Question:
MPD? It is a traumatic experience!" Certainly some people have been misdiagnosed as MPD. The most accurate diagnosis comes from therapists who are familiar with dissociative disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. Peter — Peter M. Barach, Ph.D., Clinical Psychologist 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Heights, Ohio 44130 voice: 216-845-9011 (press 6 if you get voice mail) fax: 216-845-9013
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Has anyone else out there been misdiagnosed as MPD? It is a traumatic experience! thank you. beth
Response:
Has anyone else out there been misdiagnosed as MPD? It is a traumatic experience! thank you. beth
I’ve been misdiagnosed as _not_ mpd, but never the other way. Could you say more? I would like to suggest that you spoiler this topic just to make sure no one is triggered or upset by it. A spoiler is a brief explanation of what is to come, followed by some lines (not blank as some readers delete everything below blank lines) then the post. Here is an example spoiler. If this were a real spoiler I would say ’spoilered for talk of misdiagnosis and being labeled mpd.’ then I would put in about twenty lines using words or x or whatever and then I would start the actual post below. If it is properly spoilered I would be interested in hearing what you have to say on this. I assume it is possible to misdiagnose multiplicity just like any other disorder in the DSM IV. Rainbow Colors (Jill) — I am in the process of becoming, so this space is blank.
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I’ve lost track of who I am quoting here. Sorry. I’m starting to believe that there are two types of "dissociative disorders"–the Classic type, spawned during early childhood in response to severe and repeated trauma, and the Neo type, which has more to do with inborn creative/spacey/suggestible personality characteristics mixed with a childhood that wasn’t so hot, but couldn’t be described as "traumatic".
My diagnosis has been "Major Depression, Severe, Recurrent" for a long time. Today I asked my therapist what her label for me would be if I had not come to her pre-labelled, so to speak. She said that she thinks that for me, major depression is a symptom, not really the core thing (although the depression is very real). She said she thinks I have a fragmented self resulting from chronic neglect that was so severe that it was psychologically traumatic. Given the extent of my dissociation, she suspects that there could be some specific physical and/or s*xual ab*se, although neither of us know of any (and, she added, it may not be there). Wrapped around that (she says), I developed a character that is largely schizoid. From what she’s said in the past and what I’ve read, that means that I am not very connected to outside events or people outside myself. She says that the schizoid stuff helps protect me by distancing me from any further trauma and by acting as a kind of container for my fragmented self. Wrapped around the schizoid stuff, and partly because of the schizoid stuff and partly re-inforcing the schizoid stuff, is the depression. Made sense to me. I told her, "You know, I haven’t told you anything significantly different than I’ve been telling all these other people, but you’re the first one who seems to credit a lot of the things I say." My last therapist used to talk about learning to take care of my "inner child", but she never really seemed to understand when I told her that there are a lot more of us in here than me and some kid, and that some of them stand between me and the one she was talking about. I’m feeling a little angry about the time wasted while people who are supposed to know how to listen for what’s going on spent so much time ignoring and discounting what I said. I haven’t been misdiagnosed mpd. Maybe I haven’t been misdiagnosed at all. But I have been inadequately diagnosed. (And, from what my therapist said today, I’m still not diagnosed DID, so I guess I land in DDNOS.) ej
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jumping in on this late in the game when i was 17 i wasd misdiagnosised and medicated at new york hospital/payne whitney pysch center they said ambultory schizophrenia and organic brain damage [b*ll s*t] the next shrink behaviorally pulled me together and off the streets/i spun off functional external parts got married age 20 ,and lived the next 2 decades self harming and hiding,plus being abused by ex husband 5 years ago had a break down/or actually break thru to coawareness started to be treated by those more familar with mpd/did and thru increased coawareness am on the road to healing,out of abusive marriage and sex self harm is much more uncontrol and on a good antidepressents[the other stuff stinks] in my opinion hospitals from my day were and still are full of misdiagnosised dissociatives that are being considered untreatable schizophreics [that can only be treated and maintained by drug therapy] again i say b*ll most of these people are trauma based victims mistreated and diagnosised and far far worse mismedicated and treated so harshly thru the system the actually become pyschotic and more permanently damaged just lucky for me i got away in time i may have spent the next 2 decades locked away in my own prison hospital,but at least now i can get out of mine i personally think it was high time the whole diagnostic system was changed the only defintion in the dsm that makes any sense at at is the one on post traumatic stress syndrome i think as trauma survivors we all share the syptons of p.t.s.d. therefore we should all be classified under that main heading,but then it should be expanded upon by say p.t.s.d #1 and #2 and on and on to include increased dissociation on the spectrum leading from the most minor up to the most shattered by classifing us all on a chart of this nature not only would it make it all less confusing and more uniform ,but it would also remove the terrible stigma of society connected to mpd/and did too/plus it is also frighteneing to newly diagnosised patients sh*t we are all coming from such a similar place,we were all children [different ages of onset of abuse,different genders,and backrounds] some more pysically abused some mentally,and most sexual abuse too but we are all traumatized children for god sakes,and our own anxiety levels and body chemistry has been screwed up. if we can get those parts to stop being scared,know the war is over and come out of the ditches and into the sun and look around and not be so scared well then the chemicals would stop pumping and the hallucinations and anxietys would subside i am tired i just want this all to be over with ,enough is enough already,i have gotta try to make it safe enough for them so they can finally all come out and be free – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – post/ mail cc to (Ashamed) Hi, beth, I’m {cherish} and by the authority invested in me by *Grace* I welcome you to alt.support.dissociation AKA asd, a.s.d., asdiss, a.s.diss. (AKA stands for also known as. There is a lot of AKA going on around here.) brief spoiler for topic of misdiagnosis and talking about Peter a b c d e f g (Hi, (Ashamed), here is a good example of Peter helping someone. Hope this doesn’t scare your littles.) MPD? It is a traumatic experience!" Certainly some people have been misdiagnosed as MPD. The most accurate diagnosis comes from therapists who are familiar with dissociative disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. Peter Started to change the Subject from Re: misdiagnosed MPD to misdiagnosed MPD by Peter M. Barach, but decided against it. <grin {cherish} a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
Response:
Certainly some people have been misdiagnosed as MPD. The most accurate diagnosis comes from therapists who are familiar with dissociative disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. Peter
went there, did that, didn’t like it, went back, did it again, still didn’t like it. but i did asked for it. and here i am, all officially DID, and of course it’s not true, i made it all up, etc. has anyone around here heard that before???
