Question:
service by doing so.
Excuse me? Did I miss something? A bit rude don’t think? Hilde
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Annie: Netiquette sort of says that you don’t post email. However, there’s been far too much of this email harrassment going on on asap over the past few months. I think this is a case in point. When someone is refusing to stop emailing and those emails are causing distress to the point of PAs – then Nettiquette goes out the window AFAIC!! Annie….if you want to, post the emails so we can *all* deal with them. If you’re not comfortable about posting them, forward them to any of us on asap that you trust. ITMT, don’t read any more that arrive in your mail box – just forward or delete them. You’ve got a *lot* of good friends here on asap – don’t let some thoughtless twit drive you away from here. Many hugs. Mally :)
I’ve obviously missed a few of the recent posts in this thread but yes, I’d like to see those E-mails. And Susan, if you’re still tuned in, I’ve tried to say this politely before. Are you nuts? DAMNED WELL LAY-OFF!!! _ ROB… "high mileage but reliable!"
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Hi Mally & Rob, I find this post most troubling. There are many folks reading this group far too intimidated by our rough words and flame wars to post — but many are willing to use e-mail instead. If we are now giving the idea that if we don’t like an e-mail, it may end up in the ng, I think we will scare some people away from ever communicating. My understanding of this situation was that Suzan e-mailed Annie with a response to a post to which Annie replied back. Suzan replied back again, and this was bounced back to Suzan without reply. Annie’s follow-up was done in the ng with some rather harsh words. I don’t think we’ve seen Suzan on asap since then, which means another lost asap member. I’m not sure why this is coming up again now, but as far as I know, there are not floods of venomous mail from Suzan to Annie. Just two from Suzan to Annie and one from Annie to Suzan. Rob, I don’t know if you were misled on this or misread something, but there is no current interaction between these two … so the "lay off" message is rather over-stated. Just trying to keep things in the clear. And voice my major concern about putting e-mail in the ng. Thanks, Alice – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hi Annie: Netiquette sort of says that you don’t post email. However, there’s been far too much of this email harrassment going on on asap over the past few months. I think this is a case in point. When someone is refusing to stop emailing and those emails are causing distress to the point of PAs – then Nettiquette goes out the window AFAIC!! Annie….if you want to, post the emails so we can *all* deal with them. If you’re not comfortable about posting them, forward them to any of us on asap that you trust. ITMT, don’t read any more that arrive in your mail box – just forward or delete them. You’ve got a *lot* of good friends here on asap – don’t let some thoughtless twit drive you away from here. Many hugs. Mally :) I’ve obviously missed a few of the recent posts in this thread but yes, I’d like to see those E-mails. And Susan, if you’re still tuned in, I’ve tried to say this politely before. Are you nuts? DAMNED WELL LAY-OFF!!! _ ROB… "high mileage but reliable!"
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get. Suzan, In light of the above statement, I cannot attempt a serious discussion with you, Suzan. While privacy cannot be an issue on a public support group, I think that you might consider respecting the other members of this group. Whatever you need to do to get through therapy is between you and your therapist. However, your attempt to validate your arguments with a professional’s opinion, formed without knowledge of the people in question, is more than a little discourteous. Cathleen [For the record, and not as a means of validating my own arguments, I began reading ASAP during the fall of 1994. I have lurked on and off since then, and I did miss the end of 1995 and early 1996. I'm saying this because I don't want anyone to be misled about my familiarity with the group, although as I said in earlier posts, I seem to have missed some of the major "flamewars." I consider myself a newbie because I only began regularly posting in March of this year.] Hi Cathleen, Rob, Gary, Linda, and whoever else is on this thread. This lady is WADDA!! She has emailed me twice even though I asked her not to be in touch with me and has been quite awful. I am feeling VERY anxious about having this sort of person lurking or anywhere near me….thils is not paranoia….I’ll leave that to her. She is a lawyer and they just love to argue. She claims to me on the last email that people really like her posts and that I am paranoid. However if I am so paranoid then why did she email me " because I am tired of all the gang banging" or something like that. And why am I reading all these objections to her post. So who is REALLY neurotic here Susan?????? Here is your proof. You have not respected the group nor my wishes to LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!! I am a newbie and you are REALLY turning me off. This is not court. You have proven your lack of integrity. You say you think the fighting and swiping is unnecessary and then call us "neurotic". This a very rational person we are dealing with here folks. Email me again and I’ll get my own lawyer and sue you for harrassment. Sorry folks but I’m having a panic attack….if this is what ASAP is about then I’m outta here!! I could sure use some support folks as this b—– has done a number on me and I’m not dealing with it too well. DON’T try to reason or argue with her….she thrives on it.
Hi Annie: Netiquette sort of says that you don’t post email. However, there’s been far too much of this email harrassment going on on asap over the past few months. I think this is a case in point. When someone is refusing to stop emailing and those emails are causing distress to the point of PAs – then Nettiquette goes out the window AFAIC!! Annie….if you want to, post the emails so we can *all* deal with them. If you’re not comfortable about posting them, forward them to any of us on asap that you trust. ITMT, don’t read any more that arrive in your mail box – just forward or delete them. You’ve got a *lot* of good friends here on asap – don’t let some thoughtless twit drive you away from here. Many hugs. Mally :)
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~~~snipped to save bandwidth~~~ : Well, here’s the first generalization: "all the therapy bashing." Since you : don’t read the "med posts," you probably don’t realize that most of the : people taking meds are not bashing therapy. Like Linda, many of them have Oh yes they are bashing. Like I said, I’ve been on this ng long enough to have lived through the meds vs. therapy wars of 1995.
