Question:
Peter breggin has a new book out "Talking back to Ritalin". I think he has gone over the edge. Book reports more than 2,700 adverse drug experiences. From hostility to blood disorders and hallucinations. I wonder who is having the hallucinations? Leo
Response:
Peter breggin has a new book out "Talking back to Ritalin". I think he has gone over the edge. Book reports more than 2,700 adverse drug experiences. From hostility to blood disorders and hallucinations. I wonder who is having the hallucinations? Leo
In general I have no use for Peter Breggin and his pet theories. However, my son DID have a very bad adverse reaction to Ritalin. He was only on the stuff for 4 days at a very low dose…but the reaction was bad enough that he had to be hospitalized while he switched from that to something else, due to suicidal ideations, hours-long crying jags, etc. There are millions of folks who have taken Ritalin; 2,700 adverse drug experiences with it would be a very small percentage indeed. But it CAN happen. Sometimes, like in my son’s case, the bad reaction to Ritalin was an early warning sign that he was Bipolar. Some folks with BP can handle Ritalin, but bad reactions are not unusual with BP individuals. But since ADHD is typically diagnosed at a younger age than BP, no one thinks of the BP possibility until after the bad Ritalin reaction. Vicki H.
Response:
writes: Peter breggin has a new book out "Talking back to Ritalin". I think he has gone over the edge. Book reports more than 2,700 adverse drug experiences. From hostility to blood disorders and hallucinations. I wonder who is having the hallucinations?
Howdy Leo: Breggin’s prejudices are well known to anyone who has an objective view of ADHD. He is anti-psychiatry, period. His wife is a $cientologi$t. Mark Probert LI, New York I will honor the privacy of email, and expect the same.
Response:
What makes ya say anti-psych? He’s in favour of psychotherapy, hardly an anti-pscyh line. Vic Jasin
No, Breggin is in favor of psychoANALYSIS, not solely psychotherapy. Psychoanalysis stems from the Freudian notions that if we just look into our background experiences long enough and hard enough, we will find the answers to our problems. Psychotherapy, on the other hand, looks at what today’s problems are and works on methods of dealing with them. That IS important. For example, with ADHD it IS important to learn techniques for focusing, for writing things down so they aren’t forgotten, etc. But contemplating whether your mother didn’t give you a hug one day when you were 18 months old is NOT going to do a darn thing about your ADHD. Vicki H.
Response:
writes: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – meunier) writes: Peter breggin has a new book out "Talking back to Ritalin". I think he has gone over the edge. Book reports more than 2,700 adverse drug experiences. From hostility to blood disorders and hallucinations. I wonder who is having the hallucinations? Howdy Leo: Breggin’s prejudices are well known to anyone who has an objective view of ADHD. He is anti-psychiatry, period. His wife is a $cientologi$t. Readin his book isn’t gonna mesmerise ya into Scientology Mark. What makes ya say anti-psych? He’s in favour of psychotherapy, hardly an anti-pscyh line. Now Dr. Szaz is a different story he IS anti-psych. So let me get this. Wife’s a Scientologist therefore Breggin must be anti-psych, is that how the conclusion is arrived at?
I overstated it, a bit. Breggin is pro-psychotherapy as you state. Of course, psychotherapy is much more expensive than medication and he sees a bigger buck. As for his wife and $cientology, no, reading the book will not do that. However, he has a real solid record with the $cientologists. Mark Probert LI, New York I will honor the privacy of email, and expect the same.
Response:
No, Breggin is in favor of psychoANALYSIS, not solely psychotherapy. Psychoanalysis stems from the Freudian notions that if we just look into our background experiences long enough and hard enough, we will find the answers to our problems. Psychotherapy, on the other hand, looks at what today’s problems are and works on methods of dealing with them. That IS important. For example, with ADHD it IS important to learn techniques for focusing, for writing things down so they aren’t forgotten, etc. But contemplating whether your mother didn’t give you a hug one day when you were 18 months old is NOT going to do a darn thing about your ADHD. Vicki H.
