Question:
Hi Whatatrip and thank you. Perhaps I am in need of placing blame on something, anything, for my son’s OCD. I actually take some solace in thinking it’s a chemical imbalance that is probably genetic and therefore not preventable. That it would have been triggered by something sometime only maybe it wouldn’t be so bad if it had been triggered by something less traumatizing. It seems only recently that I’ve been able to get even a little philosophical about it. Prior to this it’s been a fast track to treatment to get him functioning well enough to be able to get on with his life and go to college. No time to think about the possible whys or wherefores. I believe it might be time for me to expand my thinking a bit. Cindy – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -whatatrip wrote: > "Cindy" <t…@voyager.net> wrote in message > news:39ddd66a$0$35017$2c3edae7@news.voyager.net… > > Hi, > > A little help, please. I am really trying to understand this > > perspective and I believe I’ve found my stumbling block. I believe that > > my son was manipulated by his OCD brain. At 18 he was still doing > > things that became part of rituals when he was 4. > Yes, by the time someone develops OCD, OCD does manipulate us. Much of OCD > is habit and some habits are very hard to break if, at one time, they served > a purpose or they continue to serve a purpose. We are controlled by our > brain but that doesn’t mean the brain can’t be changed. Most children engage > in OCD like behavior but "grow out of it". Why some continue in this > behavior is a good question. I think there are many different kinds of OCD > and causes so finding the answer is very individualized. Some are simple bad > habits. From time to time, I still catch myself counting lug nuts on car > wheels or window panes. It does not bother me but I know it is a bad habit > that I had depended upon in the past to distract myself when my "thinking" > would escalate to the point where I had physical symptoms of being "wired". > It help to calm me by counting and it is distracting. Others kinds of OCD > are more than just a bad habit, they are so integrated into our lives, that > it is a way of life. And it certainly does seem to be genetic because it is > so engrained but there is no good evidence that it is genetic. I’m talking > about OCD as defined as a disorder. OCD like behavior is so prevalent in > humans that I liken it to the difference between sadness (ocd like behavior) > and clinical depression (an ocd diagnosis). If ordinary sadness goes on and > on, there is a likelyhood that clinical depression will develop. I don’t > like the diabetes analogy because there is no way to test for ocd and there > is no test because the experts don’t know what ocd is beyond how it has > been defined and that definition is based on behavior. There is no medical > test for ocd. A lot of people with ocd don’t develop it until much later in > life. I think the capability to "ocd" is "normal". Some fine it useful early > in life and continue to use it while others don’t really "get into it" until > the shit hits the fan. > > Of course, it wasn’t > > until he was 18 that he discovered through therapy, how to manipulate > > his own brain to gain back some control. Gareth’s post seemed so > > negative to me. I read it to mean that OCDers use their illness to > > manipulate people and environments and that they use their compulsions > > to do so. I hesitantly agree with this BUT doing compulsions brings no > > joy to the person with OCD. In fact, my son HATES it. > I’ve found that no matter how much I hated my ocd behavior and ocd thinking, > it was the only way I knew to how to handle life, the problems of life and > it’s stesses. I think the obsessive part of ocd is a way of making sense of > our world and putting it into some kind of order. Obsessions can be anxiety > relievers particularly if they are of the mental compulsion variety. > Compulsions are anxiety relievers, either in response to an environmental > stress or the anxiety created by obsessions that didn’t relieve anxiety. > There is one thing that is common to both obsessions and compulsions, and > that is need to relieve anxiety. It’s almost like a drug addict who needs a > fix. Something must be done to get rid of this anxiety. In the process of > ocding, other people and the percieved environment can be manipulated. > Manipulation can be done in lots of ways and ocd is just one of them. The > important aspect of this manipulation is the question of why it is being > done. Manipulation is just one way of looking it. I think most people think > of manipulation in terms of getting pleasure rather than considering that > moving away from pain and discomfort is another reason for manipulation. > I can only guess what was in Garth’s mind when he tried to give his > perspective but I can identify with it. I have used OCD to manipulate my > environment and other people. And what is worse, I didn’t even know I was > doing it. I didn’t know what ocd was until I was 48 years old. I just knew > things had to be a certain way for me to be ok. I didn’t feel ok with myself > or within myself, so what was external to me had to be "ok", that is how I > defined myself. What was crap to me, was talk about inner peace, knowing > yourself, understanding and acception, "healthy" life styles, good > interpersonal skills, good social skills, etc., etc,. None of those things > were a part of my way of dealing with the world. I knew what Iearned and I > learned hard work, excellence, follow the rules, determination, be good, > don’t get into trouble, etc., etc., I recall you mentioning a time that > your son was having a hard time doing his CBT "homework" and you (I imagine) > sat with him, read some of the book together and he calmed down. That is a > good example of how we learn to calm ourselves If someone is "with" us > (physically, emotionally, mentally and "tuned in"), understands what is > going on, and is willing to go through it with us. Of course if