Question:
In article <3849E30C.9CC7…@excelinternet.com>, Roland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -<rol…@excelinternet.com> wrote: >JMass11162 wrote: >> X-NO-ARCHIVE: YES >> >From: Roland >> > What you focus you mind on is a choice, though OCD may be causing >> >hyperactivity on some focal point of obsessive thinking. >> disagree >O.K., you disagree. >> >There >> >is no such thing as a random thought. Randomness is a purely mathematical >> >construct. All thoughts are the result of a casue/effect relationship, >> >whether one is aware of the cause of a particular thought or not. >> >–Roland >> What do you mean by cause and effect,are you referring to past expierences >> growing up that causes all the thoughts and If you are I also disagree. >> Joe >Well, yes and no. I am not referring to anything specific, like past >experiences (or the record of them in our minds). I am referring to randomness >as being a factor in the production of thoughts. The brain operates on an >electro-chemical basis. This is a matter of physical matter. If something >happens within the brain, then something caused it to happen, whether it was >generated via external stimuli through the external nervous system or some >internal phenomenon. Anyway, it is not possible to have "artificial" thoughts >and even if we do not recognise a thought’s origin that does not make it >random. >–Roland
I tend to agree with Roland here after looking through the thread, thoughts may *feel* like they’re not coming from you but at some level of course they actually are. (if that’s what you’re saying) (and it doesn’t necessarily mean you are *choosing* that particular subject to ruminate on)
Response:
Well. NGs are so difficult to communicate clearly in as there is so much more to communications than just words on a page and, of course, the fact that whatever you write is put there for anyone who comes along to read. I am not a foreigner to obsessive thoughts. Around age 20 and for many, many years after I had obsessive thoughts. They were associated or caused by something extremely traumatic that happened in my life and my attempt to deal with something that had no solution. I could only deal with it in my head. I can look back on it now, almost. I can now recognize OCD tendencies in myself earlier than this phase of my life, but I had no idea what it was. But for the OCD to kick in an rule my life at that point took something incredibly powerful to occur. I think that if I had know what OCD is, that my thoughts were a function of this disorder, I could have overcome this particular obsession much earlier in my life. –Roland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -simon smith wrote: > In article <3849E47B.E451D…@excelinternet.com>, Roland > <rol…@excelinternet.com> writes > >I am curious, Simon. Did you experience something incredibilly shocking at > >age 15 that led to your obsessiveness? > Nothing external, all in my head. I posted this on the new OCD group and > I’ll post it here: > I find it so hard to describe what happened to me when I was 15 and > these problems started that I am going to have to quote from an old > psychiatric textbook that I found years later in a library (I’m afraid > I’ve lost the reference;Meyer-Gross was one of the authors). I was > astonished when I read it, it so accurately described what happened to > me: > "…Obsesessional ruminations also occur, and seem, of all obsessional > symptoms, those most frequently associated with depersonalizaton and > derealization…When called to get down to urgent affairs the patient is > hamstrung by a repetitive and endless turning over of thoughts of an > irrelevant kind, which lead nowhere…Sleep may be prevented by a > compulsive enumeration of the doings of the day. Hypochondriacal > preoccupations, and a compulsive pondering of somatic feelings and > bodily functions, are also common. These often develop in association > with a compulsive self-scrutiny which is paricularly prone to interfere > with activities such as breathing, swallowing and falling asleep,that > demand a smooth co-ordination of voluntary and automatic, conscious and > unconscious, functions…Such disturbances are therefore especially > frequent in patients who lose their sense of spontanaity and in whom > self-scrutiny and unreality feelings then appear to aggravate one > another in a vicious circle…" > I know this quote is a bit long, but it is a personal story for me, > despite the psychiatric language. For the 22 years since this occurred I > have drifted through life in a state of constant physical tension, > circular thoughts which go nowhere, and which are unreal anyway, like my > emotions. I question most of the most mundane things I do, as if I had a > running commentator in my head to whom I had to answer all the time. > Thank you for your interest, Frank. > — > simon http://www.figment.clara.co.uk > —
Response:
In article <3849E47B.E451D…@excelinternet.com>, Roland <rol…@excelinternet.com> writes >I am curious, Simon. Did you experience something incredibilly shocking at >age 15 that led to your obsessiveness?