My god, what a gross mis-representation of the psychoanalytic method! Bear in mind that psychoanalysis can be remarkably effective when properly applied. One of my professors had a patient who was Dx’d schizophrenic. A few years of analysis, and this person was in total remission without any medication at all, and now holds a very important position in the government. I myself used psychoanalysis to overcome Bipolar disorder. I had responded well to Lithium, but hated the idea of taking that awful stuff for the rest of my life. I have been free of both symptoms and medications for ten years now, in spite of all the people who told me it was like diabetes and that Lithium would have to be my lifelong "insulin." I and this other person are not unique. No, there aren’t any useful statistical verifications, since it is so hard to incorporate psychoanalysis into them. So many factors are involved- did the patient attend four days a week for a few years? Was the person performing the analysis a fully trained analyst? (Mind you, that requires at least five years of post-doctoral training to achieve, so there just aren’t a hell of a lot of them out there to study). This makes statistical outcome studies difficult to do, and the ones that have been attempted are seriously flawed. Nonetheless, it is foolish to deride this incredibly sophisticated and effective approach. Of course, it’s not all that practical, since how many people could afford it? I was very, very lucky. If the HMOs were forced to acknowlege its efficacy and provide coverage, they’d lose a hell of a lot of money. Instead, they’d rather pay for short-term therapies and medication maintenance rather than providing something that might produce an actual cure. This is hellishly immoral, but that’s how things are these days. Since it is now known that adults who suffered untreated PTSD as children have substantial changes in the gross physical structure of the hippocampus, it would be idiotic to disregard traumatic childhood experiences in the aetiology of mental illness. Whether or not it could make ADDers have a "normal" brain, consider the value of examining and understanding the ways of thinking and attempts to cope that we developed growing up "different" from those around us. I re-entered analysis for a time after my diagnosis of ADD for this purpose. It was very helpful, and I cannot think of any other form of treatment that would have provided the same benefits. BTW, you can imagine how blown away I was when I entered my Clinical Ph.D. program years later and saw my own analyst’s books as part of the curriculum. Apparently he’s become one of the leading figures in the Object Relations approach. Anthony
Response:
But contemplating whether your mother didn’t give you a hug one day when you were 18 months old is NOT going to do a darn thing about your ADHD. Vicki H.
Hear, hear!. Shines
Response:
Peter breggin has a new book out "Talking back to Ritalin". I think he has gone over the edge. Book reports more than 2,700 adverse drug experiences. From hostility to blood disorders and hallucinations. I wonder who is having the hallucinations?
Well, first off, anything that’s attributed to the drug can become listed with the FDA as an Adverse Drug Reaction, I believe. You can say that you had excessive flatulence after eating your last six meals at taco bell and having taken Ritalin, and it can get made an Adverse Drug Reaction. As for "hostility", yeah, it can cause anxiety, or sleeplessness, which could both lead to hostility. (Are *ALL* of you folks out there nonhostile BC (Before Coffee)?) If it causes enough sleep loss, it can cause "hallucinations" aka REM rebound. Your body needs to sleep and dream, and if it doesn’t dream enough, it tries to dream while you’re awake. Basically, it’s sounding like the same old Breggin: lies, damn lies, and statistics. (And sometimes he even muffs the statistics.) — "Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in kidnergarten. Like: morality must exist beyond the purview of a deity if morality is to have a meaning beyond tyranny.
Response:
Hi; Why wouldn’t there be problems. Ritalin is used interchangeably with Cocaine in scientific studies. IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do you think so many kids are trying illegal drugs. Ritalin is sold on school campuses by kids who want money. They take for the same reason they buy cocaine….. Martha – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Peter breggin has a new book out "Talking back to Ritalin". I think he has gone over the edge. Book reports more than 2,700 adverse drug experiences. From hostility to blood disorders and hallucinations. I wonder who is having the hallucinations? Leo In general I have no use for Peter Breggin and his pet theories. However, my son DID have a very bad adverse reaction to Ritalin. He was only on the stuff for 4 days at a very low dose…but the reaction was bad enough that he had to be hospitalized while he switched from that to something else, due to suicidal ideations, hours-long crying jags, etc. There are millions of folks who have taken Ritalin; 2,700 adverse drug experiences with it would be a very small percentage indeed. But it CAN happen. Sometimes, like in my son’s case, the bad reaction to Ritalin was an early warning sign that he was Bipolar. Some folks with BP can handle Ritalin, but bad reactions are not unusual with BP individuals. But since ADHD is typically diagnosed at a younger age than BP, no one thinks of the BP possibility until after the bad Ritalin reaction. Vicki H.