Just to disprove your allegations, I quote part of a post I made in response to a new poster to asap some months ago: "If you can come to terms with the fact that you have a medical disorder that needs treatment, accepting it IOW, then you’re on your way to gaining some control over it. And, for most of us here, control and the loss of it is one of the most frightening aspects of PD. Be as well informed as possible, read the FAQs, ask your doctor lots of questions, investigate meds and therapies – the more you know the more control : tried various types of therapy with no success and only then turned to : medication. Many of the people on medication are still in therapy and : wouldn’t be able to be in therapy if it wasn’t for the medication. I have : not seen many people advise someone *not* to go to therapy. I’ve seen Most of the people on meds have given up on therapy. The common response is that it takes too long.
This puritanical condemnation of those wishing to obtain relief as soon as possible is quite nonsensical. When someone is suffering from a constant onslaught of terror, disabling physical symptoms and consequent problems with their careers, family and social lives – there is absolutely nothing wrong with seeking and using a solution that gives the fastest possible relief. Time and time again, I and many others here have *suggested* using meds to gain some immediate relief and then, when given some relief and respite from the attacks, seeking further information on therapies that may help. ~~~snip~~~ : found on this ng that many of the people want an immediate cure, a wave : of a magic wand or a drink of some potion. Well, after over 15 years of : panic anxiety, I can attest *there is no such thing*.
Your "testimony" goes a long way to backing up what those of us here find to be the problem with CT/BT. You say there is no cure, endure 15 years of panic anxiety and yet you denigrate meds – something that has given so many of us relief and a normal life, IOW – as near to a cure as possible to date. ~~~snip~~~ I’ve already explained myself. Many of the people on this ng are very angry (I understand this because I went through a very long period of anger too) but getting angry at others here is not appropriate. They snip and swipe at everyone that doesn’t agree with them, they put down every avenue of possibility out of more fear, they won’t try things, they don’t want to discuss religion because they’re atheists or gave up on G-d. Etc. I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get.
If this is what you saw on this n/g, then I think you must have very real problems that have nothing to do with PD. Anything less like the actual supportive postings that show up here every day I can’t imagine. Of course religion shouldn’t be discussed here, except when someone states that their faith or spirituallity helps them cope with PD. We all know that specific discussions of religion ignite flame wars and discourage those of differing faiths from feeling that they are welcome here. Calling people neurotic on a support group reveals how much empathy and support you really feel for those suffering from PD. As for your therapist, she illustrates exactly the type I was sent to see over many years and led to my dislike of therapy and therapists – an appalling conceit in their abilities and a closed mind to anything but their own agendas and income! BUT, that’s my own experience, apparently you don’t mind trusting a therapist who can diagnose people based on posts to a newsgroup. As with everything here, as far as therapy is concerned – it’s not for me, but it may work for others just fine, YMMV. Perhaps I should explain more. I know someone that was suffering from depression and anxiety. She knows my story too but has never asked for any advice. In fact, when I called her to offer support, she hung up the phone after saying "can’t talk, I’ll call you later" Except for when she needed a favor that concerned $$, I haven’t heard from her in over a year (she’s a relative btw). She went to her regular doctor who prescribed meds – notice I didn’t say psychiatrist – she never went to a psych or therapist for consultation. So, now 2 years have gone by and she’s still having depression and anxiety but she’s taking her meds. The problem is still there and when she forgets the meds – bam – she’s back to square one. This is the type of person to whom I was referring. And there is plenty of that on asap.
Well, you said you still have panic anxiety after fifteen years. What’s the difference? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: meaning of the word? Secondly, you’ve implied that all people taking : medication for their PD’s are overmedicated. It seems to me that most : people have approached medication cautiously. Finally, you obviously : haven’t tried to get to know anyone on this group if you can refer to its : members as "bitter." Perhaps that’s another word you should look up in the : dictionary when you’re checking out "neurotic." I certainly know what neurotic means and I know bitter also. Bitterness is easy to be with pad. But there comes a point you have to get over it. When I said "overmedicated" I was referring to the people that take their meds, have an attack so take another for the road. I’m not talking about people like Gary who take them prn or just take the one’s they are supposed to. But when someone tells me he’s on 3, 4, 5 different meds and still has attacks, it seems to me that something is not quite right. Others on this group over the past year have admitted that they are addicted to their meds and are very afraid to stop. That’s just substituting one fear for another.