Nothing external, all in my head. I posted this on the new OCD group and I’ll post it here: I find it so hard to describe what happened to me when I was 15 and these problems started that I am going to have to quote from an old psychiatric textbook that I found years later in a library (I’m afraid I’ve lost the reference;Meyer-Gross was one of the authors). I was astonished when I read it, it so accurately described what happened to me: "…Obsesessional ruminations also occur, and seem, of all obsessional symptoms, those most frequently associated with depersonalizaton and derealization…When called to get down to urgent affairs the patient is hamstrung by a repetitive and endless turning over of thoughts of an irrelevant kind, which lead nowhere…Sleep may be prevented by a compulsive enumeration of the doings of the day. Hypochondriacal preoccupations, and a compulsive pondering of somatic feelings and bodily functions, are also common. These often develop in association with a compulsive self-scrutiny which is paricularly prone to interfere with activities such as breathing, swallowing and falling asleep,that demand a smooth co-ordination of voluntary and automatic, conscious and unconscious, functions…Such disturbances are therefore especially frequent in patients who lose their sense of spontanaity and in whom self-scrutiny and unreality feelings then appear to aggravate one another in a vicious circle…" I know this quote is a bit long, but it is a personal story for me, despite the psychiatric language. For the 22 years since this occurred I have drifted through life in a state of constant physical tension, circular thoughts which go nowhere, and which are unreal anyway, like my emotions. I question most of the most mundane things I do, as if I had a running commentator in my head to whom I had to answer all the time. Thank you for your interest, Frank. — simon http://www.figment.clara.co.uk —
Response:
I am curious, Simon. Did you experience something incredibilly shocking at age 15 that led to your obsessiveness? –Roland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -simon smith wrote: > In article <3848DFBE.2951D…@earthlink.net>, Frank Biondo > <fra…@earthlink.net> writes > >I am always on alert: Is this a real thought I’m having? Is this a > >normal thinking pattern or is this me THINKING about thinking? What > >would be passing through my mind if I wasn’t so intent on scrutinizing > >every whim? I’m sitting in my head with a spotlight, highlighting every > >single notion that passes by–I analyze it, check it from every angle > >and then eventually put it down again. But it’s not free–it’s not a > >FREE, NATURAL thought or thought process. There is no "in the moment" > >when every moment is made ARTIFICIAL. > That’s exactly how I am. I couldn’t have put it better than you have. > But it’s been going on so long (22 years) I notice it less now – I’ve > become somewhat numbed to it. With me it happened fairly suddenly when I > was 15 – I lost my ability for spontaneous thought and feeling. I’m > virtually never ‘in the moment’. I’ve been frowning for 22 years. > > When even random thoughts are > >manufactured, there is absolutley nothing left. The very idea of > >natural, random thoughts passing through my head at their own pace is an > >impossibility for me now. I can’t remember what it used to be like > >anymore. It’s been too long. > Yes, the same for me. I’ve been diagnosed with ‘Depersonalisation > Syndrome’, meaning I’ve lost my natural sense of self. This came about > through obsessional thoughts. They *are* unreal thoughts. I think this > is the nature of obsessional thinking – to lose your reality. I’m > surprised that more people don’t reach this extreme. > — > Simon Chief Petty Officer, alt.support.ocd.moderated
Response:
I have to disagree also about what I focus my mind on being a choice. I’ve never believed that my thoughts come from without–in fact, it has pained me so much BECAUSE I realize they are mine. But this awareness has done nothing to help me get a better grip on my thoughts. I’ve grown so much in OCD awareness and inner strength over the years, and yet the disease also grows stronger and strikes me as hard as it ever did. As I’ve mentioned in earlier posts, I’m hoping to start CBT soon, but I don’t hold out much hope for it. That may just be depression talking, but then again, I almost know myself TOO well. –Frank – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Roland wrote: > JMass11162 wrote: > > X-NO-ARCHIVE: YES > > >From: Roland > > > What you focus you mind on is a choice, though OCD may be causing > > >hyperactivity on some focal point of obsessive thinking. > > disagree > O.K., you disagree. > > >There > > >is no such thing as a random thought. Randomness is a purely mathematical > > >construct. All thoughts are the result of a casue/effect relationship, > > >whether one is aware of the cause of a particular thought or not. > > >–Roland > > What do you mean by cause and effect,are you referring to past expierences > > growing up that causes all the thoughts and If you are I also disagree. > > Joe > Well, yes and no. I am not referring to anything specific, like past > experiences (or the record of them in our minds). I am referring to randomness > as being a factor in the production of thoughts. The brain operates on an > electro-chemical basis. This is a matter of physical matter. If something > happens within the brain, then something caused it to happen, whether it was > generated via external stimuli through the external nervous system or some > internal phenomenon. Anyway, it is not possible to have "artificial" thoughts > and even if we do not recognise a thought’s origin that does not make it > random. > –Roland
Response:
JMass11162 wrote: > X-NO-ARCHIVE: YES > >From: Roland > > What you focus you mind on is a choice, though OCD may be causing > >hyperactivity on some focal point of obsessive thinking. > disagree
O.K., you disagree. > >There > >is no such thing as a random thought. Randomness is a purely mathematical > >construct. All thoughts are the result of a casue/effect relationship, > >whether one is aware of the cause of a particular thought or not. > >–Roland > What do you mean by cause and effect,are you referring to past expierences > growing up that causes all the thoughts and If you are I also disagree. > Joe