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There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. You might be intersted in reading about Psychosynthesis by Roberto Assagioli the Italian psychiatrist. he wrote about everyone having "sub-personalities". I have found
his writings comforting on days when I did not feel the dx was appropriate. Ann – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m starting to believe that there are two types of "dissociative disorders"–the Classic type, spawned during early childhood in response to severe and repeated trauma, and the Neo type, which has more to do with inborn creative/spacey/suggestible personality characteristics mixed with a childhood that wasn’t so hot, but couldn’t be described as "traumatic". I dunno whether the treatment for Neo-Dissociation and Classic Dissociation should be the same, but I do think that they should be classified as separate problems. I suppose that’s what the DMS-IV folks were trying to do with the DDNOS diagnosis, but that’s not quite hitting the mark for me.
Response:
There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. You might be intersted in reading about Psychosynthesis by Roberto Assagioli the Italian psychiatrist. he wrote about everyone having "sub-personalities". I have found his writings comforting on days when I did not feel the dx was appropriate. Ann
The funny thing about healing, well…funny as in odd…is that when I’m feeling more together then I go into this denial of the dx, DID. That’s how it’s been today. There has been continuity from one event to another throughout the day and I haven’t been as spacey as I usually feel. So now I wonder, "Gee, wonder why I made up all that other stuff. I don’t have a dissociative disorder, really." So, ironically, when I’m not doing so well, then I know all about how dissociative I am. A paradox. Oh, well, just wanted to respond to this thread. Faith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I’m starting to believe that there are two types of "dissociative disorders"–the Classic type, spawned during early childhood in response to severe and repeated trauma, and the Neo type, which has more to do with inborn creative/spacey/suggestible personality characteristics mixed with a childhood that wasn’t so hot, but couldn’t be described as "traumatic". I dunno whether the treatment for Neo-Dissociation and Classic Dissociation should be the same, but I do think that they should be classified as separate problems. I suppose that’s what the DMS-IV folks were trying to do with the DDNOS diagnosis, but that’s not quite hitting the mark for me.
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post/ mail cc to (Ashamed) Hi, beth, I’m {cherish} and by the authority invested in me by *Grace* I welcome you to alt.support.dissociation AKA asd, a.s.d., asdiss, a.s.diss. (AKA stands for also known as. There is a lot of AKA going on around here.) brief spoiler for topic of misdiagnosis and talking about Peter a b c d e f g (Hi, (Ashamed), here is a good example of Peter helping someone. Hope this doesn’t scare your littles.) MPD? It is a traumatic experience!" Certainly some people have been misdiagnosed as MPD. The most accurate diagnosis comes from therapists who are familiar with dissociative disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. Peter
Started to change the Subject from Re: misdiagnosed MPD to misdiagnosed MPD by Peter M. Barach, but decided against it. <grin {cherish} a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
Response:
There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. FWIW, I think it’d be pretty hard to trust the results of a DID/MPD diagnostic test if you’ve been reading this newsgroup or other sources of info on the topic. It’d be pretty hard *not* to start exhibiting a few dissoid symptoms if you did a little reading and found a few similarities between yourself and folks with the dx.
This is something that I’ve been working on with therpist for a while now. What’s a "classic" dissociative profile, where I fit in that profile, what "uses" dissociation has for me, what is "counter-productive" about it … what is "genuine", what is less so. "Authentic" being the buzz-word du jour. When you feel bad and you don’t know why, you start looking for answers. Sometimes you just want *any* diagnosis, because if a problem can be named, then there must be a solution to that problem, eh?