Good Health, your friend, Martha
Response:
Why wouldn’t there be problems. Ritalin is used interchangeably with Cocaine in scientific studies. IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do you think so many kids are trying illegal drugs. Ritalin is sold on school campuses by kids who want money. They take for the same reason they buy cocaine….. Martha
Go away. Go directly away. Do not pass Go. Do not collect $200. Scammer! — Ann annbal*at*thecia.net-remove the 9 Spambot protection. Make the obvious change. Sorry.
Response:
Hi; Why wouldn’t there be problems. Ritalin is used interchangeably with Cocaine in scientific studies.
Of course, I am sure you can provide even *one* citation that substantiates this… IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do
I’m just curious, Martha: what PDR have you read? Here’s what causes me to ask that question–methylphenidate (Ritalin is CibaGeigy’s brand of the drug) is a central nervous system stimulant, chemically related to piperidine. It is the *polar opposite* of a narcotic. you think so many kids are trying illegal drugs. Ritalin is sold on school campuses by kids who want money. They take for the same reason they buy cocaine….. Martha
[snip] Good Health, your friend, Martha
Uh, Martha? The last time I looked, "friends" make an effort to be honest. This post from you stirkes me as being neither honest nor friendly. Joe Parsons — Please remove the "!" from my address to send me mail. I do not wish to receive *any* Unsolicited Commercial E-mail (UCE). I will consider that altering my address for the purpose of sending such unwanted mail is willful harassment. You *don’t* want to do that.
Response:
Boufford) writes: Hi;
Hi right back to you! Why wouldn’t there be problems. Ritalin is used interchangeably with Cocaine in scientific studies.
Oh??? I have read hundreds of studies of methylphenidate (that’s generic name for Ritalin) and have never, ever seen that. I even read studies of cocaine, and did not see the researchers substituting cocaine. Hmmm… IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do
A narcotic? According to the dictionary is something that helps sleep. Since methylphenidate is a central nervous stimulant, do you see a problem with your reading comprehension? you think so many kids are trying illegal drugs. Ritalin is sold on school campuses by kids who want money. They take for the same reason they buy cocaine…..
Oh??? and where are these school campuses? Why haven;t you reported this to the authorities? BTW, did you catch the movie on NBC last Wednesday night? Did you watch it to the end, or did you flip the channels? Oh, the movie was Clueless, and you probably forgot to read that disclaimer at the end where it said: "This is only a movie, do not make cluelessness your way of life." Mark Probert LI, New York I will honor the privacy of email, and expect the same.
Response:
Boufford) writes: IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do A narcotic? According to the dictionary is something that helps sleep. Since methylphenidate is a central nervous stimulant, do you see a problem with your reading comprehension?
I know it’s not a narcotic, and this probably doesn’t help… but one of the few things Ritalin seemed to *do* for me, was help me sleep. Really really well. Much more soundly than without it. Barry Kearns
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Kearns) writes: Boufford) writes: IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do A narcotic? According to the dictionary is something that helps sleep. Since methylphenidate is a central nervous stimulant, do you see a problem with your reading comprehension? I know it’s not a narcotic, and this probably doesn’t help… but one of the few things Ritalin seemed to *do* for me, was help me sleep. Really really well. Much more soundly than without it.
I won’t argue that, Barry. many people have reported the same effect. However, it still acts in the brain as a stimulant and allows your brain to "shut down" because the control area is stimulated. Good night! Mark Probert LI, New York I will honor the privacy of email, and expect the same.
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Boufford) writes: IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do A narcotic? According to the dictionary is something that helps sleep. Since methylphenidate is a central nervous stimulant, do you see a problem with your reading comprehension? I know it’s not a narcotic, and this probably doesn’t help… but one of the few things Ritalin seemed to *do* for me, was help me sleep. Really really well. Much more soundly than without it. Barry Kearns
But for different reasons, Barry. I can’t sleep if I can’t concentrate on sleeping, the MPH helps me concentrate. It seems strange taking a CNS stim to sleep, but it works. My psych uses me as an example to parents, when talking about MPH and sleep. — …it’s never too late to have a happy childhood! …tiger
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -(tiger) writes: Boufford) writes: IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do A narcotic? According to the dictionary is something that helps sleep. Since methylphenidate is a central nervous stimulant, do you see a problem with your reading comprehension? I know it’s not a narcotic, and this probably doesn’t help… but one of the few things Ritalin seemed to *do* for me, was help me sleep. Really really well. Much more soundly than without it. Barry Kearns But for different reasons, Barry. I can’t sleep if I can’t concentrate on sleeping, the MPH helps me concentrate. It seems strange taking a CNS stim to sleep, but it works. My psych uses me as an example to parents, when talking about MPH and sleep.