that person > is off the wall themselves, that is what will be learned. I see ocd as a > symptom of something else going on, it is a reaction to some stressor. > > It’s the term > > manipulation and insinuating that the OCD person is getting what they > > want through manipulation. As if they were in full control and reaching > > a positive goal. > I suspect the ocd person is getting some relief from anxiety or avoiding > something that is anxiety provoking. It is very hard to identify just what > is causing all the anxiety and the reasons for the anxiety are many. The > problem with ocd is that by the time it is diagnosable ocd, it is out of > control. I think ocd is a way of trying to get control or maintain control. > THe problem is that either being in control gets out of control or whatever > it is that a person is trying to control is not controllable or out of their > control. > > The person is getting what their OCD tells them they > > have to have. There is no joy in that. I manipulate my environment for > > my own pleasure and comfort and mostly succeed. > I have no doubt that you also manipulate your environment and others to > avoid pain and discomfort. That is one way of getting your needs, wants and > desires met. Your brain is telling you what your needs, wants and desires > are. Some are instinctual, some are learned. We all move away from pain and > discomfort in the best way we can given the circumstances. > > My son has manipulated > > his environment and perhaps even people to try to meet OCD demands that > > can never be satisfied. Overcoming OCD has been the result of the work > > of a good behavior therapist and my son’s desire to get well. Not > > figuring out who or what was being manipulated. To me, that phraseology > > belongs with the psychotherapies not the behavior therapies. The actual > > trigger (event) for Shaun’s OCD will undoubtedly be dealt with through > > talk therapy eventually, but it is a separate issue. > I assume the triggering event was traumatic. That is another, and maybe the > most prevalent, trigger for the onset of ocd. I’ve talked to a lot of ocders > and trauma is right up there at the top of triggers. When it comes to ocd I > think it is important to deal with the anxiety and stress and recongnize > that OCD doesn’t just come out of the blue, there is usually a good reason > for it. Stress and anxiety from chronic long term environmental situations > or stress and anxiety from a lack of leaning how to deal with stress and > anxiety can be just as bad as stress and anxiety from a trauma. I think it > is the level of stress and anxiety experienced that overwhelms and results > in behavior like ocd. > > I wish they could > > be done together with the same therapist, but that’s not the way it > > works. > No, it isn’t the way it is done and I have thought about this a lot. I don’t > think any one therapist could do it. A behavioral therapist will place > "demands" on a person to change behavior and that, it is theorized, will > change a person’s beliefs and the way they perceive events. A good > psychotherapist/psychoanalyis will help the person develop those aspects of > their personality and mental world that are lacking or causing them > trouble. Some ocd people, maybe most, don’t accept demands or perceived > demands very well. What they want and need is to understand themselves, be > understood and find ways of coming to terms with the world is a less anxiety > ridden way. One therapist/ocd sufferer I know said he believes most would do > better in BT if they had had psychotherapy first. Some just can’t do the BT > and for others, BT becomes the new "ritual" and for still others, it doesn’t > do anything long term. > > How far apart are we from understanding each other? I really want to > > figure this out. > > Thanks, > > Cindy > I did view ocd as you seem to, as some kind of controlling force or
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Response:
Hi, A little help, please. I am really trying to understand this perspective and I believe I’ve found my stumbling block. I believe that my son was manipulated by his OCD brain. At 18 he was still doing things that became part of rituals when he was 4. Of course, it wasn’t until he was 18 that he discovered through therapy, how to manipulate his own brain to gain back some control. Gareth’s post seemed so negative to me. I read it to mean that OCDers use their illness to manipulate people and environments and that they use their compulsions to do so. I hesitantly agree with this BUT doing compulsions brings no joy to the person with OCD. In fact, my son HATES it. It’s the term manipulation and insinuating that the OCD person is getting what they want through manipulation. As if they were in full control and reaching a positive goal. The person is getting what their OCD tells them they have to have. There is no joy in that. I manipulate my environment for my own pleasure and comfort and mostly succeed. My son has manipulated his environment and perhaps even people to try to meet OCD demands that can never be satisfied. Overcoming OCD has been the result of the work of a good behavior therapist and my son’s desire to get well. Not figuring out who or what was being manipulated. To me, that phraseology belongs with the psychotherapies not the behavior therapies. The actual trigger (event) for Shaun’s OCD will undoubtedly be dealt with through talk therapy eventually, but it is a separate issue. I wish they could be done together with the same therapist, but that’s not the way it works. How far apart are we from understanding each other? I really want to figure this out. Thanks, Cindy
Response:
"Cindy" <t…@voyager.net> wrote in message
news:39ddd66a$0$35017$2c3edae7@news.voyager.net… > Hi, > A little help, please. I am really trying to understand this > perspective and I believe I’ve found my stumbling block. I believe that > my son was manipulated by his OCD brain. At 18 he was still doing > things that became part of rituals when he was 4.
