Question:
I’m hoping we don’t get into an argument as to which is worse, war born PTSD or childhood trauma PTSD. I can see that coming. They are very different.
Valentine writes:
Nice thought, too bad it didn’t work. Pat writes:
I speak for myself. The "trauma" imposed upon me by repeated rapes by my step-father, the gang rape I endured in the 8th grade, trading sex for a place to sleep and dinner, getting involved in making some of them porno photos that men just love to keep stashed away…. None of this comes anyway near the "trauma" inflicted by war. Valentine writes:
I see you are in both camps, you are survivor of child abuse and the horrors of war. I still would not want to tell someone which is worse and I don’t really think that is what you want either. Maybe you think that we are minimizing how bad war is. I don’t think that is the case. What we have here is a bunch of people just trying to survive. We have people telling us on all sides to just get over it and live our lives and we get very little validation for the hell we lived through called childhood. The same can be said for the vet. Unless you have been there it is impossible to appreciate how bad it really is. There is no language that can discribe what war is like and the effects it leaves on the people who are inflicted by it. We are both survivors and maybe instead of attacking each other we should try to find common ground.
Response:
Crisis girl writes:
I’m hoping we don’t get into an argument as to which is worse, war born PTSD or childhood trauma PTSD. Valentine writes:
I sure agree with you there. I know I hate it when I see people telling other survivors their abuse was not severe enough or not the right kind. Even saying it sounds wierd to me. Crisis writes Childhood trauma starts usually (statistics show) at age 5 with the first memory suppression or split if dissociative. This is still at a stage when the individual is unable to think for themself and has not formed the self protective skills that an adult would have. In that way yes I believe it is worse. It goes on for years and years until the child is able to leave home, if that is where the abuse is coming from or to get it to stop. This does untold damage to the child’s and then the adult’s coping skills. I am climbing my way out of that dissociative mess right now. Valentine writes:
This is so true. I have often said that. We don’t know how to cope because when we were suposed to learn we were taught the opposite. I know as an adult I have very few coping skills and it doesn’t take much stess to put me in a tailspin. How often have you heard people tell you, "it’s not that big a deal!" Sometimes just every day misshaps can just about put me over the edge. I believe it is getting better though.
Response:
First off it was requested to not get into a spitting contest regarding which is worse. Childhood trauma or war trauma. No one can judge. No one can feel what is inside others. Better – Worse. What does this mean when it comes to pain and heartpain. It simply doesn’t matter. Human beings hurt and that is what we respond to not which is more or less. That is ludicrous. I’m hoping we don’t get into an argument as to which is worse, war
born PTSD or childhood trauma PTSD. I can see that coming. They are very different. Yes they are very, very different Do you remember the war stories your Grandpa told?
My Grandfather would have never told war stories, ever. He would have thought it beneath him and tacky. Or how about the diaries of soldiers in the Civil War? How many WWII vets have you spoken with? Do you volunteer at your local VA hospital? What do you think that old term "shell-shocked" might have meant? Does this have a point??? Now, I might be wrong about this, but I do believe that it was the
Veterans Administration which studied and coined the term Post Traumatic Distress Disorder. And from where I sit, the VA is doing a remarkable job being that it department is so attached to the government and all. I bet PTSD was coined by a psychiatrist that was treating vets that the VA refused to or botched. How nice for you that the VA has been able to help you. What about agent Orange and Gulf Syndrom. They have continually dropped the ball when it means the government would have to put out money for litigation. PTSD commands long term treatment and from every vet I have talked to with it, and yes there have been a lot from hotline work, the last thing they want in the conversation is the Vets Admin, because they have been not treated at all or treated poorly. For the past several years, with no medical insurance, I have had to
rely on the VA for medical care. I also have had several very good friends succumb to AIDS. Those who received their care from the VA seemed to actually have better health care than those who didn’t and had to rely on other public health funds and AIDS resources. that’s wonderful for them and you and what does this have to do with PTSD. Maybe Crisis, you haven’t a clue as to the great work done by the
Veterans Administration. Maybe Pat you don’t seem to have a clue about how to talk to people without using an insulting condescending tone and thats why you end up e-mailing and apologizing. Frankly, I don’t like your attitude or your temperment. If you have a cold and go to the VA I bet they do a dandy job. I PERSONALLY, MY OPINION, did that get through, my opinion, the thing thats allowed to be different, they do not do a good job with mental illness caused by Vietnam and any illness surrounding agent orange and gulf war syndrome. I feel they have definitely dropped the ball here, because it will cost them millions of dollars worth of claims. So you keep having your medical problems treated there. That is up to you. I have my opinion based on vets who were treated in Houston for the above mentioned things. I think it is reasonable to assume that an adult going into war has
more developed coping skills going into the war. Just my humble opinion. Take your mind back a few years, like to 1965 or so. How many young teenage boys do you know who went to fight over there and came back from Nam empty shells of what they were before.