You’re still in therapy. Would you stop? Or are you afraid to stop therapy? Notice I’m not saying that because you’re still in therapy that "something is not quite right". Many people may have to be on meds for many years, some for the rest of their lives – there are many diseases, disorders that require constant on-going medication. Just as, apparently, there are disorders that require constant on-going therapy. : I agree that there is a problem if a person decides to take medication based : *only* on what he or she has read in this newsgroup. However, it seems to : me that most of the people in this group are reading books and other : literature about PD as well as getting advice from psychiatrists, : therapists, and/or doctors. This newsgroup is a place to vent, to seek : comfort, to give and get advice–to sum up: a place to find support. I think there are far more people lurking here that are taking everything posted as the gospel. And lately there has not been much support for those not part of the main group. There’s been a lot of bashing. You want to see what bashing and ostrasizing does? Go lurk on soc.culture.jewish.
What the hell is this "main group" crap??? As for "bashing" – calling people neurotic and bitter is bashing at the very least. When I joined asap, four or five posts a day were a lot of posts! Now we’re averaging between thirty and fifty posts a day. If there was a "main group" trashing everyone who didn’t agree with what we said – we’d still be at the four or five posts a day. In the past year I’ve seen at least two full-blown flame wars on this group. That’s support?
And you very carefully don’t mention that people were being harrassed and driven away by individuals who threatened and bullied on asap. That people were sending posts to me to post for them, as they were too frightened by these bullies to post, which I did. Where were you during all the fear and upset? Sitting on the sidelines taking notes? Why didn’t you offer some help and support to those who were being made miserable? : And, now, I have to ask you what you mean by the statement: "The cure for me : is worse than the symptom." What are you talking about? Did you think : medications would cure you? Now I know you misunderstood. The meds were supposed to help the anxiety, yes? I wasn’t expecting a cure. DId you read my post really? There is no such animal. However, the meds did not descrease the anxiety. They increased them and I got so sick, my officemates thought I was having a stroke. Luckily, the doctor didn’t feel it was necessary to pump my stomach. I was sick from the side effects for over a week after taking the prescription and I had only taken it for 4 days and at the lowest possible dosage. That’s what I was talking about.
So you don’t like meds because of your experience with them. I don’t like CT because of my experience with it. I don’t call people names because they like and benefit from CT. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -: sufferers. And, by "help" I don’t mean "cure." There is not some battle on : ASAP between people who advocate medication without therapy vs. people who : use therapy but scorn medication. Rather, there are people using medication : *and* therapy, and people who use therapy alone. If one reads *all* of the : posts on this group, it is easy to see which path to recovery is being : "bashed" more. Cathleen, I’ve been on this group a whole lot longer than you and I know there are two
… read more »
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – <words snipped tos ave bandwidth Excluding one or the other because someone on a ng likes to trash therapy is not to your benefit. If I listened to everything I read here I’d be a very bitter, overmedicated, neurotic person who didn’t do anything to find out what is really going on with me (and very sick because I’d believe that I had to take meds and as I’ve posted, I’ve tried ‘em and the cure for me is worse than the symptom.) Flame away. Why should you be flamed for stating an alternative point of view? The only objection might be if you’d said yours was the only way. My guess, FWIW, would be that if someone listened to everything they saw on this group they’d be remarkably well informed about the diversity of approaches to treatment and very well placed to make informed decisions. On the *other* hand, they might become a fanatically religious gardener with an ice cream problem, a major addiction to benzos, a belief that CB can cure anyone of anything and a strange obsession about space aliens… 
— Gary Cooper
Gary…I just love ya …you big polar bear!! Thanks for putting a light and funny slant on this thread. The space aliens and I got a real chuckle out of it. So did the plants. Hard to tell what the ice cream did though. Lots of mush, Annie (…….can’t take life seriously anymore)
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~~~~~~snipped~~~~~~~ However you find it. Just get help. If you are on meds and still having severe attacks, and I know there are those of you out there, you need more. I needed more than my therapist was giving me so I got a new therapist. Those of you afraid to do anything – get over it and get some help. It’s a big, beautiful world out there and we only have it for a short period of time. DO SOMETHING!
Suzan, I can understand how you feel, and where you’re coming from. But you won’t get anywhere with posts like this. We all get frustrated over this problem and if what you’re doing works for you then I’m happy. But we’ve all got to try to be happy in our own way, and if that doesn’t include meds for you or me then fine. If it does include meds for someone else then what right have we to tell them otherwise? Whether we like it or not meds are a part of PD and if you want to change that it’s got to be by tolerance, not by condemnation. We CAN do something, and still be on meds. The *doing something* has nothing to do with meds. If you were to meet me today and we talked you probably wouldn’t be able to tell whether I was on meds or not. So why have a problem with it? We’re all in the same boat here. Let’s not forget that. Love _ ROB "better, and getting better all the time!"
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<words snipped to save bandwidth I’ve already explained myself. Many of the people on this ng are very angry (I understand this because I went through a very long period of anger too) but getting angry at others here is not appropriate. They snip and swipe at everyone that doesn’t agree with them, they put down every avenue of possibility out of more fear, they won’t try things, they don’t want to discuss religion because they’re atheists or gave up on G-d. Etc. I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get.
I really wish you hadn’t said that. It is one of the most gratuitously offensive things I have ever seen on this newsgroup. It doesn’t say much for your therapist either, that she feels able to make such out of context, remote diagnoses. <sad sigh — Gary Cooper
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service by doing so.