Yes, by the time someone develops OCD, OCD does manipulate us. Much of OCD is habit and some habits are very hard to break if, at one time, they served a purpose or they continue to serve a purpose. We are controlled by our brain but that doesn’t mean the brain can’t be changed. Most children engage in OCD like behavior but "grow out of it". Why some continue in this behavior is a good question. I think there are many different kinds of OCD and causes so finding the answer is very individualized. Some are simple bad habits. From time to time, I still catch myself counting lug nuts on car wheels or window panes. It does not bother me but I know it is a bad habit that I had depended upon in the past to distract myself when my "thinking" would escalate to the point where I had physical symptoms of being "wired". It help to calm me by counting and it is distracting. Others kinds of OCD are more than just a bad habit, they are so integrated into our lives, that it is a way of life. And it certainly does seem to be genetic because it is so engrained but there is no good evidence that it is genetic. I’m talking about OCD as defined as a disorder. OCD like behavior is so prevalent in humans that I liken it to the difference between sadness (ocd like behavior) and clinical depression (an ocd diagnosis). If ordinary sadness goes on and on, there is a likelyhood that clinical depression will develop. I don’t like the diabetes analogy because there is no way to test for ocd and there is no test because the experts don’t know what ocd is beyond how it has been defined and that definition is based on behavior. There is no medical test for ocd. A lot of people with ocd don’t develop it until much later in life. I think the capability to "ocd" is "normal". Some fine it useful early in life and continue to use it while others don’t really "get into it" until the shit hits the fan. > Of course, it wasn’t > until he was 18 that he discovered through therapy, how to manipulate > his own brain to gain back some control. Gareth’s post seemed so > negative to me. I read it to mean that OCDers use their illness to > manipulate people and environments and that they use their compulsions > to do so. I hesitantly agree with this BUT doing compulsions brings no > joy to the person with OCD. In fact, my son HATES it.
I’ve found that no matter how much I hated my ocd behavior and ocd thinking, it was the only way I knew to how to handle life, the problems of life and it’s stesses. I think the obsessive part of ocd is a way of making sense of our world and putting it into some kind of order. Obsessions can be anxiety relievers particularly if they are of the mental compulsion variety. Compulsions are anxiety relievers, either in response to an environmental stress or the anxiety created by obsessions that didn’t relieve anxiety. There is one thing that is common to both obsessions and compulsions, and that is need to relieve anxiety. It’s almost like a drug addict who needs a fix. Something must be done to get rid of this anxiety. In the process of ocding, other people and the percieved environment can be manipulated. Manipulation can be done in lots of ways and ocd is just one of them. The important aspect of this manipulation is the question of why it is being done. Manipulation is just one way of looking it. I think most people think of manipulation in terms of getting pleasure rather than considering that moving away from pain and discomfort is another reason for manipulation. I can only guess what was in Garth’s mind when he tried to give his perspective but I can identify with it. I have used OCD to manipulate my environment and other people. And what is worse, I didn’t even know I was doing it. I didn’t know what ocd was until I was 48 years old. I just knew things had to be a certain way for me to be ok. I didn’t feel ok with myself or within myself, so what was external to me had to be "ok", that is how I defined myself. What was crap to me, was talk about inner peace, knowing yourself, understanding and acception, "healthy" life styles, good interpersonal skills, good social skills, etc., etc,. None of those things were a part of my way of dealing with the world. I knew what Iearned and I learned hard work, excellence, follow the rules, determination, be good, don’t get into trouble, etc., etc., I recall you mentioning a time that your son was having a hard time doing his CBT "homework" and you (I imagine) sat with him, read some of the book together and he calmed down. That is a good example of how we learn to calm ourselves If someone is "with" us (physically, emotionally, mentally and "tuned in"), understands what is going on, and is willing to go through it with us. Of course if that person is off the wall themselves, that is what will be learned. I see ocd as a symptom of something else going on, it is a reaction to some stressor. > It’s the term > manipulation and insinuating that the OCD person is getting what they > want through manipulation. As if they were in full control and reaching > a positive goal.
