kindness’, offer them a ‘better’ place to live, an allowance, > clothes, and the promise of a better life without their interferring > parents.  Sound familiar?

No, because that’s not what happens. What happens, and it was twice codified into law very clearly, nationally, is that extraordinary efforts are made to help the bio families they came from to get their acts together, and mostly they tend to "greegor" and "douggie" and "bobber" blaming the state for their troubles. They don’t think they have a problem. And they’ll go to great lengths to try and lie their way along. > It even sounds strangely suspicious that they would intentionally place them > in the care of homosexuals, and other places where  they ‘risk’ being > sexually abused.

Where did you get the idea, other than from the media, and your sick friends, that homosexuals by their sexual orientation are more prone to sexually molest children? > Actually, the risk so often mentioned  by  CPS… rises to > the level of a certainty and with deliberate intent.

The mindless twittering is obviously on a feedback loop and burning out what little brain matter you have left. You are prepared to say that those children are placed with by CPS are certainly and with deliberate intent of the placement or CPS to be abused? Do I read you correctly? > If a parent where to act as does CPS.. they would be charging child > endangerment, neglect, and abuse.

No, on the contrary. If parents had to meet the criteria that a typical foster parent must meet, both in qualifications and treatment of the chidlren in their care, the number of children taken from bio families would very likely be up to or more than half the families in this country. Just the criminal background checks and refusal to certify as "parents" as applicants to be foster parents experience, would easily cover half the country. Parents may legally spank their children in every state in the union. Foster parents, even if not a mark is made on the child, even a faint temporary mark, may not spank or use any kind of corporal punishment. As I recall there is one state where it is allowed, in the south I believe, but that is extremely rare. > bobb

Tirelessly and tiresomely, bobber the swift spouts illogical emotion laden nonsense, ignorant of facts, laden with propaganda fed to him by Doug and the "anti" crowd. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=%22youth+services%22&btnG=Se… Results 1 – 10 of about 1,520,000 for "youth services" Many entries include "young adults" and in fact CPS programs for teens aging out of the system make it a point to hook up these youngsters prior to that leaving. Some connect, some refuse to. CPS cannot make them connect. There are also charitable, often funded with grants from business and trusts, as well as some small city, county, state, and occassionally federal government grants. http://myfriendsplace.org/info.htm http://www.youthservice.org/ http://www.doleta.gov/youth_services/ In fact there are literally hundreds of such programs across the country, bobber, none of which you seem aware of, and obviously none of which you are involved with. You simply kvetch, and fart, as far as I can see, orally. There are churches, civic service clubs, men’s organizations, community enrichment organizations, and the government sponsored organizations that are addressing the issues for YOUTH, bobber. The editorial you read in another thread is basically a load of crap attempting to attack already beleaguered state government that is experiencing the revenue losses from an economy that is staggering along. Grow up, you old fart, and do something rather than sit and complain, wrongly. Or accept that YOU are part of the problem.

Response:

For many foster children, hard life begins as adults National study finds the system can leave staggering problems By MELANIE MARKLEY Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle RESOURCES FALLOUT FROM FOSTER CARE

Question:

Tom Vizzini wrote: > I’m not sure which is worse on this group. > It could be the suspicious nature of everyone here. > What seems to be overwhelming though is that this place reeks of fear.

You come in here, insult us, and expect us to buy your product? May you wake up tomorrow morning in a dimly lit room with a Reverse Bear Trap attached to your skull. /obscure

Response:

In news:cbCdnRbgjMdFbKPfRVn-tQ@adelphia.com, Tom Vizzini <T…@essential-skills.com> wrote : > Some people only want help if it is free.  I think that’s an > interesting measure of the value of the help you receive. > If you > only want what is free to you are guaranteed to be delivered > something I rarely works.

    Interesting freudian slip…!

Response:

> In news:cbCdnRbgjMdFbKPfRVn-tQ@adelphia.com, Tom Vizzini

<T…@essential-skills.com> wrote : > > Some people only want help if it is free.  I think that’s an > > interesting measure of the value of the help you receive. > > If you > > only want what is free to you are guaranteed to be delivered > > something I rarely works. F

Question:

::Suicide "is uncommon but serious," Fergusson said in an

interview.:: and suicide and drug addictions are listed as ’side effects’… how sick is THAT ! also, there are NO documented success results, but many documented ’side effects’… and these pills are handed out with reckless abandon… if the patient, on follow-up, reports no positive results, another is handed out, the name of the medication changed (to protect the monetary scam of the pharmaceutical company or competitive company) and the wheels of "finding the ‘right one’ keep on turnin". Quote from lead researcher of published study reporting increased number of suicide attempts among SSRI users than among the sugar pill placebo group. As reported by Wash Post.

…and this is supported not only by the government, but by insurance companies, as well. we sit back and wonder why disorders are at an all-time high, our society being fed a bill of goods with no light at the end of this sickening tunnel, psychology being no longer a helpful hand in solving issues, but being dictated to by the pharmachological community, as pharmaceutical kick-backs are the choice du jour for economic gain.  this now well-oiled machine no longer a last resort for ‘help’ with a truly unsolvable situation, but a systematic scam with a pecking order designed to further economic prosperity within an industry originally designed to aid in recovery, this malfeason, accepted by the population at large… astonishing. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – just sharing. fig

Response:

I s’pose it’s tacky to laugh in the context of a discussion about suicide. However, "uncommon but serious"?  LOL, does it get any more serious than offing yourself?

yup, right up there with ‘lethargy, sleeplessness, and nausea’. As to the data on anti-depressants, I will say nothing,

now THIS IS truly a miracle !  despite the desire to do otherwise.  :)

(how’s i know he was suppressin’?)  <wink – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Trying for less bias: Gary

Response:

Rat Brain’s Executive Hub Quells Alarm Center if Stress is Controllable Treatments for mood and anxiety disorders are thought to work, in part, by helping patients control the stresses in their lives.