YYaaawwwnnn….. ZZzzzz
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service by doing so.
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service by doing so.
Hello AbleAb, When are your 15 free hours up? Regards, John Daly
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< Cathleen’s comments snipped Easily. When I first started on this ng about 1 1/2 years ago, I read all the posts no matter what the topic. I learned that the med posts were mostly about dosages, side effects, addictions to, non-addictions to, etc. And I’m not interested in that. There are plenty of other posts about experiences, fears and triumphs. I can make generalizations because I’ve been reading this ng for long enough to come to conclusions.
Seems fair enough, IF we can agree that generalizations are just that, and can’t possibly *cover* everyone in this newsgroup. Oh yes they are bashing. Like I said, I’ve been on this ng long enough to have lived through the meds vs. therapy wars of 1995. Most of the people on meds have given up on therapy. The common response is that it takes too long.
I don’t know if *most* have or not. I have temporarily at least. I gave it 6 months, and found it helped some but not enough. My reason for giving it up had more to do with cost ($125 / week) and lack of improvement, then length. I don’t think so. I’ve read too many of Linda’s posts to have misunderstood. She’s vehemently against therapy and anyone new to asap would get the wrong idea from her posts about therapy.
Anyone new to asap would get Linda’s opinion regarding therapy, or get Linda’s experience regarding therapy. I don’t know if that would be the *wrong* idea or not. Like I said, I’ve been reading this ng for too long to know that many people gave up on anything but meds after a few weeks because everything else took too long.
Again you could be right. But then again, what *exactly* is wrong with wanting relief from this condition within a *few* weeks, and what is wrong with using medications to get that relief (if they provide it). There are some on this ng that appear to spend more time online than trying to get help.
Ouch! What a low blow. Of course, there are some that work very hard at getting better. No, I don’t think if you’re on meds, you’re only looking for an immediate cure. If you read my posts, you’d see I recommend multiple avenues of support if you can do it. I just don’t advocate one or the other. I was responding to a post that was bashing therapy as a possibility. I’ve already explained myself. Many of the people on this ng are very angry (I understand this because I went through a very long period of anger too) but getting angry at others here is not appropriate. They snip and swipe at everyone that doesn’t agree with them, they put down every avenue of possibility out of more fear, they won’t try things, they don’t want to discuss religion because they’re atheists or gave up on G-d. Etc. I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get.
I don’t know to whom you are referring when you say *many* of the people on this newsgroup, snipping, swipeing with everyone who doesn’t agree with them. Since you include religion in this paragraph, I can assume you might be referring to me. You and your therapist *may* know me better than myself, but I don’t think I snip, swipe, put down things out of fear, nor have I given up on God, nor am I an atheist, nor am I neurotic. Perhaps I should explain more. I know someone that was suffering from depression and anxiety. She knows my story too but has never asked for any advice. In fact, when I called her to offer support, she hung up the phone after saying "can’t talk, I’ll call you later" Except for when she needed a favor that concerned $$, I haven’t heard from her in over a year (she’s a relative btw). She went to her regular doctor who prescribed meds – notice I didn’t say psychiatrist – she never went to a psych or therapist for consultation. So, now 2 years have gone by and she’s still having depression and anxiety but she’s taking her meds. The problem is still there and when she forgets the meds – bam – she’s back to square one. This is the type of person to whom I was referring. And there is plenty of that on asap.
And what exactly is wrong with being back to square one when medications are discontinued? I certainly know what neurotic means and I know bitter also. Bitterness is easy to be with pad. But there comes a point you have to get over it. When I said "overmedicated" I was referring to the people that take their meds, have an attack so take another for the road. I’m not talking about people like Gary who take them prn or just take the one’s they are supposed to. But when someone tells me he’s on 3, 4, 5 different meds and still has attacks, it seems to me that something is not quite right. Others on this group over the past year have admitted that they are addicted to their meds and are very afraid to stop. That’s just substituting one fear for another.
Although I can agree with you that *some* people abuse medications, I become more than a little uncomfortable when when you refer to people being addicted to medications. If I believe discontinuing my medications would result in a return of panic and anxiety, and if I have such a fear of that happening that I refuse to discontinue my medications, am I addicted? You may think so, I don’t know. I don’t think so. I think there are far more people lurking here that are taking everything posted as the gospel. And lately there has not been much support for those not part of the main group. There’s been a lot of bashing. You want to see what bashing and ostrasizing does? Go lurk on soc.culture.jewish. In the past year I’ve seen at least two full-blown flame wars on this group. That’s support?
What is the *main group*? If you are referring to Gary Cooper, Mally, perhaps myself, I would suggest to you that these three people have received as little support as anyone the past few months. All three have taken *vacations* from the newsgroup. I can’t speak for Gary and Mally as to their reasons. For myself, I felt that few, if any, agreed with my position on the religion issue, and as such I would be doing everyone including myself a favor by standing aside for awhile. Now I know you misunderstood. The meds were supposed to help the anxiety, yes? I wasn’t expecting a cure. DId you read my post really? There is no such animal. However, the meds did not descrease the anxiety. They increased them and I got so sick, my officemates thought I was having a stroke. Luckily, the doctor didn’t feel it was necessary to pump my stomach. I was sick from the side effects for over a week after taking the prescription and I had only taken it for 4 days and at the lowest possible dosage. That’s what I was talking about.