A "narcotic" tends to *put* you to sleep. Using MPH as a sleep aid, *lets* you sleep. Big difference. Mark Probert LI, New York I will honor the privacy of email, and expect the same.
Response:
A "narcotic" tends to *put* you to sleep. Using MPH as a sleep aid, *lets* you sleep. Big difference. Mark Probert LI, New York
This is really the medical definition of "narcotic," which is a psychotropic analgesic that also has depressant effects on the CNS. In medical terms, it’s pretty much limited to opium derivatives (e.g. morphine, heroin, codeine) and their synthetic analogues (Percodan, Demerol). The legal definition of "narcotic" is quite different. It also adds many CNS stimulants, psychedelic/hallucinogens, and "pure" depressants (e.g. Valium, Amobarbital). The legal definition has it’s origins in the Harrison Narcotics Act, passed early in this century. It classifies specific drugs as Schedule I, II, III etc. according to danger, addictive potential, and medical usefulness. Ritalin is not a narcotic by the medical definition. As a Schedule II drug (potentially addictive; limited medical usefulness, e.g. ADD and Narcolepsy and not much else) it IS a "narcotic" by the legal definition. Hope this clears up some of the confusion. Anthony
Response:
Hi; Why wouldn’t there be problems. Ritalin is used interchangeably with Cocaine in scientific studies. Of course, I am sure you can provide even *one* citation that substantiates this…
Martha, "Ritalin" is a trade name for a drug preparation manufactured by Ciba-Geigy. Trade names are as a rule not used in scientific studies of drugs. Rather, generic names of drugs are used. For example, the generic name for Ritalin is methylphenidate. Studies using methylphenidate (whether obtained from Ciba-Geigy, or elsewhere) are referred to simply as, methylphenidate, by the literature. Now, to address your apparent contention that because methylphenidate is often included in studies involving cocaine, problems from Ritalin should therefore be understood in terms of problems with cocaine abuse: Lots of different chemical entities get used in scientific studies for reasons that have nothing to do with their purported "problems". Research scientists think and plan their studies/experiments in discretely analytical and technical, not emotional, terms. The fact that cocaine and methylphenidate are often studied along side each other is attributable to the fact that these two substances are both _CNS stimulants_. It should be understood however that the potency of methylphenidate as a CNS stimulant is far cry removed from that of cocaine (not to mention that cocaine, at any dosage, is ‘in a class of its own’ among the stimulants in terms of its uniquely powerful euphorigenic properties in humans). To help put this into perspective, a more mundane example of a CNS stimulant is in your morning cup of coffee: caffeine. Caffeine also is often studied along side cocaine… IF you check the PDR you will find Ritalin is a narcotic…..why do I’m just curious, Martha: what PDR have you read? Here’s what causes me to ask that question–methylphenidate (Ritalin is CibaGeigy’s brand of the drug) is a central nervous system stimulant, chemically related to piperidine. It is the *polar opposite* of a narcotic.
Martha, Medically/technically/scientifically, Ritalin is not at all a narcotic. (Narcotics depress the CNS, not stimulate it). However, in _legal_ terms, Ritalin is classed as a "narcotic". (The PDR is a LEGAL, not a scientific-medical, document.) The legal definition of "narcotic", however, has to do with which drug-abuse laws/statutes the substance has been placed under by legislators; having nothing to do with the proper medical classification of the drug. you think so many kids are trying illegal drugs. Ritalin is sold on school campuses by kids who want money. They take for the same reason they buy cocaine…..