This statement in no way addresses their pre-war coping skills. I’m addressing the VA in this post and I didn’t see them waiting with drug addiction treatment and proper long term psychological treatment, or any treatment for agent orange. One day while cooking up hamburgers at the local Burger Chef this guy I had known in jr. high school came in. I hadn’t seen him for about a year. He was home for R&R. He spoke of Nam and how horrible it was. He told me of his buddy–one minute he was standing beside him–next, nothing but a bloody mess his body torn to shreds.
Pat have you no sensitivity and do you learn nothing from posting here. That last sentence was not necessary and you know perfectly well because you have e-mailed requested me to explain what is triggering for somepeople. Girl, war is horrible. Maybe because I have been in the service and know so many veterans, I feel differently than you.
Did you personally serve in any war???? Anyone over the age of 40 knows lots of vets, we’ve lived long enough. Do you think you are the only one who knows vets. (not in the biblical sence I am assuming) I am fifty years old and lost many many many friends in the war and trying to deal with the aftermath. I do not equate the frienship I had with them to loyalty to the Vets Administration, which by the way had to be forced to help them when they came back. I speak for myself. The "trauma" imposed upon me by repeated rapes by
my step-father, the gang rape I endured in the 8th grade, trading sex for a place to sleep and dinner, getting involved in making some of them porno photos that men just love to keep stashed away…. None of this comes anyway near the "trauma" inflicted by war. Pat, have you personally experienced the trauma inflicted by war. Do you have something to base this on? Or are you as usual citing the gospel according to Pat. And what on earth does anything you have done have to do with Vets and PTSD – They are different. Just as your experiences are different from my experiences, but you seem to be saying that you know exactly where everyones experiences fit in. The world has been waiting for the re-emergence of an all knowing, all seeing, being – perhaps you are it. Crisis
Response:
i understand that the experiences of wartime are different, and in many ways more severe than my own, but my experiences also lasted for 13 years. i have the symptoms of ptsd, and what does it take away from the horror of the experiences of veterans to admit that there are other situations which create just as much trauma, both physically and emotionally? i think this emotional dick-sizing is counter-productive to both sets of people, and frankly, also quite cruel. Silverleaf, I totally agree with you. I’m really wondering why it appears that people come on this group and try to minimize our experiences (especially when we do such a good job of that all on our own…sigh…). Peace… Valerie Whittle
Response:
I’m hoping we don’t get into an argument as to which is worse, war born PTSD or childhood trauma PTSD. I can see that coming. They are very different.
Yes they are very, very different war born is a termporary trauma for a limited time (the duration of the war or whatever or for however long the individual is in it). The flashbacks and memories are forever or until when ever they seek competent treatment. (I say competent because from my experience talking to vets the vets administration hasn’t a clue as to how to deal with this).
Do you remember the war stories your Grandpa told? Or how about the diaries of soldiers in the Civil War? How many WWII vets have you spoken with? Do you volunteer at your local VA hospital? What do you think that old term "shell-shocked" might have meant? Now, I might be wrong about this, but I do believe that it was the Veterans Administration which studied and coined the term Post Traumatic Distress Disorder. And from where I sit, the VA is doing a remarkable job being that it department is so attached to the government and all. For the past several years, with no medical insurance, I have had to rely on the VA for medical care. I also have had several very good friends succumb to AIDS. Those who received their care from the VA seemed to actually have better health care than those who didn’t and had to rely on other public health funds and AIDS resources. Maybe Crisis, you haven’t a clue as to the great work done by the Veterans Administration. I think it is reasonable to assume that an adult going into war has more developed coping skills going into the war. Just my humble opinion.
Take your mind back a few years, like to 1965 or so. How many young teenage boys do you know who went to fight over there and came back from Nam empty shells of what they were before. One day while cooking up hamburgers at the local Burger Chef this guy I had known in jr. high school came in. I hadn’t seen him for about a year. He was home for R&R. He spoke of Nam and how horrible it was. He told me of his buddy–one minute he was standing beside him–next, nothing but a bloody mess his body torn to shreds. Girl, war is horrible. Maybe because I have been in the service and know so many veterans, I feel differently than you. I speak for myself. The "trauma" imposed upon me by repeated rapes by my step-father, the gang rape I endured in the 8th grade, trading sex for a place to sleep and dinner, getting involved in making some of them porno photos that men just love to keep stashed away…. None of this comes anyway near the "trauma" inflicted by war. Crisis
Peace baby. Pat
Response:
listen, i appreciate that you felt the need to point out information was mistaken. but would you mind *terribly* not belittling my experience while you’re at it? i was sexually, physically, and emotionally abused by both my parents. i did have to worry about whether i’d survive the next beating, i was very often starved, and i was raped and watched my siblings be raped by a man who pretended to be a parent. i understand that the experiences of wartime are different, and in many ways more severe than my own, but my experiences also lasted for 13 years. i have the symptoms of ptsd, and what does it take away from the horror of the experiences of veterans to admit that there are other situations which create just as much trauma, both physically and emotionally? i think this emotional dick-sizing is counter-productive to both sets of people, and frankly, also quite cruel. raze of silverleaf — — "You can’t fight evil with a macaroni duck!" "I’ll be the judge of that!" -Arthur and the Tick
Response:
(Silverleaf) writes: i think this emotional dick-sizing is counter-productive to both sets of people, and frankly, also quite cruel.