Well, yes and no. I am not referring to anything specific, like past experiences (or the record of them in our minds). I am referring to randomness as being a factor in the production of thoughts. The brain operates on an electro-chemical basis. This is a matter of physical matter. If something happens within the brain, then something caused it to happen, whether it was generated via external stimuli through the external nervous system or some internal phenomenon. Anyway, it is not possible to have "artificial" thoughts and even if we do not recognise a thought’s origin that does not make it random. –Roland
Response:
Roland, I agree with you. However in the midst of ocd, anxiety and panic, it does seem very random and it can seem to come from without. Getting to the point where there is choice does involve learning to see that we do produce these thoughts and they serve a purpose. It doesn’t seem possible to make healthy, productive choices when we don’t understand them. — Take care of your "self". whatatrip rbol…@premier1.net Roland <rol…@excelinternet.com> wrote in message
news:3849523B.E0185D55@excelinternet.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Frank, > Every thought you have is real, whether you are thinking about thinking or > not. What you focus you mind on is a choice, though OCD may be causing > hyperactivity on some focal point of obsessive thinking. There are no > abnormal thoughts–meaning thoughts that would not be produced by your own > mind; otherwise, you would not be perceiving them through your mind. There > is no such thing as a random thought. Randomness is a purely mathematical > construct. All thoughts are the result of a casue/effect relationship, > whether one is aware of the cause of a particular thought or not. > –Roland > Frank Biondo wrote: > > I am always on alert: Is this a real thought I’m having? Is this a > > normal thinking pattern or is this me THINKING about thinking? What > > would be passing through my mind if I wasn’t so intent on scrutinizing > > every whim? I’m sitting in my head with a spotlight, highlighting every > > single notion that passes by–I analyze it, check it from every angle > > and then eventually put it down again. But it’s not free–it’s not a > > FREE, NATURAL thought or thought process. There is no "in the moment" > > when every moment is made ARTIFICIAL. When even random thoughts are > > manufactured, there is absolutley nothing left. The very idea of > > natural, random thoughts passing through my head at their own pace is an > > impossibility for me now. I can’t remember what it used to be like > > anymore. It’s been too long. > > –Frank
Response:
Frank, Every thought you have is real, whether you are thinking about thinking or not. What you focus you mind on is a choice, though OCD may be causing hyperactivity on some focal point of obsessive thinking. There are no abnormal thoughts–meaning thoughts that would not be produced by your own mind; otherwise, you would not be perceiving them through your mind. There is no such thing as a random thought. Randomness is a purely mathematical construct. All thoughts are the result of a casue/effect relationship, whether one is aware of the cause of a particular thought or not. –Roland – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Frank Biondo wrote: > I am always on alert: Is this a real thought I’m having? Is this a > normal thinking pattern or is this me THINKING about thinking? What > would be passing through my mind if I wasn’t so intent on scrutinizing > every whim? I’m sitting in my head with a spotlight, highlighting every > single notion that passes by–I analyze it, check it from every angle > and then eventually put it down again. But it’s not free–it’s not a > FREE, NATURAL thought or thought process. There is no "in the moment" > when every moment is made ARTIFICIAL. When even random thoughts are > manufactured, there is absolutley nothing left. The very idea of > natural, random thoughts passing through my head at their own pace is an > impossibility for me now. I can’t remember what it used to be like > anymore. It’s been too long. > –Frank
Response:
In article <3848DFBE.2951D…@earthlink.net>, Frank Biondo <fra…@earthlink.net> writes >I am always on alert: Is this a real thought I’m having? Is this a >normal thinking pattern or is this me THINKING about thinking? What >would be passing through my mind if I wasn’t so intent on scrutinizing >every whim? I’m sitting in my head with a spotlight, highlighting every >single notion that passes by–I analyze it, check it from every angle >and then eventually put it down again. But it’s not free–it’s not a >FREE, NATURAL thought or thought process. There is no "in the moment" >when every moment is made ARTIFICIAL.
That’s exactly how I am. I couldn’t have put it better than you have. But it’s been going on so long (22 years) I notice it less now – I’ve become somewhat numbed to it. With me it happened fairly suddenly when I was 15 – I lost my ability for spontaneous thought and feeling. I’m virtually never ‘in the moment’. I’ve been frowning for 22 years. > When even random thoughts are >manufactured, there is absolutley nothing left. The very idea of >natural, random thoughts passing through my head at their own pace is an >impossibility for me now. I can’t remember what it used to be like >anymore. It’s been too long.
Yes, the same for me. I’ve been diagnosed with ‘Depersonalisation Syndrome’, meaning I’ve lost my natural sense of self. This came about through obsessional thoughts. They *are* unreal thoughts. I think this is the nature of obsessional thinking – to lose your reality. I’m surprised that more people don’t reach this extreme. — Simon Chief Petty Officer, alt.support.ocd.moderated
Response:
I am always on alert: Is this a real thought I’m having? Is this a normal thinking pattern or is this me THINKING about thinking? What would be passing through my mind if I wasn’t so intent on scrutinizing every whim? I’m sitting in my head with a spotlight, highlighting every single notion that passes by–I analyze it, check it from every angle and then eventually put it down again. But it’s not free–it’s not a FREE, NATURAL thought or thought process. There is no "in the moment" when every moment is made ARTIFICIAL. When even random thoughts are manufactured, there is absolutley nothing left. The very idea of natural, random thoughts passing through my head at their own pace is an impossibility for me now. I can’t remember what it used to be like anymore. It’s been too long. –Frank
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