And for me, in particular, there was #asar2 where all of the feelings that I’ve never really been able to express found validation and acceptance. And at a time in my life when all the ‘go somewhere and be invisible’ messages from my less-than-spiffy childhood were surging back into my life. So here was confirmation of my ‘craziness’ (read, for me, [and your mileage WILL vary] a vacation from responsibility for my actions, and more specifically, for my feelings) coupled with acceptance and the irc version of love … who could ask for anything more? *sigh* I, for one, would love to be able to "prove" to myself that I either am or am not DID. But it’s too late to take a diagnostic test. I could easily "fake" the results, either consciously or unconsciously. The results would be contaminated by my knowledge of the signs and symptoms. The results would be contaminated by whether I "wanted" the dx on the day I completed the interview.
A resounding "me too" on that one .. and compounded by the knowledge that you can’t "unlearn" the technique, if you will, of dissocation … that genie will *not* go back in the bottle. Once it’s been found to be an effective coping mechanism, for whatever good and worthy reason, it’s there in your life for the rest of your life. I’m not talking now about "integration" or lack thereof, but more about the *mechanism*. And yeah, I got the dx. And yeah, I think it is wrong. Most days. And then little things happen that make me think the dx is correct. And then I think I’m fooling myself just so I’ll have a diagnosis to which I can cling, because I can’t bear the thought of going back to Ground Zero without even a name for my constellation of problems.
I have the dx from one group of therps and not another. The bias of the first group being as shown above, the bias of the second being that it (MP) is scarce as hen’s teeth ("never seen it, never gonna"). So go figure … I can’t. It’s a working hypothesis for me. It fits (some of the time). I don’t think it’s all that harmful to be misdiagnosed MPD, though. My personal opinion is that most psychological problems (except for the biological ones) are the result of different compartments of our minds being unable to communicate with each other.
Yep, yep, yep, YES … and compartmentalizing emotions into "acceptable" and "unacceptable" and trying to ignore the "unacceptable" in order to feel myself "un-invisible" was denying me all of my child-like joy of living and all of my adult strength .. I was stuck in some limbo of "good wife/good mommy/good whatever" and probably would still be there except for this ng, irc and a serious inability to really "go there" (into /mode self-destruct), at least part of the time. Thinking of unwanted emotions and desires as "alters" isn’t so bad, if it helps to bring some of that unconscious garbage to the forefront. I mean, what is psychotherapy if not a process of "going inside" and asking the "parts" to express themselves?
Yes, and that’s what irc has done for me .. permit me to talk to myself, in many, many ways, and to get feedback from those parts of me that I’ve spent a lot of years denying existed. The only time the diagnosis gets dicey is when it’s in the hands of naive clinicians, most of them well-meaning, who assume that dissociative tendencies are necessarily the result of chronic childhood trauma of the highest order. That can be kind of tricky.
<snip, or, as someone else said, snip-a-de-doo-dah If she were diagnosed today, though, I think a lot of therapists would automatically assume that there was massive physical or sexual or emotional abuse on the part of her parents or other important adults in her life.
Yep, and that’s very scary, because that’s when people can start tromping around looking for what *must* have happened in order for the "classic" MP symptoms to be there. It’s a Catch-22: you’re MP, therefore you have serious prolonged sexual or emotional abuse … oh, don’t you? then you’re not MP, except that you’re MP. Etc. and so forth. I’m starting to believe that there are two types of "dissociative disorders"–the Classic type, spawned during early childhood in response to severe and repeated trauma, and the Neo type, which has more to do with inborn creative/spacey/suggestible personality characteristics mixed with a childhood that wasn’t so hot, but couldn’t be described as "traumatic".
Bingo! (not the person, jus me hoppin around with joy at being kinda-almost understood). I’d add, though, a precipitating event of some kind, something that brings everything together (or flies everything apart, depending on your point of view). For me, it was my husband’s diagnosis of terminal cancer, and then the "gee, nevermind" un-diagnosis, and his total and complete (and understandable) preoccupation with same. I dunno whether the treatment for Neo-Dissociation and Classic Dissociation should be the same, but I do think that they should be classified as separate problems. I suppose that’s what the DMS-IV folks were trying to do with the DDNOS diagnosis, but that’s not quite hitting the mark for me.