(because actually interacting with consequences and promoting consequences and even parenting with our children was way too difficult and time consuming.)  A new study in rats by National Institutes of Health (NIH) grantees provides insight into the brain mechanisms likely involved. When it deems a stressor controllable, an executive hub in the front of the brain quells an alarm center deep in the brainstem, preventing the adverse behavioral and physiological effects of uncontrollable stress.

(and yes, behavior was controlled by repercussions, awards vs punishment in children, and by dealing with situations as a part of life, as an adult… that wasn’t workin’ for us?  i mean… WE turned out, ok, didn’t we?  (or was that not profitable for tha powers that be?) Lack of control over stressful life experiences has been implicated in mood and anxiety disorders.

(of course there had to be a label there, as previously the sentence could read "learning control over stress life experiences is manageable, paramount to raising our childrens, as coping mechanisms are paramount to health, physical and mental")  Rats exposed to uncontrollable stress develop learned helplessness, a syndrome similar to depression and post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). They lose the ability to learn how to escape stressors.

(we had rat traps back in tha day, now they’re dictating rational behavioral methods for humans)  These signals are sent via the chemical messenger serotonin, which is involved in mood regulation and in mediating the effects of the most widely prescribed antidepressants.

amazin’ stuff.  The medial prefrontal cortex has also been implicated as the source of an "all clear" signal that quells fear in rats.*

well THAT is proof positive. To find out the role of the medial prefrontal cortex, Maier’s team chemically inactivated it in rats that were learning to control a stressor. The animals showed the same brainstem activation and, eventually, the same behaviors characteristic of depression (failure to learn to escape) and anxiety (exaggerated fear conditioning) as rats exposed to uncontrollable stress.

it would be WAY too simple to get em a wheel or sumthin ta take their stress out on, wouldn’t it? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – "If an organism can cope behaviorally with an event, there’s no need for intense physiological adaptation. It has been assumed that when stressors are uncontrollable the organism learns this, and that it is this uncontrollability that sets off the neural cascade," explained Maier. "However, our data suggest that instead it is control that is the active ingredient. If the organism has control and can cope behaviorally, this is detected by the cortex, which then sends inhibitory signals to the brainstem." In PTSD, which is triggered by uncontrollable stress, medial prefrontal cortex activity is reduced. Proposing an analogous mechanism, Maier speculated that loss of inhibition from the medial prefrontal cortex may explain increased activity of the amygdala (a fear hub) in PTSD.

wonder did them rats suffer PTSD as a result of havin a wheel once then havin it taken away. (does the government get grants for this crap?) Also participating the study were: Drs. Jose Amat, Erin Paul, Sondra Bland, Linda Watkins, and Michael Baratta.

(i bet their family is so proud.)

Response:

Wheels just keep on turnin’, proud Mary keep on burnin…  (breaking into song here in no place ta’ be) G

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – ::Suicide "is uncommon but serious," Fergusson said in an interview.:: and suicide and drug addictions are listed as ’side effects’… how sick is THAT ! also, there are NO documented success results, but many documented ’side effects’… and these pills are handed out with reckless abandon… if the patient, on follow-up, reports no positive results, another is handed out, the name of the medication changed (to protect the monetary scam of the pharmaceutical company or competitive company) and the wheels of "finding the ‘right one’ keep on turnin". Quote from lead researcher of published study reporting increased number of suicide attempts among SSRI users than among the sugar pill placebo group. As reported by Wash Post. …and this is supported not only by the government, but by insurance companies, as well. we sit back and wonder why disorders are at an all-time high, our society being fed a bill of goods with no light at the end of this sickening tunnel, psychology being no longer a helpful hand in solving issues, but being dictated to by the pharmachological community, as pharmaceutical kick-backs are the choice du jour for economic gain.  this now well-oiled machine no longer a last resort for ‘help’ with a truly unsolvable situation, but a systematic scam with a pecking order designed to further economic prosperity within an industry originally designed to aid in recovery, this malfeason, accepted by the population at large… astonishing. just sharing. fig

Response:

Rat Brain’s Executive Hub Quells Alarm Center if Stress is Controllable Treatments for mood and anxiety disorders are thought to work, in part, by helping patients control the stresses in their lives. (because actually interacting with consequences and promoting consequences and even parenting with our children was way too difficult and time consuming.)

BINGO!

Response:

::Suicide "is uncommon but serious," Fergusson said in an interview.:: Quote from lead researcher of published study reporting increased number of suicide attempts among SSRI users than among the sugar pill placebo group. As reported by Wash Post. just sharing. fig

Interestingly this was just published: Suicide Rates Have Decreased With Increased Use of SSRIs, New-Generation Non-SSRIs Laurie Barclay, MD Feb. 7, 2005