I agree silverleaf and I don’t think we took your feelings into consideration when we started discussing it. I don’t think anyone thought of you at all. I am truly sorry. Thank you for pointing it out. I think we needed to see that. Sorry again. Take care, Crisis
Response:
O’Hara) writes: The data she assembles actually suggests that the survivor’s PTSD is worse. This does nothing, however, to lessen the sacrifices our young men and women have made in the armed forces.
Hi Michael: How’s purple angel, well I hope as to both of you. I’m hoping we don’t get into an argument as to which is worse, war born PTSD or childhood trauma PTSD. I can see that coming. They are very different. war born is a termporary trauma for a limited time (the duration of the war or whatever or for however long the individual is in it). The flashbacks and memories are forever or until when ever they seek competent treatment. (I say competent because from my experience talking to vets the vets administration hasn’t a clue as to how to deal with this). Childhood trauma starts usually (statistics show) at age 5 with the first memory suppression or split if dissociative. This is still at a stage when the individual is unable to think for themself and has not formed the self protective skills that an adult would have. In that way yes I believe it is worse. It goes on for years and years until the child is able to leave home, if that is where the abuse is coming from or to get it to stop. This does untold damage to the child’s and then the adult’s coping skills. I am climbing my way out of that dissociative mess right now. I think it is reasonable to assume that an adult going into war has more developed coping skills going into the war. Just my humble opinion. Crisis
Response:
Pat, welcome back, you’ve been gone for a while Althouht you bring up some good points, you might want to check out Dr. Judith Lewis Herman’s work, especially her book Trauma and Recovery. Her study clearly demonstrates the links between our soldier’s PTSD and survivor’s PTSD. The data she assembles actually suggests that the survivor’s PTSD is worse. This does nothing, however, to lessen the sacrifices our young men and women have made in the armed forces. (trying to reconstruct the message I mailed to you, wrong key, you know) and in peace, Michael, purpleangel’s angel
: SPOILER – MAJOR SCARCASM AHEAD
: I’m not sorry. I’ll jump. : : Child trauma causes permanent brain damage, that is what : causes PTSD and DID. : Please define childhood trauma. If you mean childhood sexual abuse to the : extent that daddy twiddled the twat and had sex with you and compare that to : the horrors that children living in a war zone might encounter (who do not have : PTSD/DID) or maybe childhood slavery : Most of us in the industralized nations have had a pretty good life. We didn’t : have to worry about bombs, naplam, starvation, a place to live…. : But boy do we have trouble dealing with incest… : Checkit up in the literature. Good article in Scientific : American last November for starters. : People with chronic PTSD have shrunken hippocampal volumes, : that’s probably how our memories get so screwed and come : back in such … er…. "compelling" fashion as flashbacks : rather than neatly sorted reconstructions : Last November, when I first encountered this subject, I checked out MEDLINE and : found that ALL studies indexed at that time used COMBAT-RELATED PTSD as : subjects — not SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIMS. : I just spent my lunch hour to walk over to the library to check out the : November issue of Scientific American, but you gave a wrong reference. There : is not an article in that issue dealing with sexual abuse of children and/or : hippocamal size. : There is no need for misinformation. : Pat : A Vietnam-era veteran who supports her brothers-in-arms.
Response:
SPOILER – MAJOR SCARCASM AHEAD I’m not sorry. I’ll jump. Child trauma causes permanent brain damage, that is what causes PTSD and DID.
Please define childhood trauma. If you mean childhood sexual abuse to the extent that daddy twiddled the twat and had sex with you and compare that to the horrors that children living in a war zone might encounter (who do not have PTSD/DID) or maybe childhood slavery Most of us in the industralized nations have had a pretty good life. We didn’t have to worry about bombs, naplam, starvation, a place to live…. But boy do we have trouble dealing with incest… Checkit up in the literature. Good article in Scientific American last November for starters. People with chronic PTSD have shrunken hippocampal volumes, that’s probably how our memories get so screwed and come back in such … er…. "compelling" fashion as flashbacks rather than neatly sorted reconstructions
Last November, when I first encountered this subject, I checked out MEDLINE and found that ALL studies indexed at that time used COMBAT-RELATED PTSD as subjects — not SEXUAL ABUSE VICTIMS. I just spent my lunch hour to walk over to the library to check out the November issue of Scientific American, but you gave a wrong reference. There is not an article in that issue dealing with sexual abuse of children and/or hippocamal size. There is no need for misinformation. Pat A Vietnam-era veteran who supports her brothers-in-arms.
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