If I would have had that result with a medication, anyone would be hard-pressed to get me to try another. I did have a similar result with therapy, and anyone would be hard-pressed to get me to try it again. They were hard-pressed, and got me to try it 2 more times. The next 2 times it didn’t hurt, but didn’t help much either. Cathleen, I’ve been on this group a whole lot longer than you and I know there are two distinct camps. Many people have stopped posting because of them. At one time there were more posts about therapy and other avenues of treatment. Now, you’re right, most of the posts are about meds. That’s why I mostly lurk now.
There’s several camps now. I don’t know how many. I mostly lurk now because there is a tad too much absolutism for me, and violent reactions from anyone asked to tone down the absolutism. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -So, to sum up this very long post – my generalizations come from reading all the posts for months, followed by posting on the ones I thought I could be of assistance on (I’ve received enough email to know that I’ve been supportive of many – most of whom I never see posts for so they must be lurkers), and then mostly lurking myself – over a year and a half. This is not someone who is making bald generalizations. These are conclusions based over a long period of time. I’m not sure if it was on this post and you snipped it but I also posted that life is too short. The day before I posted, a good friend of mine died unexpectedly. I said that everyone needs to get away from their computers and get help. However you find it. Just get help. If you are on meds and still having severe attacks, and I know there are those of you out there, you need more. I needed more than my therapist was giving me so I got a new therapist. Those of you afraid to do anything – get over it and get some help. It’s a big, beautiful world out there and we only have it for a short period of time. DO SOMETHING!
I couldn’t agree more. Regards, John Daly
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Although I feel that Susan gave some good advice about therapy in this post, I also feel a need to comment on some of her generalizations about this newsgroup. As medication appears to be a rather popular topic of discussion on this newsgroup, Susan must be ignoring a large number of posts. Many of the so-called "med posts" discuss far more than meds. They are filled with personal experiences, fears, and triumphs. To ignore these posts is to ignore a majority of people in this group. How, then, can Susan make these generalizations about us? I usually sit quietly through all the therapy bashing and since I ignore med posts, I rarely post at all. But now I feel I must.
Well, here’s the first generalization: "all the therapy bashing." Since you don’t read the "med posts," you probably don’t realize that most of the people taking meds are not bashing therapy. Like Linda, many of them have tried various types of therapy with no success and only then turned to medication. Many of the people on medication are still in therapy and wouldn’t be able to be in therapy if it wasn’t for the medication. I have not seen many people advise someone *not* to go to therapy. I’ve seen people share personal experiences (like Linda) and comfort others with similar experiences. <snip Linda had a bad experience. Instead of trying with someone else, she feels it is easier to just condemn the entire practice.
Linda said that she had tried different therapies for 15 years and that she, herself, has been educated as a therapist (6 years). While I can see your taking issue with Linda’s condemnation of all therapy, I think you have misunderstood her reasons for doing so. <snip I have found on this ng that many of the people want an immediate cure, a wave of a magic wand or a drink of some potion. Well, after over 15 years of panic anxiety, I can attest *there is no such thing*.
<snip MANY of the people on this newsgroup want an immediate cure? That is completely unfair. Again, as you ignore so many of the posts, you really have no idea what you’re talking about here. I get the impression that you think anyone using meds is looking for an immediate cure. That opinion is absolutely laughable. After reading *all* the posts, writing to ASAP members on e-mail, and talking to people on IRC, I have come to know many people who are working their a**es off to get better every single damn day. <snip If I listened to everything I read here I’d be a very bitter, overmedicated, neurotic person who didn’t do anything to find out what is really going on with me (and very sick because I’d believe that I had to take meds and as I’ve posted, I’ve tried ‘em and the cure for me is worse than the symptom.)