I’m not familiar with the DMS-IV, but I do know that there’s a difference between "adult onset dissociation" and "childhood onset dissociation" in some of the literature I’ve read. Thanks, Swiv … your posts always resonate with me, even if I can’t always articulate a semi-reasonable response. But this is a kinda chance to explore "where I’m at" with this all at the moment. Of course, if you ask me tomorrow, you might want to call me by a different name in order to get an answer …. Laurels
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Hey swiv, well said. There is a book around here *rummage rummage* which I can’t find right now that talks alot about what you are saying here. One thing the author mentions is that in the past (like Freud’s time) life overall was simpler (less technology, less interaction with the rest of the world, less stuff learned by the average person, etc.) so the idea of ‘trauma’ was simpler. I equate it to the modern problems with saving preemie babies. Sure it’s a great thing, but then they have problems. In the past, preemie babies didn’t live, so there weren’t those problems. People are under more/different stress now days than in the past, so their reactions are different. What I would find common place a person from the 18th century would totally freak at (ie. tv), and what that person would find common place, _I_ would freak at (ie. outside bathrooms *ick!*) Using the impetigo example, people nowdays are more educated about diseases and so might handle this differently, but this person might have had so little education as to think that the other person was ‘possessed’ or something. *shrug* If I thought I was dealing with someone ‘possessed’ _I’d_ consider it traumatic! (esp. as a child!) The book I can’t remember right now talked about how the incidence and actual definition of multiplicity has changed over time. People in Freud’s day had more hysterical symptoms, dragged religion into it more, and had different types of alters. So, the ‘disorder’ of multiplicity is different over time because the culture it is evolving in is different. This of course can be seen with other problems as well, btw. People used to get schizophrenia and get locked up forever and forgotten. Now there are meds that make it more controllable and manageable for many people. The whole presentation of schizophrenia is _very_ different than it was in the past. In fact, there are things that used to be labeled as schizophrenia that aren’t even the same thing at all! Now that we can differentiate better we can tell this. Rainbow Colors (Jill) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – There are also some diagnostic tools (structured interviews) that therapist can use to aid in making a correct diagnosis. FWIW, I think it’d be pretty hard to trust the results of a DID/MPD diagnostic test if you’ve been reading this newsgroup or other sources of info on the topic. It’d be pretty hard *not* to start exhibiting a few dissoid symptoms if you did a little reading and found a few similarities between yourself and folks with the dx. When you feel bad and you don’t know why, you start looking for answers. Sometimes you just want *any* diagnosis, because if a problem can be named, then there must be a solution to that problem, eh? I, for one, would love to be able to "prove" to myself that I either am or am not DID. But it’s too late to take a diagnostic test. I could easily "fake" the results, either consciously or unconsciously. The results would be contaminated by my knowledge of the signs and symptoms. The results would be contaminated by whether I "wanted" the dx on the day I completed the interview. sw And yeah, I got the dx. And yeah, I think it is wrong. Most days. And then little things happen that make me think the dx is correct. And then I think I’m fooling myself just so I’ll have a diagnosis to which I can cling, because I can’t bear the thought of going back to Ground Zero without even a name for my constellation of problems. I don’t think it’s all that harmful to be misdiagnosed MPD, though. My personal opinion is that most psychological problems (except for the biological ones) are the result of different compartments of our minds being unable to communicate with each other. Thinking of unwanted emotions and desires as "alters" isn’t so bad, if it helps to bring some of that unconscious garbage to the forefront. I mean, what is psychotherapy if not a process of "going inside" and asking the "parts" to express themselves? The only time the diagnosis gets dicey is when it’s in the hands of naive clinicians, most of them well-meaning, who assume that dissociative tendencies are necessarily the result of chronic childhood trauma of the highest order. That can be kind of tricky. A hundred years ago, an eminent clinician named Pierre Janet did some of the first and best work on dissociative disorders. Many current experts on the topic still refer to his musings as insightful and worthwhile. One of his best-known cases was a young woman whose "trauma" turned out to be that she had to sleep next to a girl with impetigo when she was six years old. I’m not poo-pooing this woman’s problems. She had all kinds of things wrong with her, including hysterical blindness and facial paralysis on the side of her head that laid next to the sick girl. I believe that her situation was traumatic to her. If she were diagnosed today, though, I think a lot of therapists would automatically assume that there was massive physical or sexual or emotional abuse on the part of her parents or other important adults in her life. I’m starting to believe that there are two types of "dissociative disorders"–the Classic type, spawned during early childhood in response to severe and repeated trauma, and the Neo type, which has more to do with inborn creative/spacey/suggestible personality characteristics mixed with a childhood that wasn’t so hot, but couldn’t be described as "traumatic". I dunno whether the treatment for Neo-Dissociation and Classic Dissociation should be the same, but I do think that they should be classified as separate problems. I suppose that’s what the DMS-IV folks were trying to do with the DDNOS diagnosis, but that’s not quite hitting the mark for me.
– I am in the process of becoming, so this space is blank.
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If traumatic childhood were all it took to be mp, then I would be. I am highly suggestible. I find myself calling myself "we". I’ve noticed myself naming sides of myself (Miss Perfectionist being the latest one). But as hard as I search I know my experience is not the same. The closest I can get to dissociation is the idea of "coming back," as I read someone describe it. It’s what I call "going into my head." I kind of detach from what’s going on around me, but I never go away entirely. choddie — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
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ANON-Name: Chiquitita (seems to be possible again *sigh*) : i think as trauma survivors we all share the syptons of p.t.s.d. therefore : we should all be classified under that main heading,but then it should be : expanded upon by say p.t.s.d #1 and #2 and on and on to include increased : dissociation on the spectrum leading from the most minor up to the most : shattered This makes a heck of a lot of sense, Caroline. Thinking about what you say, I don’t think there’s a single person here who doesn’t show symptoms of PTSD or have a diagnosis of PTSD, regardless of what else is going on with them.