Not quite. Ritalin is often bought on college campuses by students who use it as an aid to study for exams. Ritalin, being a CNS stimulant, facilitates the practice of studying for long hours at a time. Additionally, Ritalin has a history of sometimes being used in conjunction with a (true) narcotic called Talwin, as an alternative to heroin. (I believe this practice dates back to the sixties, when, in response, Ritalin first came under legislation to classify and control it as a "narcotic".) But even in this scenario of abuse, the Ritalin itself isn’t sought out for any "high" or euphoria. The narcotic, Talwin, alone provides that. The Ritalin is merely added to counteract the extremely drowsy, half-awake, stupor (i.e. Ritalin offsets the CNS depression) that this particular narcotic, Talwin, otherwise induces. As far as Ritalin on campuses being obtained for use with Talwin, it is my understanding that this has not been a concern with the authorities. Rather, in the past, there has been a problem with a few renegade physicians in the inner cities freely prescribing, both, Ritalin _and Talwin_, to heroin users. In my city (Vancouver), since the authorities clamped down on the offending doctors several years ago, I have not heard or read any indication that this Ritalin-Talwin abuse phenomenon has continued/resumed being a problem here. Having said all this, I will admit that Ritalin alone does indeed get abused by some people. But for that matter, so does pure, clean, water (e.g. "water intoxication" syndrome)… Regards, Brad Hall
Response:
I know it’s not a narcotic, and this probably doesn’t help… but one of the few things Ritalin seemed to *do* for me, was help me sleep. Really really well. Much more soundly than without it. Barry Kearns
The way that Alpha Blockers had been described to me is that it helps to even out the sleep patterns. They typically in my experience of taking the scripts have led to a restriction of my appetite and helped me straighten out my sleep issues. I only have my life to go by for these experiences and the drugs will affect each a little differently… Darren
Response:
Hi; Why wouldn’t there be problems. Ritalin is used interchangeably with Cocaine in scientific studies. Of course, I am sure you can provide even *one* citation that substantiates this…
My memory just kicked in. There was one study mentioned a while back where it was found that cocaine addicts couldn’t tell whether they’d received Ritalin or cocaine under some kind of circumstance. Of course, my response is NOT the horrified "My god, ritalin is like cocaine!"; it’s the "Hey. . . does this mean ritalin might help wean folks from cocaine? That’d be GREAT! Ritalin’s pretty damn safe and cocaine’s a killer!" Shrug. But keep in mind, like all sensationalists, the people talking about the study never produced it. — Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in kindergarten. Like: always keep a test PC with a network card and crossover cable available for testing new network clients.
Response:
Anthony, I have to take issue with you on a couple of points, although, as I hope you realize, I don’t *completely* disagree with you. :)
[snip] The legal definition of "narcotic" is quite different. It also adds many CNS stimulants, psychedelic/hallucinogens, and "pure" depressants (e.g. Valium, Amobarbital). The legal definition has it’s origins in the Harrison Narcotics Act, passed early in this century. It classifies specific drugs as Schedule I, II, III etc. according to danger, addictive potential, and medical usefulness.
The DEA began "scheduling" certain substances under the Controlled Substances Act of 1971. CSA falls under Title II, Section 201 of the Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention Control Act of 1970. Under these Acts, substances are classified ("scheduled") according to three main criteria: 1. Potential for abuse 2. Efficacy with legitimate use 3. Possibility of psychological and/or physical dependence A schedule 1 substance would be so classified because it met criteria 1 and 3, but *without* 2–the "legitimate use" aspect. Heroin, for example, is a Schedule 1 substance because it has no "legitimate efficacious use." Cocaine, on the other hand, is Schedule 2, because, while abusable, it is prescribed as a topical anesthetic. The likelihood of MPH being moved from Schedule 2 to Schedule 1 is right about nil, if for no other reason than its efficacy. Ritalin is not a narcotic by the medical definition. As a Schedule II drug (potentially addictive; limited medical usefulness, e.g. ADD and Narcolepsy and not much else) it IS a "narcotic" by the legal definition.
There is nowhere that I am aware of that a "scheduled" CNS stimulant (like methylphenidate or cocaine) is "legally" referred to as a narcotic–although some people may refer to *any* abusable substance as such. Joe Parsons Hope this clears up some of the confusion. Anthony
– Please remove the "!" from my address to send me mail. I do not wish to receive *any* Unsolicited Commercial E-mail (UCE). I will consider that altering my address for the purpose of sending such unwanted mail is willful harassment. You *don’t* want to do that.
Response:
There is nowhere that I am aware of that a "scheduled" CNS stimulant (like methylphenidate or cocaine) is "legally" referred to as a narcotic–although some people may refer to *any* abusable substance as such.
I think they might be. . . for example, the police department will probably have a "Narcotics Division" or somesuch, and I think I’ve seen laws written with "the term Narcotic shall be used to refer to the following substances. . . " — Everything I needed to know in life, I learned in kindergarten. Like: always keep a test PC with a network card and crossover cable available for testing new network clients.
If you like this post and would like to receive updates from this blog, please subscribe our feed.