I suspect the ocd person is getting some relief from anxiety or avoiding something that is anxiety provoking. It is very hard to identify just what is causing all the anxiety and the reasons for the anxiety are many. The problem with ocd is that by the time it is diagnosable ocd, it is out of control. I think ocd is a way of trying to get control or maintain control. THe problem is that either being in control gets out of control or whatever it is that a person is trying to control is not controllable or out of their control. > The person is getting what their OCD tells them they > have to have. There is no joy in that. I manipulate my environment for > my own pleasure and comfort and mostly succeed.
I have no doubt that you also manipulate your environment and others to avoid pain and discomfort. That is one way of getting your needs, wants and desires met. Your brain is telling you what your needs, wants and desires are. Some are instinctual, some are learned. We all move away from pain and discomfort in the best way we can given the circumstances. > My son has manipulated > his environment and perhaps even people to try to meet OCD demands that > can never be satisfied. Overcoming OCD has been the result of the work > of a good behavior therapist and my son’s desire to get well. Not > figuring out who or what was being manipulated. To me, that phraseology > belongs with the psychotherapies not the behavior therapies. The actual > trigger (event) for Shaun’s OCD will undoubtedly be dealt with through > talk therapy eventually, but it is a separate issue.
I assume the triggering event was traumatic. That is another, and maybe the most prevalent, trigger for the onset of ocd. I’ve talked to a lot of ocders and trauma is right up there at the top of triggers. When it comes to ocd I think it is important to deal with the anxiety and stress and recongnize that OCD doesn’t just come out of the blue, there is usually a good reason for it. Stress and anxiety from chronic long term environmental situations or stress and anxiety from a lack of leaning how to deal with stress and anxiety can be just as bad as stress and anxiety from a trauma. I think it is the level of stress and anxiety experienced that overwhelms and results in behavior like ocd. > I wish they could > be done together with the same therapist, but that’s not the way it > works.
No, it isn’t the way it is done and I have thought about this a lot. I don’t think any one therapist could do it. A behavioral therapist will place "demands" on a person to change behavior and that, it is theorized, will change a person’s beliefs and the way they perceive events. A good psychotherapist/psychoanalyis will help the person develop those aspects of their personality and mental world that are lacking or causing them trouble. Some ocd people, maybe most, don’t accept demands or perceived demands very well. What they want and need is to understand themselves, be understood and find ways of coming to terms with the world is a less anxiety ridden way. One therapist/ocd sufferer I know said he believes most would do better in BT if they had had psychotherapy first. Some just can’t do the BT and for others, BT becomes the new "ritual" and for still others, it doesn’t do anything long term. > How far apart are we from understanding each other? I really want to > figure this out. > Thanks, > Cindy
I did view ocd as you seem to, as some kind of controlling force or "brain defect", or genetic defect. That got me to the point where I could accept the condition and my behavior. And I still believe there is a genetic influence. Like a predisposition to experience more than a "normal amount of anxiety" or "blessed" with a very capable mind. You know, too good for your own good. It has taken years to develop, what I consider, to be a better understanding of what is going on. It really isn’t very simple and the researchers are finding that out. It is like the more you learn the more you find out how much you don’t know. But that is the human condition. You son sounds like he has a very good, active mind. Most ocders I have talked to have good active minds. I think we learn to use our good minds to think our way through our experiences when there are other ways of dealing with the world that would be better for us. — Take care of your "self". whatatrip rbol…@eburg.com —–= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =—– http://www.newsfeeds.com – The #1 Newsgroup Service in the … read more »
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