I agree with both of you and would like to add my "piece of wood" I cling to when I get confused about all this diagnosis stuff. It’s what Chrystine Oksana wrote in "Safe Passage to Healing". In the sub-chapter "Clinical Diagnoses" she writes (page 109): "Regardless of which way or ways a child splits, the mechanism of repression and dissociation and therefore the basic approaches to treatment are the same. Recognizing this, the current trend among professionals is to group survivor post-traumatic reactions under a single umbrella that may soon get its own name." And at the end of the chapter she writes in her Summary (page 113): "Accident survivors who suffered physical tramas have been treated with care, support, medical help, and kindness. This is the environment in which healing takes place. No one would dream of suggesting that a survivor of a plane crash is somehow defective – quite the opposite. Survivors of childhood trauma deserve at least as much. In a loving and supportive environment, where their pain is recognized and validated, survivors can heal." Wishing this environment for all of you, Viktoria — How everything in life comes down to this at last surviving and living, determined not to give in (Agnetha, I’m still alive) — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
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thankyou c [pope] and chiquitita too ya i do feel smart and pretty d*mn coherant the last few days and loving it!!!!! love caroline[feeling quite intergrated today,also hearing roaring laughter inside to that statement but so what] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – : jumping in on this late in the game when i was 17 i wasd misdiagnosised : and medicated at new york hospital/payne whitney pysch center they said : ambultory schizophrenia and organic brain damage [b*ll s*t] : the next shrink behaviorally pulled me together and off the streets/i spun : off functional external parts got married age 20 ,and lived the next 2 : decades self harming and hiding,plus being abused by ex husband : 5 years ago had a break down/or actually break thru to coawareness started : to be treated by those more familar with mpd/did : and thru increased coawareness am on the road to healing,out of abusive : marriage and sex self harm is much more uncontrol and on a good : antidepressents[the other stuff stinks] : in my opinion hospitals from my day were and still are full of : misdiagnosised dissociatives that are being considered untreatable : schizophreics [that can only be treated and maintained by drug therapy] : again i say b*ll most of these people are trauma based victims mistreated : and diagnosised and far far worse mismedicated and treated so harshly thru : the system the actually become pyschotic and more permanently damaged : just lucky for me i got away in time : i may have spent the next 2 decades locked away in my own prison : hospital,but at least now i can get out of mine : i personally think it was high time the whole diagnostic system was changed : the only defintion in the dsm that makes any sense at at is the one on : post traumatic stress syndrome : i think as trauma survivors we all share the syptons of p.t.s.d. therefore : we should all be classified under that main heading,but then it should be : expanded upon by say p.t.s.d #1 and #2 and on and on to include increased : dissociation on the spectrum leading from the most minor up to the most : shattered This makes a heck of a lot of sense, Caroline. Thinking about what you say, I don’t think there’s a single person here who doesn’t show symptoms of PTSD or have a diagnosis of PTSD, regardless of what else is going on with them. : by classifing us all on a chart of this nature not only would it make it : all less confusing and more uniform ,but it would also remove the terrible : stigma of society connected to mpd/and did too/plus it is also : frighteneing to newly diagnosised patients : sh*t we are all coming from such a similar place,we were all children : [different ages of onset of abuse,different genders,and backrounds] some : more pysically abused some mentally,and most sexual abuse too but we are : all traumatized children for god sakes,and our own anxiety levels and body : chemistry has been screwed up. if we can get those parts to stop being : scared,know the war is over and come out of the ditches and into the sun : and look around and not be so scared well then the chemicals would stop : pumping and the hallucinations and anxietys would subside : i am tired i just want this all to be over with ,enough is enough : already,i have gotta try to make it safe enough for them so they can : finally all come out and be free Caroline, I think you have found so much wisdom in the last year. I hope the same as you, for you, for me, for everyone, for all those wounded kids. Thanks so much for writing this. I could really hear it and feel it. Thank you, my friend. – C — Pope C the Anonymous "he said he is afraid of people. there can be nothing more worthy of fear." – kaitem
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Jeff Vineburg asked how bipolar can look like MPD. Here’s how the misdiagnosis often happens: the therapist asks if the person has mood swings and the person says yes. Then the person describes periods of high and low mood that seem to come out of the blue, and have been going on for some time. Some of the behavior during these periods may be extreme, such as self-destructive actions or sexual acting-out. The therapist then NEGLECTS to assess for dissociative symptoms, and treats the mood swings as if that were the whole problem. Bingo, the patient goes out the door with lithium or depakote; end of story–for a while… Peter — Peter M. Barach, Ph.D., Clinical Psychologist 5851 Pearl Road, Suite 305 Parma Heights, Ohio 44130 voice: 216-845-9011 (press 6 if you get voice mail) fax: 216-845-9013
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disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There Could you please tell me how bipolar can look like MPD? My SO was mis-diagnosed BP. Thanks.