That is most definitely an ignorant, insulting thing to say. I am most perplexed as to why you couldn’t have just given Malcolm your advice without insulting this newsgroup. Again, I think your advice about therapy–finding the right therapist and sticking with it–is excellent. I just don’t understand the generalizations. It’s ridiculous, first of all, that you would misuse the word "neurotic" on a support group for panic and anxiety disorders. Are you aware of the meaning of the word? Secondly, you’ve implied that all people taking medication for their PD’s are overmedicated. It seems to me that most people have approached medication cautiously. Finally, you obviously haven’t tried to get to know anyone on this group if you can refer to its members as "bitter." Perhaps that’s another word you should look up in the dictionary when you’re checking out "neurotic." I agree that there is a problem if a person decides to take medication based *only* on what he or she has read in this newsgroup. However, it seems to me that most of the people in this group are reading books and other literature about PD as well as getting advice from psychiatrists, therapists, and/or doctors. This newsgroup is a place to vent, to seek comfort, to give and get advice–to sum up: a place to find support. And, now, I have to ask you what you mean by the statement: "The cure for me is worse than the symptom." What are you talking about? Did you think medications would cure you? I have yet to see someone on this newsgroup say that he or she thinks medication is a cure for panic disorder. There *is* no cure for PD, and I think most people on this group are aware of that. If medication made you sick and you decided not to take it, fine. Medication does not work for everyone, but it can help a high percentage of PD sufferers. And, by "help" I don’t mean "cure." There is not some battle on ASAP between people who advocate medication without therapy vs. people who use therapy but scorn medication. Rather, there are people using medication *and* therapy, and people who use therapy alone. If one reads *all* of the posts on this group, it is easy to see which path to recovery is being "bashed" more. Cathleen
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get. Suzan, In light of the above statement, I cannot attempt a serious discussion with you, Suzan. While privacy cannot be an issue on a public support group, I think that you might consider respecting the other members of this group. Whatever you need to do to get through therapy is between you and your therapist. However, your attempt to validate your arguments with a professional’s opinion, formed without knowledge of the people in question, is more than a little discourteous. Cathleen [For the record, and not as a means of validating my own arguments, I began reading ASAP during the fall of 1994. I have lurked on and off since then, and I did miss the end of 1995 and early 1996. I'm saying this because I don't want anyone to be misled about my familiarity with the group, although as I said in earlier posts, I seem to have missed some of the major "flamewars." I consider myself a newbie because I only began regularly posting in March of this year.]
Hi Cathleen, Rob, Gary, Linda, and whoever else is on this thread. This lady is WADDA!! She has emailed me twice even though I asked her not to be in touch with me and has been quite awful. I am feeling VERY anxious about having this sort of person lurking or anywhere near me….thils is not paranoia….I’ll leave that to her. She is a lawyer and they just love to argue. She claims to me on the last email that people really like her posts and that I am paranoid. However if I am so paranoid then why did she email me " because I am tired of all the gang banging" or something like that. And why am I reading all these objections to her post. So who is REALLY neurotic here Susan?????? Here is your proof. You have not respected the group nor my wishes to LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE!! I am a newbie and you are REALLY turning me off. This is not court. You have proven your lack of integrity. You say you think the fighting and swiping is unnecessary and then call us "neurotic". This a very rational person we are dealing with here folks. Email me again and I’ll get my own lawyer and sue you for harrassment. Sorry folks but I’m having a panic attack….if this is what ASAP is about then I’m outta here!! I could sure use some support folks as this b—– has done a number on me and I’m not dealing with it too well. DON’T try to reason or argue with her….she thrives on it.
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I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get.
Suzan, In light of the above statement, I cannot attempt a serious discussion with you, Suzan. While privacy cannot be an issue on a public support group, I think that you might consider respecting the other members of this group. Whatever you need to do to get through therapy is between you and your therapist. However, your attempt to validate your arguments with a professional’s opinion, formed without knowledge of the people in question, is more than a little discourteous. Cathleen [For the record, and not as a means of validating my own arguments, I began reading ASAP during the fall of 1994. I have lurked on and off since then, and I did miss the end of 1995 and early 1996. I'm saying this because I don't want anyone to be misled about my familiarity with the group, although as I said in earlier posts, I seem to have missed some of the major "flamewars." I consider myself a newbie because I only began regularly posting in March of this year.]
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~~snip snip~~ Most of the people on meds have given up on therapy. The common response is that it takes too long.
hmmm, I’ve been on this newsgroup as long as you have, and I haven’t seen this "common response." I also question where you get the "fact" that *most* people on meds have given up on therapy. I think this is the type of generalization that Cathleen was referring to. : taking issue with Linda’s condemnation of all therapy, I think you : have misunderstood her reasons for doing so. I don’t think so. I’ve read too many of Linda’s posts to have misunderstood. She’s vehemently against therapy and anyone new to asap would get the wrong idea from her posts about therapy. found on this ng that many of the people want an immediate cure, a wave of a magic wand or a drink of some potion. Well, after over 15 years of panic anxiety, I can attest *there is no such thing*.
Well, I do think you’ve misunderstood me. For one, I’ve only mentioned twice my feelings about therapy, once in my recent post, once in my post about John’s broken leg. I am not "vehemently against therapy." I was in therapy for 15 years, that’s a far cry from wanting an immediate cure. Also, I’ve only taken less than .125 of Xanax 4 times total. Hardly someone looking for a magic wand. Like I said, I’ve been reading this ng for too long to know that many people gave up on anything but meds after a few weeks because everything else took too long.
After a few weeks? Many I know of here spent *years*, indeed decades trying, searching, finally realizing maybe there is something wrong with therapy, not them. There are some on this ng that appear to spend more time online than trying to get help.
Uh, I thought spending time here *is* trying to get help. It’s been about the most helpful thing I’ve found so far. Of course, there are some that work very hard at getting better. No, I don’t think if you’re on meds, you’re only looking for an immediate cure. If you read my posts, you’d see I recommend multiple avenues of support if you can do it. I just don’t advocate one or the other. I was responding to a post that was bashing therapy as a possibility.