I would have to say that bipolar doesn’t look like MPD as much as the manic bits of the anxiety and PTSD stuff look like bipolar. Sometimes when I used to try to fight the switching (although I didn’t know that was what was going on of course:) I would refuse to sleep and I would stay very very _very_ busy. People said I acted manic. When I am having alot of trouble with anxiety and panic I get very hyper and manic. It has to do with the chemicals released by the anxiety (ex. adrenalin). In addition, when I am feeling depressed but don’t want to feel that way I get very very busy so I can ‘ignore’ it. This looks to outsiders like mania. Add to that anything I might say about feeling depressed and you can get the label bipolar. Finally, a big part of the problem is that some of the overall symptoms of ‘being moody’ or ‘changable’ can look to someone like the person is up and down over and over. People who used to say I was doing these things didn’t realize they were just experiencing switching and different alters. This included psychiatrists, btw. Rainbow Colors (Jill) — I am in the process of becoming, so this space is blank.
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disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There Could you please tell me how bipolar can look like MPD? My SO was mis-diagnosed BP. Thanks.
I was once diagnosed as bipolar and treated with psychotropic medications, first lithium and then depakote. The way my bipolar looked like MPD was primarily in the mood swings. I can remember switching and describing it as all of a sudden falling off of the edge of the earth. And sometimes it was rapid cycling, but it was really rapid switching. I think it takes knowledge, practice, and really knowing the client to be able to discern the difference. BTW, the medications did not do anything to help these rapid swings/switches. I know you’re not suppposed to base the diagnosis by the effectiveness of the medications used, *but* lithium and depakote really do help people who have bipolar disorders. In retrospect, I remember these mood swings and exactly what they feel/felt like and I can tell you that they were switches in personality and *not* mood swings. Faith – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – http://www.op.net/~jeffv http://www.netaxs.com/~nukefish lefty guitar info, musical humor song parodies, as heard on Stern show Joe Cocker Spaniel’s page
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spoilered for discussion of abuse
Also spoilered for a discussion of clinician doubts about dissoids’ self-reports, which I know can trigger a lot of ppl – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -1 2 3 4 judges, assume that you are probably a bad parent if you have a DD. I wish Kluft had not published his speculations about this. I know that it’s important for other clinicians to know this and I would have published my anecdotal material about ppl with DID as parents if I were Kluft, too, but it is very pernicious for those of us who are parents and who are doing a good job." What he did was to summarize data from his own practice, I believe, about what his DID patients told him about their parenting. When you add up the percentages from this sample, about 45% of the people with DID were describing themselves as impaired parents, "Impairment" includes those who admitted abusing their own children, plus those who neglected their children in various ways. This is a very specific and limited sample, and it’s also based on self-report. This means that some people likely thought they were worse parents than they actually were, while others likely did not disclose some abusive behavior (concealing it from themselves and/or the therapist). The data is flawed, but it’s all that’s out there.
You clearly know the literature and the field much better than I do. I didn’t read Kluft’s study, only his own summary thereof. (However, I suspect that many clinicians and judges and others will not read his study either. They might not even read Kluft’s own summary of his study, but I bet many of them read other materials that cite it.) I was basing my comments on my memory of what Kluft wrote. Prompted by curiosity as a result of your reply and its pretty much but not quite jibing with what I remembered, I looked up what I’d read: [F]or the patient who is or who may become a parent, integration is highly desirable. I [Kluft] studied 75 mothers with MPD. [citation] Although 38.7% (n=29) were good or exceptional parents, the remainder, *who*universally*described*themselves*as*good*mothers* , *gave*self-reports*divergent*with*reality* (emphasis added). [Query as to how Kluft knew that their self-reports about their parenting were divergent with reality, but I assume that he had a fairly good basis for this assessment. However, Kluft seems to be saying that his data was *not* based upon self-report; if it were, I think he would have said that their self-reports were contradictory instead of that they were divergent with reality, since I can't think of a reason to believe one self-report over another unless one of the self-reports was somehow corroborated by other evidence. I assume that he based the following on some external evidence independent of the clients' self-reports, although obviously I don't know (but if he based it solely on self-reports, I'd like to know his basis for believing one self-report over another one):] A minority, 16% (n=12), were frankly abusive. [snipped a brief summary of the abuse] However, the remainder – nearly half (n=34) – were sufficiently impaired by their amnesias and inconsistencies across alters to be quite compromised as parents, *despite* *their*conviction*this*was*not*the*case* (emphasis added). They absented themselves, failed to protect the children, and often injured them by their inconsistency and MPD-oriented behaviors. Furthermore, for a child to build his or her psychic structure via identification with an MPD parent is suboptimal. R.P. Kluft, "Clinical Approaches to the Integration of Personalities" in _Clinical Perspectives on Multiple Personality Disorder_, ed. by R.P. Kluft and C.G. Fine, Am. Psychiatric Press (1993). I take Kluft’s last remark to mean that no one with DID can be a really good parent, although obviously Kluft believed that almost 40% of the mothers studied were "good or exceptional." I guess I’m confused about these two somewhat discrepant, although not contradictory, comments. It’s OK. I get confused a lot. (: Also, my concern about Kluft’s comments above was that many ppl who have a lot of power over dissoids’ lives will remember mostly that: (1) Kluft thought that most of the DID mothers in his sample were not good parents; (2) Kluft apparently did not believe his patients’ self-reports, leading many ppl to doubt much of what a dissoid tells them about their own parenting, among other things.(Not that I’m suggesting that he necessarily should have believed the self-reports, although it would have been helpful if he would have summarized the type of evidence that had led him to disbelieve them so that others could evaluate and be guided by - or disagree with – his beliefs re: what evidence is needed to confirm or deny self-reports. Perhaps that evidence was discussed in the original article, although I don’t think that most clinicians will read this article since it was written in _Child Abuse and Neglect_ (? – sorry, I’m not familiar with the journal and so don’t know if I have the correct name) almost 10 years ago.) ; and (3) his concluding remark to the effect that any DID parent is "suboptimal" (since presumably children will build their psychic structures based in part on identification with each of their parents). I’m not suggesting that this is what Kluft would want them to believe. I’m just summarizing my own observations about what ppl in RL tend to believe and how professional writing can be used to reinforce stereotypes. (Obviously, the n is small, even if one includes the experiences of some of the ppl who have posted about their RL experiences here. And it’s based entirely on self-report. 
I also wish that there would be some recent, independently-generated (i.e., non-clinical), data on the question of how frequently and in what ways DDs or other abused or neglected ppl (although it would be helpful if these groups were broken down by various categories like dx, if known; type and extent of abuse suffered by the parent, if known; etc.) abuse their kids, preferably compared to ppl who were not abused or neglected. It would also be helpful to me to have such data concerning the efficacy of therapy or other experiences (e.g., self-help groups, moving away from one’s perps, education, religious experiences, a good support network, or any other experiences that some ppl find helpful in not abusing or neglecting their children). However, any data is appreciated, esp. if it’s fairly accurate. <g Kluft’s anecdotal data should NOT be taken to mean that a particular dissociative person should be assumed to be a bad parent. Each case should be evaluated on its own merits. The data do suggest, however, that there is a not-negligible *risk* for abusive or neglectful behavior by dissociative people. This should hardly come as a surprise to anyone whose abusive parent or perp was dissociative.
I agree with all of the above. And, for everyone’s info (including Peter’s), I’m not trying to dis either Peter or Kluft. I admire the work of both. (Nor do I expect a response from Peter or anyone else, although I always like one – from anyone – when I post something. 
I’m just confused and seeking clarification. (: Also I like to bs with ppl who know more than I do about a topic (which is almost anyone about almost anything ;). e — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
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First of all, thanks for a *great*, incisive post. And yeah, I got the dx. And yeah, I think it is wrong. Most days.
Even with an apparently wonderful understanding of this coping mechanism, folks continue to doubt. I don’t think it’s all that harmful to be misdiagnosed MPD,
Hell, in some cases it’s a relief. Now it has a name and a course of treatment. though. My personal opinion is that most psychological problems (except for the biological ones) are the result of different compartments of our minds being unable to communicate with each other.
Tremendous. Thinking of unwanted emotions and desires as "alters" isn’t so bad, if it helps to bring some of that unconscious garbage to the forefront. I mean, what is psychotherapy if not a process of "going inside" and asking the "parts" to express themselves?
In attempting to understand DID, I sorta came across this concept. When my SO gets mad, someone else comes out to handle that. When I get mad, I’m trying to stop and not `talk’, but understand that `part’ and why my reaction was this way. I guess DID and SPD are an interesting comparison in that light. (unless I’m totally out in space) best-known cases was a young woman whose "trauma" turned out to be that she had to sleep next to a girl with impetigo when she was six years old.
Interesting. If she were diagnosed today, though, I think a lot of therapists would automatically assume that there was massive physical or sexual or emotional abuse on the part of her parents or other important adults in her life.
The one DID therp I know wouldn’t let this interfere. She seems to think it’s more important to foster communications between the parts. I’m starting to believe that there are two types of "dissociative disorders"–the Classic type, spawned during early childhood in response to severe and repeated trauma, and the Neo type, which has more to do with inborn creative/spacey/suggestible personality characteristics mixed with a childhood that wasn’t so hot, but couldn’t be described as "traumatic".
Aren’t all children naturally spacey, and only develop SPD as they grow up? I dunno whether the treatment for Neo-Dissociation and Classic Dissociation should be the same, but I do think that they should be classified as separate problems. I suppose that’s what the DMS-IV folks were trying to do with the DDNOS diagnosis, but that’s not quite hitting the mark for me.