I’m not saying it’s not a possibility, it could be helpful for some. It helped me in areas other than panic disorder. But, it also hurt me in just as many ways as it helped me in those areas. I’ve already explained myself. Many of the people on this ng are very angry (I understand this because I went through a very long period of anger too) but getting angry at others here is not appropriate. They snip and swipe at everyone that doesn’t agree with them, they put down every avenue of possibility out of more fear, they won’t try things, they don’t want to discuss religion because they’re atheists or gave up on G-d. Etc. I know neurotic when I read it. I’ve given some of the posts to my therapist. She agreed that some of the people here need more help than they are willing to get.
You sound a fair bit angry to me, Susan. Where do you get the notion that getting angry at others on here is not appropriate? We’re human, we have our disagreements, it’s inevitable. "They don’t want to discuss religion because they’re athiests"??? Gee, I wonder why not. Also, what your therapist has said proves a lot of my points about therapy. From a handful of written words she knows who needs to be in therapy and who doesn’t? I’ll bet she wouldn’t mind them coming in *her* office and paying *her*. I’m not talking about people like Gary who take them prn or just take the one’s they are supposed to. But when someone tells me he’s on 3, 4, 5 different meds and still has attacks, it seems to me that something is not quite right. Others on this group over the past year have admitted that they are addicted to their meds and are very afraid to stop. That’s just substituting one fear for another.
Oh, good, I guess that puts me in your "okay" category. Wheew! It’s a big, beautiful world out there and we only have it for a short period of time. DO SOMETHING!
Well, thank you for this statement. I came to this exact same conclusion and it’s the reason for my wanting to try meds. Suzan Herskowitz
Linda Strong
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Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through therapy? Mine are reaching utterly epidemic proportions at the moment and I can’t take any drugs to abait them and I’m having to just grin and bear them at the moment. I feel like shit! Are the increased PA’s during therapy a sign of something? Regards, Mal.
Hi Mal, Speaking from my experience only, when I was going through cognitive behavioral therapy, the first 6-7 weeks I felt like, as you say, shit ;o and my therapist attributed it to: 1) my spending much more time actually thinking about anxiety (like going around all day long saying positive thoughts, doing relaxation, breathing, etc.); and 2) having a heightened sense of anxiety because "gee, if this doesn’t work, then there must be something really bad wrong with me!!"… Other therapies I went through didn’t do much for my anxiety except for feeling extremely anxious before and during being there, and being very relieved upon leaving Hope this helps…and hang in there!! Alice
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<words snipped tos ave bandwidth Excluding one or the other because someone on a ng likes to trash therapy is not to your benefit. If I listened to everything I read here I’d be a very bitter, overmedicated, neurotic person who didn’t do anything to find out what is really going on with me (and very sick because I’d believe that I had to take meds and as I’ve posted, I’ve tried ‘em and the cure for me is worse than the symptom.) Flame away.
Why should you be flamed for stating an alternative point of view? The only objection might be if you’d said yours was the only way. My guess, FWIW, would be that if someone listened to everything they saw on this group they’d be remarkably well informed about the diversity of approaches to treatment and very well placed to make informed decisions. On the *other* hand, they might become a fanatically religious gardener with an ice cream problem, a major addiction to benzos, a belief that CB can cure anyone of anything and a strange obsession about space aliens… — Gary Cooper
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Although I feel that Susan gave some good advice about therapy in this post, I also feel a need to comment on some of her generalizations about this newsgroup. As medication appears to be a rather popular topic of discussion on this newsgroup, Susan must be ignoring a large number of posts. Many of the so-called "med posts" discuss far more than meds. They are filled with personal experiences, fears, and triumphs. To ignore these posts is to ignore a majority of people in this group. How, then, can Susan make these generalizations about us? I usually sit quietly through all the therapy bashing and since I ignore med posts, I rarely post at all. But now I feel I must. Well, here’s the first generalization: "all the therapy bashing." Since you don’t read the "med posts," you probably don’t realize that most of the people taking meds are not bashing therapy. Like Linda, many of them have tried various types of therapy with no success and only then turned to medication. Many of the people on medication are still in therapy and wouldn’t be able to be in therapy if it wasn’t for the medication. I have not seen many people advise someone *not* to go to therapy. I’ve seen people share personal experiences (like Linda) and comfort others with similar experiences. <snip Linda had a bad experience. Instead of trying with someone else, she feels it is easier to just condemn the entire practice. Linda said that she had tried different therapies for 15 years and that she, herself, has been educated as a therapist (6 years). While I can see your taking issue with Linda’s condemnation of all therapy, I think you have misunderstood her reasons for doing so. <snip I have found on this ng that many of the people want an immediate cure, a wave of a magic wand or a drink of some potion. Well, after over 15 years of panic anxiety, I can attest *there is no such thing*. <snip MANY of the people on this newsgroup want an immediate cure? That is completely unfair. Again, as you ignore so many of the posts, you really have no idea what you’re talking about here. I get the impression that you think anyone using meds is looking for an immediate cure. That opinion is absolutely laughable. After reading *all* the posts, writing to ASAP members on e-mail, and talking to people on IRC, I have come to know many people who are working their a**es off to get better every single damn day. <snip If I listened to everything I read here I’d be a very bitter, overmedicated, neurotic person who didn’t do anything to find out what is really going on with me (and very sick because I’d believe that I had to take meds and as I’ve posted, I’ve tried ‘em and the cure for me is worse than the symptom.) That is most definitely an ignorant, insulting thing to say. I am most perplexed as to why you couldn’t have just given Malcolm your advice without insulting this newsgroup. Again, I think your advice about therapy–finding the right therapist and sticking with it–is excellent. I just don’t understand the generalizations. It’s ridiculous, first of all, that you would misuse the word "neurotic" on a support group for panic and anxiety disorders. Are you aware of the meaning of the word? Secondly, you’ve implied that all people taking medication for their PD’s are overmedicated. It seems to me that most people have approached medication cautiously. Finally, you obviously haven’t tried to get to know anyone on this group if you can refer to its members as "bitter." Perhaps that’s another word you should look up in the dictionary when you’re checking out "neurotic." I agree that there is a problem if a person decides to take medication based *only* on what he or she has read in this newsgroup. However, it seems to me that most of the people in this group are reading books and other literature about PD as well as getting advice from psychiatrists, therapists, and/or doctors. This newsgroup is a place to vent, to seek comfort, to give and get advice–to sum up: a place to find support. And, now, I have to ask you what you mean by the statement: "The cure for me is worse than the symptom." What are you talking about? Did you think medications would cure you? I have yet to see someone on this newsgroup say that he or she thinks medication is a cure for panic disorder. There *is* no cure for PD, and I think most people on this group are aware of that. If medication made you sick and you decided not to take it, fine. Medication does not work for everyone, but it can help a high percentage of PD sufferers. And, by "help" I don’t mean "cure." There is not some battle on ASAP between people who advocate medication without therapy vs. people who use therapy but scorn medication. Rather, there are people using medication *and* therapy, and people who use therapy alone. If one reads *all* of the posts on this group, it is easy to see which path to recovery is being "bashed" more. Cathleen
Hi Cathleen, like me who have been trying to get the very same point across. I use meds and therapy and both keep me alive and kicking. I also had bad experiences with both different meds and different therapies. So ….I got rid of the bad therapists and I changed meds until my doctor found something that could balance out my GABA deficiecy so that I could gain something out of the therapy I was getting. It worked for me. Warm wishes, Annie
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Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through therapy? . . .
Yes, you are probably anxious either about being "found out" or finding out something you don’t like or it’s just inducing a kind of unreality feeling that is scaring you into panic because you are thinking about thinking. My $0.02. Gary
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Hi Mal., : Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through therapy? : Mine are reaching utterly epidemic proportions at the moment and I can’t take any : drugs to abait them and I’m having to just grin and bear them at the moment. I feel : like shit! : : Are the increased PA’s during therapy a sign of something?
I dont know what kiind of therapy you are getting but if you are experiencing an increase in panic attacks I would suggest you mention this to your therapist. I do cognitive therapy and most of the people I work with have a shrarp drop in the number of panic attacks they have soon after starting therapy.
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Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through therapy? Mine are reaching utterly epidemic proportions at the moment and I can’t take any drugs to abait them and I’m having to just grin and bear them at the moment. I feel like shit! Are the increased PA’s during therapy a sign of something? Regards, Mal.
Mal, First of all I wonder why you can’t take any drugs to abait the panic attacks. Second of all, this happened to me. I started having panic attacks, I went into therapy, they didn’t want me to mask the symptoms by taking medications. Then they went in and dug up all this crap from my childhood, while never teaching me coping skills to deal with the panic attacks and anxiety. In addition, they never once asked me how my nutrition was (I was eating 3 crackers a day due to a food phobia) or about exercise or anything else that would be helpful to me. It’s no secret on this newsgroup that I think therapy is a crock of shit. I went through all the training myself, and I can tell you, they *barely* even touch on panic disorder and agoraphobia. And even when they do, much of it is misinformation. Some therapy perhaps is good, I just never found in in 15 years of it, or 6 years of education. BTW, 7 years of it was CBT – not at all helpful to me either. Linda Strong
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Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through therapy? Mine are reaching utterly epidemic proportions at the moment and I can’t take any drugs to abait them and I’m having to just grin and bear them at the moment. I feel like shit! Are the increased PA’s during therapy a sign of something? Regards, Mal.
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*** I’m seeing my counselor today and I’m not looking forward to it either! don says… Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through t herapy? Mine are reaching utterly epidemic proportions at the moment and I can ‘t take any drugs to abait them and I’m having to just grin and bear them at the m oment. I feel like shit! Are the increased PA’s during therapy a sign of something? Regards, Mal.
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Hi Mal.,
: Anybody any info or thoughts on increased PA’s while going through therapy? : Mine are reaching utterly epidemic proportions at the moment and I can’t take any : drugs to abait them and I’m having to just grin and bear them at the moment. I feel : like shit! : : Are the increased PA’s during therapy a sign of something? Well, if you are involved in some sort of psychological therapy (ie. psychoanalysis, cognitive behavioral, etc.) then the increased PAs may be a good sign. You may be homing in on the source of your PD, and that is *very* useful information. Without knowing much else about your case, I cant say much more. Feel free to post more or e-mail me directly. Best Wishes, Arthur
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