Nah, DDNOS was probably invented by some committee made up of urologists and gyn’s :) http://www.op.net/~jeffv http://www.netaxs.com/~nukefish lefty guitar info, musical humor song parodies, as heard on Stern show Joe Cocker Spaniel’s page
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Spoilered for discussion of sexist and anti-DID bias by clinicians. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 writes: Also I like to bs with ppl who know more than I do about a topic (which is almost anyone about almost anything ;). e Verna writes: well, that was a good example of bs, but i don’t buy it! <G
Aw, c’mon. It’s free! (BTW, Verna, I was LOL at some of your comments on the Jello thread, but didn’t get a chance to reply.) – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Verna writes: i have a problem with the male-oriented psych world when they make pronouncements regarding females, especially around areas of abuse. i confess to this bias from inside my own experience. but there was freud and his penis envy, and things haven’t generally gotten much better since. it is a commonly held belief amongst people in the RW and people amongst the mental health care world that people who have any form of mental illness are unfit people, let alone unfit parents. as a registered nurse and an mp, i have personal knowledge of both sides of the fence. i do not have a study. i don’t really need one. peter may be a good guy. on the other hand, he may be a misogynist in helper’s clothing. i reserve judgement. but as a female in a patriarchal society, i am always on guard. please note how many of the subjects in the study heretofore quoted were female.
I agree with what you say (and am glad that you’ve joined the discussion – I like your posts). That’s what troubles me. I wonder if Kluft doubted his patients bc their SOs (who were probably all or at least overwhelmingly male) disagreed with them. This is outside evidence that one would fairly accept as invalidating a client’s self-report? Why? It is itself implicitly a self-report, and frequently a self-serving one (bc it tends to exonerate the SO from any problems a child may be having and implies that the SO is a good parent, unlike the patient). I doubt that Kluft knew the SOs well enough to determine that their reports were any more likely to be accurate than his clients’ (if this is some of the evidence that he used). If this was the evidence that Kluft used to invalidate his clients’ self-reports, it is clearly sexist and biased against DID patients (which bias is also sexist, since women are overwhelmingly the ones dxed with DID in most outpatient practices). That’s why I wish that Kluft would have summarized the evidence he used to determine that his clients’ self-reports weren’t credible. I hope that Kluft had better evidence than the reports of his clients’ SOs, but I wonder how he obtained it otherwise. It is possible that over half of the patients studied had been determined to be inadequate parents by the local child protective services, but if that were the case, I’d question the randomness of Kluft’s sample since that’s an extraordinarily high percentage of patients to have been investigated, let alone found to be abusive or negligent, by local authorities. Also, given what I know about child protective ppl and their biases, I’d question whether their findings were based at least as much on sexist and anti-DID prejudices as on what was actually occurring in a family. e — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
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writes: Also I like to bs with ppl who know more than I do about a topic (which is almost anyone about almost anything ;). e
well, that was a good example of bs, but i don’t buy it! <G i have a problem with the male-oriented psych world when they make pronouncements regarding females, especially around areas of abuse. i confess to this bias from inside my own experience. but there was freud and his penis envy, and things haven’t generally gotten much better since. it is a commonly held belief amongst people in the RW and people amongst the mental health care world that people who have any form of mental illness are unfit people, let alone unfit parents. as a registered nurse and an mp, i have personal knowledge of both sides of the fence. i do not have a study. i don’t really need one. peter may be a good guy. on the other hand, he may be a misogynist in helper’s clothing. i reserve judgement. but as a female in a patriarchal society, i am always on guard. please note how many of the subjects in the study heretofore quoted were female.
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actually, i just want to see if this new server will let me send posts to my favorite asd-er. hope it works!
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disorders *and* who have enough clinical experience to recognize conditions that look like dissociative disorders but are actually something else–for example, schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. There
Could you please tell me how bipolar can look like MPD? My SO was mis-diagnosed BP. Thanks. http://www.op.net/~jeffv http://www.netaxs.com/~nukefish lefty guitar info, musical humor song parodies, as heard on Stern show Joe Cocker Spaniel’s page
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i grouped a bunch of stuff into one post: You might be interested in reading about Psychosynthesis by Roberto Assagioli the Italian psychiatrist. he wrote about everyone having
"sub-personalities". I have found his writings comforting on days when I did not feel the dx was
appropriate. I bet this is the book my brother read when he told me about having sub-personalities. My brother names his. Does the author talk about that? In retrospect, I remember these mood swings and exactly what they feel/felt like and I can tell you that they were switches in personality and *not* mood swings.
This is interesting to me, the idea that switching could feel like a mood shift. More subtle than I’d imagined, I guess. i think as trauma survivors we all share the syptons of p.t.s.d. therefore we should all be classified under that main heading,but then it should be expanded upon by say p.t.s.d #1 and #2 and on and on to include increased dissociation on the spectrum leading from the most minor up to the most shattered This makes a heck of a lot of sense, Caroline. Thinking about what you say, I don’t think there’s a single person here who doesn’t show symptoms of PTSD or have a diagnosis of PTSD, regardless of what else is going on with them.
I read some author who said PTSD was a dissociative disorder and talked about dissociation on a scale (don’t remember the author – I was browsing at the bookstore). I think it was also his theory that the capability for dissociating may be genetic. i have gotta try to make it safe enough for them so they can finally all come out and be free
This struck a chord with me. Nothing more to say. choddie — For more information about this service, send e-mail to:
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i was diagnosed bipolar too. willo
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